Discussion regarding the entirety of the franchise in a general (meta) sense, including such aspects as: production, trends, merchandise, fan culture, and more.
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:In Movie 13, he was made stronger by Toe- ahem... I mean he trained and got stronger than them. In the JSAT, they just played around because there wasn't any danger. In BoG, the villain was stronger than even Vegetto, and Goku came & asked help to make him the Super Saiyan God.
Even if they weren't the best saviors, they are still stronger than him. His goal was to become the stronger in the universe, with only his sons above him. And he succeeded.
at the first part
In the JSAT he couldn't even let Gotenks do the job he was tasked with. In Battle of Gods he took his role back as he decided to become the savior even though he didn't like getting the power from everyone else. While Vegeta or Gohan probably wouldn't have a problem with it. I still understand why he got the SSJG form.
His goal was to have his sons take over as he couldn't protect the world forever. In a way he succeeded as he got them stronger than he is, but he failed as they wouldn't commit to there training and would basically cause what Gohan did in the Boo saga by not training. I like to think Goku took the role back because he now has life again. He wanted to get Oob because he couldn't count on his sons to train.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
Yeah the TIS(Toei Induced Stupidity) needs to stop. Gohan is stronger and was set up to be the strongest. Nuff said.
Vegeta: "Funny... I seem to recall Kakarot being fed the same information right before he transformed; the distinct look on your faces when he went Super Saiyan didn't exactly inspire confidence. One does not predict or calculate power like ours." Youtube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/ThePrinceOfSaiyajins My 3DS Friend Code:
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I never said he succeed in making them better saviors than Goku. In fact, I agree, since even when Gohan was the lead character, against Cell, Bojack, and Broli, Gohan would be dead if Goku hadn't encourage him (at least Goten & Trunks could kill Bio-Broli by themselves). But he did succeed in making them stronger than him.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
Rocketman wrote:Also they keep conveniently "forgetting" Gohan's Mystic powerup, probably because it'd break Goku over his knee.
Gohan did have the Ultimate power-up in the movie.
Not originally. All the promo stuff had him as a Super Saiyan.
Why does that matter? It's not like this movie is implying Goku is stronger. In fact Gohan did more to Beers by actually making him budge.
Vegeta: "Funny... I seem to recall Kakarot being fed the same information right before he transformed; the distinct look on your faces when he went Super Saiyan didn't exactly inspire confidence. One does not predict or calculate power like ours." Youtube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/ThePrinceOfSaiyajins My 3DS Friend Code:
2707-1669-7946
It sort of does. Bills defeating Goku is seen as a super huge deal, when in reality Gohan and Gotenks should both be able to finger flick Goku away, so such a feat shouldn't be impressive at all.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote:
Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.
Rocketman wrote:Also they keep conveniently "forgetting" Gohan's Mystic powerup, probably because it'd break Goku over his knee.
Gohan did have the Ultimate power-up in the movie.
Not originally. All the promo stuff had him as a Super Saiyan.
Officially, what we know is that Gohan was a Super Saiyan for promotional reasons, and that they were planning to edit Gohan into his Ultimate state. Now, if you don't believe them, then that's just your opinion, since there is no proof that they were lying. And even if they were lying, it doesn't matter. What matters is the final product, and in the final product, I can see Ultimate Gohan.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
RandomGuy96 wrote:It sort of does. Bills defeating Goku is seen as a super huge deal, when in reality Gohan and Gotenks should both be able to finger flick Goku away, so such a feat shouldn't be impressive at all.
Normally yes Kaio Sama is pretty adamant that Beers is to much for anyone. Goku being defeated just meant something more to Vegeta I guess. He also hasn't seen Ultimate Gohan's power, as far as I know.
Vegeta: "Funny... I seem to recall Kakarot being fed the same information right before he transformed; the distinct look on your faces when he went Super Saiyan didn't exactly inspire confidence. One does not predict or calculate power like ours." Youtube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/ThePrinceOfSaiyajins My 3DS Friend Code:
2707-1669-7946
RandomGuy96 wrote:It sort of does. Bills defeating Goku is seen as a super huge deal, when in reality Gohan and Gotenks should both be able to finger flick Goku away, so such a feat shouldn't be impressive at all.
Normally yes Kaio Sama is pretty adamant that Beers is to much for anyone. Goku being defeated just meant something more to Vegeta I guess. He also hasn't seen Ultimate Gohan's power, as far as I know.
Vegeta was aware of SSJ3 Goku (he complained Goku held back), its very likely he was aware of Mystic Gohan.
Rocketman wrote:"Shonen" basically means "stupid sentimental shit" anyway, so it's ok to be anti-shonen.
RandomGuy96 wrote:It sort of does. Bills defeating Goku is seen as a super huge deal, when in reality Gohan and Gotenks should both be able to finger flick Goku away, so such a feat shouldn't be impressive at all.
Normally yes Kaio Sama is pretty adamant that Beers is to much for anyone. Goku being defeated just meant something more to Vegeta I guess. He also hasn't seen Ultimate Gohan's power, as far as I know.
Vegeta was aware of SSJ3 Goku (he complained Goku held back), its very likely he was aware of Mystic Gohan.
How? He likely wouln't pay attention to the living realm after seeing SSJ3 Goku.
Vegeta: "Funny... I seem to recall Kakarot being fed the same information right before he transformed; the distinct look on your faces when he went Super Saiyan didn't exactly inspire confidence. One does not predict or calculate power like ours." Youtube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/ThePrinceOfSaiyajins My 3DS Friend Code:
2707-1669-7946
RandomGuy96 wrote:It sort of does. Bills defeating Goku is seen as a super huge deal, when in reality Gohan and Gotenks should both be able to finger flick Goku away, so such a feat shouldn't be impressive at all.
The movie promotional stuff stated that Gohan possessed power greater than that of a pure Saiyan, so he is stronger than Goku & Vegeta.
And as for Gohan & Gotenks finger flicking Goku... Vegeta's reaction proves that this isn't true.
TheMightyOzaru wrote:How? He likely wouln't pay attention to the living realm after seeing SSJ3 Goku.
He also knew about Fusion, and Pure Evil Boo. Vegeta saw everything.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
I disagree there. Gohan and Gotenks would definitely finger-flick Goku.
Vegeta: "Funny... I seem to recall Kakarot being fed the same information right before he transformed; the distinct look on your faces when he went Super Saiyan didn't exactly inspire confidence. One does not predict or calculate power like ours." Youtube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/ThePrinceOfSaiyajins My 3DS Friend Code:
2707-1669-7946
TheMightyOzaru wrote:I disagree there. Gohan and Gotenks would definitely finger-flick Goku.
Explain?
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
TheMightyOzaru wrote:I disagree there. Gohan and Gotenks would definitely finger-flick Goku.
Explain?
Gohan is about 10x stronger than Goku IMO. a 2x difference is already practically a finger-flick.
Last edited by TheMightyOzaru on Sat Jun 01, 2013 4:37 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Vegeta: "Funny... I seem to recall Kakarot being fed the same information right before he transformed; the distinct look on your faces when he went Super Saiyan didn't exactly inspire confidence. One does not predict or calculate power like ours." Youtube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/ThePrinceOfSaiyajins My 3DS Friend Code:
2707-1669-7946
TheMightyOzaru wrote:Gohan is about 10x stronger than Goku IMO. a 2x difference is already practically a finger-flick.
How did you conclude that a x2 difference is a finger-flick? Why has it never happened in the series until Beers vs SS3 Goku? Why did Vegetto had to punch Boo?
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
TheMightyOzaru wrote:Gohan is about 10x stronger than Goku IMO. a 2x difference is already practically a finger-flick.
How did you conclude that a x2 difference is a finger-flick? Why has it never happened in the series until Beers vs SS3 Goku? Why did Vegetto had to punch Boo?
Buu is kinda, you know, nigh indestructible. That might be why. a 2x difference has always shown to be straight pwnage throughout the series, perhaps not quite a finger-flick at 2x but it's still a massive beatdown.
Last edited by TheMightyOzaru on Sat Jun 01, 2013 4:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Vegeta: "Funny... I seem to recall Kakarot being fed the same information right before he transformed; the distinct look on your faces when he went Super Saiyan didn't exactly inspire confidence. One does not predict or calculate power like ours." Youtube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/ThePrinceOfSaiyajins My 3DS Friend Code:
2707-1669-7946
I didn't say why Vegetto didn't kill Boo with a finger-flick, but anyway, forget Vegetto vs Boo... The Freeza (60.000.000) vs Goku (3.000.000) wasn't a small fight, and Goku got strong hits from Freeza many times. Not finger hits. Punches, kicks, elbows, etc. Yet Goku could still stand up. So, yeah, I doubt that fingers can do anything to an opponent x20 times weaker, let alone x10 or x2. Hell, not even x50 IMO. I think that to cause someone damage with his fingers there must be a very, very, very huge gap in their powers, beyond dozens.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
Hard for me to say that I hate the movie. I think I more resent that so many people dig it, but those are the same people who bash GT. The movie is guilty of all the things GT did.
People often talk about GT = Goku time. This movie turns him into Jesus.
The new SSJ form looks nothing like any of the other designs (and the skinniness should looks silly to me). People criticize SSJ4 almost seeming to be mystical. Well I can't think of anything more mystical than SSJG
Needing 6 saiya power or whatever to turn Goku into a deity. I swear to you, the same thing pretty much happens in Toyble's comic. If anyone else had wrote that in, it'd be dismissed as fanwank.
And various other things.
So yea, I can't say that I dislike it. It seems like a very entertaining movie. I just resent the fact that people are holding it in such high regard because of Toriyama's involvement.