At which point is KK x10 activated?

[freezamite]

I think that AT LEAST this is a thing that can be discussed without anyone trolling the thread, as it seems rather important to me when talking about DB.
This is what I think (from the locked thread) regarding this:
3. Goku fought against Freezer using KKx10 SINCE THE BEGINNING OF THE MATCH. This could be another discussion thread by itself, but I will try to settle this in this first post.
Firstly, we know about the KK being in use through Kaito and not because Goku or anyone else notices its sudden activation. A KK x10 is a HUGE increase that should at least have an effect in-battle, and we see none of that. Of course, and since KK x10 has not an aura drawn like the other KK, there could be some confusion about this, but there are only two spots where KKx10 could be activated if it had an aura and if it was activated in the middle of the fight:
1st: Chapter 311 page 6

Why it's impossible for the KKx10 to be activated at this point?
Simply because Freezer hasn't powered up a bit compared to when the fight started, and it's precisely at this point where he starts to fight without hands.
To put it in other words: How is it possible that Goku and Freezer fought evenly until that point, Goku suddenly multiplies his strength by 10, and Freezer is still able not only to defend himself as he had planed before Goku's power up but even do it without using his hands?
It simply isn't possible unless we assume a huge mistake from the author's part, which can only be assumed when another explanation is simply not possible. This is not the case as it's obvious from the fact that I'm already giving an alternative explanation to this.

2nd: Chapter 312 page 10

Why it's impossible for the KKx10 to be activated at this point?
Similarly to the other case, but for the opposite reason. At this point Freezer had already powered up, and his hits were enough to totally out-match Goku's KKx10. By that point, Goku had also received some attacks from Freezer, and Freezer didn't know anything about any KK. Considering this, Freezer's hits were directed towards the same enemy (from Freezer's perception) and to have the effect we see on the manga, and considering the 10% rule which has been demonstrated with numbers, Goku would have died at the first hit with a difference that big in power.
So, this time, it's the fact that Goku can survive through Chapter 312 pages 6 to 9 that completely invalidates the possibility of KKx10 being activated at page 10.
That and the fact that the KK aura has always whitewashed eyes for Goku, and this is not the case for this concrete page.

Now, there were some points made against this theory:

The topic was locked before you had a chance to comment on it, but Piccolo does comment about Goku's strength increasing after Freeza started using 50% of his full power but before Goku attempted the 20x Kaiou-ken.

Chapter: 312 (DBZ 118), P13.2
Context: as Freeza beats up on Goku
Piccolo: “Th-this is bad…There’s too much of a gap between the power they were hiding…”

Now obviously Piccolo isn't aware of Freeza only being at half strength or Goku still having the 20x Kaiou-ken in reserve, but this statement indicates that both of them powered up a good deal from earlier when they were "warming up". If Goku was using the 10x Kaiou-ken from the get go as you believe, then why would Piccolo indicate that Goku's power has risen?

I read that, and it was as you say locked before I could answer to it.
Firstly, and considering how much of an impact a 10% increase in energy makes, I don't think that his "hidden energy" was the KKx10, but rather that he was fighting with KKx10 but without using all his energy. Freezer could perfectly be at 2.500.000 and goku fighting with 250.000 times 10 instead of 300.000 times 10.

But again, I don't think a 10x increase in the circumstances is supposedly done, it's coherent with what happens for the reasons I give. The points where those power ups could happen (an aura resembling the one of the KK appears) have really big problems of coherence to me with the action that takes place.

The last reply regarding this topic is that one made by Darkprince410 which of course I'm going to reply:

That doesn't work, since everything we've seen before indicates that Kaiou-ken goes off the maximum battle power of the user, and not any suppressed strength they've got.

Well, that's not exactly true. When Goku uses the KaiohKen against Ginew, it uses it while releasing his suppressed power. Of course, he does it this way because he want's to impress Ginew, but when KK is activated it starts at 90.000 (which means that Goku was at 45.000) and SLOWLY (I think we can agree that KK's effect is instantaneous, so in order for the energy to rise that slow it had to be Goku the one manipulating it's energy while using KK) increasing it until it reached the point of 180.000
That's a proof that something like this not only could be possible, but in fact was clearly done before the match against Freezer. This scene can be found at chapters 284-285 of the manga.

As for you having problems with the instances where Goku would be using 10x Kaiou-ken with the aura (though I personally don't find them to be problems at all), remember that Freeza wasn't wanting to kill him, that he could gauge just by how he was moving and the blows he was trying to throw just how much weaker he was getting (and obviously would be able to compensate) and that Goku has been shown time and again to be able to continue fighting even after his body has been bruised, battered, and practically destroyed in the past, thanks to his incredible reserves of stamina. Him being able to take a hit when not in Kaiou-ken 10x with Freeza at 50% full power wouldn't be out of character, given both Freeza not wanting to quickly kill him and Goku's ability to take hits.

I'm perfectly conscious that Goku has some great resistance to hits and that Freezer wasn't trying to kill him, but I think that there is still a problem: Freezer didn't know anything about the KK.
You say that this could be compensated by the fact that Freezer was "gauging" the situation by how he was moving, in which case this invalidates the use of KK at chapter 311 because at that point both Freezer and Goku were more or less equal in terms of ki used, and a sudden increase like this would've been impossible to counter by Freezer because:
1. Everything related to the physical abilities of a character (strength, defence, reaction speed, speed, etc. ) scales proportionally with the amount of Ki used.
That means that if Freezer is fighting at 500.000 he is as strong as someone with a power of 500.000, and he will react to things exactly like someone with that power would do.
A sudden increase to KKx10 while Freezer was still not powered up would've been deadly.

2. Even if Freezer could react to the sudden KK activation, he wouldn't be able to rise his power fast enough to fight. Freezer is not very good at controlling it's energy, in fact, he even has to transform in order to control it perfectly. He also needed a lot of time (compared to what's normal) to rise to that 50% figure, and even more to reach his 100% of strength.

That lets us with the scene at chapter 312 being the only possible option. Since Freezer powers up first, it could be possible for him to react to Goku, but there are three things that bother me regarding that:
1. Goku attacks Freezer from behind. It's true that Freezer was expecting him, but he was expecting him with 10 times less strength if KKx10 was activated then. We know that Freezer relies almost completely on what he can see and this is how Goku tricks him with the energy attacks, or even how Piccolo could approach him from behind and connect that kick to his head even when he was much weaker than KKx10 Goku and Freezer was also at 50%.
I'm not saying that this is a definite reason or anything, but it would be a bit out of character that someone that has always been unable to react to sudden changes or to surprise attacks now can not only react to them but also to adjust the strength of his hits in such a delicate and precise manner.

2. When Cell kills Piccolo-Kami, he kills him almost without wanting to do so. Cell was much, much better than Freezer at controlling his strength, but even then he broke Piccolo's neck like it was nothing, and the difference was MUCH, MUCH lower than 10x.

3. Even if it's Goku, and even when he has a good resistance to hits, we see him losing consciousness to attacks that should in theory be much weaker proportionally. I mean, a 10x difference in power is 100 times the difference there was between Vegeta and Dodoria or between Gohan and Raditz.
I know that Freezer was being delicate trying not to kill him, but one thing is being delicate and another one being so soft as to not kill even a fly. I mean, what was the difference between Freezer and Vegeta, it wasn't even close to this 10x and Vegeta is even more resistant to hits than Goku, and it ended how it ended.

Those 3 points, coupled by the fact that the KK can be used while suppressing one's own ki, makes me think that this was what really happened in that fight.

That and the fact that we know thanks to Cell and the people he absorbed the range of energy units that the z-fighters had during the android saga.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Going by the Colored Edition of the manga, Goku isn't using Kaio-ken in the 1st page you posted, but started using it in the 2nd page you posted it. So, I go by that.

[freezamite]

Going by the Colored Edition of the manga, Goku isn't using Kaio-ken in the 1st page you posted, but started using it in the 2nd page you posted it. So, I go by that.

Who "colored" that version of the manga? It could be something interesting to know. If this is a product like the anime (who also colorates this as if KK was activated there) then it's not that much relevant.
I mean, if you look at Goku's eye in that second page, his eyes are completely black, which isn't possible if it was a KK aura.

[Darkprince410]

The last reply regarding this topic is that one made by Darkprince410 which of course I'm going to reply:

Well, that's not exactly true. When Goku uses the KaiohKen against Ginew, it uses it while releasing his suppressed power. Of course, he does it this way because he want's to impress Ginew, but when KK is activated it starts at 90.000 (which means that Goku was at 45.000) and SLOWLY (I think we can agree that KK's effect is instantaneous, so in order for the energy to rise that slow it had to be Goku the one manipulating it's energy while using KK) increasing it until it reached the point of 180.000
That's a proof that something like this not only could be possible, but in fact was clearly done before the match against Freezer. This scene can be found at chapters 284-285 of the manga.

That's not what it meant. It started at 90,000 because that was Goku's maximum. It wasn't a matter of Goku being suppressed battle power wise and then increasing his base to in turn increase the power being output by Kaiou-ken. In fact, the reverse seems to be the case. It shot him right up to his maximum in base, then proceeded to double his output to 180,000.

2. Even if Freezer could react to the sudden KK activation, he wouldn't be able to rise his power fast enough to fight. Freezer is not very good at controlling it's energy, in fact, he even has to transform in order to control it perfectly. He also needed a lot of time (compared to what's normal) to rise to that 50% figure, and even more to reach his 100% of strength.

That's not exactly true. The closer he gets to 100 sure, but from what we saw of Freeza between his initial strength and going up to 70%, he's able to go to those quickly if he wants. However, I don't feel that he was fluctuating his strength so much as just pulling his punches. Think of it like how #18 was trying to pull back her punches during the Buu Saga Budokai when she was using the punch machine. Her physical strength wasn't any different than its maximum (because there's no indication that she can actually suppress her strength), but she was able to pull her punches back to where she wasn't outright breaking the machine.

In the same regard, Freeza, not wanting to kill Goku, would be able to pull his blows in order to not outright kill him in a single blow. He could tell Goku was weakening considerably just by the combination of Goku's actions and just taking into account the blows he was inflicting, so he'd be able to gauge that Goku's strength was compromised drastically. It'd be the same as playing catch with someone when they're healthy, and then playing catch with them when they're feeling ill or otherwise not at full strength. You don't have the ability to sense their strength (obviously) but by gauging how much slower their throws might be, how slow they move, and just their overall appearance, you'd be able to gauge pretty well that they're nowhere near top form and be able to compensate.

Going by the Colored Edition of the manga, Goku isn't using Kaio-ken in the 1st page you posted, but started using it in the 2nd page you posted it. So, I go by that.

Who "colored" that version of the manga? It could be something interesting to know. If this is a product like the anime (who also colorates this as if KK was activated there) then it's not that much relevant.
I mean, if you look at Goku's eye in that second page, his eyes are completely black, which isn't possible if it was a KK aura.

The manga was released at a later date with many pages colored.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Going by the Colored Edition of the manga, Goku isn't using Kaio-ken in the 1st page you posted, but started using it in the 2nd page you posted it. So, I go by that.

Who "colored" that version of the manga? It could be something interesting to know. If this is a product like the anime (who also colorates this as if KK was activated there) then it's not that much relevant.
I mean, if you look at Goku's eye in that second page, his eyes are completely black, which isn't possible if it was a KK aura.

It's not Toriyama who colored it, so you don't have to take it as a fact if you go exclusively by Toriyama. But I don't care, so I take it as a fact for me.

[freezamite]

That's not what it meant. It started at 90,000 because that was Goku's maximum. It wasn't a matter of Goku being suppressed battle power wise and then increasing his base to in turn increase the power being output by Kaiou-ken. In fact, the reverse seems to be the case. It shot him right up to his maximum in base, then proceeded to double his output to 180,000.

It eventually reached 180,000, because that was Goku's maximum strength with KK activated. That being said:
We've seen how KK works in a lot of fights, before and after this one, and the increase in power is always sudden. From the moment KK is activated, the power is doubled instantly.

But here it starts at 90.000 and progressively increases until 180.000. The KK isn't something that has to be charged, it has never been. It's instantaneous, this is how Goku uses it, so in order for it to "charge", it had to be Goku the one charging and not the KK.

Going by the Colored Edition of the manga, Goku isn't using Kaio-ken in the 1st page you posted, but started using it in the 2nd page you posted it. So, I go by that.

Who "colored" that version of the manga? It could be something interesting to know. If this is a product like the anime (who also colorates this as if KK was activated there) then it's not that much relevant.
I mean, if you look at Goku's eye in that second page, his eyes are completely black, which isn't possible if it was a KK aura.

Toriyama released a later version of the manga that had many colored versions of pages that weren't colorized before.

Well, I have the ultimate edition of the manga which has a lot of pages colored, but this chapter is not one of them. I remember as a kid how there were Dragon Ball mangas colored by the distributors in order to increase the sales.
The question is, was that "colored" manga with all the chapters in color, colored by Toriyama himself?

[Darkprince410]

Going by the Colored Edition of the manga, Goku isn't using Kaio-ken in the 1st page you posted, but started using it in the 2nd page you posted it. So, I go by that.

Who "colored" that version of the manga? It could be something interesting to know. If this is a product like the anime (who also colorates this as if KK was activated there) then it's not that much relevant.
I mean, if you look at Goku's eye in that second page, his eyes are completely black, which isn't possible if it was a KK aura.

It's not Toriyama who colored it, so you don't have to take it as a fact if you go exclusively by Toriyama. But I don't care, so I take it as a fact for me.

I'd say that even if he didn't personally color it, he undoubtedly gave guidelines to them as far as how they should be colored. Either way, that'd still be an official indicator (to me anyway) that Goku wasn't using Kaiou-ken prior to Freeza being at 50%.

That's not what it meant. It started at 90,000 because that was Goku's maximum. It wasn't a matter of Goku being suppressed battle power wise and then increasing his base to in turn increase the power being output by Kaiou-ken. In fact, the reverse seems to be the case. It shot him right up to his maximum in base, then proceeded to double his output to 180,000.

It eventually reached 180,000, because that was Goku's maximum strength with KK activated. That being said:
We've seen how KK works in a lot of fights, before and after this one, and the increase in power is always sudden. From the moment KK is activated, the power is doubled instantly.

But here it starts at 90.000 and progressively increases until 180.000. The KK isn't something that has to be charged, it has never been. It's instantaneous, this is how Goku uses it, so in order for it to "charge", it had to be Goku the one charging and not the KK.

No it isn't always sudden. Look at Goku when he used the Kaiou-ken 3x against Vegeta for the first time. He was still at 8,000 in his base form with no indication that he was holding back, but Bulma was able to read off the numbers of his battle power increase up until the scouter exploded. If it was always a sudden boost, then she shouldn't have had time to read it and it should have just exploded instantly.

[freezamite]

That's not what it meant. It started at 90,000 because that was Goku's maximum. It wasn't a matter of Goku being suppressed battle power wise and then increasing his base to in turn increase the power being output by Kaiou-ken. In fact, the reverse seems to be the case. It shot him right up to his maximum in base, then proceeded to double his output to 180,000.

It eventually reached 180,000, because that was Goku's maximum strength with KK activated. That being said:
We've seen how KK works in a lot of fights, before and after this one, and the increase in power is always sudden. From the moment KK is activated, the power is doubled instantly.

But here it starts at 90.000 and progressively increases until 180.000. The KK isn't something that has to be charged, it has never been. It's instantaneous, this is how Goku uses it, so in order for it to "charge", it had to be Goku the one charging and not the KK.

No it isn't always sudden. Look at Goku when he used the Kaiou-ken 3x against Vegeta for the first time. He was still at 8,000 in his base form with no indication that he was holding back, but Bulma was able to read off the numbers of his battle power increase up until the scouter exploded. If it was always a sudden boost, then she shouldn't have had time to read it and it should have just exploded instantly.

Well, you're right here. I always attributed that to the fact that Goku didn't dominate the KKx3 completely at that point, thus making him unable to perform it with speed (although KKx4 was performed instantaneously and it left Goku completely harmed).
But KKx2 was instantaneous enough, in that same fight, to dodge an attack that had already been launched against him.
So, why would be KKx2 weaker on Namek than it was on Earth?

I think that the key here is the time pressure. Goku knew that the KKx3 was too much for him, and considering that Vegeta was patiently waiting he could in order to make the technique less aggressive to the body, to start it with a lowered energy level in order to dominate it more, an then progress until its maximum slowly.
When he used KKx4, or before when he used KKx2 in order to dodge an attack, he had an urge to do that and thus the KK was done directly from the maximum energy he had.

Another possibility is that Goku simply increased the KK fold at mid fight. He was fighting using KKx8 or x9 and he reserved the KKx10 as his triumph, and used it when Freezer upped to his 50%.
But resisting a punch from someone 10x stronger that couldn't control his strength that well when we have seen that with a much smaller difference someone like Cell (he controlled his energy perfectly) killed Piccolo almost without wanting to do so...

The problem I have with the 10x increase at mid fight is:
1. It would require a lot of effort and perception ability for Freezer part to act properly.
2. The KK aura is drawn with black eyes, a first and last on the series.
3. It trounces the power scale to a point where data given on the manga has to be considered a mistake made by the author. I mean, we all know how many people were absorbed by Cell, and how many energy could be absorbed from those people. With a 10x sudden increase this information loses any sense it could have, which in fact is not how a manga has to be analized.
I mean, we know that Cell gathered between 0.75 and 1.5 million from the people he absorbed, and that was enough to make a huge difference. How can you explain the power-scale considering that fact, and still make an increase in strength like this to be that much significant?

[Darkprince410]

Well, you're right here. I always attributed that to the fact that Goku didn't dominate the KKx3 completely at that point, thus making him unable to perform it with speed (although KKx4 was performed instantaneously and it left Goku completely harmed).
But KKx2 was instantaneous enough, in that same fight, to dodge an attack that had already been launched against him.
So, why would be KKx2 weaker on Namek than it was on Earth?

I think that the key here is the time pressure. Goku knew that the KKx3 was too much for him, and considering that Vegeta was patiently waiting he could in order to make the technique less aggressive to the body, to start it with a lowered energy level in order to dominate it more, an then progress until its maximum slowly.
When he used KKx4, or before when he used KKx2 in order to dodge an attack, he had an urge to do that and thus the KK was done directly from the maximum energy he had.

Another possibility is that Goku simply increased the KK fold at mid fight. He was fighting using KKx8 or x9 and he reserved the KKx10 as his triumph, and used it when Freezer upped to his 50%.
But resisting a punch from someone 10x stronger that couldn't control his strength that well when we have seen that with a much smaller difference someone like Cell (he controlled his energy perfectly) killed Piccolo almost without wanting to do so...

The problem I have with the 10x increase at mid fight is:
1. It would require a lot of effort and perception ability for Freezer part to act properly.
2. The KK aura is drawn with black eyes, a first and last on the series.
3. It trounces the power scale to a point where data given on the manga has to be considered a mistake made by the author. I mean, we all know how many people were absorbed by Cell, and how many energy could be absorbed from those people. With a 10x sudden increase this information loses any sense it could have, which in fact is not how a manga has to be analized.
I mean, we know that Cell gathered between 0.75 and 1.5 million from the people he absorbed, and that was enough to make a huge difference. How can you explain the power-scale considering that fact, and still make an increase in strength like this to be that much significant?

Or it could be a situation of Goku trying to showboat a bit in order to convince Ginyu to give up. Rather than instantly jump to 180,000 even though it's very possible for him to, he slowed his increase to scare Ginyu a bit. Either that or it's possible that scouters process the increases far slower than the increases actual occur.

As I mentioned above, I don't see where you believe that Freeza can't control his strength well. Given that he can increase his battle power by exact percentages indicates pretty clearly to me that he can control his strength quite well up to certain percentages, and only has a hard time when he gets closer to 100%, which is a level he rarely ever uses because of how much strain it puts on his body. He was able to jump to 50 and 70% of his full strength near instantly with no sign of strain or stress, and logically he should be able to pull his punches when he wants. Given this and that we know for certain that he didn't want to kill Goku quickly, I can safely see how he could pull his punches to not outright kill Goku with them.

In your theory of Goku at 300,000 and Freeza at 6,000,000, are you believing that Goku was maintaining the Kaiou-ken 10x the entire time that Freeza was beating on him? Because otherwise it's still the exact same percentage difference between the two. The actual "units" would be higher in the 3,000,000/60,000,000 scenario, but as far as the ratio between the two, it'd still be Goku getting beat around by someone twenty times more powerful than he is, so the problems that you have with Freeza's max being at 120,000,000 would still be a problem with your version of the events as well.

As for Cell, you're assuming that his absorption works simply by pure addition, when there's, in truth, no indication as to how it works. It might work by simple addition and it might be something else. Since we don't know, we can't assume that for certain. Even if it was simple addition, other than hundreds of thousands of people, I don't believe a stated number was given as to how many people he absorbed. If he absorbed nearly a million people (which would still fall into the hundreds of thousands), with an average battle power of 5, you're looking at an increase of nearly 5,000,000, which could close the gap between him and the fatigued Piccolo. And that's still just assuming it's simple addition. If it's some other process, then the increase could be far, far more substantial.

[hleV]

I'd say that even if he didn't personally color it, he undoubtedly gave guidelines to them as far as how they should be colored.

I'm pretty sure he didn't.

[freezamite]

Or it could be a situation of Goku trying to showboat a bit in order to convince Ginyu to give up. Rather than instantly jump to 180,000 even though it's very possible for him to, he slowed his increase to scare Ginyu a bit. Either that or it's possible that scouters process the increases far slower than the increases actual occur.

Yes, that's what I mean. In order to scare Ginyu he slowed the increase, but as far as we know, there's no lower KK than x2. So in order to slow down the increase in energy, it's a possibility that he could increase his energy while performing KK.
Regarding the scoutter processing the increases slower than the increases actual occur... well we've never seen a situation where we knew for certain that the character had already powered up and the scoutter was still catching behind.
In that case Goku is gathering power while Ginyu is reading the increasing power levels, and it only stops when Goku also relaxes his stance.

In other cases, for example the fight between Nail and Freezer where the scoutter is activated after the Power up, it instantly measures Nail's power at 42.000 so there's no reason to think that the scoutter has a delay when it comes to measuring power.

As I mentioned above, I don't see where you believe that Freeza can't control his strength well. Given that he can increase his battle power by exact percentages indicates pretty clearly to me that he can control his strength quite well up to certain percentages, and only has a hard time when he gets closer to 100%, which is a level he rarely ever uses because of how much strain it puts on his body. He was able to jump to 50 and 70% of his full strength near instantly with no sign of strain or stress, and logically he should be able to pull his punches when he wants. Given this and that we know for certain that he didn't want to kill Goku quickly, I can safely see how he could pull his punches to not outright kill Goku with them.

Freezer was approximating the power he used, it's not that he can't control well his power if he doesn't go extremely high or extremely low, it's that even someone like Cell who was much better at this thanks to having Goku's cells killed Piccolo without even wanting to do so, and the difference was much smaller.

In your theory of Goku at 300,000 and Freeza at 6,000,000, are you believing that Goku was maintaining the Kaiou-ken 10x the entire time that Freeza was beating on him? Because otherwise it's still the exact same percentage difference between the two. The actual "units" would be higher in the 3,000,000/60,000,000 scenario, but as far as the ratio between the two, it'd still be Goku getting beat around by someone twenty times more powerful than he is, so the problems that you have with Freeza's max being at 120,000,000 would still be a problem with your version of the events as well.

Yes, of course. In my opinion KKx10 was always used, from the very beginning to the point when Goku was gathering the GenkiDama.

As for Cell, you're assuming that his absorption works simply by pure addition, when there's, in truth, no indication as to how it works. It might work by simple addition and it might be something else. Since we don't know, we can't assume that for certain. Even if it was simple addition, other than hundreds of thousands of people, I don't believe a stated number was given as to how many people he absorbed.

In fact, if there was something like this it should have to be explained, I mean, to absorb means this:
1. To take (something) in through or as through pores or interstices.
You could say that Toriyama made a mistake and that he had forgotten to explain that Cell not only absorbs energy, but also multiplies it, but then at chapter 364, page 1, Piccolo says:
- Even accounting for the energy in that one arm, I'm still stronger than you.
If it isn't working by pure addition, then this sentence has no sense.

To assume that there is some sort of multiplayer is to assume a bad writing for Toriyama's part, because something like this is pretty relevant, even more in this situation where Piccolo's energy was also drained.

If he absorbed nearly a million people (which would still fall into the hundreds of thousands), with an average battle power of 5, you're looking at an increase of nearly 5,000,000, which could close the gap between him and the fatigued Piccolo.

Nearly a million mathematically falls into the hundreds of thousands, but it's a weird way to express it when you're talking naturally. I mean, if there are 940.000 people gathered in a certain place, "hundreds of thousands" wouldn't be a natural way to express it.
On the other hand, you grab an average of 5 for the humans, when those 5 units were an adult male that worked as a farmer, thus having a better physical condition than most of the sedentary people.
Of course there can be some fighters who would surpass those units, but Cell didn't discriminate when it attacked a city, he absorbed kids, old people, ill people, women, men that worked on offices... if Cell had gone from gymn to gymn absorbing only trained people it would be different, but that wasn't the case.

But even if it's those high 5.000.000, I encourage to power scale them in a way they have some sense at that point of the series, going by YOUR numbers. I mean, there are two points where we disagree here that are indispensable to reach those numbers at this part of the story:
1. That 10x increase ad mid-fight and without any warning.
2. The fact that Freezer loses a ton of energy due to it being "badly injured" by the Genkidama.

Both have to be indispensable conditions unless we assume that Cell multiplied the strength he absorbed, but that's like saying that Goku was SSJ2 during the Cell games but he lied in order to make his son fight. It's an assumption made that of course won't contradict the manga directly other than in certain smaller phrases here and there, but it's not based on anything that has been said on the manga by anyone.

[Darkprince410]

1) The point you and I are differing on though is that you believe he started at 45,000 and increased his base while maintaining the same level of Kaiou-ken, while I believe that he shot up to 90,000 and the increase further from there was his controlled increase of how much power he was letting the Kaiou-ken increase, that he was just controlling how quickly he doubled his battle power.

As for the point with Nail, he had already powered up to his maximum for several seconds before Freeza read off his strength, whereas with Goku during the two instances we've mentioned, he was being read off while in the process of him powering up. There's also the case of Vegeta when he powered up to fight Kiwi, that even though he was already at full power for a few seconds before the scouter blew up, Zarbon's scouter still read Vegeta's battle power below the 24,000 he was at during that moment, indicating that it was in the process of reading his increase.

2) Well first, he went at a weakened and stamina-drained Piccolo while at full strength, and even if he didn't really intend to dispatch him so easily (the way he worded it was almost in a joking manner, like he didn't really care whether or not he used his full strength on him or not), he wasn't really pulling any punches when he did. If anything, it's more an indication of Piccolo's condition than Cell. Freeza though was intentionally trying to avoid killing Goku to keep him suffering for longer, so in that regard it's clear that he was pulling his punches.

3) So you're okay with Freeza at 6,000,000 pummeling Goku when he's at 300,000, but you think that it doesn't make sense for Goku at 3,000,000 to survive blows from Freeza while he's at 60,000,000?

4) I know what absorption means, but absorbing doesn't instantly mean that it's just added. It simply means the integration of something into something else, but that doesn't mean it's simple absorption. Likewise, Piccolo's comment doesn't mean that it's simply addition either, partially because it could mean two different things. One, it could simply be a matter of Piccolo seeing how much strength Cell gained from absorbing the ki in his arm, and then judging that Cell still wasn't near strong enough to beat him, OR that Piccolo, even having lost all the ki that was in his arm, is still more than a match for Cell. The statement isn't a concrete one as far as being about Cell's increase.

Depending on metabolisms, living organisms for example can generate more energy than the amount of fuel they take in, and the process might be the exact same with Cell. We simply don't know, so assuming it's a simple matter of "Oh, he just absorbed that guy who had a battle power of 5, so he's now 5 units stronger" isn't very sound.

5) The farmer was also rather overweight and showed signs of exhaustion before Raditz arrived. Because of that, I feel that 5 is a good indicator of the average human battle power, and not just one of a fit individual.

I know I've seen the number 600,000 as some ballpark figure for how many he absorbed, though I do recall "at least" was mentioned as well, so you're still looking at an average of about an increase of 3,000,000 if it is, again, just purely addition.

As for scaling it, I can't just because there's too little information to go on (See #4 for why). We don't know how Cell's absorption works, nor do we know how many he absorbed, so there's no way of knowing for certain.

I don't get what you mean by a 10x increase mid-fight without any warning? We know that Piccolo noticed an increase in Goku's strength, so there's evidence to support that at least some increase in his strength was noticed, and as far as Freeza not really noticing/caring too much about it, that's simply because Freeza was still far too high for him. It'd be like throwing a golf ball at a solid brick wall, and then throwing a bowling ball at the same wall. If the wall is sturdy enough, it's not going to show any sign of additional damage from the bowling ball impact over the golf ball impact, despite the bowling ball having consierably more mass and, as a result, far more kinetic energy.

Thinking about it though, what if the 60,000,000 was his battle power AFTER he took the damage from the Genki Dama? Going by either of our numbers, Goku using the 20x Kaiou-ken should have done far more damage to Freeza if Freeza were at 60,000,000 (6,000,000) for you, because that'd put them dead even. Yet Freeza took one punch mainly by surprise, and then stopped Goku's Kamehameha with one hand with only a few minor burns, which shouldn't have been possible if they were even. Freeza could have been 70-80,000,00 or so normally, and the damage he took from the Genki Dama dropped him down to 60,000,000, because it wasn't a matter of being badly damaged, because he really wasn't. He was just surprised that he was damaged as much as he was.

That would explain the relatively superficial damage that Freeza took (really, his tail getting blown off was the worst that happened to him) and the battle power decrease as a result of the damage he took, while at the same time explaining why Goku wasn't able to do any appreciable damage despite numbers saying that he should be even with him at the time of his attack.

[TheMightyOzaru]

He uses Kaioken whenever he's red... As far as the manga goes, it's sorta hard to tell for some, but it's obvious he only starts using after Freeza shows off his 50% power since Piccolo regards that Goku was hiding a ton of power shortly after Freeza's power up. The whole argument that Goku's using Kaioken the whole time is straight up wrong because...:

Spoiler:

I don't see Goku glowing like he is here:

Spoiler:

or here:

Spoiler:

or here:

Spoiler:

or here:

Spoiler:

Also, you seem to be forgetting a very important detail. Freeza himself states Goku should be able to produce a lot more power than he is showing:

Chapter: 312 (DBZ 118), P2.3-6
Freeza: “You’re quite confident. But I’ve noticed that though you told me you’d fight seriously, you still have a considerable amount of power remaining…”
Goku: “So the jig’s up, huh?”
Freeza: “Even taking that into consideration, in my estimation… If I put out about 50%, that is to say, half of my maximum power, I'll be able to turn you into space dust..."

If Goku has a lot of power left, and he's already using Kaioken, where is that power coming from? It's been stated that Goku had no intention of using Kaioken x20:

Chapter: 313 (DBZ 119), P8.1
Goku: "I ain't got no choice but to raise the K... Kaio-Ken up to twenty-fold... Though my bo... body might not be able to take it... B... but if he really is at 50 percent now, like he says he is, then there ain't nothing at all I can do..."

With all this evidence, it's quite clear that Goku didn't start using Kaioken until after Freeza had powered up.

[freezamite]

1) The point you and I are differing on though is that you believe he started at 45,000 and increased his base while maintaining the same level of Kaiou-ken, while I believe that he shot up to 90,000 and the increase further from there was his controlled increase of how much power he was letting the Kaiou-ken increase, that he was just controlling how quickly he doubled his battle power.

The problem here is that it has never been said that it's impossible to use KK if you're hiding your power. I've pointed to a situation (and then you've pointed another one that I had forgot) where this could be the case, and you've given an alternative explanation, but nor I can say that you are factually wrong nor you can say that about me.

In fact, since there's a scene were Goku explicitly says "kaioh ken x3" and the energy rises slowly and then we see how that same Goku could pull off a kaioh ken x4 almost instantly, I'm more inclined to the option of KKx3 always multiplying by 3 an increasing strength rather than KKx3 multiplying his strength by 2,3, then 2,4 and then 2,8 until it reached 3x.

None of that matters though as my point is that a 10x difference is simply too big. If the smaller difference is reached through KKx9 or through KKx10 applied to a hidden power its something that doesn't matter to me and I'm fine with the one you think is the better option.

As for the point with Nail, he had already powered up to his maximum for several seconds before Freeza read off his strength, whereas with Goku during the two instances we've mentioned, he was being read off while in the process of him powering up. There's also the case of Vegeta when he powered up to fight Kiwi, that even though he was already at full power for a few seconds before the scouter blew up, Zarbon's scouter still read Vegeta's battle power below the 24,000 he was at during that moment, indicating that it was in the process of reading his increase.

Well, your point was the scoutter being slow capturing the energies. Since every time one character has finished his power up the scoutter reads the maximum amount of energy he has, and every time we see the number rising is because the power-up phase has still to finish, then it's pretty safe to affirm that there's not such a delay.

2) Well first, he went at a weakened and stamina-drained Piccolo while at full strength, and even if he didn't really intend to dispatch him so easily (the way he worded it was almost in a joking manner, like he didn't really care whether or not he used his full strength on him or not), he wasn't really pulling any punches when he did. If anything, it's more an indication of Piccolo's condition than Cell. Freeza though was intentionally trying to avoid killing Goku to keep him suffering for longer, so in that regard it's clear that he was pulling his punches.

Piccolo was starting to get tired, but he could still fight evenly with #17. In fact, seeing how he was still hidding his best technique, it's pretty safe to assume that he was still fresh enough.
But more important, we have #17 as a reference, and he had infinite energy. We all know how Cell humiliated him, so Piccolo wasn't that bad either.

3) So you're okay with Freeza at 6,000,000 pummeling Goku when he's at 300,000, but you think that it doesn't make sense for Goku at 3,000,000 to survive blows from Freeza while he's at 60,000,000?

No, because since my point is that KKx10 was already activated, it always was Freezer at 6.000.000 and Goku at 3.000.000, and Freezer of course being careful not to kill him.
Goku at 300.000 surviving Freezer's attacks at 6.000.000 it's only better because it at least allows to power-scale correctly during the Cell saga considering how many humans were absorbed by him, and for other reasons I will explain latter in this same post.

4) I know what absorption means, but absorbing doesn't instantly mean that it's just added. It simply means the integration of something into something else, but that doesn't mean it's simple absorption. Likewise, Piccolo's comment doesn't mean that it's simply addition either, partially because it could mean two different things. One, it could simply be a matter of Piccolo seeing how much strength Cell gained from absorbing the ki in his arm, and then judging that Cell still wasn't near strong enough to beat him, OR that Piccolo, even having lost all the ki that was in his arm, is still more than a match for Cell. The statement isn't a concrete one as far as being about Cell's increase.

Since nothing of that is explained, it can't be implied unless there's no other option.
I mean, Cell integrated someone else's power into his own power, and that means addition unless the contrary is explained. Something that important would've been explained, I mean, the androids absorption was detailed as an special absorption and even is performed differently, and it of course has a different effect than the conventional absorption.
Buu's absorption was also detailed to be special, and influenced by how good or bad was the one being absorbed.

In cell case, nothing of that is said, and phrases like "how many people did you have to kill in order to get that strong" or "the energy you took from my arm isn't enough" points towards a normal addition which is what an absorption normally consist off.

Depending on metabolisms, living organisms for example can generate more energy than the amount of fuel they take in, and the process might be the exact same with Cell. We simply don't know, so assuming it's a simple matter of "Oh, he just absorbed that guy who had a battle power of 5, so he's now 5 units stronger" isn't very sound.

No, living organism never generate more energy than the amount taken. Depending on metabolisms the body uses more of it's energy, but it's impossible to use more energy than one has absorbed. That's on real life, of course, and that rule hasn't to be applied on a fictional manga, but if that real life rule is broken then there should be a mention of it. Not even an explanation, but a mention, like the one it's made when other special absorptions take place.

5) The farmer was also rather overweight and showed signs of exhaustion before Raditz arrived. Because of that, I feel that 5 is a good indicator of the average human battle power, and not just one of a fit individual.

It wasn't exhausted, he wasn't even having problems to breathe. And regarding his "overweight", have you ever seen that contest called "world strongest humans?" where the contestants lift cars or weights of several hundreds of kilos to win? I've never seen a contestant there without overweight.
Look, he was a healthy adult man who had a physical job. This alone puts him above every man who didn't have a physical job or wasn't training in a gym, nearly every women, every kid, every old people, every injured or sick man or women...
No, the average wasn't 5 by any means, not even close. But as I say, if we go by power-scaling and we say that Goku SSJ on Namek was 150.000.000, then if the average is 5 or 2 doesn't matter, because even if it was 10 wouldn't make much of a difference.

I don't get what you mean by a 10x increase mid-fight without any warning? We know that Piccolo noticed an increase in Goku's strength, so there's evidence to support that at least some increase in his strength was noticed, and as far as Freeza not really noticing/caring too much about it, that's simply because Freeza was still far too high for him. It'd be like throwing a golf ball at a solid brick wall, and then throwing a bowling ball at the same wall. If the wall is sturdy enough, it's not going to show any sign of additional damage from the bowling ball impact over the golf ball impact, despite the bowling ball having consierably more mass and, as a result, far more kinetic energy.

The problem here is that we saw how a much weaker ball (let's say a football ball) broke that wall. I mean, don't forget Piccolo's hit to Freezer's head.
It was, according to you, a hit made by someone in the ballpark of 1/40 to 1/30 the strength Freezer had at that moment, and not only he could connect this hit but he also sent Freezer flying and dealt some damage to him.
Considering that Freezer could react to unexpected hits at 1/2 his strength, that was weird to say the least.

Thinking about it though, what if the 60,000,000 was his battle power AFTER he took the damage from the Genki Dama? Going by either of our numbers, Goku using the 20x Kaiou-ken should have done far more damage to Freeza if Freeza were at 60,000,000 (6,000,000) for you, because that'd put them dead even. Yet Freeza took one punch mainly by surprise, and then stopped Goku's Kamehameha with one hand with only a few minor burns, which shouldn't have been possible if they were even. Freeza could have been 70-80,000,00 or so normally, and the damage he took from the Genki Dama dropped him down to 60,000,000, because it wasn't a matter of being badly damaged, because he really wasn't. He was just surprised that he was damaged as much as he was.

I doubt it. When Goku activated the KKx20 he had already lost a considerable part of his energy. If Goku was at only 90% of his maximum energy due to Freezer's attacks, then his KKx20 would also be weaker than normal, and only 5.400.000/54.000.000.
In fact, Freezer at 60.000.000 after the GD and 70.000.000 - 80.000.000 before is still more difficult to believe. I mean, when Freezer fought Nail, he let Nail hit him with all his strength, and Nail had 42.000 at that point.
Freezer had 530.000, but as he said, he wasn't using all that power. Even if he was, Nail's 42.000 units would be at 1/13 the strength of Freezer in the worst possible scenario, and he did nothing to Freezer even when Freezer let him to hit a vulnerable spot like the neck.
Piccolo was at above 1.000.000 (let's say 1.100.000) plus whatever energy he could gather from a tired Gohan (he already used his energy against Freezer's alien form) and Krilin.
At the very best case, this would put him at 1.500.000 - 1.700.000 depending on how strength that tired Gohan could give to him.
I simply can't see how someone like him could take Freezer off-guard if Goku couldn't even having his KKx10 as a suddenly activated surprise attack, and how could he send Freezer flying like he did considering what Nail could do with proportionally speaking much, much, much more strength than what Piccolo could have at that point.

That would explain the relatively superficial damage that Freeza took (really, his tail getting blown off was the worst that happened to him) and the battle power decrease as a result of the damage he took, while at the same time explaining why Goku wasn't able to do any appreciable damage despite numbers saying that he should be even with him at the time of his attack.

You can't judge how injured someone is by the simple looks it has. I mean, look at Raditz after receiving that hit from Gohan (0 bruises, only a bit of blood coming off his mouth) and the injury was bad enough to let him weakened to the point where he couldn't scape Goku's grab despite him being originally much stronger than Goku and Goku having more visible injuries on him.
We know that Freezer was nearly killed by the Genkidama (Freezer explains this when he returns) and that he was hurt, we also know that he could still fight at the same level of a SSJ, but we can't deduce how much strength he lost only by the looks of him, because there are tons of examples of people being left much more weakened and with much less visible injuries.

He uses Kaioken whenever he's red... As far as the manga goes, it's sorta hard to tell for some, but it's obvious he only starts using after Freeza shows off his 50% power since Piccolo regards that Goku was hiding a ton of power shortly after Freeza's power up. The whole argument that Goku's using Kaioken the whole time is straight up wrong because...:

If we are going for the aura, then explain me why this is not a KK aura:

while the other one is.
In fact, a KK aura always has Goku's eyes in white, and the one you say is a KK aura has Goku's eyes in black.

Also, you seem to be forgetting a very important detail. Freeza himself states Goku should be able to produce a lot more power than he is showing:
If Goku has a lot of power left, and he's already using Kaioken, where is that power coming from? It's been stated that Goku had no intention of using Kaioken x20:

Goku had no intention to use KKx20, but that he was able to reach it means that he had KKx11 to KKx19 as hidden energy. I mean, considering that with a 10% difference in power it's possible to perform 1-hit kills, to have KKx15 in reservation for when the fight got serious and up to KKx20 to counter any emergency situation it's having a ton of energy hidden.

With all this evidence, it's quite clear that Goku didn't start using Kaioken until after Freeza had powered up.

Nope. With this evidence, you still have to explain:
1. Why are Goku's eyes coloured black?
2. How could Freezer react to Goku's attacks, and not to Piccolo's surprise kick?
3. Why the aura on Chapter 311 is not a KK aura, and the one in Chapter 312 is?

[TheGmGoken]

2. How could Freezer react to Goku's attacks, and not to Piccolo's surprise kick?

Does that need an explanation? It's been shown many of times that a surprise attack is effective.

1. How could Nappa react to Goku's Attack but Not Gohan's or Piccolo's attacks?
2. How could Dodora react to the Nameks attacks but not Gohan's?
3. How did 19 react to SSJ Goku's attack but not Base Vegeta's kick?
4. How did Boo react to Majin Vegeta but not Kid Trunks's?
5. How did Gotenks Boo react to Gohan's and Satan's attacks but not Goku's

I don't think Piccolo's surprise kick needs an explanation.

[TheMightyOzaru]

He uses Kaioken whenever he's red... As far as the manga goes, it's sorta hard to tell for some, but it's obvious he only starts using after Freeza shows off his 50% power since Piccolo regards that Goku was hiding a ton of power shortly after Freeza's power up. The whole argument that Goku's using Kaioken the whole time is straight up wrong because...:

If we are going for the aura, then explain me why this is not a KK aura:

Spoiler:

while the other one is.
In fact, a KK aura always has Goku's eyes in white, and the one you say is a KK aura has Goku's eyes in black.

My point is Goku always has an aura when he uses Kaioken. The picture I showed of Goku deflecting the death beams didn't have Goku with an aura. He's not using Kaioken, therefore his BP is easily well over a million, and most likely 3 million like the Daizenshuu 7 suggest.

Also, you seem to be forgetting a very important detail. Freeza himself states Goku should be able to produce a lot more power than he is showing:
If Goku has a lot of power left, and he's already using Kaioken, where is that power coming from? It's been stated that Goku had no intention of using Kaioken x20:

Goku had no intention to use KKx20, but that he was able to reach it means that he had KKx11 to KKx19 as hidden energy. I mean, considering that with a 10% difference in power it's possible to perform 1-hit kills, to have KKx15 in reservation for when the fight got serious and up to KKx20 to counter any emergency situation it's having a ton of energy hidden.

Freeza is under the impression that Goku can display a lot more energy than he is giving off. Kaioken times 11 and 19 don't exist. They are never mentioned in the manga, supplemental material, or the guide books. If you're gonna try and prove a point, I would suggest using something that actually exists.

With all this evidence, it's quite clear that Goku didn't start using Kaioken until after Freeza had powered up.

Nope. With this evidence, you still have to explain:
1. Why are Goku's eyes coloured black?
2. How could Freezer react to Goku's attacks, and not to Piccolo's surprise kick?
3. Why the aura on Chapter 311 is not a KK aura, and the one in Chapter 312 is?

1. My point is Goku has an aura whenever he uses Kaioken. Whether or not I found an example where he wasn't using it is irrelevant since my point still stands.
2. What exactly does this prove? Piccolo is still below Vegeta's power level and yet he made him his bitch. Freeza can't sense energy and was blind sided.
3. Because the size or boldness of the aura has nothing to do with anything. My point is Goku has an aura whenever he uses Kaioken. He doesn't have one while he's deflecting Freeza's attacks.
Now that we have that out of the way, if Goku is supposed to have white eyes whenever he uses Kaioken, why does he not have them when he's deflecting Freeza's death beams? That aside. What honestly do you hope to accomplish with this thread? You certainly aren't gonna change anyone's minds on what the Daizenshuu 7 says so I honestly don't get what you're trying to accomplish. 2 threads about this have been closed already because no one is taking them seriously.

[Darkprince410]

Also, you seem to be forgetting a very important detail. Freeza himself states Goku should be able to produce a lot more power than he is showing:
If Goku has a lot of power left, and he's already using Kaioken, where is that power coming from? It's been stated that Goku had no intention of using Kaioken x20:

Goku had no intention to use KKx20, but that he was able to reach it means that he had KKx11 to KKx19 as hidden energy. I mean, considering that with a 10% difference in power it's possible to perform 1-hit kills, to have KKx15 in reservation for when the fight got serious and up to KKx20 to counter any emergency situation it's having a ton of energy hidden.

Freeza is under the impression that Goku can display a lot more energy than he is giving off. Kaioken times 11 and 19 don't exist. They are never mentioned in the manga, supplemental material, or the guide books. If you're gonna try and prove a point, I would suggest using something that actually exists.

Besides, if they were even ones he was willing to entertain using in normal combat, don't you think he would have tried using them before making the drastic decision to jump to the 20x? The 10x Kaiou-ken was the highest that he was wanting to use in battle, and when Freeza commented that he still had considerable reserves left that he hasn't used yet, he acted like that power was something he was readily willing to tap into, as his response was essentially a "Yeah, you got me, I could get far stronger if I wanted to".

As for the Piccolo comments you were making earlier, it was shown that if you can catch an enemy off guard, you can knock them back considerably with a sneak attack. Look at Ssj Trunks launching Fat Buu several yards away with a sneak attack kick, when his father, an Ssj2, was just ravaged by him only moments before. The same is with Freeza. Because he can't sense ki and didn't see Piccolo coming or even anticipate his attack, he was caught off guard and got launched by the attack. However, other than knocking him away, there was no sign it did any real damage to him. When it came to Goku though, Freeza was anticipating his attacks because obviously the two were fighting, and was able to dodge them readily.

[Nazi Cola]

Doesn't the colored manga lend a hand in this?

As for Cell's absorption of the humans, I believe Cell explains in the manga (and it's definitely pointed out in the Daizenshuu) that he absorbed their life extract, which wouldn't be the same as absorbing them like Majin Boo or even what he did with the cyborgs. There's no need for "(5+3.2+1.6)(6,000,000,000)=Cell's power" or anything.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Doesn't the colored manga lend a hand in this?

It does. Read my first post.

[freezamite]

Does that need an explanation? It's been shown many of times that a surprise attack is effective.

1. How could Nappa react to Goku's Attack but Not Gohan's or Piccolo's attacks?
2. How could Dodora react to the Nameks attacks but not Gohan's?
3. How did 19 react to SSJ Goku's attack but not Base Vegeta's kick?
4. How did Boo react to Majin Vegeta but not Kid Trunks's?
5. How did Gotenks Boo react to Gohan's and Satan's attacks but not Goku's

I don't think Piccolo's surprise kick needs an explanation.

Yes, it needs an explanation when a sudden KKx10 invoked while Freezer wasn't even looking was countered completely.
KKx20 takes by surprise even a Freezer that was at a certain distance, and this was because Freezer was expecting a KKx10-strong attack. Once he realises that Goku has powered up, he dodges the second punch even when he was in a more delicate position and then counters the KameHame with only one hand.

Piccolo's kick doesn't need an explanation per se, what needs an explanation is how Freezer goes from "super-sensitive character able to predict a sudden 10x increase without even looking" to "not being able to predict a 2x increase" to "not being able to predict anything".

If Freezer could predict that "KKx10 sudden activation" it's because there was no KKx10 sudden activation. Goku was obviously using KKx10 at that point and Freezer was prepared for that level of strength. That "KK" aura wasn't even like the usual KK aura (black eyes instead of white eyes) and it only lasted the time Goku was flying (which confirms that it was a flying aura), what a coincidence.

My point is Goku always has an aura when he uses Kaioken. The picture I showed of Goku deflecting the death beams didn't have Goku with an aura. He's not using Kaioken, therefore his BP is easily well over a million, and most likely 3 million like the Daizenshuu 7 suggest.

KK x 10 didn't have the aura drawn, like those pages demonstrate:

In the very same page Kaito says Goku is already using KKx10, an image of Goku fighting without any aura.

The next chapter, is that one a KK aura?

No, not even close...

Freeza is under the impression that Goku can display a lot more energy than he is giving off. Kaioken times 11 and 19 don't exist. They are never mentioned in the manga, supplemental material, or the guide books. If you're gonna try and prove a point, I would suggest using something that actually exists.

Just WOW. So, Nail can't regenerate his leg. It's not mentioned in the manga, supplemental material, or the guidebooks o_O
Firstly, Kaiohken x2, kaiohken x3 and kaiohken x10 it's the same technique. KaiohKen is a technique that allows the user to amplify his ki over his limit. The stronger you perform the KaiohKen the more harm it does to the body, but as you have a better control of your energy you can go for higher levels of Kaioh Ken.
If Goku could perform a Kaioh Ken strong enough to multiply his strength by 20, it's absolutely obvious that he could also use a weaker form of that technique.
KKx11 to KKx19 are the same technique than KKx20, but since they are less demanding, they could have been used more easily by Goku.

1. My point is Goku has an aura whenever he uses Kaioken. Whether or not I found an example where he wasn't using it is irrelevant since my point still stands.

Yes, and there's also an aura whenever he flies at high speed. The fact is that KKx10's aura wasn't never drawn, and pointing to a random flying aura as its activation point won't do the job.

2. What exactly does this prove? Piccolo is still below Vegeta's power level and yet he made him his bitch. Freeza can't sense energy and was blind sided.

He reacted to a sudden KKx10 activation without even looking. That's what really needs to be explained. The "he was strong enough" explanation doesn't works, because as you yourselves have said in those last pages, the "surprise factor" has a determining weight that normally overwhelms any power difference.
The KKx10 sudden activation is a surprise attack, like the KKx20 was but with more surprise elements since Freezer wasn't even looking.

There's only one explanations at how Freezer could react to Goku's "sudden" KKx10 activation and not to Piccolo's surprise kick, and that is that the KKx10 was already being used and Freezer expected this kind of attack by Goku.

3. Because the size or boldness of the aura has nothing to do with anything. My point is Goku has an aura whenever he uses Kaioken. He doesn't have one while he's deflecting Freeza's attacks.

He also doesn't have one while Freezer hits him in the face, in the same image we're told he is using KKx10. Surprise.

Now that we have that out of the way, if Goku is supposed to have white eyes whenever he uses Kaioken, why does he not have them when he's deflecting Freeza's death beams? That aside. What honestly do you hope to accomplish with this thread? You certainly aren't gonna change anyone's minds on what the Daizenshuu 7 says so I honestly don't get what you're trying to accomplish. 2 threads about this have been closed already because no one is taking them seriously.

I'm saying that KKx10 didn't had the aura drawn, so I don't need to search for KK aura's to prove my point.
Regarding people taking this discussion seriously or not, seeing how weak your reasons are I also think that this has to be the case... at least, in your case.

Besides, if they were even ones he was willing to entertain using in normal combat, don't you think he would have tried using them before making the drastic decision to jump to the 20x?

Why would Goku do that? Since the moment Freezer powered up to 50% Goku knew that even the KKx20 wasn't enough. Why waste energy on absolutely ineffective attacks?
On all the fights Goku had had until that point, and even the latter ones, the energy in reserve it's a mere percentage of the grand total.
Goku could reach a KK strong enough to multiply his strength by 20 and he was fighting comfortably at KKx10. Of course he was confident about how much strength he was hiding.
And yes, KKx20 during that fight was like KKx3 during the fight against Vegeta, something Goku knew could only be used in case of emergency.

The 10x Kaiou-ken was the highest that he was wanting to use in battle, and when Freeza commented that he still had considerable reserves left that he hasn't used yet, he acted like that power was something he was readily willing to tap into, as his response was essentially a "Yeah, you got me, I could get far stronger if I wanted to".

That's not true. He didn't want to use the KKx20 because he already anticipated that KKx20 would be too much, but KKx10 was used like if it was nothing, and I'm sure than something like KKx15 wouldn't put a bigger burden on his body than KKx2 during the fight against Vegeta.

As for Cell's absorption of the humans, I believe Cell explains in the manga (and it's definitely pointed out in the Daizenshuu) that he absorbed their life extract, which wouldn't be the same as absorbing them like Majin Boo or even what he did with the cyborgs. There's no need for "(5+3.2+1.6)(6,000,000,000)=Cell's power" or anything.

Majin Boo's absorption transformed Boo himself, that's not how normal absorptions work, and the same goes for the android absorption.
The other one, since Piccolo anticipates how much energy Cell absorbs from his body and since nothing is said about any multiplication factor, it's like normal absorptions work in DB. I mean, the androids also absorbed energy and there was not multiplication either...