At which point is KK x10 activated?

[Darkprince410]

He reacted to a sudden KKx10 activation without even looking. That's what really needs to be explained. The "he was strong enough" explanation doesn't works, because as you yourselves have said in those last pages, the "surprise factor" has a determining weight that normally overwhelms any power difference.
The KKx10 sudden activation is a surprise attack, like the KKx20 was but with more surprise elements since Freezer wasn't even looking.

There's only one explanations at how Freezer could react to Goku's "sudden" KKx10 activation and not to Piccolo's surprise kick, and that is that the KKx10 was already being used and Freezer expected this kind of attack by Goku.

No, that's far from the only explanation. Freeza was never once surprised by any of Goku's attacks on him, because he knew Goku was attempting to attack him and count anticipate those attacks. So he was always able to be ready to dodge or evade his attack, and therefore the 10x jump in power was irrelevant with Freeza still being far stronger.

With Piccolo, he had absolutely no idea the attack was coming, and got blindsided by it. It was able to knock him away because he had his guard down and left himself open to attack, not assuming the others would try to jump in and help.

Why would Goku do that? Since the moment Freezer powered up to 50% Goku knew that even the KKx20 wasn't enough. Why waste energy on absolutely ineffective attacks?
On all the fights Goku had had until that point, and even the latter ones, the energy in reserve it's a mere percentage of the grand total.
Goku could reach a KK strong enough to multiply his strength by 20 and he was fighting comfortably at KKx10. Of course he was confident about how much strength he was hiding.
And yes, KKx20 during that fight was like KKx3 during the fight against Vegeta, something Goku knew could only be used in case of emergency.

That's not true. He didn't want to use the KKx20 because he already anticipated that KKx20 would be too much, but KKx10 was used like if it was nothing, and I'm sure than something like KKx15 wouldn't put a bigger burden on his body than KKx2 during the fight against Vegeta.

Considering that when he used the 20x Kaiou-ken against Freeza, he outright said that he hoped it would be enough, it's definitely not true that he knew it wouldn't be enough. He was nonchalant about the power he was hiding because it was power he was ready and willing to use, and since he wasn't aware of Freeza holding back so much of his own strength when he made that comment, it's clear that his own statement was about what he was wanting to use, and not what he would use out of desperation.

Besides, we have Goku saying that he's hiding a large amount of power away, and then only moments later, after we are definitively certain he is using the 10x Kaiou-ken, Piccolo comments that the power Goku was hiding isn't enough to keep up with the power Freeza was hiding, both indicate that the 10x Kaiou-ken was that large amount of power that he was holding back.

Majin Boo's absorption transformed Boo himself, that's not how normal absorptions work, and the same goes for the android absorption.
The other one, since Piccolo anticipates how much energy Cell absorbs from his body and since nothing is said about any multiplication factor, it's like normal absorptions work in DB. I mean, the androids also absorbed energy and there was not multiplication either...

#19 and #20 absorbed ki directly, whereas Cell absorbed the individual as a whole by draining their life extract. The two processes aren't similar, so you can't assume that how that strength is integrated would be similar either.

[freezamite]

No, that's far from the only explanation. Freeza was never once surprised by any of Goku's attacks on him, because he knew Goku was attempting to attack him and count anticipate those attacks. So he was always able to be ready to dodge or evade his attack, and therefore the 10x jump in power was irrelevant with Freeza still being far stronger.

He knew Goku was attempting to attack, he didn't knew anything about any KK. How could Freezer anticipate the increase? Remember that he wasn't looking at Goku, so he couldn't see him approaching 10 times faster than what he had been doing until then.
Freezer was the same that got fooled by a trick based on remotely controlled ki. He also was expecting an attack then, and when he heard that something was coming out of the water he reacted to that even when Goku was attacking from the other side.

That's the same he does when he goes at 50%. He hears that Goku is attacking, and he reacts based on what he knows. If there had been a KKx10 activation there, he couldn't know it without looking at Goku, which he clearly doesn't.

Besides that, the aura is not even a KK aura with Goku's eyes coloured in black.

Considering that when he used the 20x Kaiou-ken against Freeza, he outright said that he hoped it would be enough, it's definitely not true that he knew it wouldn't be enough. He was nonchalant about the power he was hiding because it was power he was ready and willing to use, and since he wasn't aware of Freeza holding back so much of his own strength when he made that comment, it's clear that his own statement was about what he was wanting to use, and not what he would use out of desperation.

And that's why he had a plethora of intermediate KK levels between the one he was using and the one he was reserving in case of emergency. This "KKx11 doesn't exist" nonsense has to stop.

Besides, we have Goku saying that he's hiding a large amount of power away, and then only moments later, after we are definitively certain he is using the 10x Kaiou-ken, Piccolo comments that the power Goku was hiding isn't enough to keep up with the power Freeza was hiding, both indicate that the 10x Kaiou-ken was that large amount of power that he was holding back.

And how could Piccolo possibly know what was this power Goku was referring to, when he didn't even know that KKx20 existed? As I already explained to you, KKx10 + energy manipulation could explain that in a much more logical way than KKx10 activated in a chapter without a single KK aura drawn and with no apparent consequences.

#19 and #20 absorbed ki directly, whereas Cell absorbed the individual as a whole by draining their life extract. The two processes aren't similar, so you can't assume that how that strength is integrated would be similar either.

On the same way, one could argue that #19 and #20 had a built-in amplifier that multiplied the ki absorbed, and that since Cell was a living organism and in real life we have the 10% rule (only a 10% of the energy transfers to the next tropic level and is incorporated by life beings) only a 10% of the energy the humans had transferred to his body.
But this is a fictional story, and I'm going for what is implied and/or said. If there was any multiplication effect, it surely would've been explained by Toriyama. Since it wasn't explained, it can't be assumed unless there's not another option. In my opinion, that option exists.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Cell's ascension to his perfect form has to be a result of some type of multiplication. SSJG2 Vegeta was a good deal stronger than Semi-Perfect Cell, who at the very least had 17's power + Cell's own power. Cell even said that was the case in his Semi-Perfect form. The problem we run into with the notion that Cell's power is only the result of addition is FPSSJ Goku. FPSSJ Goku at half his power made Vegeta shit his pants. SSJG2 Vegeta was already a good deal stronger than Semi-Perfect Cell means that FPSSJ Goku has to be even stronger than that already decent gap between SSJG2 Vegeta and Semi Perfect Cell. We then have to factor in that Perfect Cell exceeds that of not only FPSSJ Goku's power, but FPSSJ Gohan's as well, whom is stronger than Goku. Here's some basic scaling:
C-17: 2
Imperfect Cell: 3
Semi-Perfect Cell: 5
SSJG2 Vegeta: 6
FPSSJ Goku(Half): 7
FPSSJ Goku: 14
FPSSJ Gohan: 15
Perfect Cell: 16+
This is viewing things from a bare minimum perspective. Cell's rocking power over 3 times what he had in that Semi-Perfect state at a bare minimum. Yeah, like I said, Perfect Cell's power has to be the result of some kind of multiplication.

[Darkprince410]

No, that's far from the only explanation. Freeza was never once surprised by any of Goku's attacks on him, because he knew Goku was attempting to attack him and count anticipate those attacks. So he was always able to be ready to dodge or evade his attack, and therefore the 10x jump in power was irrelevant with Freeza still being far stronger.

He knew Goku was attempting to attack, he didn't knew anything about any KK. How could Freezer anticipate the increase? Remember that he wasn't looking at Goku, so he couldn't see him approaching 10 times faster than what he had been doing until then.
Freezer was the same that got fooled by a trick based on remotely controlled ki. He also was expecting an attack then, and when he heard that something was coming out of the water he reacted to that even when Goku was attacking from the other side.

That's the same he does when he goes at 50%. He hears that Goku is attacking, and he reacts based on what he knows. If there had been a KKx10 activation there, he couldn't know it without looking at Goku, which he clearly doesn't.

Besides that, the aura is not even a KK aura with Goku's eyes coloured in black.

Considering that when he used the 20x Kaiou-ken against Freeza, he outright said that he hoped it would be enough, it's definitely not true that he knew it wouldn't be enough. He was nonchalant about the power he was hiding because it was power he was ready and willing to use, and since he wasn't aware of Freeza holding back so much of his own strength when he made that comment, it's clear that his own statement was about what he was wanting to use, and not what he would use out of desperation.

And that's why he had a plethora of intermediate KK levels between the one he was using and the one he was reserving in case of emergency. This "KKx11 doesn't exist" nonsense has to stop.

Besides, we have Goku saying that he's hiding a large amount of power away, and then only moments later, after we are definitively certain he is using the 10x Kaiou-ken, Piccolo comments that the power Goku was hiding isn't enough to keep up with the power Freeza was hiding, both indicate that the 10x Kaiou-ken was that large amount of power that he was holding back.

And how could Piccolo possibly know what was this power Goku was referring to, when he didn't even know that KKx20 existed? As I already explained to you, KKx10 + energy manipulation could explain that in a much more logical way than KKx10 activated in a chapter without a single KK aura drawn and with no apparent consequences.

#19 and #20 absorbed ki directly, whereas Cell absorbed the individual as a whole by draining their life extract. The two processes aren't similar, so you can't assume that how that strength is integrated would be similar either.

On the same way, one could argue that #19 and #20 had a built-in amplifier that multiplied the ki absorbed, and that since Cell was a living organism and in real life we have the 10% rule (only a 10% of the energy transfers to the next tropic level and is incorporated by life beings) only a 10% of the energy the humans had transferred to his body.
But this is a fictional story, and I'm going for what is implied and/or said. If there was any multiplication effect, it surely would've been explained by Toriyama. Since it wasn't explained, it can't be assumed unless there's not another option. In my opinion, that option exists.

1) He didn't know how much stronger that Goku was going to jump up to, but he still knew that Goku was going to attack, and given that he was vastly stronger than Goku at the point, it didn't matter how big Goku's jump was, because he was still below Freeza by a vast amount and his attacks were anticipated.

We've seen before there's precedence of fighters being able to just detect shifts in the air, and could have just as easily heard Goku charging at him. No matter how you try to explain it, Freeza somehow knew Goku was rushing at him and was able to dodge and counterattack, because he knew that Goku was trying to fight him, and was caught completely by surprise by Piccolo's attack. He had every reason to have his guard up when Goku was rushing him, but had no reason to have his guard up when Piccolo attacked him.

Given that the colored version of the manga shows that his eyes can be white without it be a Kaiou-ken aura, and that he can have a Kaiou-ken aura without his eyes being white, maybe you shouldn't focus as heavily on his eyes to determine if he's using the Kaiou-ken or not.

2) Given that there was absolutely no statement even suggesting that he was or even willing to use anything above 10x, outside of trying to use the 20x as a last ditch attack, there's nothing to say he used or even considered using anything between the 10x and 20x.

3) I'm not saying that he knew that the 20x Kaiou-ken existed or anything, just that he noticed a considerable increase in Goku's power only moments after Goku confirmed that he was holding back a considerable amount of power that he was readily willing to use in a fight. Considering that the 10x Kaiou-ken was the highest he was willing to use, and that his statement strongly indicates that the vast amount of power he was hiding was something he was indeed willing to use, that means that he wasn't using it beforehand.

Given what we see in the manga, it's far more logical and far simpler that Goku wasn't using the Kaiou-ken at all until after Freeza went to 50%, and that he had a battle power of 3,000,000 in his normal form.

4) Why do you think it'd surely be explained by Toriyama? We still don't know how exactly the fusions work as far as determining the fused character's strength, and it took several years after the fact before we got the more pertinent Ssj multipliers. These were things never mentioned as working any special way in the manga, so why would Cell's absorptions automatically need to be simple addition just because the manga didn't say otherwise?

[freezamite]

Cell's ascension to his perfect form has to be a result of some type of multiplication. SSJG2 Vegeta was a good deal stronger than Semi-Perfect Cell, who at the very least had 17's power + Cell's own power.

Well, the android absorption was described as a special one, so I already know it wasn't a simple addition.
In my opinion, Cell's second form was weaker than Cell's first form + #17, but his last form was much stronger than his second form + #18.

FPSSJ Goku at half his power made Vegeta shit his pants.

I always thought that Vegeta knew that this was Goku's 50% and that he shit his pants with that in mind.

C-17: 2
Imperfect Cell: 3
Semi-Perfect Cell: 5
SSJG2 Vegeta: 6
FPSSJ Goku(Half): 7
FPSSJ Goku: 14
FPSSJ Gohan: 15
Perfect Cell: 16+
This is viewing things from a bare minimum perspective. Cell's rocking power over 3 times what he had in that Semi-Perfect state at a bare minimum. Yeah, like I said, Perfect Cell's power has to be the result of some kind of multiplication.

Well, as I said, Cell absorptions on the androids was special. He was "reborn" every time he absorbed an android, so I would power-scale this way instead:
C-17: 2
Imperfect Cell + absorptions: 2,3
Semi-Perfect Cell: 3,3 - 3,5
SSJG2 Vegeta: 3,7 - 3,9
FPSSJ Goku: It depends. If we consider that he was double strong than Vegeta because of Vegeta not knowing that Goku was at his 50%, then I would go for the lower numbers on Semi-Perfect Cell and Vegeta, but I wouldn't put Goku above 8 by any means. In fact, I consider it better to put him at around 7-8.
FPSSJ Gohan: 7,3 - 8,4 Depending on what strength we give Goku.
Perfect Cell: would have around 9 - 10 although I personally would opt for 9.

Yeah, like I said, Perfect Cell's power has to be the result of some kind of multiplication.

Although we could discuss about the numbers, I agree that Perfect Cell was the result of a multiplication, or at least much more than a simple addition. But then again, that absorption was a special one, even considering how differently were the androids incorporated.

1) He didn't know how much stronger that Goku was going to jump up to, but he still knew that Goku was going to attack, and given that he was vastly stronger than Goku at the point, it didn't matter how big Goku's jump was, because he was still below Freeza by a vast amount and his attacks were anticipated.

Well, here's the problem, that the increase mattered a lot. It mattered not only because Freezer could react to Goku's attack (in my opinion he shouldn't be able to do that considering that he countered Goku without looking at him, I mean, he calculated the exact moment of jump) in the sense of being able to defend against it, but also because HE DIDN'T WANT TO KILL GOKU, and in order to adjust his strength to be low enough for Goku to survive, he had to know at which strength Goku attacked.

Did you see how Vegeta killed Dodoria or Kiwi? If Freeza counter-attacked Goku with enough power not to kill him without KKx10, that hit wouldn't had any effect on Goku. But it had an effect on Goku, which means that Freezer knew that KKx10 was activated (not that he knew specifically about KK, but he knew how strong Goku was while using KKx10).

So this KKx10 activated there theory has two problems:
1. The aura isn't even a KK aura. It's a flying aura with Goku's eyes coloured in black.
2. How could Freezer possibly know how much strength he had to use? If Goku hadn't attacked at KKx10 that would've resulted in a fatal blow, but he didn't want to kill Goku in one hit, so the logical reaction would have been to counter Goku's attack with the same strength that he used until then.

We've seen before there's precedence of fighters being able to just detect shifts in the air, and could have just as easily heard Goku charging at him. No matter how you try to explain it, Freeza somehow knew Goku was rushing at him and was able to dodge and counterattack, because he knew that Goku was trying to fight him, and was caught completely by surprise by Piccolo's attack. He had every reason to have his guard up when Goku was rushing him, but had no reason to have his guard up when Piccolo attacked him.

Yes, I'm not questioning that he could react to Goku's attack, I'm questioning how could he possibly know that Goku had KKx10 activated. The strike was strong enough to hurt Goku's KKx10, that means that Freezer's attack had at least 10 times the strength than the attacks he had been doing until then. How did he know if he wasn't even looking?

Given that the colored version of the manga shows that his eyes can be white without it be a Kaiou-ken aura, and that he can have a Kaiou-ken aura without his eyes being white, maybe you shouldn't focus as heavily on his eyes to determine if he's using the Kaiou-ken or not.

If that colored version wasn't coloured by Toriyama, it has the same validity than an anime chapter. On the regular manga Goku's eyes are always white while on KK.

2) Given that there was absolutely no statement even suggesting that he was or even willing to use anything above 10x, outside of trying to use the 20x as a last ditch attack, there's nothing to say he used or even considered using anything between the 10x and 20x.

The fact that he could reach x20 means that x11 to x19 were also mastered. Considering that Goku was confident about the power he was hiding, and that he was only at half the maximum KK he could possibly reach, yes, it's pretty obvious that he could rely on in-between KK levels in order to fight.
If he jumped right into 20x it's because Freezer showed him what he was able to do at only 50%. In other words, after seeing with his own eyes how strong Freezer was Goku knew that anything less than his maximum KK would be completely useless and a waste of energy. In fact, even the KKx20 turned to be a waste of energy at the end.

3) I'm not saying that he knew that the 20x Kaiou-ken existed or anything, just that he noticed a considerable increase in Goku's power only moments after Goku confirmed that he was holding back a considerable amount of power that he was readily willing to use in a fight.
Considering that the 10x Kaiou-ken was the highest he was willing to use, and that his statement strongly indicates that the vast amount of power he was hiding was something he was indeed willing to use, that means that he wasn't using it beforehand.

The problem here is that you think that anything below a "10x increase" can't be considered big enough. In DB a 10% difference in your favour makes you strong enough to perform 1-hit kills, or 2-hit kills at worst. That 10% difference would already be considered an enormous difference in DB terms, and 10x the power is a 1000% difference.

4) Why do you think it'd surely be explained by Toriyama? We still don't know how exactly the fusions work as far as determining the fused character's strength, and it took several years after the fact before we got the more pertinent Ssj multipliers. These were things never mentioned as working any special way in the manga, so why would Cell's absorptions automatically need to be simple addition just because the manga didn't say otherwise?

Because there had been a lot of absorptions on DB and all of them worked by addition, and also because even if not said directly it was implied by Piccolo at least twice. It should also be explained because as you said, to absorb is to incorporate something into you. So the very definition of Cell absorbing people points towards an addition if nothing else is said, except for the special cases (the two androids) which resembled more a fusion than a simple absorption, but were specifically labelled as "special" absorptions.
If we're going by the fusion example, it wasn't explained how they exactly worked, but when a new kind of fusion was introduced a comparison with the known fusion methods was done in order to explain the readers the difference between them. And thanks to that, we knew that Pothala fusions were 10 times stronger than the ones done through dancing.

[Darkprince410]

1) Freeza actually comments though that he's surprised Goku's still alive after the blows he took. Even though he wasn't wanting to outright kill him, he's surprised by Goku being able to survive despite the increased strength of his attacks. He's not gauging his strength and guessing when he is and isn't using, he's just attacking Goku with his strength and is just genuinely surprised he's still surviving. It's clear that Goku's stamina took a huge hit almost immediately after Freeza started wailing on him.

2) He was confident in the power that he was willing to use, and he was only willing to use up to 10x. Anything above that is the same as the 3x Kaiou-ken during the Saiya-jin Saga, as in he might be able to use it, but it's certainly not something he wants to do. Therefore, even if he has access to them, you shouldn't consider them things he was going to use for that fight. The situation is no different than if he were to say, during the Saiya-jin Saga, while he's in his base form, that he's got a lot of power he has hidden away that he's willing to use, in reference to his Kaiou-ken. He wouldn't be saying that about his 3x or 4x, since he wasn't willing to use those, but did so out of desperation, just his regular Kaiou-ken.

I consider less than a ten fold increase still a large increase. It's just that the events in the manga strongly suggest that he wasn't using any form of Kaiou-ken until after Freeza jumped to half power.

3) No it wasn't implied by Piccolo, or anyone else for that matter, that it works like that at all. Unless it's explained or suggested as such, we can't make any assumptions as to how it works, but there's just as much precedence that it works by some strange method as it does that it works by addition.

[TheMightyOzaru]

FPSSJ Goku at half his power made Vegeta shit his pants.

I always thought that Vegeta knew that this was Goku's 50% and that he shit his pants with that in mind.

It's made quite clear at the Cell Games that that is not the case.

[Darkprince410]

FPSSJ Goku at half his power made Vegeta shit his pants.

I always thought that Vegeta knew that this was Goku's 50% and that he shit his pants with that in mind.

No, that's not the case at all. We see Goku powering up in front of Korin to have him gauge his strength in comparison to Cell's, and when Korin has him stop, Goku comments that he was only using about half his strength. Vegeta, up on the lookout oblivious to Goku making that comment, establishes that once again, Goku has surpassed him. He has no idea that it wasn't Goku's full strength by any means, so for Vegeta to say that would mean that what Goku had exhibited during that power up was already above where Vegeta was.

[freezamite]

1) Freeza actually comments though that he's surprised Goku's still alive after the blows he took. Even though he wasn't wanting to outright kill him, he's surprised by Goku being able to survive despite the increased strength of his attacks. He's not gauging his strength and guessing when he is and isn't using, he's just attacking Goku with his strength and is just genuinely surprised he's still surviving. It's clear that Goku's stamina took a huge hit almost immediately after Freeza started wailing on him.

Freezer had according to me, double the strength Goku had at KKx10 at that point. That's 10 times the difference it's needed to kill someone with one or two blows at worst.
Besides that, the comment of him not wanting to kill Goku ASAP was made afterwards, so he wasn't "that surprised" after all.
I know that Goku has a great resistance to hits, but he lost consciousness fighting against 100% freezer, he was harmed fighting Cell at the same strength... a blow delivered at 10x his power would've killed him no doubt, so if KKx10 was activated there, Freezer had to hit at least 8-9 times stronger for that increase not to affect him.
If we consider that the kick dealt more damage to Goku than the hits he took before, that meant an increase of at least 10 times in strength, and that's unavoidable no matter how you look at it, and the question is how could Freezer sense that increase if he wasn't even looking at Goku.

2) He was confident in the power that he was willing to use, and he was only willing to use up to 10x.

No, he wasn't willing to use KKx20, that's not the same as not wanting to use anything between x10 and x20.
Look, from your perspective Goku went from nothing to KKx10 when Freezer was pummelling him at 50%, in that context what you say makes plenty of sense.
I mean, Goku knew how strong Freezer was and despite that he only pulled a KKx10 against that power when he could reach x20. If he used x10 and he already knew how strong Freezer was, that meant that he wasn't willing to go any higher than that.
In my opinion, Goku was at KKx10 since the beginning and we know that he could reach KKx20. Him being so confident about how much strength he hid meant that he had at least some higher levels of KK that could be used in a somewhat comfortable way since KKx10 was mastered to the utmost degree.
After that Freezer shows him how strong he is, and he realizes that he has to power up to his limit in order to have a minimal chance of success, and that's what he does.

3) No it wasn't implied by Piccolo, or anyone else for that matter, that it works like that at all. Unless it's explained or suggested as such, we can't make any assumptions as to how it works, but there's just as much precedence that it works by some strange method as it does that it works by addition.

It was implied since Piccolo knew that the energy that Cell took from him wasn't enough to beat him. You said before that this could be explained because Piccolo sensed how much strength Cell gathered, and he knew he was still superior.
At that moment I believed that, but now I've re-read the fight, and Cell doesn't show at any point how strong he has become after absorbing Piccolo's arm energy.
In other words, he never powers up to his maximum after draining Piccolo's strength, so the only way Piccolo had to know that he was still stronger was through ADDITION.

This are my reasons to point towards an addition:
1. Piccolo knowing what he shouldn't know if Cell's absorption worked differently.
2. Absorptions being simple adds during the whole series, including that same saga, and 0 references to it being anything different like that. That's even more solid when we consider that Cell actually said that the absorption of #17 and #18 was special. If something "known" works different than usual, it's a basic narrative rule to explain it, and it can't be argued that Toriyama was that bad at writting since we see how he describes the special case for when absorptions doesn't work as usual.
3. It can also be perfectly power scaled this way.

No, that's not the case at all. We see Goku powering up in front of Karin to have him gauge his strength in comparison to Cell's, and when Karin has him stop, Goku comments that he was only using about half his strength. Vegeta, up on the lookout oblivious to Goku making that comment, establishes that once again, Goku has surpassed him.

The problem is that I don't think Vegeta was oblivious to that. I mean, Piccolo-god was also there, and he also senses Goku's strength. Piccolo could know anything that happened below that tower, and it's obvious that at the very first moment he sensed Goku's power he also was curious about what was happening.
If Vegeta knew or not that this was Goku's 50% it's something that we can only speculate, I assumed that he knew because Piccolo was there, he had the capability to know exactly what happened and I find it a bit weird that he didn't explain that to the others while Goku and Karin were still speaking about Cell's strength, for example.

That being said, the difference between Goku and Vegeta was really big, and Vegeta being at 45% Goku's maximum strength or him being at 55% doesn't matter that much since both can be scaled perfectly without contradicting the manga. It's only a matter of perceptions, I find it a bit weird that Piccolo wouldn't explain the others something that important about Goku, but that explanation isn't shown so I can't say that it happened for sure.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Vegeta outright says:

Chapter: 398 (DBZ 204), P6.3-4
Context: after Goku unveils his full power
Vegeta: “So this is his true power?...”
Trunks: “Amazing…Goku really is absolutely amazing…”

Vegeta did in fact not know Goku was only revealing half his power to Karin. No offense, but honestly having a hard time believing you've read the manga.

[Darkprince410]

1) Just because a gap of 10-15% has been enough in the past for one individual to destroy another with physical attacks doesn't mean that it's the case for all individuals. For starters, Goku has time and again been praised by others (Roshi for example) as having an amazing level of stamina, and that it allowed him to continue fighting against superior opponents when any other individual would have fallen already.

Secondly, you keep mentioning Vegeta's fights against Kiwi and Dodoria, which were not only berated by Vegeta, but Freeza as well, for being terrible fighters that only did well in fights because they were going after much weaker targets. Before Vegeta and the events of the Freeza Saga, neither of them had ever encountered an opponent even remotely on par with them. They were untrained, unskilled, and essentially glass cannons.

Given how quickly we see Goku's stamina just completely drain away after Freeza started beating on him with his 50% strength (after only a handful of blows, with only a couple being mitigated by the 10x Kaiou-ken), I can fully accept him having been beaten around by someone nearly twenty times stronger than him.

2) Let me ask you this. If he was willing to use anything between 10x and 20x, don't you think he would have? Even upon realizing that Freeza's strength had jumped so considerably, for him to stick to just using the 10x to both attack and defend himself makes no sense if he was willing to use anything higher. Even Tenshinhan essentially establishes that the 10x was the most he was able to endure, with anything after that falling into "Kaiou-ken 3x in the Saiya-jin Saga" levels.

Chapter: 312 (DBZ 118), P14.2-5
Tenshinhan: "There’s nothing to worry about. Goku will win this match…Aren't you forgetting about the Kaio-Ken? As he is now, Goku is able to endure a maximum of up to about 10 times his power, right?"
Kaio: "Unfortunately... That Ten-Fold Kaio-Ken is what Goku is using now..."

If he was willing to use anything in between the 10x and 20x Kaiou-ken, he would have given how much of a beating he was taking, because there's no reason to believe that he'd get pummeled around, taking incredible amounts of damage, when he's got additional power he's willing to tap into.

In short, the 10x is the maximum he's willing to use, and prior to Freeza jumping to 50%, he wasn't using it.

3) Then that doesn't work by your reasoning either, because how would Piccolo know it wouldn't be enough (even if it was added on) if Cell wasn't using his full power? Likewise, who's to say that he wasn't using his full power even after that he absorbed him? We saw him power up earlier and there was no indication that his strength dropped at all after that, so who's to say that he wasn't still at full power after absorbing the ki from Piccolo's arm.

Lastly, as I said earlier, a completely different interpretation of it could be seen. Piccolo's comment could easily be just a matter of "Okay, even though I lost some strength, I'm more than a match for you still." He does indicate after that he would have easily been able to defeat him, but got careless, so there's more precedence that Cell was still at full strength after absorbing Piccolo's arm, that Piccolo feigned how weak he was, but in truth knew he was still vastly more powerful even though he lost some strength.

His comment about #17 and #18 being special could easily be in regards to triggering the change in form, that he doesn't absorb their life extract (instead absorbing them whole), and a host of other possibilities. It doesn't automatically mean that theirs is special because the others are like addition whereas the two of them are different.

4) As TMO pointed out, Vegeta was definitely under the impression that it was Goku's full strength, and not only half.

[freezamite]

Vegeta outright says:

Chapter: 398 (DBZ 204), P6.3-4
Context: after Goku unveils his full power
Vegeta: “So this is his true power?...”
Trunks: “Amazing…Goku really is absolutely amazing…”

Vegeta did in fact not know Goku was only revealing half his power to Karin. No offense, but honestly having a hard time believing you've read the manga.

Firstly, to say that I didn't read the manga only because I forgot this concrete sentence from Vegeta... I think that you're a bit salty with anyone that disagrees with you about something. I mean, do you remember any single sentence that's been said on the manga? If you do, then congratulations, but to try to bash all of my threads with provocations like those (even when you say "no offence it's pretty obvious that your intention is to offend me") doesn't help the forum at all. In fact, you're in a DISCUSSION forum and you get salty only because someone diverges from what you think, and that's not a good attitude at all.

But regarding what you've said, I can only answer "wow", I mean, just "WOW". Now I think I'm beginning to understand some of those "energy lists" that doesn't follow any basic rule of the DB manga. The problem is not that you haven't read the manga, the problem is that you REALLY lack reading comprehension.
I mean, for one part you demonstrate that you haven't understood anything about power sensing. Do you really think that when Vegeta (or anyone else) senses someone else's power he sees a number over his head as if it had a scoutter?
Power sensing has its advantages and it's inconveniences compared to a regular scoutter. For one part, power sensing allows to identify someone and even someone's intentions to some degree (evil ki compared to pure ki) and to have a general idea of someone's power, but nothing close to being precise. This is how Perfect Cell was confident to beat SSJ2 Gohan until he got beaten, Vegeta was confident about beating Freezer, and I could continue for long describing situations on where power sensing proved to lack any precision.
On the other hand, the scoutter can't identify shit besides the amount of ki, but it does that with maximum precision and can even translate anyone's ki to a measurable number, and every time a higher number was read/displayed by the scoutter, the difference in strength was also obvious. Unlike before, there's not a single case where a character thought he could beat someone with a stronger ki sensed by the scoutters (see Dodoria, Nappa, Raditz, Zarbon or Kiwi reactions to power lectures) and the only cases where scoutters where fooled where when a character hid part of his ki before the scoutter could read it. But regarding the ki emitted at a certain moment, it was 100% precise.

If you didn't know something that basic then or the one who hasn't read the manga is you, or you lack any reading skill, and now is when I demonstrate that you may have read the manga, but that you couldn't possibly understand anything not directly stated.

Look at the phrase you cited from Vegeta trying to demonstrate that he didn't know about Goku being only at 50%. And now think even for a moment if that phrase doesn't in fact CONFIRM that Vegeta knew about Goku using only 50% of his power before.
I mean, can't you see that if Vegeta would've thought that Goku's demonstration at the Karin's tower was his 100% the reaction wouldn't have been "so this is his full power?" (phrase that implies that he already knew that what he sensed wasn't Goku's full power) but "how the hell could he become that strong in only 9 days of normal training outside of the Time and Space Chamber?".

I repeat, Vegeta's reaction CONFIRMS that he already knew that Goku was at 50% at Karin's tower.
Thank you for reminding me about this phrase, and to compensate you for the favour you've done to me I'll remind you that although going to school is something boring, it's also something that you have to do in order to progress on your life. Study, it may not be as fun as to watch Goku kicking someone's else ass, but it will allow you to come back at that manga and to understand it at least partially, because at this point I doubt you understood anything besides "Goku & friends are the good ones and they fight the bad ones".

Hey, but as you say, "no offence"
(I don't like this kind of posting but it's logical that if you attack my credibility like you do, I at least do the same in what's called legitimate self-defence).

1) Just because a gap of 10-15% has been enough in the past for one individual to destroy another with physical attacks doesn't mean that it's the case for all individuals.

That 10% rule has never been factually broken in the manga. Every time there was a gap bigger than that or the weaker was destroyed or the stronger specifically said that he was "striking softly" or something in those lines.

For starters, Goku has time and again been praised by others (Roshi for example) as having an amazing level of stamina, and that it allowed him to continue fighting against superior opponents when any other individual would have fallen already.

Yes, but that doesn't mean that he can survive a 10x stronger hit. In fact, he already had tons of fights against evenly opponents and we already saw that his resistance was big, but not bigger than the one of Vegeta for example. But let's suppose that when he fights Freezer he can took hits like those, look at those pictures:




According to you, those hits are made at >10x the strength Goku is using at that moment. Wee see that they deal some damage to him, but that he can still continue to defend and recover his position after receiving them.
So Goku receives those hits and decides to power up at KKx10 to at least reduce differences, and Freezer of course is still fighting with the same strength because he can't possibly know that Goku has a technique called KK that allows him to multiplicate his energy.


So, isn't it a bit "curious" how the hit that Goku received after powering up with KKx10 is the one that deals more damage to him, to the point where he starts to have problems to breath?

This KK activation based on the aura has the following problems:
1. It lacks coherence with the context of the story. Yes, Goku was resistant and such, but Raditz destroyed him while fighting softly and the difference was only of 3x, and he lost to fighters who had the same power than him. If Vegeta who was also praised by his endurance or Nappa who's endurance surprised even Goku weren't able to resist those kinds of differences, Goku also wasn't.

2. It lacks coherence with the context of the action. So he powers up 10 times and receives more damage than when he wasn't powered up? Why did he power up then?

3. It even lacks coherence with how it was drawn. KK's aura always implied whitened eyes and this one doesn't have it. You could say that this is also true for my theory of the "invisible" KKx10, but at least it's coherent in that KKx10 is always drawn without a KK aura. On the other hand, that sudden KK activation based on the aura drawn lacks coherence with all the previous KK auras and also with how the KKx10 was represented itself, because in those images Goku is clearly using the KK... without aura:

Secondly, you keep mentioning Vegeta's fights against Kiwi and Dodoria, which were not only berated by Vegeta, but Freeza as well, for being terrible fighters that only did well in fights because they were going after much weaker targets. Before Vegeta and the events of the Freeza Saga, neither of them had ever encountered an opponent even remotely on par with them. They were untrained, unskilled, and essentially glass cannons.

Even then, the physical difference is always respected. Let's pick more experienced fighters then. When Goku destroys Reecoome and ridiculize both Jeese and Butter Ginyu estimates his power at 60.000
Those were super-skilled fighters, and Ginyu knew perfectly how strong they were. Even if we go for the bare minimum strength they could have, 60.000 units wouldn't be more than 50% the power they had (and that's supposing that they were only 40.000, which I doubt).

Given how quickly we see Goku's stamina just completely drain away after Freeza started beating on him with his 50% strength (after only a handful of blows, with only a couple being mitigated by the 10x Kaiou-ken), I can fully accept him having been beaten around by someone nearly twenty times stronger than him.

So he resists hits 20 times stronger than him (it would be a first and last on the series) but then he is harmed by hits 20 times weaker (proportionally speaking) than that? This lacks any sort of coherence with what we've seen of Goku's fights...

2) Let me ask you this. If he was willing to use anything between 10x and 20x, don't you think he would have? Even upon realizing that Freeza's strength had jumped so considerably, for him to stick to just using the 10x to both attack and defend himself makes no sense if he was willing to use anything higher.

Power sensing is not as precise as a scoutter, that coupled with the fact that anything beyond KKx10 would put a strain on his body (the higher the KK the more damage it deals to the body) and that even with KKx10 he hadn't been fighting at his maximum level it's logical that he would at least want to try what could be done without harming himself.
Once he realises how strong Freezer is, he tries for the highest KK he can reach (x20).

Even Tenshinhan essentially establishes that the 10x was the most he was able to endure, with anything after that falling into "Kaiou-ken 3x in the Saiya-jin Saga" levels.

The problem is that we are at a range where multiple levels of KK can be comprised into what was a single level of KK on the saiyan saga. I mean, on the saiyan saga x2 was supported comfortably (not as comfortably as KKx10 during that Freezer fight), KKx3 was already too much and KKx4 destroyed his body in a matter of a few seconds.
But now he is at KKx10 dominated, and the difference of x2 to x3 which is a 50% increase now is KKx15. In fact, if we compare directly KKx2 on the saiyan saga and KKx10 on the Freezer saga (minimum used), and KKx4 on the saiyan saga and KKx20 on the Freezer saga (maximum used) you'll see that Goku supported the x20 a bit better than he did with x4 on the earth, and x10 also a bit better than he did with x2 back then.
So KKx15 would be the equivalent of KKx3 although going by that comparison it was probably a bit more harmless than KKx3 during the saiyan fight.

3) Then that doesn't work by your reasoning either, because how would Piccolo know it wouldn't be enough (even if it was added on) if Cell wasn't using his full power?

Cell was using his full power BEFORE absorbing Piccolo's strength, after the absorption he becomes stronger, but he doesn't power up anymore (since he is planning to run and not to fight).
Piccolo knew how strong was Cell before the absorption, and also knew how many energy was drained from him and also how many energy he still had left. The only way he could deduce that Cell's absorption didn't put it above him was because an addition was implied, if not, Piccolo couldn't possibly knew and the sentence wouldn't have had any sense.

4) As TMO pointed out, Vegeta was definitely under the impression that it was Goku's full strength, and not only half.

No, seriously, no. Think about it again, that reaction confirmed that Vegeta knew that Goku was at 50%. I'm sorry if you've been offended by what I said to TMO (he was being salty with me, and I got salty with him) but the point still stands. Vegeta's reaction is what could be expected from someone that already knew that Goku hid his power on Karin's tower.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Vegeta outright says:

Chapter: 398 (DBZ 204), P6.3-4
Context: after Goku unveils his full power
Vegeta: “So this is his true power?...”
Trunks: “Amazing…Goku really is absolutely amazing…”

Vegeta did in fact not know Goku was only revealing half his power to Karin. No offense, but honestly having a hard time believing you've read the manga.

Firstly, to say that I didn't read the manga only because I forgot this concrete sentence from Vegeta... I think that you're a bit salty with anyone that disagrees with you about something. I mean, do you remember any single sentence that's been said on the manga?

It's not the line, it's the concept. The manga is quite clear, not only through Vegeta, but many others that Goku was only showing half his power. Lets also remember that Karin had to be told that he was only showing half his power:

Chapter: 391 (DBZ 197), P10.4-5
Context: After powering up and almost destroying Karin’s tower…
Goku: “That just now was about half power. What do you think?”
Karin: “Half power…?! What a fearsome guy you are…How strong will you become before you’re satisfied…?!”

As you can see, it's quite clear that half of Goku's FPSSJ power already leaves SSJG2 Vegeta's in the dust.

But regarding what you've said, I can only answer "wow", I mean, just "WOW". Now I think I'm beginning to understand some of those "energy lists" that doesn't follow any basic rule of the DB manga. The problem is not that you haven't read the manga, the problem is that you REALLY lack reading comprehension.

Excuse me? Goku showing half his power is stated. Vegeta not knowing it was half his power is stated. Pardon me for accepting what's directly stated. Also you should refrain from such statements if you want to keep this thread open. VegettoEX hasn't taken too kindly to disrespect in power debating threads lately.

[freezamite]

Well, considering that my first thread was closed precisely because of you entering on it and saying what you've said now, it wouldn't surprise me if that one is also closed. But if you want to be respected, the first is to respect other people's opinions.

Excuse me? Goku showing half his power is stated.

Yes.

Vegeta not knowing it was half his power is stated.

In fact, it's the opposite that's implied from Vegeta's statement.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Well, considering that my first thread was closed precisely because of you entering on it and saying what you've said now, it wouldn't surprise me if that one is also closed. But if you want to be respected, the first is to respect other people's statements.

I'm not disrespecting you. I was legitimately curious if you read the manga or not because you are forgeting fairly basic concepts.

Vegeta not knowing it was half his power is stated.

In fact, it's the opposite that's implied from Vegeta's statement.

I don't see how. He's surprised by Goku's true power. It's quite clear what's implied. Vegeta didn't know that Goku was showing only half his power. Again I'll state Karin had to be told that was only half:

Chapter: 391 (DBZ 197), P10.4-5
Context: After powering up and almost destroying Karin’s tower…
Goku: “That just now was about half power. What do you think?”
Karin: “Half power…?! What a fearsome guy you are…How strong will you become before you’re satisfied…?!”

[freezamite]

Well, considering that my first thread was closed precisely because of you entering on it and saying what you've said now, it wouldn't surprise me if that one is also closed. But if you want to be respected, the first is to respect other people's statements.

I'm not disrespecting you. I was legitimately curious if you read the manga or not because you are forgeting fairly basic concepts.

Vegeta not knowing it was half his power is stated.

In fact, it's the opposite that's implied from Vegeta's statement.

I don't see how. He's surprised by Goku's true power. It's quite clear what's implied. Vegeta didn't know that Goku was showing only half his power. Again I'll state Karin had to be told that was only half:

Chapter: 391 (DBZ 197), P10.4-5
Context: After powering up and almost destroying Karin’s tower…
Goku: “That just now was about half power. What do you think?”
Karin: “Half power…?! What a fearsome guy you are…How strong will you become before you’re satisfied…?!”

Piccolo was looking from above, and since he can see/hear everything that happens down thanks to the kami fusion (even Dende can do that) by when Vegeta admits defeat there has been plenty of time for Piccolo to explain that to the others.

Vegeta's sentence implies that power sensing it's not mathematically precise, which is something that can be demonstrated fairly easily. But him saying "So this is his true power?" also implies that he already knew that he had never sensed Goku's true power, otherwise he would've said "How could he get that strong?" or "wasn't the power he released on Karin's tower his maximum power?".
Vegeta knew.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Piccolo was looking from above, and since he can see/hear everything that happens down thanks to the kami fusion (even Dende can do that) by when Vegeta admits defeat there has been plenty of time for Piccolo to explain that to the others.

A. Piccolo's super hearing doesn't come from his fusion. Seriously beginning to doubt again. B. Is Piccolo stated to have heard from all the way up there? No? Then that's an assumption that's contradicted by Vegeta and Trunks' statement at the Cell games. Heck even Piccolo is surprised by his power:

Spoiler:

Furthermore, Vegeta is confident he has gotten stronger than Kakarot prior to Goku powering up:

Chapter: 395 (DBZ 201), P13.5
Context: after Goku says he’ll fight first Cell first
Vegeta: “Do what you want. Either way, I’ll be the one to finish this…”

If Vegeta knows that Goku's power was only half, why did he believe he would be the one to finish this prior to his power up? Simple, he didn't know Goku showed only half his power.

Vegeta's sentence implies that power sensing it's not mathematically precise, which is something that can be demonstrated fairly easily. But him saying "So this is his true power?" also implies that he already knew that he had never sensed Goku's true power, otherwise he would've said "How could he get that strong?" or "wasn't the power he released on Karin's tower his maximum power?".

No... no that's not implied at all.

[TheGmGoken]

Piccolo was looking from above, and since he can see/hear everything that happens down thanks to the kami fusion (even Dende can do that) by when Vegeta admits defeat there has been plenty of time for Piccolo to explain that to the others.

Um. Piccolo had super hearing way before he fused with the Namkeian with a missing name(The Kami of Earth until Dende). Did you forgot Trunks when he first showed up and talked to Goku? Piccolo heard EVERYTHING and that was before he fused with Kami. But lately I've gotten lost in this topic. What does this have to do with when did Kaioken x10 get activated?

[Darkprince410]

1) Vegeta's not shown any indication of having a large amount of stamina. Sure, he took a few impressive blows during the Saiya-jin Saga, but Goku was tearing his body apart during the course of most all the attacks, depleting his strength in the process. Likewise, Nappa's "stamina" is questionable given that we see evidence of his actual battle power being near equal to Goku's base, thus his stamina being far from impressive. Goku though, time and again, has been praised for his stamina, though this fight with Freeza is the first time where it really didn't do much anything for him.

Against enemies as strong or a few times stronger than him, he's still managed to tank their attacks without any appreciable damage, or at the very least stay the course with them far longer than most others could. With Freeza though, once he jumped to 50%, his stamina dropped almost instantly. He was going from his calm, collected self to having a hard time catching his breath, which shows he depleted his stamina quick.

And it doesn't lack coherence because everything that's said in the manga pretty much basically says that he wasn't using it prior to Freeza using 50% of his full power. There's no aura or mention of him using the Kaiou-ken at any point while he's blocking the ki blasts that only moments later killed Vegeta, no aura when he's fighting Freeza during their warm up, and most importantly no explanation as to how he can suddenly sustain for several minutes a level of power that he's stated to "be able to endure". If he was using the Kaiou-ken during that initial fight with Freeza, why did Toriyama not draw any indiciation of it whatsoever, or point out at a later time that he was and had been using it for the entire course of the fight? Dialogue indicates a clear boost in Goku's power after Freeza jumped to 50%, and as much as you want to say so, there's nothing saying that it's anything above the 10x Kaiou-ken.

2) He also knows the limitations of his men, and the fact that, like Dodoria and Kiwi, they've never had to deal with opponents equal or stronger than they are.

3) Right there you are proving my point. Goku was talking about a vast reserve of ki that he was willing to use in battle. Like anything above the regular Kaiou-ken in the Saiya-jin Saga, anything above the 10x in the Freeza Saga was something that would still put a strain on his body, and therefore wasn't something he'd willingly use in battle. He'd do it out of necessity, but it wasn't something he would just use willingly. That's the important thing you're ignoring. Kaiou-ken 11x-20x falls into a category of things he'll use if needed, but he certainly doesn't want to, but the power that he still has in reserve when Freeza makes the comment to him is power that he IS willing to use, and therefore has to be below 11x.

4) He wasn't planning to run away until after Trunks and Kuririn arrived, and likewise there's nothing to say that he powered down at all. He could have easily been at full power when he was absorbing Piccolo's ki (since he was holding onto him as the latter was struggling) and Piccolo just as easily sensed how much stronger he got while powered up.

5) I don't see how that in the slightest suggests that he knew Goku was still hiding half his strength. He powers up, and Vegeta makes a comment indicating that he's bewildered by how strong he is. Like "Is that his full power? I can't believe how strong he is!" not "I don't believe that's his full power, he's got to be hiding a lot of it". You've made the comments that unless it's stated or said otherwise, you have to take what's shown in the manga at face value, so in this case, since there's nothing to say that Piccolo heard Goku say that he was only using half his strength, let alone divulged that fact to Vegeta and the others, we can't assume that Vegeta knows about it.

Besides, if were privy to the fact that he was only at half strength during that power-up, why would they be completely awestruck by how strong he was when he powered up to fight Cell seriously? They'd have an accurate idea of how strong he was, so why would they suddenly be unable to believe how powerful he was?

What does this have to do with when did Kaioken x10 get activated?

He's using it to try and support his version of the power scaling that happens. He believes that Freeza and Cell have basically the same battle power, and TMO was using FpSsj Goku in comparison to Ssj 2nd Grade Vegeta as evidence against it, since Goku is twice as strong Vegeta by Vegeta's own admission.

[freezamite]

A. Piccolo's super hearing doesn't come from his fusion. Seriously beginning to doubt again.

Piccolo's super hearing has nothing to do with the ability God has to control everything that happens on the earth from his palace. His super hearing maybe was enough to hear Goku's conversation at a few kilometers of distance, but that doesn't mean that it was enough to cover the whole distance to Karin's tower.
Confirming your lack of reading comprehension?

B. Is Piccolo stated to have heard from all the way up there? No? Then that's an assumption that's contradicted by Vegeta and Trunks' statement at the Cell games.

Contradicted by what exactly? By the same sentence that CONFIRMS that Vegeta ALREADY KNEW that Goku was at his 50% and not his full power?

Furthermore, Vegeta is confident he has gotten stronger than Kakarot prior to Goku powering up:

Yes, he was also confident that he had surpassed Freezer at his true form, so what? Power sensing isn't a scoutter, it's useful to gauge a foe's strength to a certain point, but not to measure his strength with precision.

If Vegeta knows that Goku's power was only half, why did he believe he would be the one to finish this prior to his power up? Simple, he didn't know Goku showed only half his power.

If Vegeta had sensed Freezer's power, he wouldn't have fight against him... oh wait!!!
That's not how it works, not even close.

No... no that's not implied at all.

Yes, of course it's implied. If Vegeta thought that Goku was at full power before, "so this is his full strength?" isn't any logical sentence no matter how you look at it. You say something like that the first time you see someone's full strength, and besides that, the situation is so extreme that it's even more ridiculous that you can't see it.
So Goku went from let's say 2 to 4 in one year of training at 10x the gravity and some other extreme conditions (less oxygen, extreme temperatures, etc.) and then he goes from 4 to 8 in 9 days of relaxing training on the earth, and Vegeta says "so this is his true power?".
Didn't he think that he had already sensed Goku's full power before? How can this make the least sense to you? There are only two possible reactions in that context that makes sense:
1. Something like "How could he become that strong in such a short period of time?"

or
2. Something like "I thought that he was at his max, but he wasn't!"


Those are the kind of reactions that someone has when he thinks that he know the maximum power of someone but then it results that he doesn't, and there are tons of examples on the series.

Um. Piccolo had super hearing way before he fused with the Namkeian with a missing name(The Kami of Earth until Dende). Did you forgot Trunks when he first showed up and talked to Goku? Piccolo heard EVERYTHING and that was before he fused with Kami.

No, I didn't forgot. But the distance between the palace of god and the tower of Karin is multiple orders of magnitude bigger than the one that was between him and Trunks-Goku when he heard the android conversation.
Kami knew everything that happened on the earth from his palace and that's an ability Piccolo gains when he fuses with him.


And that's obviously what I was referring to when I said that it was a power he gained fusing with Kami.

1) Vegeta's not shown any indication of having a large amount of stamina. Sure, he took a few impressive blows during the Saiya-jin Saga, but Goku was tearing his body apart during the course of most all the attacks, depleting his strength in the process.

Look, there's not a single fight besides the one you point at with Goku being able to endure those kind of hits. This isn't someone 10x times stronger kicking lightly, this is someone 20x times stronger kicking with enough strength to to hurt him at 10x the strenght.

Besides that, you insist on Goku's resistance, well then, I'm sure that you will find tons of examples of comparable endurance to justify your point.
On the other hand, you are desperately dodging some points of my argumentation that I'm starting to think that you can't explain:
1. Why does Freezer deal more damage to Goku once he has powered up than before?
2. Where is the aura on the pages I posted above if he is using KKx10 at that point and according to you KKx10 had an aura?
3. Why is that KK aura drawn as a flying aura, that is, with the eyes coloured in black?

And while you're at it, I've remembered something that also invalidates your previous sentence of "Freezer could react to Goku's sudden increase because he was much stronger".
Look at this:



And let's compare it with this:



So Freezer goes from 50% to 70% (a 40% increase in strength) and takes Goku, who was looking at him from at least 50-100 meters of distance and it's possibly the character with most experience on the whole series in terms of energy sensing and manipulation, by surprise thanks to that sudden increase.
Meanwhile, Freezer can react to a 1000% increase while not even looking at Goku, without any ability regarding power sense and also being at only a few meters of distance from him.
You could argue in your favour (although it would still be a pretty weak argument considering all those factors) that the difference between SSJ Goku and 70% Freezer was "only" of 35-42% in favour of Goku, while the difference between KKx10 Goku and 50% Freezer was bigger than that (100% in favour of Freezer). It's such a shame that you put Goku SSJ at 150 million and Freezer 100% at only 120, thus making the difference between 150 million and 84 million (70% of 120) nearly as big as the other one, making it even more difficult to explain how something like that could possibly happen.

And it doesn't lack coherence because everything that's said in the manga pretty much basically says that he wasn't using it prior to Freeza using 50% of his full power.

No, as I've already demonstrated interpreting those same exact sentences in a way they don't contradict the manga at any point. As I already said, Goku wasn't even fighting seriously even with KKx10 activated, and then he had a lot of room to grow until KKx20.

There's no aura or mention of him using the Kaiou-ken

The mention it's not that Goku has just activated the KKx10 but that he is already using it. You've moved your goalpost, because your theory of KKx10 being activated at that point and not before was ONLY that aura, and as I've proven with images, there was no aura while Kaioh said those things.

Once the "KK doesn't exist without an aura" argument disappears, and since it's not specified when KKx10 is activated, the only possibility is it being activated BEFORE the very beginning of the fight.

3) Right there you are proving my point. Goku was talking about a vast reserve of ki that he was willing to use in battle. Like anything above the regular Kaiou-ken in the Saiya-jin Saga, anything above the 10x in the Freeza Saga was something that would still put a strain on his body, and therefore wasn't something he'd willingly use in battle.

Well, I already said that KKx10 was dominated to a point that KKx2 wasn't during the saiyan saga, but looking into it again, the difference was even bigger than what I said.
On the saiyan saga KKx2 was only activated in case of necessity and for short periods of time, while as I've said, during the Freezer fight KKx10 was activated the whole time.
The KK is always harmful to the body no matter how you master it, but in terms of damage dealt to the body things were like this in my opinion:
KKx10 (vs Freezer) <<< KKx2 (vs Vegeta) <<< KKx15 (vs Freezer) <<< KKx3 (vs Vegeta) <~= KKx20 (vs Freezer) <<< KKx4 (vs Vegeta)

Why do I think this? Well, since my opinion is that KKx10 was used during the whole fight it's pretty obvious that it was less harmful than KKx2 during the saiyan saga. And also looking at the damage KKx4 dealt to Goku being only activated for a few milliseconds, it's obvious that it was much more brutal than the KKx20 he used against Freezer.
This is how Goku was left after using the KKx3


Look at how his body trembles and he is feeling a great pain for having used it, and this is how KKx20 harms Goku:



Going by the images I'm starting to think that KKx3 was even more harmful to Goku than KKx20, in which case KKx11 to KKx19 is even a much stronger possibility now than it was before doing this "research".

4) He wasn't planning to run away until after Trunks and Kuririn arrived

No, he plans to run since the very moment Piccolo regenerates his arms and he knows he can't possibly win. He speaking about his retreat afterwards doesn't mean that he had any will to fight before Trunks and Krilin arrive, since he already had 0 chances to defeat Piccolo.

and likewise there's nothing to say that he powered down at all.

No, he didn't power down, but he didn't power up and that's what matters. Cell had let's say 1 of power before the absorption, and it ended at 1.1 after it. Since he couldn't possibly use 1.1 before the absorption he would have had to power up again to 1.1 in order to fight at full power, and he didn't.

Besides that, this is what Piccolo says by Herm's translation of the original source:

Chapter: 364 (DBZ 170), P1.1
Context: after regenerating his arm while fighting Cell
Piccolo: “Cell, even if I take into account the energy you sucked from my arm, I’m still more powerful than you. Brace yourself!”

Everything points towards an addition, he even says "the energy you sucked from my arm".

He could have easily been at full power when he was absorbing Piccolo's ki

Yes, he was at full power, but that full power became less than his full powered once the energy of Piccolo was absorbed and we didn't see any form of power up or any comment pointing towards that happening. I'm starting to think that some people in that forum have created a parallel version of that manga.
Freezer reacting to what Goku can't, KK activated without any coherence, Cell having a hidden multiplicator that is never described at any point, power ups that happen and that are not drawn and no one notices them...
It's pretty obvious that you're pulling a lot of things out of nowhere in order to explain your theories, and even then there are tons of things that can't be explained going by your numbers and interpretations of the manga.

and Piccolo just as easily sensed how much stronger he got while powered up.

Or he knew by how energy he had lost how much energy Cell had gained. Since he speaks of "energy sucked" that's an add unless you prove your point somehow.

5) I don't see how that in the slightest suggests that he knew Goku was still hiding half his strength. He powers up, and Vegeta makes a comment indicating that he's bewildered by how strong he is. Like "Is that his full power? I can't believe how strong he is!" not "I don't believe that's his full power, he's got to be hiding a lot of it".

Why are you transforming what I'm saying? Which sense has to say "I don't believe that's his full power, he's got to be hiding a lot of it" in that context? (I presume that you're speaking about the comment Vegeta does when Goku goes at full power against Cell).
The logical reaction I'm saying it could be possible at that point it's not that one, but "I can't believe how strong he is, I thought that he used his full power back then but he had much more strength hidden!".

Besides, if were privy to the fact that he was only at half strength during that power-up, why would they be completely awestruck by how strong he was when he powered up to fight Cell seriously? They'd have an accurate idea of how strong he was, so why would they suddenly be unable to believe how powerful he was?

Since when is power sensing accurate? Cell thinking he could win SSJ2 Gohan, Vegeta thinking he could beat Freezer!!! No, power sensing is anything but accurate.
They knew that what they sensed was his 50%, but that doesn't mean having an accurate idea about Goku's power. They could gauge it to a point where they knew he was stronger, but accuracy is not precisely the word I would use to describe what power sensing really is.

Look, the best comparison I can think of the power sensing vs the scoutter thing is feeling ill vs using a thermometer. Feeling ill allows you to know that you're not well, to have an approximate idea of how bad you might be (at 40 Cº you will feel much worse than at 37,5 Cº) and even to have an idea of what you could have depending on things like "my neck is hurting" or "my whole body hurts" or perceptions like that. The thermometer on the other hand won't tell you that much information, only your body temperature, but it will tell you it with an exact precision.
But there will be times when you will feel worse at 38 Cº than at 39 Cº, and the only way to know your body temperature will be through a thermometer.

In the same way, power sensing allows the user to have a general idea of how strong a foe is, and it also gives additional information like if he is "good" or "evil". In the same way, the scoutter is much more limited in the sense that it only measures kis, but it does it like a thermometer, with an exact precision.
And there are also times where someone will have a wrong idea of an enemy's power due to factors that are not directly explained (I could give some reasons as to why I think this could happen), but that can confuse or mislead the one that is currently feeling that power.

He's using it to try and support his version of the power scaling that happens. He believes that Freeza and Cell have basically the same battle power, and TMO was using FpSsj Goku in comparison to Ssj 2nd Grade Vegeta as evidence against it, since Goku is twice as strong Vegeta by Vegeta's own admission.

Considering that I already said this:

That being said, the difference between Goku and Vegeta was really big, and Vegeta being at 45% Goku's maximum strength or him being at 55% doesn't matter that much since both can be scaled perfectly without contradicting the manga.

And that this is not the first time you've changed the meaning of what I was saying, and also the meaning of what the manga implied in tons of dialogues, I think that you read too fast and often without comprehending what is written.