Unpopular DB opinions

[Basaku]

I agree that having normal people contribute to the final bad guy's demise was a great ending, unfortunately it doesn't build to that moment. When you summarize everything like you did, you can make pretty much anything sound good, it's all about execution. Case in point, GT. What if you didn't know anything about GT, and someone told you the story first harkens back to the first days of Dragon Ball then evolves into a story where a being from the Saiyans' past comes back to haunt them, and finally the show ends with the Dragon Balls turning on our heroes. That sounds great to me, I'm sold. Unfortunately, the execution was lackluster.

Perhaps, however, a great ending may rise the value of the entire arc significantly. Buu arc at least has that, what has Baby arc except for SSJ4? And yes, some GT ideas were great, Shadow Dragon premise in particular. "Going back to DB"? Doesn't sound good to me even as an idea on paper. Such change needs to happen as natural evolution, as it did originally. It can't be "manufactured". I have honestly no idea why Toei did it when it backfired just 1 year before GT in Sailor Moon SuperS.

[Kid Buu]

Wait, what did GT do that SuperS did?

[Basaku]

Wait, what did GT do that SuperS did?

More comedy, less action, kid character at front, reduced cast, more stand-alone episodes, like the original seasons in both shows were. More new-audience friendly, "soft" reboot. GT started reverting back to "Z" style along the run and Sailor Moon reverted to "S" style in Stars season after backlash.

[ABED]

I agree that having normal people contribute to the final bad guy's demise was a great ending, unfortunately it doesn't build to that moment. When you summarize everything like you did, you can make pretty much anything sound good, it's all about execution. Case in point, GT. What if you didn't know anything about GT, and someone told you the story first harkens back to the first days of Dragon Ball then evolves into a story where a being from the Saiyans' past comes back to haunt them, and finally the show ends with the Dragon Balls turning on our heroes. That sounds great to me, I'm sold. Unfortunately, the execution was lackluster.

Perhaps, however, a great ending may rise the value of the entire arc significantly. Buu arc at least has that, what has Baby arc except for SSJ4? And yes, some GT ideas were great, Shadow Dragon premise in particular. "Going back to DB"? Doesn't sound good to me even as an idea on paper. Such change needs to happen as natural evolution, as it did originally. It can't be "manufactured". I have honestly no idea why Toei did it when it backfired just 1 year before GT in Sailor Moon SuperS.

the Baby arc had an interesting villain with a solid backstory.

Evolution is great but going back to the beginning can be a part of that. It's called "bringing things full circle."

[Basaku]

Evolution is great but going back to the beginning can be a part of that. It's called "bringing things full circle."

If there's a point to it. Doing it for the sake of it is not good reason enough.

[ABED]

Evolution is great but going back to the beginning can be a part of that. It's called "bringing things full circle."

If there's a point to it. Doing it for the sake of it is not good reason enough.

What do you think is a good enough reason?

I think it's a great reason after the Buu arc. Goku's faced the greatest threat in the universe, so fighting yet another universal threat feels overused. Having him go on a journey to save his home is a good story premise.

[Kid Buu]

Wait, what did GT do that SuperS did?

More comedy, less action, kid character at front, reduced cast, more stand-alone episodes, like the original seasons in both shows were. More new-audience friendly, "soft" reboot. GT started reverting back to "Z" style along the run and Sailor Moon reverted to "S" style in Stars season after backlash.

Sounds about right.

I actually like SuperS more than Stars did, despite S being my favourite season.

[Basaku]

What do you think is a good enough reason?

I don't know, innocence/humor/light-hearteness being important topic to the overall arc, or villain story? If it's just to show what it was 7 years before there's no need for that, everyone can just pop-in old VHS/Laser Disc/DVD to see it, it's not like old episodes get erased from existance after lots of serious episodes.

I think it's a great reason after the Buu arc. Goku's faced the greatest threat in the universe, so fighting yet another universal threat feels overused. Having him go on a journey to save his home is a good story premise.

The idea of glactic journey and returned focus on the Dragon Balls themselves are good, and I agree seem fitting after "exhaisting" Buu arc. But what purpouse does it serve to reduce the cast so extensively? Turn Goku to kid again and have him be basically DB episode 1 Goku instead of Goku-after-Buu character? And drag it for like 20 episodes? DBZ had its nice fillers, heaven tournament was cool and good 'breathing room' after Cell saga. Heck, Buu arc itself already reverted back to some more comedic style, whit quite good result. Didn't feel jarring as GT beginning does.

[ABED]

I think GT did a good job of transitioning from the quasi standalone early episodes to the more serialized story of the Baby arc.

I agree that turning Goku into a kid again wasn't the best idea (though I don't hate it like some do), I like that the cast was slimmed down and focused on a few key characters. At least kid Goku acted like he was an older person trapped in a kid's body, and it made for some good humor.

And no, it did not drag for 20 episodes, we meet Baby's henchmen within the first 10 episodes. My problem with the Buu arc's use of humor is that it undercuts the threat. There's humor in the previous arcs, but it doesn't serve to undercut the threat of Vegeta, Freeza, or Cell.

[Basaku]

And another thing, Buu arc already did "let's have little Goku back" lol. WHat terrifies me is that Toriyama apparently though GT kid Goku was a great idea, I'm clinging to hope it's some fabricated fan rumor

[ABED]

And another thing, Buu arc already did "let's have little Goku back" lol. WHat terrifies me is that Toriyama apparently though GT kid Goku was a great idea, I'm clinging to hope it's some fabricated fan rumor

Except he's not kid Goku, he's adult Goku trapped in a kid's body. The running joke is he keeps getting mistaken and treated as a child when in fact he's a grandfather.

[Basaku]

And another thing, Buu arc already did "let's have little Goku back" lol. WHat terrifies me is that Toriyama apparently though GT kid Goku was a great idea, I'm clinging to hope it's some fabricated fan rumor

Except he's not kid Goku, he's adult Goku trapped in a kid's body. The running joke is he keeps getting mistaken and treated as a child when in fact he's a grandfather.

Good enough material for 1 Holiday Special slapstick episode, why oh why do we need Goku trapped in kid body for entire GT? Especially after he becomes adult in SSJ4 form just to revert to kid again. It's just tacked on, there is no deep plot reason for this

[ABED]

And another thing, Buu arc already did "let's have little Goku back" lol. WHat terrifies me is that Toriyama apparently though GT kid Goku was a great idea, I'm clinging to hope it's some fabricated fan rumor

Except he's not kid Goku, he's adult Goku trapped in a kid's body. The running joke is he keeps getting mistaken and treated as a child when in fact he's a grandfather.

Good enough material for 1 Holiday Special slapstick episode, why oh why do we need Goku trapped in kid body for entire GT? Especially after he becomes adult in SSJ4 form just to revert to kid again. It's just tacked on, there is no deep plot reason for this

It was the wish that Pilaf made. That's it, I don't think you need a deeper reason.

[Basaku]

It was the wish that Pilaf made. That's it, I don't think you need a deeper reason.

Since the great majority of audience disliked the idea, then I say you 'kinda' did needed better motivation to justify it for 64 episodes than just "haha Pilaf made funny wish".

[ABED]

It was the wish that Pilaf made. That's it, I don't think you need a deeper reason.

Since the great majority of audience disliked the idea, then I say you 'kinda' did needed better motivation to justify it for 64 episodes than just "haha Pilaf made funny wish".

Stories shouldn't be dictated by what the audience likes or dislikes, it should be dictated by what makes sense. The entire DB series happens because Bulma wanted a funny wish. Pilaf's wish may have been funny, but the consequences weren't.

[Basaku]

Stories shouldn't be dictated by what the audience likes or dislikes, it should be dictated by what makes sense. The entire DB series happens because Bulma wanted a funny wish. Pilaf's wish may have been funny, but the consequences weren't.

And evolved heavily throughout 400+ episodes since that moment. Suddenly going right back to the beginning does not make for good storytelling nor uses 'coming full circle' trope well. And at the very least, it "makes sense" to have Goku return to adult form after first transforming into SSJ4 at the latest. Also, stories shouldn't be dictated by nostalgia or soft-reboot new-audience-chasing desires by production company.

[ABED]

I don't know if you said it, but the Buu arc went for more of the comedy in the beginning. In this case, the wish is just the McGuffin.

And at the very least, it "makes sense" to have Goku return to adult form after first transforming into SSJ4 at the latest.

It doesn't not make sense for him to go back to being a kid anymore than it makes sense for SS4 to make him an adult. It's all magic and hokum anyway.

[Basaku]

I don't know if you said it, but the Buu arc went for more of the comedy in the beginning. In this case, the wish is just the McGuffin.

And at the very least, it "makes sense" to have Goku return to adult form after first transforming into SSJ4 at the latest.

It doesn't not make sense for him to go back to being a kid anymore than it makes sense for SS4 to make him an adult. It's all magic and hokum anyway.

Yes true, but if they already decided that SSJ4 form's gonna break the DB wish, then it should've stayed this way. GOing back & forth is even worse.

[ABED]

I don't know if you said it, but the Buu arc went for more of the comedy in the beginning. In this case, the wish is just the McGuffin.

And at the very least, it "makes sense" to have Goku return to adult form after first transforming into SSJ4 at the latest.

It doesn't not make sense for him to go back to being a kid anymore than it makes sense for SS4 to make him an adult. It's all magic and hokum anyway.

Yes true, but if they already decided that SSJ4 form's gonna break the DB wish, then it should've stayed this way. GOing back & forth is even worse.

I don't see how. It's no worse than the kooky logic of Buu's various forms.

[Basaku]

I don't see how. It's no worse than the kooky logic of Buu's various forms.

Buu changes forms mostly based on absorptions. Of course there's Kid Buu at the end that makes no sense (should've been Evil Buu), as well as Fat Boo looking the same after spitting out all the remaining evil. But he's still 10 times more conistient than Goku in DB who's a kid in normal form, a kid in SSJ1-3, and adult in SSJ4 and Gogeta, doesn't revert back to adult after achieving 'adulthood' in SSJ4. It's a mess with zero logic, not just errors.