The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

[Chrono Trigger]

I think it might be time to take the "just how literal is GOKU X VEGETA = VEGETTO" discussion to a new thread of its own if anyone wants to continue it.

That would be cool. I mean to me...the way I see it. Super Buu utterly outclassed Goku and Vegeta. Gohan utterly outclassed Super Buu. Super Buu absorbed Gohan. So for Vegetto to outclass Buu the way he did...it just had to be multiplication...of their battle powers. I don't even think he really had to turn Super Saiyan to defeat Gohan Buu. I think a base Vegetto could have beaten Gohan Buu easily...and I think a Super Saiyan 3 Vegetto would be overkill against Beerus. I mean yeah...Beerus was stronger than SSJ3 Goku and Gohan...but Kid Buu was able to hold his own against SSJ3 Goku and Buu with Gotenks absored outclassed Gohan about as effortlessly as Beerus would have....So maybe Beerus was about as strong as Majin Buu with Gotenks absorbed? Or a little bit stronger?Or a little bit weaker? How would they know the difference against someone they couldn't even damange a tiny bit? Goku, Vegeta, Buu, Satan, and Planet Earth barely beat Kid Buu and had they been fighting Super Buu with Gotenks absored then even Gohan would have been useless. That's how I look at it at least. I think the Old Kai had it right. Between the magical properties of the potara and Goku and Vegeta being rivals it made the fusion special. It made them the ultimate warrior....which we all already knew but...I'm just saying the fusion probably made hime thousands and thousands times stronger than the series ultimate villain at his peak.

[Hugo Boss]

In my opinion, Vegetto's BP is 1.000x (Goku's BP+ Vegeta's BP)/2. By having a powerlevel of 13.000.000, he would defeat Freeza depending on the level of kaioken he could attain.

[Eternal Super Saiyan]

I think it might be time to take the "just how literal is GOKU X VEGETA = VEGETTO" discussion to a new thread of its own if anyone wants to continue it.

That would be cool. I mean to me...the way I see it. Super Buu utterly outclassed Goku and Vegeta. Gohan utterly outclassed Super Buu. Super Buu absorbed Gohan. So for Vegetto to outclass Buu the way he did...it just had to be multiplication...of their battle powers. I don't even think he really had to turn Super Saiyan to defeat Gohan Buu. I think a base Vegetto could have beaten Gohan Buu easily...and I think a Super Saiyan 3 Vegetto would be overkill against Beerus. I mean yeah...Beerus was stronger than SSJ3 Goku and Gohan...but Kid Buu was able to hold his own against SSJ3 Goku and Buu with Gotenks absored outclassed Gohan about as effortlessly as Beerus would have....So maybe Beerus was about as strong as Majin Buu with Gotenks absorbed? Or a little bit stronger?Or a little bit weaker? How would they know the difference against someone they couldn't even damange a tiny bit? Goku, Vegeta, Buu, Satan, and Planet Earth barely beat Kid Buu and had they been fighting Super Buu with Gotenks absored then even Gohan would have been useless. That's how I look at it at least. I think the Old Kai had it right. Between the magical properties of the potara and Goku and Vegeta being rivals it made the fusion special. It made them the ultimate warrior....which we all already knew but...I'm just saying the fusion probably made hime thousands and thousands times stronger than the series ultimate villain at his peak.

A little too overkill... We realize we are multiplying 2 characters possibly close to 100,000,000 in base form, TOGETHER. If the Potara fusion was 100x both bases (A+B x 100) then he wouldn't have an astronomical difference between his power level and Gohan Buu's power level. I mean, if we really put Vegetto at that sort of a power level, his PINKY along would send him flying into the next dimension. (a rough estimate on what would happen!!!)

[DBZGTKOSDH]

AxB in battle power units doesn't have to be equal to AxB in unknown units.

When did I ever say anything about AxB?

I keep repeating this but you still somehow don't get it. The sentence does mean AxB in BP units because BP is what's being talked about here. It's common sense, because, again, it would've been specified if it didn't. If it didn't mean BP, it would have been said "not a sum of BPs, but something involving/closer to multiplication". Or hell, they wouldn't have used the term battle power in the sentence, making it unclear what units are used for the multiplication. Again, common sense. Not a sum (of BPs), but a multiplication. I honestly don't understand how can one deny something so obvious in favor of their fan theories.
I'm most definitely not nitpicking, I'm seeing it the way it is, not the way I want it to be.

The battle powers are only mentioned in the sum part of the sentence to say that Vegetto's battle power isn't just Goku's BP + Vegeta's BP, which is what someone would think if he doesn't pay attention to power increases. The sentence only says that the power-up works as a multiplication. It doesn't explain what kind of multiplication was involved.

It apparently needs to be paraphrased because some people, unlike me (or Kanzenshuu staff which seems to know Japanese, for that matter), fail to understand what it's saying. The whole SEG section is about exact multipliers that are very straightforward. Why start being ambigous with Vegetto?

Because they are ambiguous with Vegetto. With the Super Saiyan forms, they directly said what the multiplier was. This isn't the case here. Here, they are just clear that Vegetto isn't just A+B, but they don't explain what kind of multiplication is involved. It's just says "the power up is [...] as amazing as multiplication". That's it. There is nothing more about it. But when you paraphrase it, you add more than there is to it.

[hleV]

The battle powers are only mentioned in the sum part of the sentence

Because, again and again, it wasn't necessary to add the same thing to the multiplication part and make the sentence look bad. Are you seriously this bad at correctly interpreting really simple sentences like that? Or are you just desperate to not lose this debate?

The sentence only says that the power-up works as a multiplication. It doesn't explain what kind of multiplication was involved.

No. It says it's not a sum, but a multiplication. Clearly talking about battle powers, because it would've been specified if it didn't mean BP for the multiplication part.

With the Super Saiyan forms, they directly said what the multiplier was.

Yes, because it's a constant number not related to battle power. It says power x 50, not something like 10,000,000 x 50. Same goes to Vegetto. It's power x power (with the result as amazing as BPxBP).

This isn't the case here. Here, they are just clear that Vegetto isn't just A+B, but they don't explain what kind of multiplication is involved.

Again, they do. The whole sentence (and SEG section) being about battle powers is self-explanatory.

It's just says "the power up is [...] as amazing as multiplication". That's it. There is nothing more about it. But when you paraphrase it, you add more than there is to it.

I don't add anything to it when I paraphrase it. "Not a sum of BP's but a multiplication" means "not a sum, but a multiplication, in BP units" the same way "not a multiplication of BPs, but a sum" would mean that both operations are talking about BPs. That's the way it works. You simply can't argue your theory only because it didn't add "of BP's" next to "multiplication" for obvious reasons when it's clear anyway what they were trying to say. It's your problem if obvious things aren't obvious to you.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Are you seriously this bad at correctly interpreting really simple sentences like that?

No, it's just that the sentence doesn't have one interpretation as you claim. The sentence only says that the Potara give a power-up as amazing as multiplication.

Or are you just desperate to not lose this debate?

This isn't a fight. If I believe I'm wrong, I'll admit that I'm wrong, as I've done many times in the past, even in a debate with you if you remember.

No. It says it's not a sum, but a multiplication. Clearly talking about battle powers, because it would've been specified if it didn't mean BP for the multiplication part.

It doesn't specify that the multiplication means multiplication of BP. If it wanted to refer to that, it would have been specific. Instead, it is talking about multiplication in general.

I don't add anything to it when I paraphrase it.

My bad, I got confused with Herms' paraphrasing in the other thread.

[hleV]

No. It says it's not a sum, but a multiplication. Clearly talking about battle powers, because it would've been specified if it didn't mean BP for the multiplication part.

It doesn't specify that the multiplication means multiplication of BP. If it wanted to refer to that, it would have been specific. Instead, it is talking about multiplication in general.

This is where you're completely wrong. Literally any person in the world saying something like "it's not a sum of x and y, but a multiplication" would mean a multiplication of x and y. And that's exactly what the author(s) of the guidebook meant: BP. In such sentences, it must be specified if it suddenly no longer talks about certain units (BP) (which, again, the whole section is consistent about). I've said it multiple times but there was no reason to add "BP" after "multiplication" in that statement because that's not how you make a sentence: you specify the units once and other instances are self-explanatory, unless specified otherwise. It's not a matter of interpretation because there's no other way to interpret a statement which talks about battle powers, has battle power multipliers in a not-at-all vague context, and has "Vegetto = Goku x Vegeta" in the same section, which, again, is focused on battle powers.
You're arguing a very slight chance that the author perhaps didn't express it right and the statement was supposed to be more ambigous (as in, "not a sum of BPs, but something involving multiplication"). You won't go far with this.

Since we're going in circles and my completely valid points don't seem to stand for anything as far as you're concerned, we might as well end this here. You stand on the ground that it's up to interpretation. I stand on the ground that it's not. In non-DB-power-related cases nobody would even think of arguing a similar statement -- everyone would its meaning obvious.

[Eternal Super Saiyan]

We know it's not addition. So let's not argue about that. It certainly does not however multiply both base power levels together. He'd be almost a million times stronger than Birus according to my calculations

(From my list below)

Vegito: 6,000,000,000,000,000 [base] [AxB] [6 Quadrillion]

Super Vegito: 300,000,000,000,000,000 [super saiyan] [x50] [300 Quadrillion]
600,000,000,000,000,000 [super saiyan 2] [x2] [600 Quadrillion]
2,400,000,000,000,000,000 [super saiyan 3] [x4] [2.4 Quintillion] [960,000x stronger than Birus on my list!!]

I had to google the names of these numbers because I frankly have not ever used a number beyond trillion.

[hleV]

It certainly does not however multiply both base power levels together.

It does, unless you disregard an outright statement from an official guidebook. I fully realize it's an overkill, but nothing in the series suggests it can't work. Vegetto was able to fight and talk as a candy, so his power being millions+ of times above Goku's isn't a stretch.

He'd be almost a million times stronger than Birus according to my calculations

BOG is bullshit. We have to either assume that Beerus and Godku are ridiculously strong compared to everyone else or question BOG's "trueness" to the series. Even if Vegetto wasn't BPxBP, the comparison of Beerus and Goku & Vegeta's fusion that Goku made in the extended version of BOG makes very little sense: how can Goku, who can't sense Beerus' godly ki, compare Beerus to Vegetto (or hypothetical Metamorian fusion of Goku and Vegeta), who is leaps and bounds above Goku? Beerus only manhandled SS3 Goku. How can he know that Beerus would do the same (maybe not to such a great extent, but still) to Gogeta/Vegetto?

[DBZGTKOSDH]

The thing is, you are not the author to say what is in his mind. Your interpretation works, but it's not the only one. The sentence could have been written this way, but it's not the only meaning it could have. And that's what you don't get. The sentence as it is could very well & logically mean what I'm saying: It's just talking about multiplication in general. If they wanted to say what you mean, they would have says "multiplication of their battle powers" or "multiplication of them". But they just say that the power-up of the Potara is a multiplication, nothing more.

It's not a matter of interpretation because there's no other way to interpret a statement which talks about battle powers, has battle power multipliers in a not-at-all vague context, and has "Vegetto = Goku x Vegeta" in the same section, which, again, is focused on battle powers.

It's not a section focused on battle powers, it's a section focused on the Potara in general. The "Goku x Vegeta = Vegetto" is on top of manga panels that describe how Goku & Vegeta make Vegetto, and none of these say anything about battle powers.

Heck, your interpretation even contradicts the manga. Vegetto originally thought that he needed Super Saiyan to beat Boo. He later admits that he is stronger than he thought (or rather, he didn't expect Boo to be that weak compared to him), but going by what you claim that SEG states, it means that he fell way, way, waaaa~aaay too far off, which makes him look really stupid. Except if you want to say that he was created with his power completely suppressed.

how can Goku, who can't sense Beerus' godly ki, compare Beerus to Vegetto (or hypothetical Metamorian fusion of Goku and Vegeta), who is leaps and bounds above Goku? Beerus only manhandled SS3 Goku. How can he know that Beerus would do the same (maybe not to such a great extent, but still) to Gogeta/Vegetto?

Same way they could estimate how strong Dabra was by his movements, same way Karin & Goku could estimate how strong Cell was without seeing his full power, and same way that Kuririn could guess that Trunks was holding back. Besides, he wasn't even completely sure if that he said was true, since he said that perhaps that wouldn't be enough. However, his statement as about Super Saiyan God's unimaginable realm implies that Beerus was much stronger than he thought.

[hleV]

The thing is, you are not the author to say what is in his mind. Your interpretation works, but it's not the only one.

It is the only one. You don't simply say "it's not a sum of A and B, but a multiplication (of I DON'T KNOW WHAT, WHO CARES)". You either specify the units, or you mean the units that are being talked about (in this case, A and B). It's how it works. Deal with it.

The sentence could have been written this way, but it's not the only meaning it could have.

It's the only meaning and I explained you why, multiple times.

If they wanted to say what you mean, they would have says "multiplication of their battle powers"

For the 9001st time, they didn't need to specify that the multiplication part is about BP because it was already specified for the sum part. Unless specified otherwise, the whole statement is talking about the already-specified units (BP). It doesn't have to be "it's not a sum of A and B, but a multiplication of A and B" (see how retarded this sentence becomes?), because it's already clear (to anyone in right mind, to be blunt) that it's talking about A and B.

If you wanna keep this up, at least attempt to refer to and invalidate my points instead of going "it's up to interpretation" and "it doesn't mean BP" every single time.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

You don't simply say "it's not a sum of A and B, but a multiplication (of I DON'T KNOW WHAT, WHO CARES)".

Yes you do, when you don't want to be specific about it.

It's the only meaning and I explained you why, multiple times.

You explain how you interpret the line, and treat your interpretation as the holy truth.

For the 9001st time, they didn't need to specify that the multiplication part is about BP because it was already specified for the sum part. Unless specified otherwise, the whole statement is talking about the already-specified units (BP). It doesn't have to be "it's not a sum of A and B, but a multiplication of A and B" (see how retarded this sentence becomes?), because it's already clear (to anyone in right mind, to be blunt) that it's talking about A and B.

If they wanted to keep the sentence from being retarded, they would have said "it's not a sum of the battle powers, but a multiplication of them". But they didn't, they only said that it's a multiplication. But a multiplication of what? A multiplication of the sum of the battle powers with a number? A multiplication of two battle powers with each other? This is what isn't explained.

[hleV]

You don't simply say "it's not a sum of A and B, but a multiplication (of I DON'T KNOW WHAT, WHO CARES)".

Yes you do, when you don't want to be specific about it.

When you don't want to be specific about it, you specify that there are no specific units. Again, it would've been something along the lines of "but something involving multiplication". Yet it's "not a sum, but a multiplication" of the units specified in the very sentence.

If they wanted to keep the sentence from being retarded, they would have said "it's not a sum of the battle powers, but a multiplication of them".

They could've done that, but didn't have to, because repeating units over and over again is not required for the reader to understand what's being talked about.

they only said that it's a multiplication. But a multiplication of what? A multiplication of the sum of the battle powers with a number? A multiplication of two battle powers with each other? This is what isn't explained.

A multiplication of battle powers, because that's what the statement and context are about.

[xmysticgohanx]

I thought it was obvious the guidebooks were talking about bp because they never talked about anything else. @Kaboom I don't agree with one of the reasons you use to disprove Goku x Vegeta which is: bp is a measurement made millenia after the potara. SSJ is a clean 50x boost to bp and that was also made, or rather achieved, before scouters. Anyway, Goku x Vegeta can't work because that would make base Vegetto >>>>> Buuhan.

Saiyan Arc Vegetto would at a super duper super duper super dupe... low end be at (reasoning shall be added if asked for) 1,792,000. KKx4 would be 7,168,000.

[hleV]

I thought it was obvious the guidebooks were talking about bp because they never talked about anything else. @Kaboom I don't agree with one of the reasons you use to disprove Goku x Vegeta which is: bp is a measurement made millenia after the potara. SSJ is a clean 50x boost to bp and that was also made, or rather achieved, before scouters. Anyway, Goku x Vegeta can't work because that would make base Vegetto >>>>> Buuhan.

Saiyan Arc Vegetto would at a super duper super duper super dupe... low end be at (reasoning shall be added if asked for) 1,792,000. KKx4 would be 7,168,000.

You're missing something. Vegetto is stated to be as amazing as if you multiplied Goku and Vegeta's BP, it doesn't state that it's the actual formula (because it can't be for obvious reasons). Also nothing wrong with Vegetto being an overkill for Boohan.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

When you don't want to be specific about it, you specify that there are no specific units.

Τhey only talked about battle powers when referring to the sum part, because they wanted to be specific that Vegetto wasn't just A+B.

Also, the word multiplication is inside "". Wouldn't that separate it from the BPs part?

They could've done that, but didn't have to, because repeating units over and over again is not required for the reader to understand what's being talked about.

But if it was worded the way I worded it, it wouldn't be repeating the same thing over & over again. It would have been specific without any weirdness in the statement.

A multiplication of battle powers, because that's what the statement and context are about.

No, that's what you believe.

Also nothing wrong with Vegetto being an overkill for Boohan.

There is, actually. As I said a while ago:

Vegetto originally thought that he needed Super Saiyan to beat Boo. He later admits that he is stronger than he thought (or rather, he didn't expect Boo to be that weak compared to him), but going by what you claim that SEG states, it means that he fell way, way, waaaa~aaay too far off, which makes him look really stupid. Except if you want to say that he was created with his power completely suppressed.

[Kaboom]

Again, we're going far too off-topic with this. If anyone would like to keep discussing the whole "Goku X Vegeta = Vegetto" thing in depth, please create a new topic for it.

[hleV]

Also nothing wrong with Vegetto being an overkill for Boohan.

There is, actually. As I said a while ago:

Vegetto originally thought that he needed Super Saiyan to beat Boo. He later admits that he is stronger than he thought (or rather, he didn't expect Boo to be that weak compared to him), but going by what you claim that SEG states, it means that he fell way, way, waaaa~aaay too far off, which makes him look really stupid. Except if you want to say that he was created with his power completely suppressed.

I have no idea what you're talking about. Vegetto didn't know how strong he was at all at first, that's why he went SS just to be safe (and cool). If he cought at least a glimpse of his power (don't think it can work that way, why would it only be a glimpse and not the real thing?), he wouldn't have went SS (or he would've, to look cool and provoke Boo). Your argument is ridiculous.

Regarding Vegetto = Goku x Vegeta, you're wrong and people in the right minds should see what the statement actually means. I no longer want to waste my time explaining it to a single person who fails to correctly interpret a perfectly simple statement and is not aware how sentences that involve numbers/units work. I've explained it to you. Kanzenshuu staff has explained it to you. The statement is there. Perhaps someday you'll understand. Take care.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Vegetto didn't know how strong he was at all at first, that's why he went SS just to be safe (and cool).

How is that possible? He stayed long enough in base to introduce himself, and he can sense his power. Especially if he was as strong as you claim him to be, such immense power would have instantly caught his attention.

Regarding Vegetto = Goku x Vegeta, you're wrong and people in the right minds should see what the statement actually means. I no longer want to waste my time explaining it to a single person who fails to correctly interpret a perfectly simple statement and is not aware how sentences that involve numbers/units work. I've explained it to you. Kanzenshuu staff has explained it to you. The statement is there. Perhaps someday you'll understand. Take care.

The Kanzenshuu staff didn't care to hear my point (so much that they didn't even get my point, but it may also be my fault in part because I can't express my points perfectly since English isn't my language) because they don't care about battle powers. Their (and yours) interpretation is not a fact. You can't tell me that I don't have the "right mind", while you stubbornly insist that your opinion is a fact, when it's not.

[VegettoEX]

We got your point loud and clear, and our personal interests do not affect how we document things or present them on the website itself. Whether English is your second language or not, you continue to be rude about it and dismiss what is explained to you about the context. The four of us on staff are not going to engage in these discussions with you further, and we're not going to let you disparage us, the site, or the community you're talking with over these points.

On a personal level, I'm simply not going to let these conversations devolve into "well what did you REALLY mean by 'the' in that translation?!" It's getting near that point, and it's absurd. I'm done with "Here's what it says / No but really it says this / We hear you, but here's what it says / You're wrong because what I know it to mean is this / We're just repeating ourselves; here's what it says / OK but..."