Goku as the Main Character

[ABED]

I'm terrible with thread titles, so if someone can think of something better, feel free to suggest something.

The idea of this thread is to discuss what seems to be a common opinion on this forum, Goku should've ceded his spot as the protagonist of the story to someone else like Gohan or even Uub. One commenter even claimed a big reason they didn't like GT was because he felt like the end of Z lead him to believe Uub should've been the main hero. What are your thoughts on the subject?

Mine are simple, I like Goku as the main hero throughout the entirety of the shows, and have no interest in someone taking over the role. For one, we've been with him from the beginning, so I don't have an interest in someone taking over as the main character after nearly 400 episodes, much less nearly 500. I am all for other characters having more to do as it makes for a good series to have an ensemble and give other characters than just the lead important things to do, however, the lead is should remain the focus unless you're making an ensemble show, which DB has never been.

[Eire]

I used to feel bad about Goku being the main character. But after last re-watching I feel that I like him with all his flaws and I'm happy that he was present in whole series.
So the thing I wanted to wasn't getting rid of Goku. I just longed for ensemble cast. I wanted anyone else to do anything significant, I wanted any power-up given to someone else to be significant to the plot. Wanting anyone else to have a final say would be probably too much, but why not moving Goku to mentor/trainer type? Why not showing that maybe Uub and Pan have a raw power but can't rival his expirience in combat? To give Vegeta a significant part in victory? To make Goku step aside for a moment, remove him form spotlight (IMHO movie 8 could be so much better if the whole drama had been based solely on Paraga's revange against Vegeta Royal Family)? The show as long, there were so many possibilities, but everything was boiled down to format where all other characters served as ornaments.

[fadeddreams5]

But here's the thing, Goku was not even the main focus in most of Z. In the Saiyan saga, he was dead. In the Namek saga, he was in space training. In the Android/Cell saga, he had a heart virus. And in the Buu saga, he was dead again. When he DID show up to fight, that's when things got exciting, but the stories weren't focused on him as this "main lead". It's just he always ended up beating the opponent. People just get angry that he didn't "pass the torch" to Gohan after the Cell saga. That's the only instance Goku shouldn't have been the one to defeat a villain.

Also, in all of the Z arcs, other characters got multiples chances to shine. Gohan, Krillin, and Vegeta had a ball in the Namek arc, as well as Piccolo when he fused with Nail. Vegeta, Trunks, Piccolo, and even Tien had great moments in the Android arc. The Buu arc put the focus on shitty characters, imo, but it wasn't just Goku all day by a long shot.

GT, on the other hand, is a Goku fest. Every character feels so incredibly irrelevant because Goku is always around. And to make it worse, it's Kid Goku. In Dragon Ball, Goku may have been the main focus, but he didn't have the power to blow up planets by farting on them. It's just bad. I guess when people claim they wish someone else would take Goku's role, it's another way of saying they want a fresh start, where other characters can also drive the story and not just get their asses beat until Goku arrives.

[TheUltimateVegito]

But here's the thing, Goku was not even the main focus in most of Z. In the Saiyan saga, he was dead. In the Namek saga, he was in space training. In the Android/Cell saga, he had a heart virus. And in the Buu saga, he was dead again. When he DID show up to fight, that's when things got exciting, but the stories weren't focused on him as this "main lead". It's just he always ended up beating the opponent. People just get angry that he didn't "pass the torch" to Gohan after the Cell saga. That's the only instance Goku shouldn't have been the one to defeat a villain.

Also, in all of the Z arcs, other characters got multiples chances to shine. Gohan, Krillin, and Vegeta had a ball in the Namek arc, as well as Piccolo when he fused with Nail. Vegeta, Trunks, Piccolo, and even Tenshinhan had great moments in the Android arc. The Buu arc put the focus on shitty characters, imo, but it wasn't just Goku all day by a long shot.

GT, on the other hand, is a Goku fest. Every character feels so incredibly irrelevant because Goku is always around. And to make it worse, it's Kid Goku. In Dragon Ball, Goku may have been the main focus, but he didn't have the power to blow up planets by farting on them. It's just bad. I guess when people claim they wish someone else would take Goku's role, it's another way of saying they want a fresh start, where other characters can also drive the story and not just get their asses beat until Goku arrives.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

Gohan was the only character that would've been truly fit to take the lead. But even then it's debatable whether or not him taking the lead after the Cell Games would've been the best thing to do. Uub would've been suitable too, just not as much.

[Marco Polo]

GT should have started with Goku Jr., with Goku as this strange ghost-like entity from the past.

[ABED]

Goku was dead, but he wasn't off screen. The story followed his exploits in the afterlife.

GT, on the other hand, is a Goku fest.

Why is that necessarily a bad thing? He's once again the main character and DB also focused on Goku, which was arguably the best series of the three. It's not even kid Goku, it's him in his young body. And why is that even a bad thing? Kid Goku was great.

it's another way of saying they want a fresh start, where other characters can also drive the story and not just get their asses beat until Goku arrives.

You brought up how Z let other characters shine, but it's the one where the above formula happens the most.

I just longed for ensemble cast.

Pretty much the same here, though I still want Goku as the main character. A good example would be to let other characters take on each of the different evil dragons.

[Eire]

Kid Goku was great once. Namely in DB. In GT he was old cold dish.

[Nightzus]

But here's the thing, Goku was not even the main focus in most of Z. In the Saiyan saga, he was dead. In the Namek saga, he was in space training. In the Android/Cell saga, he had a heart virus. And in the Buu saga, he was dead again. When he DID show up to fight, that's when things got exciting, but the stories weren't focused on him as this "main lead". It's just he always ended up beating the opponent. People just get angry that he didn't "pass the torch" to Gohan after the Cell saga. That's the only instance Goku shouldn't have been the one to defeat a villain.

Also, in all of the Z arcs, other characters got multiples chances to shine. Gohan, Krillin, and Vegeta had a ball in the Namek arc, as well as Piccolo when he fused with Nail. Vegeta, Trunks, Piccolo, and even Tenshinhan had great moments in the Android arc. The Buu arc put the focus on shitty characters, imo, but it wasn't just Goku all day by a long shot.

GT, on the other hand, is a Goku fest. Every character feels so incredibly irrelevant because Goku is always around. And to make it worse, it's Kid Goku. In Dragon Ball, Goku may have been the main focus, but he didn't have the power to blow up planets by farting on them. It's just bad. I guess when people claim they wish someone else would take Goku's role, it's another way of saying they want a fresh start, where other characters can also drive the story and not just get their asses beat until Goku arrives.

Exactly what I think! Plus it feels like Gohan was actually intended to be the lead character after Cell but couldn't really take the role... He's way better as receiving power-ups like SSJ2 or Ultimate and then being part of a good fight than anything else...

And I really like how other characters seem both being behind Gokū AND having some character development and interesting fights/moments.

[ABED]

Kid Goku was great once. Namely in DB. In GT he was old cold dish.

Good thing then that he wasn't a kid, and I don't see how he was cold fish, he never fundamentally changed when he physically grew up.

[Chuquita]

I like Gokû as main character. He's fun, he's cute, and he's got some badass moments too.
I agree that Gokû really isn't the main in Z the way he is in DB. If anything, Kuririn, Gohan, and Vegeta (Team 3-Star! :3) are the main characters of Z. In Z, Gokû is constantly being taken out of the action, but when he does re-appear, I always enjoy it.
The way Toriyama draws him when he finally wakes up from his illness and is feeling all better is wonderful. :3
I especially loved how Gokû was written in BOG. That's part of why I'm so looking forward to him in「F」.
He's my favorite Dragon Ball character (Vegeta is a close second.), it wouldn't be Dragon Ball without him for me.

GT was executed so poorly, I can't really count it, imo. I was sad they turned him into a kid and never turned him back, but I did like that he recovered his tail.

[NitroEX]

I like Goku just as much as the next fan but I do believe there is evidence pointing toward Gohan being groomed for more than just a side character role but as we know, that never played out fully. I can only speculate what the reason for that was, maybe it was because Toriyama knew he had botched Gohan's character during the Buu arc or fans of the Manga weren't reacting as expected to Gohan, I don't know. One thing I do know is that Toriyama was influenced by people he knew during his creation of the Android arc and repeatedly changed and created new villains based on the opinions of others so I think it's plausible he changed his mind about Gohan or was persuaded otherwise to go with Goku for the series' end.

Admittedly it's a difficult theory to argue because Goku is quite clearly the main character of Dragonball, the various movies and GT. It's easy to see why people would assume Gohan was never intended for anything more than Goku's second fiddle based on what we got afterwards but you have to keep in mind that a lot of that stuff was a by-product of the Manga and they're just following in the direction Toriyama chose to go in.

Goku was dead, but he wasn't off screen. The story followed his exploits in the afterlife.

True but you could argue that the more important (long term) story events were happening on Earth with Gohan bonding with Piccolo as well as the fight with the Saiyans. Not only does Gohan's character develop from a crybaby into somewhat of a warrior but he also changes Piccolo permanently into a good guy. During the fight Gohan is shown the consequences of his failure to act with his friends dying on the battlefield. This is all character building stuff that plays a part later in the story as opposed to Goku getting a superficial power up and returning to save the day. Even after the Goku Vegeta fight it's still Gohan who bounces the Spirit Bomb back to Vegeta and Gohan who crushes and inadvertently defeats Vegeta as a great ape, not Goku.

It's just he [Goku] always ended up beating the opponent.

Besides Buu and (arguably) Freeza Goku didn't defeat the major bad guys in the series. It's always others finishing them off.

let me sum this up by saying; A lot of Goku's appeal comes from beating obstacles and achieving goals throughout the story such as beating Piccolo and winning the 23rd(?) Tournament (goals that he'd previously struggled to achieve). From there we fast forward to him avenging the Saiyan race by humiliating Freeza, the tyrant of the universe, and becoming a SSJ. What else could they come up for him next that would top that? Other than fighting Gods... Not much.

Point is, after all that nothing he did would be as compelling as what he'd achieved previously so it was the perfect time for Goku to move aside and let Gohan take the reigns (which he did) by defeating Cell who was a culmination of all previous foes. Unfortunately all that potential was squandered during the Buu arc when Gohan fell from grace and Goku was reintroduced twice to try and pick up the pieces. While I can still enjoy how the story turned out I don't think this was the plan all along.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

One commenter even claimed a big reason they didn't like GT was because he felt like the end of Z lead him to believe Uub should've been the main hero.

I don't know if you are referring to me (since we had a small debate about that), but I actually like GT. It's just that I would have liked to see more of Oob.

[TheLegend23]

Dragon ball was the story of Goku. Without him being the main character then you got yourself a spin-off. It has to be him.

[Kid Buu]

Gohan could have worked but the Cell arc botched it by shoehorning him in.

[Jodaku]

I feel Goku is managed pretty well all in all by Toriyama as the main character. The first part of DB is undoubtedly Goku's story, both in terms of focus and actually doing most of the leg work to carry the plot along but by the time the Z-era arrived, Toriyama was pretty comfortable with having other characters carry the story forward, doing their fair share of the heavy lifting of the plot and it became more of an ensemble cast to me, even if Goku was still an unseen focus at times.

It's kind of like Pro Wrestling. Goku started as a main eventer, and while he never really truly dropped down to mid-card to let others shine exclusively as some may want, he had others such as Piccolo, Vegeta and Gohan who were eventually able to rise to main event status with him. Sure not all stayed there consistently, and some dropped back into the mid-card, but Goku was never really the sole main eventer like he was for the most part in pre-Z <and GT>.

And to take this further; Krillin is like that dependable upper mid-card act that can be pushed up the card into the main event scene to support the main event guys and he'll do his role well and won't let you down. And future Trunks is like a wrestler that had an amazing debut that suggest that he'll instantly be a main event guy but ultimately settles in the upper mid-card with a few shining moments but nothing that makes the same impact as their debut <i.e. Kane or Jerichio>. And Gohan is the guy who had a slow-burn push to the main event. He paid his dues in the mid-card/upper mid-card in the Saiyan and Namek arcs before getting his main event push in the Cell Games, where it appeared he was going to be THE guy to succeed Goku, but obviously that didn't quite work out in the long run.

Sorry if this makes no sense to those not overly familar with Pro Wrestling...I kinda got carried away there...

[TheUltimateVegito]

Gohan could have worked but the Cell arc botched it by shoehorning him in.

They didn't shoehorn him in, really. He was pretty active throughout the arc but didn't have the opportunity to perform something major until to Cell Games, mainly because he was too weak before then. Heck, he even saved Piccolo similarly to how he saved Vegeta in the Namek arc.

And the moments where he actually did something were key moments of the arc, these moment set the stage perfectly for what should've been Gohan's time to take over for a number of reasons:

1. Goku training Gohan in the ROSAT - Not only did they train together, but Goku passed down the MSSJ form (which he invented) to him in a room that Goku himself couldn't handle as a child (Symbolism). Also, keep in mind that it was easier for Gohan to achieve the regular SSJ form since he was a hybrid.

2. The Cell Games - Let's see... Goku finally decides to give up in a recreation of the World Tournament, which was a big part of Goku's adventures, which represents Goku's rise to becoming the strongest on the planet, symbolizing the end of Goku... for Gohan. Gohan was then able to unleash his hidden power that was built up since he was debuted because of the MSSJ form, meaning that Goku passing down what he knows allowed Gohan to unleash his full potential and finally become the strongest being on the planet. (Symbolism)

3. SSJ2 Gohan - We learn more about Gohan as a character, about how he resents meaningless fighting in comparison to Goku. Also, it took 16's speech (Android 8 and Goku symbolism) to make Gohan go SSJ2 in arguably the greatest transformation scene in the entire series. And all the build up and wait for SSJ2 Gohan was worth it as we got a sadistic, merciless, badass warrior.

And that's without mentioning the Father-son-Kamehameha which was symbolism galore!

Just because Gohan took a break, doesn't mean he was shoehorned. It just allowed room for other characters to shine, while saving the best for last.

I mean, would you rather have them use Gohan similarly to how he was used in the Saiyan/Namek arcs? I wouldn't, since it would get redundant at that point. It's like saying we need another saga with Super Saiyan talk similar to the Namek saga. It would get repetitive.

The thing is, they managed to have Goku pass down the torch to Gohan while staying true to both their characters and the overall structure of the show. This deserves great praise as they're not your average costumed hero (well, at least Goku wasn't), making it a lot tougher to pull off.

[ABED]

True but you could argue that the more important (long term) story events were happening on Earth with Gohan bonding with Piccolo as well as the fight with the Saiyans. Not only does Gohan's character develop from a crybaby into somewhat of a warrior but he also changes Piccolo permanently into a good guy. During the fight Gohan is shown the consequences of his failure to act with his friends dying on the battlefield. This is all character building stuff that plays a part later in the story as opposed to Goku getting a superficial power up and returning to save the day. Even after the Goku Vegeta fight it's still Gohan who bounces the Spirit Bomb back to Vegeta and Gohan who crushes and inadvertently defeats Vegeta as a great ape, not Goku.

I don't think Gohan's story was more important to that arc. He took part of the spotlight naturally because he's a new character, but Goku had just learned of his true lineage, and the central conflict was between Goku and the members of his race. Goku's power up wasn't superficial. This incessant need of some to minimize Goku's contributions to the series is odd. Gohan would be dead if not for his father and there would be no Genkidama to bounce back had it not been for him. Let's not forget Kuririn's or Yajirobe's contributions. All of them were important, but Goku was still the central character to the story. It was all leading to his confrontation with Vegeta.

He was pretty active throughout the arc

Not really. He carries Bulma and Yajirobe around, then trains with is father. My issue with Gohan as the hero is how he needs his hand held constantly, even until the end, which doesn't make for the most interesting hero.

All of this torch passing talk is nonsense. No one passed the torch to Goku. He took the torch, nothing was given to him, and being the Earth's hero wasn't a title that he was ever after. It just happened. Gohan's a good character but he's Robin or Nightwing. He can have interesting adventures in his own right, but I prefer Batman.

Toriyama was pretty comfortable with having other characters carry the story forward, doing their fair share of the heavy lifting of the plot and it became more of an ensemble cast to me, even if Goku was still an unseen focus at times.

This I'm perfectly fine with. Yu Yu Hakusho did a great job of giving all of the main characters something to do even if Yusuke was ultimately the one to defeat the big bad.

It's just that I would have liked to see more of Oob.

I don't remember who wrote it, and I have no problem giving Uub something to do, but I don't want him as the main character. It's like when TV shows lose their main character but continue on, it's never as interesting.

By the way I know I use Batman a lot as an example but I like the character a lot and he's well known so it works as a common frame of reference.

[Rocketman]

GT/bog Goku sucking the energy out of the others so he can keep being the center of attention is a pretty good metaphor for the whole thing.


"Trunks, Gotenks!"
"NO YOU MUST FEEED MEEEE *dr zoidberg eating noises*"

[TheUltimateVegito]

He was pretty active throughout the arc
Not really. He carries Bulma and Yajirobe around, then trains with is father. My issue with Gohan as the hero is how he needs his hand held constantly, even until the end, which doesn't make for the most interesting hero.

All of this torch passing talk is nonsense. No one passed the torch to Goku. He took the torch, nothing was given to him, and being the Earth's hero wasn't a title that he was ever after. It just happened. Gohan's a good character but he's Robin or Nightwing. He can have interesting adventures in his own right, but I prefer Batman.

By active I mean he was actually doing stuff, whether it be of significance or not. I mean, it's not like he disappeared completely until he trained with Goku. Also, the fact that he took a hiatus doesn't mean he's no longer interesting. He still had the build up from the previous sagas going for him. It's like saying Goku was no longer an interesting hero because he had a heart virus.

By passing the torch, I mean passing the leading role/legacy to his son. Yes, Goku didn't technically have some blatant physical form of a torch to pass on (Although, he wouldn't have been as strong as he was if he wasn't for training with other masters) but that wasn't needed, with all the events that transpired during Goku and Gohan's part of the saga. Also, Goku always cared for protecting the earth, whether he be leading or not. Hell, one of the main reasons for him staying dead was because of Gohan's hidden power, which Goku helped unleash.

[DBZAOTA482]

Throughout Dragon Ball to the Freeza Saga, I thought was perfect as the main character. Fairly dynamic (moreso in DB), had a great personality, and an overall good role-model. By the Cell Saga, Toriyama-sensei seem to have went every direction he could with his character and as a result, he was a bit bland as the main character but Toriyama-sensei seemed to have knew this and gave more focus to other characters instead. Also a lot of people may think of him as a bad father for his decision to rely on Gohan's hidden powers to beat Cell but for him to come in terms with his errors and actually be willing to toss aside his pride is not what I'd call a bad father. Also that sacrifice... the feels.

As for the Boo Saga.... a bit of a douche but he had his moments (more in the anime than manga) but as for GT, I thoroughly disliked him. Way too powerful, and too much emphasis on the manchild "dumbass" aspect of his character.