EoZ Pan

[Kaboom]

Tell that to Goten, Trunks, and Gohan.

Goten and Trunks are a bit of an abnormal case, but Gohan actually has his power for a reason. Part of it is just natural demi-Saiyan specialness, but he actually gained power by training, and receiving healing boosts, and all that jazz, just like Goku and Vegeta did.

I don't think Pan is as strong as them. It's when people claim that she's literally thousands of times weaker than them that I disagree. Goten had a base battle power in the tens of millions by age seven.

Well if the young Future Trunks we saw is any indication, these kids have the potential to increase in power and "catch up" to their elders very, very quickly. If she keeps training and gains Super Saiyan, I wouldn't be surprised if Pan were to end up just as strong or stronger than Goten and Trunks by the time she's 7 or 8.

(As a partial side-note, this is why I don't think it's wise to look at training increases in terms of multiplication. It downplays what are often actually very impressive gains.)

But that's kind of what I'm getting at. She's a few years behind them, and not there yet. Putting her in "only" the tens of thousands in power level already at such a young age and with no prior training is very, very generous as far as I figure.

He wasn't just a Dragon-type Namekian, he was GOD. Not a god, just God. "Dragon-type Namekian" and "Saiyan" are useless in this context anyway, because that happened well before Saiyans or Namekians were a thing.

If we're going to be looking back to old parts of the series to compare and contrast with newer parts, we can't just ignore the future developments. It was revealed to us that the bulk of Kami's power, abilities, and connection to the Dragon Balls were a result of him being a Namekian. Him being "God" is barely anything more than a job title. In the grand scope of things, becoming "stronger than God" is not a big deal.

[Also, Piccolo was a Fighting-type)

Piccolo Junior, yes. But King Piccolo was just an "evil clone" of Kami, who was a Dragon-type.

[singsing]

Not gonna lie from what we've seen of Pan's feats she could probably be as low as 21st BT Goku.

[ZombieVito]

I personally put her in the tens of thousands, specifically 40,000. Why that number specifically? Because it correlates to her age (4 years old). Other than that it's almost entirely arbitrary.

We use kinda the same logic

I just add three more zeros in there.

[CatouttaHell]

I go by: Pure Boo >= base Goku (EoZ) == base Vegeta (EoZ) >/>> base Pan >>> Good Boo

She IS the daughter of Ultimate Gohan, and presumably the future rival of Oob, who was born with the power of Pure Boo and is being personally trained by Son Goku.

Son said she probably wouldn't win the tournament but would go pretty far so she should be above Goten/Trunks at the least, at most possibly in rivaling range of Vegeta/Goku/Oob and thus far above Good Boo.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I have her at 10.000.

She definitely has a huge potential to get very strong, but she is still too young, and she doesn't live in dangerous times to do hard training like Gohan in her age, nor does she have a friend to play fight & master SS in the process like Goten & Trunks in her age, so she couldn't have been doing a lot of training in her life. So, having her at 10.000 sounds like being very generous IMO.

[Eternal Super Saiyan]

C'mon guys, the entire Dragon Ball and Z series revolved around powerful children.

Pan's not much younger than Gohan was during the Raditz battle. (4.5 yrs)
At almost 6 years of age, Gohan achieved overpowering 2nd Form Frieza at over 1 million.

Goku in DB at age 12 (he really looks 6-8 until he turned 18.. lol) was able to rival the world's greatest martial artists.

[singsing]

C'mon guys, the entire Dragon Ball and Z series revolved around powerful children.

Pan's not much younger than Gohan was during the Raditz battle. (4.5 yrs)
At almost 6 years of age, Gohan achieved overpowering 2nd Form Freeza at over 1 million.

Goku in DB at age 12 (he really looks 6-8 until he turned 18.. lol) was able to rival the world's greatest martial artists.

Because they went through rigorous, life threatening training and fought hard for their power. Pan did... eh.

[Saiga]

Bullshit, Goku wore a turtle shell for a few months and spent 3 days chasing a cat, and he could take out the entire RRA base.

Gohan got abandoned in the wilderness for 6 months, beaten for another 6 months, and then coasted on zenkai and potential unlocking.

[Eternal Super Saiyan]

4.5 year old Gohan did nothing but read books and learn, and he somehow brought out a power level of 1,307 and badly hurt Raditz. Goku stated Chi-Chi didn't want Gohan to train and become a fighter originally. So I take it before Raditz, Gohan never did fighting.

[SSJ God Gogeta]

Gohan did do some training here and there, but the main reason he became so strong was because of his bullshit "hidden potential" being unlocked every saga...

[RandomGuy96]

Gohan did do some training here and there, but the main reason he became so strong was because of his bullshit "hidden potential" being unlocked every saga...

The same applies to Goku and Vegeta, so...

As mentioned, Goku did one year of training, got beat up once, and then chased a cat for three days, and suddenly he was strong enough to curb-stomp the greatest martial artists on Earth (Tao and Devilman get the shit kicked out of them, everyone else is one-shot garbage) and dispatch dozens of heavily armed terrorists that everyone else was scared of with only a few scratches to show for it. Then he did another year of mountain training in between 22nd Budokai and the destruction of the RRA, and this shot him up to being the strongest mortal in the entire world, to the point that he can one-shot everyone but Tenshinhan and curb-stomp powerful demon warriors (including one who slaughtered dozens of other martial artists effortlessly).

This changed with the arrival of Piccolo Daimao... for like five minutes, because Goku proceeded to drink some magic water, gain a huge power boost, and punch Daimao to death. The most powerful being in the history of the planet (or at least we thought so at the time), and Goku was able to beat him death just by drinking magic water that was explicitly stated not to exist earlier. Kid Goku didn't work hard for shit.

[SSJ God Gogeta]

I'm not saying Goku and Vegeta don't get their fair share of freebie power ups, but compared to someone like Gohan.

Both Goku and Vegeta worked for their power since day one. Throughout the story they did get freebie power ups, an example like you said the magic water. But I feel like Goku earned it for all his hard work with his past training etc., not to mention that this freebie power up is poison and that it's not just a given, he needs to survive it in order to get the boost. Unlike Gohan who just needs to stand still and let an old slug man put his hand on him for a few seconds and boom he got a boost.

Now as I said before, Gohan did do training. But even so, it's nowhere near as much as Goku or Vegeta, thanks to Chi Chi etc. etc. Not to mention he was already born with a
power level far surpassing almost everyone at that point in the story, and without a single day of training or anything.

To me Goku and Vegeta's power ups are more spread out and don't seem like too much of a given unlike Gohan's which happen every saga in Z and are achieved extremely simple.

[dae428]

Wasn't this topic done before?

Anyways, I'd have to put her as easily around Kid Boo's level if not several stronger. I mean c'mon guys she's able to train with Goku who we can only imagine is at least 50,000 times stronger than Kid Boo at this point given that he's had 10 whole years to train after beating Kid Boo in the past. We also can't forget about the zenkai boosts and gravity training and Saiyan genetics, and magic water that Pan is sure to be influenced by. Plus she was able to defeat Goten who had in turn defeated Mr. Boo. I mean I wouldn't be surprised if Toriyama later had baby Pan appear in the new Freeza movie and go at least super saiyan 2 and beat up most of Freeza's army while a sad Muten Roshi, Piccolo, Tenshinhan, Yamcha, and Kururin watch in horror at the massacre in front of them. By the EoZ Pan probably has the ability to go super saiyan 3 while Goku is probably able to super saiyan god 3 which is 9 billion times stronger than super saiyan god.

In all seriousness though, I just can't see Pan as being as strong as most people have suggested. Any actual training she's done with Goku would probably be akin to a grandfather playing around with his granddaughter. We've seen nothing to indicate that Pan has any power even capable of what Namek arc Gohan had. Heck as Kamicollo said earlier at most I'd see her as having the same power of Goku when he battled Tenshinhan for the first time. This is just me though.

[RandomGuy96]

But I feel like Goku earned it for all his hard work with his past training etc., not to mention that this freebie power up is poison and that it's not just a given, he needs to survive it in order to get the boost. Unlike Gohan who just needs to stand still and let an old slug man put his hand on him for a few seconds and boom he got a boost.

Do you know how absolutely agonizing it is to sit still for that long? Especially when you're family's dying as that happens?

Both Goku and Vegeta worked for their power since day one. Throughout the story they did get freebie power ups, an example like you said the magic water.

When we're first introduced to Vegeta, he's the strongest guy in the universe despite never really training (while he continues to believe that training is useless, Gohan trains in the wilderness). This continues into the Namek arc, where he receives many freebie power-ups to eventually outstrip everyone except Freeza and Goku. Then he trains for the androids (like Gohan), then trains in the ROSAT (like Gohan), then he trains between Cell and Buu before receiving ANOTHER freebie power-up.

Past Daimao, which I already mentioned, Goku does one year of intense training on Kaio's (a period where Gohan was also training), then receives many freebie power-ups in the Namek arc to become way stronger than everybody else. Then he trained for the androids (with Gohan), then in the ROSAT (with Gohan), then during the Cell-Buu gap. If you're going to complain about Gohan getting stronger than Goku despite Goku having a few years of training on his son, then why aren't you complaining about Goku effortlessly surpassing the most powerful martial artists in the world who are literally hundreds of his years his seniors in just one year?

To me Goku and Vegeta's power ups are more spread out and don't seem like too much of a given unlike Gohan's which happen every saga in Z and are achieved extremely simple.

Vegeta:
-Doesn't need any power-ups in the first arc, because he was just born stronger than everyone else.
-Gets bullshit power-up after bullshit power-up in the Namek arc. Extremely easily. He gets four of them, to be exact. The first two have relatively minor boosts. The last two make him many times stronger.
-Gets another free power-up in the Buu arc with literally no restrictions, downsides, or costs.

Goku:
-Gets a cheap improbably effective training power-up in the RRA arc, where he gets many times stronger after chasing a cat for three days.
-Becomes stronger than everyone on the day of the 22nd Budokai/Piccolo's defeat by drinking water, which unlocks his hidden power (sound familiar?).
-Acquires an incredibly broken technique that multiplies his power whenever he wants (this should be counted separately than his training, which itself is bordering on being a BS power-up), even though the god who invented that same technique couldn't even master it. This makes him ridiculously strong.
-Gets five zenkais on the way to Namek, then gets KK x10 on top of that, both of which place him so far above everyone else except Freeza that it's not even close to fair.
-Gets another MASSIVE zenkai on Namek itself, making him x33 stronger. Possibly the most BS easy power-up in the entire series.

Gohan:
-Gets his power unlocked on Namek, resulting in an enormous increase.
-Gets 2-3 zenkais on Namek which give relatively minor boosts to his strength.
-Receives the Elder Kaioshin's ritual to achieve his Ultimate state.

[Hitiro]

I go by: Pure Boo >= base Goku (EoZ) == base Vegeta (EoZ) >/>> base Pan >>> Good Boo

She IS the daughter of Ultimate Gohan, and presumably the future rival of Oob, who was born with the power of Pure Boo and is being personally trained by Son Goku.

Son said she probably wouldn't win the tournament but would go pretty far so she should be above Goten/Trunks at the least, at most possibly in rivaling range of Vegeta/Goku/Oob and thus far above Good Boo.

I'm curious as to why you place Good Boo as weaker than base characters when he was doing a better job at holding off a SSJ2 Saiyan, admittedly I consider him in the same ball park as a SSJ2 or perhaps a little weaker considering he has his regen ability to make up for any difference between him and Pure Boo for a while. But he performed just as well as a SSJ2 at least. So are you saying base Pan is more powerful than SSJ2 Vegeta(Boo arc)? Because frankly if that is the case then all Pan needs is SSJ and she'd be stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks and Chou(Ultimate) Gohan which would be pretty absurd. I'm fine with putting Goku above Good Boo and possibly Vegeta too conidering Goku got a huge power-up in BoG and it's possible that Vegeta will also get the same power-up. But any other base Saiyan I'm afraid are massively weaker than Good Boo.

[CatouttaHell]

I'm curious as to why you place Good Boo as weaker than base characters when he was doing a better job at holding off a SSJ2 Saiyan, admittedly I consider him in the same ball park as a SSJ2 or perhaps a little weaker considering he has his regen ability to make up for any difference between him and Pure Boo for a while. But he performed just as well as a SSJ2 at least. So are you saying base Pan is more powerful than SSJ2 Vegeta(Boo arc)?

base Goku was capable of fighting evenly with enraged Oob, who is implied to be as powerful as Pure Boo was. After their fight ends, Son states that he just wanted to know Oob's ability and that he's as amazing as he expected.

There's also Piccolo stating Goku vs. Oob will be the most notable fight of the Tenkaichi Budoukai and Son telling Satan that someone besides Boo and them might win this time. Both of these statements I feel put base Goku and Oob above Good Boo at least.

Because frankly if that is the case then all Pan needs is SSJ and she'd be stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks and Chou(Ultimate) Gohan which would be pretty absurd. I'm fine with putting Goku above Good Boo and possibly Vegeta too conidering Goku got a huge power-up in BoG and it's possible that Vegeta will also get the same power-up. But any other base Saiyan I'm afraid are massively weaker than Good Boo.

I doubt she'd surpass Gotenks and Gohan as a 4 year old considering it's stated in the manga that base Gotenks (Post) > SSj Gotenks (Pre) > SSj3 Goku >= Pure Boo.

Even if she could though I don't see what the issue is... she's the daughter of Ultimate Gohan. 4 year old Gohan blew his father's power out of the water when he got enraged. 7 year old Goten could be even more powerful than Cell Games Goku. Pan approaching SSj3 tier as a 4 year old is just continuing that pattern IMO.

[Eternal Super Saiyan]

If Base Goku = Kid Buu, what about when Goku transforms into Super Saiyan, 2 and 3? Then Uub is nothing compared to Goku.

Plus, I don't see Base Goku going from having 100 million base to tens of billions in End of Z. I don't have GT Goku anywhere near as powerful as this. I am certainly not a believer of the EoZ Base Goku >>> SSJ3 Goku Buu Saga theory.

I also don't believe Base Gotenks (post roast) >>> SSJ Gotenks (pre roast) either. That's a very huge gap for only what 2 weeks they spent in the room?