Saiyan arc 'What if' scenario

[In Brightest Day]

So, somehow Goku makes it to the battlefield along with the others right from the beginning. Sensing Goku's energy, Vegeta and Nappa say forget the Saibaimen and get down to business right from the start. For the sake of it, Yajirobe shows up at the same time too.

How does this change the framework of the rest of the arc?

[Kamiccolo9]

Vegeta kills everybody. Probably including Nappa.

[In Brightest Day]

How creative of you. I'm not saying:

"Vegeta and Nappa vs Z-Fighters who winz guys!"

I'm asking how Goku being there from the beginning would have affected things strategically and the ramifications it could have. Obviously, Nappa would presumably want to fight first as well.

And even in your scenario there is a good chance you'd be wrong, but as I said we're not hear to discuss that.

[sintzu]

Goku would take out Nappa from the start which would save everyone then him and Piccolo would fight Vegeta.

[Kamiccolo9]

How creative of you. I'm not saying:

"Vegeta and Nappa vs Z-Fighters who winz guys!"

I'm asking how Goku being there from the beginning would have affected things strategically and the ramifications it could have. Obviously, Nappa would presumably want to fight first as well.

And even in your scenario there is a good chance you'd be wrong, but as I said we're not hear to discuss that.

It would end up with Vegeta letting Nappa take care of the others while he would personally attend to Goku. Without Goku to back them up, Nappa crushes Gohan, Piccolo, Tenshinhan, and Chiaotzu, just like he did in the real story. Yamcha wouldn't make any difference. If Goku were to break off from fighting Vegeta to attack Nappa, he'd leave himself wide open for Vegeta to attack him. In no way does this end well.

Alternately, Nappa takes on everyone while Vegeta sits back, and Goku handles him with little trouble. This leaves Vegeta against everyone. With Goku being the only one who can realistically damage him, the others are just dead weight for Vegeta to deal with at leisure. If one thing was made clear in the manga, it was that, at this time, Goku could not defeat Vegeta. So it ends up with Vegeta ignoring the others and dealing with Goku first, or killing them off, and proceeding to crush Goku. Krillin and Gohan were able to health against an extremely worn out Vegeta, but there's no way they're going to be any help against a fully powered one, aside from a lucky Kienzan. Tenshinhan, Chiaotzu, Yamcha, and Piccolo are total non factors here.

[In Brightest Day]

It would end up with Vegeta letting Nappa take care of the others while he would personally attend to Goku. Without Goku to back them up, Nappa crushes Gohan, Piccolo, Tenshinhan, and Chiaotzu, just like he did in the real story. Yamcha wouldn't make any difference. If Goku were to break off from fighting Vegeta to attack Nappa, he'd leave himself wide open for Vegeta to attack him. In no way does this end well.

A few errors here. Yes, you're correct: Nappa did eventually defeat the three of them without sustaining too much damage. Not before slinging his dick around first though and leaving himself wide open to attacks that would have killed him if it weren't for some timely intereference from Vegeta. In this scenario that you've laid out, Nappa doesn't have the luxury of Vegeta coaching him.

Alternately, Nappa takes on everyone while Vegeta sits back, and Goku handles him with little trouble. This leaves Vegeta against everyone. With Goku being the only one who can realistically damage him, the others are just dead weight for Vegeta to deal with at leisure. If one thing was made clear in the manga, it was that, at this time, Goku could not defeat Vegeta. So it ends up with Vegeta ignoring the others and dealing with Goku first, or killing them off, and proceeding to crush Goku. Krillin and Gohan were able to health against an extremely worn out Vegeta, but there's no way they're going to be any help against a fully powered one, aside from a lucky Kienzan. Tenshinhan, Chiaotzu, Yamcha, and Piccolo are total non factors here.

It seems like you've completely forgotten about Kaio-Ken here. Why does the Goku-Vegeta fight here differ so greatly from what actually happened?

And as you said, Goku took care of Nappa himself. That means a worn-out Vegeta has to contend with a totally 100% fresh team of Piccolo, Tenshinhan, Krillin, Yamcha, Son Gohan, Yajirobe and Chaozu.

[Kamiccolo9]

It would end up with Vegeta letting Nappa take care of the others while he would personally attend to Goku. Without Goku to back them up, Nappa crushes Gohan, Piccolo, Tenshinhan, and Chiaotzu, just like he did in the real story. Yamcha wouldn't make any difference. If Goku were to break off from fighting Vegeta to attack Nappa, he'd leave himself wide open for Vegeta to attack him. In no way does this end well.

A few errors here. Yes, you're correct. Nappa did eventually defeat the three of them convincingly. Not before slinging his dick around first though and leaving himself wide open to attacks that would have killed him if it weren't for some timely intereference from Vegeta. In this scenario that you've laid out, Nappa doesn't have the luxury of Vegeta coaching him.

Alternately, Nappa takes on everyone while Vegeta sits back, and Goku handles him with little trouble. This leaves Vegeta against everyone. With Goku being the only one who can realistically damage him, the others are just dead weight for Vegeta to deal with at leisure. If one thing was made clear in the manga, it was that, at this time, Goku could not defeat Vegeta. So it ends up with Vegeta ignoring the others and dealing with Goku first, or killing them off, and proceeding to crush Goku. Krillin and Gohan were able to health against an extremely worn out Vegeta, but there's no way they're going to be any help against a fully powered one, aside from a lucky Kienzan. Tenshinhan, Chiaotzu, Yamcha, and Piccolo are total non factors here.

It seems like you've completely forgotten about Kaio-Ken here. Why does the Goku-Vegeta fight here differ so greatly from what actually happened?

And as you said, Goku took care of Nappa himself. That means a worn-out Vegeta has to contend with a totally 100% fresh team of Piccolo, Tenshinhan, Krillin, Yamcha, Son Gohan, Yajirobe and Chaozu.

Goku's Kaio-Ken left him fully exhausted, and pissed Vegeta off more than anything. The first noted loss of power level from Vegeta was from the guy's own power ball. If Vegeta had refrained from becoming an Ozaru, he would have easily killed Goku. It wasn't until after being hit by a X4 Kamehameha, lowering his own power, getting forced out of a transformation, and proceeding to one-shot everyone in the area with an explosive way, that he was actually injured, and even then he managed to outmaneuver Ozaru Gohan and subdue him, falling only due to a fluke of Gohan landing on him. And even then, he was in better shape than everyone else except Krillin.

What you're failing to understand is that the entire Vegeta fight is a string of miracles for Goku and co, that, if any of them failed to occur, would result in all of them being dead. If Vegeta had not made the power ball, he would not have weakened himself, Goku would not have been able to stall him for so long, Gohan would never have become an Ozaru, and Vegeta would have proceeded to wipe out the planet.

I mean, just look at them after the beam clash. Goku can barely move, while Vegeta is flying around pissed off. Do you really think Goku would have stood a chance if Vegeta had just flown down continued the fight?

The Earthlings and Piccolo are non factors. The Kienzan is easily dodgeable, and Gohan can't go Ozaru. Nothing else matters.

[In Brightest Day]

Goku's Kaio-Ken left him fully exhausted, and pissed Vegeta off more than anything. The first noted loss of power level from Vegeta was from the guy's own power ball. If Vegeta had refrained from becoming an Ozaru, he would have easily killed Goku.

Therein lies the problem. Why would the events differ from here? Why wouldn't Vegeta have transformed after the beam struggle?

[Kamiccolo9]

Goku's Kaio-Ken left him fully exhausted, and pissed Vegeta off more than anything. The first noted loss of power level from Vegeta was from the guy's own power ball. If Vegeta had refrained from becoming an Ozaru, he would have easily killed Goku.

Therein lies the problem. Why would the events differ from here? Why wouldn't Vegeta have transformed after the beam struggle?

Assume he does. What exactly is everyone going to do if he does transform? Yajirobe managed to get his tail because Vegeta didn't know he was there. Where the battle started, it was just a big open area with nowhere to hide. How are they going to deal with Ozaru Vegeta?

You're not understanding the extreme amount of luck they had in that fight.

[In Brightest Day]

Goku's Kaio-Ken left him fully exhausted, and pissed Vegeta off more than anything. The first noted loss of power level from Vegeta was from the guy's own power ball. If Vegeta had refrained from becoming an Ozaru, he would have easily killed Goku.

Therein lies the problem. Why would the events differ from here? Why wouldn't Vegeta have transformed after the beam struggle?

Assume he does. What exactly is everyone going to do if he does transform? Yajirobe managed to get his tail because Vegeta didn't know he was there. Where the battle started, it was just a big open area with nowhere to hide. How are they going to deal with Ozaru Vegeta?

You're not understanding the extreme amount of luck they had in that fight.

Na, I get it just fine. So you think Goku wouldn't have chosen a new fight location. Why is that?

[Kamiccolo9]

Na, I get it just fine. So you think Goku wouldn't have chose a new fight location. Why is that?

They only moved the first time so that the bodies wouldn't be destroyed and in order to give Gohan and Krillin time to get away. That wouldn't apply in this instance.

[In Brightest Day]

I don't really think hiding would be much of an issue. Vegeta was also partially blinded by that point.



From there, the old Taiyōken/Kienzan combo could be handy. The Z-Fighters could be darting around as distractions while Krillin fires one off.

[Rocketman]

Vegeta dodged the Kienzan as an Oozaru, though.

[In Brightest Day]

Or Yajirobe with his sword.

[FoolsGil]

Goku saves everyone. Kills Nappa and Vegeta. No need to go to Namek. DBZ Movies 2 - 4 happen. Variant of Android Saga Happen. Variant of Buu Saga happens. Between Movie 4 and the Buu Saga, Freeza learns about Earth and decides to collect.

[Rocketman]

Or Yajirobe with his sword.

That was cause he didn't expect another fighter. If Yajirobe's there from the start, Vegeta will be on guard.

I think Earth could win this fight, but it's gonna be insanely close. It was already a sliver's luck that they forced Vegeta to retreat as it was.

[Chrono Trigger]

It also depends on how Goku managed to get back in time. Did he learn instantaneous movement? Did he leave King Kai's planet with enough time to make it back before Nappa and Vegeta got there? Did he have time to rest? The bottom line is, if Goku still gets the senzu from Korin (I forgot if Korin gave him 1 or 2 beans) then they could easily still win the fight as long as Goku doesn't have to waste a bean on somebody. One zenkai and Goku would be more than a match for Vegeta and Nappa even if they came at em together. Either way the result would be the same. If Goku fought Vegeta while everyone else fought Nappa he'd probably kill all of them one by one until only Piccolo was left.

[Hellspawn28]

I always feel like DBZ Movie 3 takes place after this type of scenario where Goku was never late after being wish back and no one was killed. In the most realistic scenario, Nappa would have gone first to fight and Goku would have kicked his ass. Vegeta kills Nappa and fights all of the Z warriors at once. If no one dies then everyone lives a happy life until #17 and #18 shows up to kill everyone. If Piccolo dies then I would imagine things would be not much different. Vegeta would have killed everyone leaving Goku, Gohan and Kuririn left alive. I would imagine Goku body would still likely be crushed by Oozaru Vegeta and they would have still gone to Namek to wish back everyone to life.

[mAcChaos]

I always feel like DBZ Movie 3 takes place after this type of scenario where Goku was never late after being wish back and no one was killed. In the most realistic scenario, Nappa would have gone first to fight and Goku would have kicked his ass. Vegeta kills Nappa and fights all of the Z warriors at once. If no one dies then everyone lives a happy life until #17 and #18 shows up to kill everyone. If Piccolo dies then I would imagine things would be not much different. Vegeta would have killed everyone leaving Goku, Gohan and Kuririn left alive. I would imagine Goku body would still likely be crushed by Oozaru Vegeta and they would have still gone to Namek to wish back everyone to life.

Under this scenario Freeza would have achieved immortality easily too since nobody would have gone to Namek to stop him.

[Hellspawn28]

Freeza does not know the password on Namek. If no one goes to Namek then he would end up blowing up the Planet since he didn't get his wish. If Piccolo still dies and Goku gets hurt after fighting Vegeta then things would likely be the same as they are now. If Goku goes to Namek with Gohan and Kuririn without getting hurt badly then everyone would died against the Ginyu Force. Goku might able to beat Zarbon before Vegeta can but he won't be any match against Recoome or Captain Ginyu.