Cell Games: Did the humans surpass Ginyu's power level?

[Angelus]

I want to see how many agree or disagree on a common theory that the humans barely surpassed Ginyu's power level.

Yes, this would include Yamcha and Chiaotzu but this question is mainly for Krillin and Tien, Tribeam and Kienzan aside.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

I don't think the humans are that weak, I think Yamcha, Ten, and Krillin reached the millions, not sure about Chaozu..

[Duo]

Sadly, there is no gauge provided in the story to make sense of this.

But given that Tenshinhan was able to hold Cell down with the Kikoho, it's hard not to think he powered up by a significant margin past the Ginyu's and such.

[fadeddreams5]

Chiaotzu - Most probably not.

Tien - Yes. You can assume while he was dead, he became as strong as Goku during the saiyan arc. By the Cell Games, he continued training and most probably reached the level of Goku on planet Namek. IIRC, he didn't use the ROSAT or any gravity machine, so I wouldn't put him above first form Frieza or anything, but above Ginyu.

Krillin - Well, if we're going to follow Toriyama's words, then he's the strongest human, so that puts him above Tien and, thus, Ginyu by that point.

Yamcha - If it's anime filler Yamcha, he wrecks Ginyu. If not, then I feel he's slightly weaker than Ginyu. Just not much of a fighter.

[DBZAOTA482]

I definitely think Kuririn, Yamcha, and Tenshinhan have.

As for Chaozu, I'd honestly be shocked if he ever surpasses Raditz's level.

[Tyro]

There's only so much evidence we have to draw conclusions from, but I think one particularly valuable piece of information is Nail commenting that Piccolo was incredibly powerful when he arrived on Namek. Now, that can be read a couple of ways: 1) Piccolo is more powerful than the standard Warrior-type Namekian (3,000ish). 2) Piccolo isn't necessarily "incredibly" powerful but Nail was trying to goad him into using Assimilation. 3) Piccolo is more powerful than Nail. 4) A mixture of (1) and (2) or (2) and (3). Based on how Piccolo wanted to use two wishes on himself, the first to come back to life and the second to get him to Namek, all just so he could help fight a foe he knew was much stronger than Vegeta was on Earth, I lean towards a combination of (2) and (3) being the more likely option.

Based on that, it's not unlikely that Tenshinhan and Yamcha radically increased their battle powers while training with Kaio. If Piccolo could go from somewhere in the 2,000s to over/around 42,000 in less than 6 days, just imagine what the humans could do with 130 and 260, respectively. Yes, you have to factor in that not having Piccolo around, and later not having Yamcha around, would affect the gains everyone would make during that time, but still. I think it would be quite impressive and blow Ginyu out of the water.

As for Kuririn, the power up from Saichoro is quite mysterious. Who knows when it stopped raising him battle power. He and Gohan did think they'd be of some use to Vegeta when he managed to hold off Freeza's first form, so I'm of the opinion that Kuririn definitely reached the 100,000 by then, at least.

[Lord Beerus]

I think Tien, Yamcha and Krillin were definitely above Ginyu's power by EOZ. I honestly reckon they were in the millions. I mean, yes, the human cast are weak compared the rest of the aliens/cyborgs among the Z-Fighters, but they aren't exactly pushovers in their own regard.

[Mac]

Yes, I'd have them near Frieza fight Goku at the very least.

[Saiga]

There's only so much evidence we have to draw conclusions from, but I think one particularly valuable piece of information is Nail commenting that Piccolo was incredibly powerful when he arrived on Namek. Now, that can be read a couple of ways: 1) Piccolo is more powerful than the standard Warrior-type Namekian (3,000ish). 2) Piccolo isn't necessarily "incredibly" powerful but Nail was trying to goad him into using Assimilation. 3) Piccolo is more powerful than Nail. 4) A mixture of (1) and (2) or (2) and (3). Based on how Piccolo wanted to use two wishes on himself, the first to come back to life and the second to get him to Namek, all just so he could help fight a foe he knew was much stronger than Vegeta was on Earth, I lean towards a combination of (2) and (3) being the more likely option.

Based on that, it's not unlikely that Tenshinhan and Yamcha radically increased their battle powers while training with Kaio. If Piccolo could go from somewhere in the 2,000s to over/around 42,000 in less than 6 days, just imagine what the humans could do with 130 and 260, respectively. Yes, you have to factor in that not having Piccolo around, and later not having Yamcha around, would affect the gains everyone would make during that time, but still. I think it would be quite impressive and blow Ginyu out of the water.

As for Kuririn, the power up from Saichoro is quite mysterious. Who knows when it stopped raising him battle power. He and Gohan did think they'd be of some use to Vegeta when he managed to hold off Freeza's first form, so I'm of the opinion that Kuririn definitely reached the 100,000 by then, at least.

This then begs the question of why a year at Kaio's didn't give Goku that large a power up. Sure, he got 20x stronger over half a year... but that's nothing compared to the gains that would put Piccolo above Nail in 6 days.

[ekrolo2]

Krillin, Yamcha and Chaotzu might've lost some power due to largely not really training anymore while Tien apparently did, however, I think that both Tien and definitely Krillin are in the low millions with Yamcha being in the high 100 00s and Chaotzu either in the high 10 000s to low 100 000s

[singsing]

This then begs the question of why a year at Kaio's didn't give Goku that large a power up. Sure, he got 20x stronger over half a year... but that's nothing compared to the gains that would put Piccolo above Nail in 6 days.

Well, Goku did spend a lot of that time having to get used to the gravity and learning/mastering the Kaioken and Spirit Bomb, while the others were already okay with the gravity correct? If you factor in the KK, he got 80x stronger.

[ThePrinceOfSaiyans]

By the end of the Cell saga I'd say all humans were higher than Ginyu. (Minus Chiaotzu)

By end of Z they were into the millions as already stated.

In comparison to Saiyans or fused Piccolo they are flies, however Ginyu was only at 120k. The humans sadly get outshined despite being beasts in their own way.

[Saiga]

This then begs the question of why a year at Kaio's didn't give Goku that large a power up. Sure, he got 20x stronger over half a year... but that's nothing compared to the gains that would put Piccolo above Nail in 6 days.

Well, Goku did spend a lot of that time having to get used to the gravity and learning/mastering the Kaioken and Spirit Bomb, while the others were already okay with the gravity correct? If you factor in the KK, he got 80x stronger.

Yamcha wasn't okay with the gravity, at least. And if learning the Kaio-ken made Goku's training less efficient, that would just make teaching him the Kaio-ken even stupider.

It'd be more like a 40x increase since 2x was all he could handle. Even 80x in half a year still wouldn't match the gains Piccolo supposedly made from the 6 days of training, and that's in temporary boosts.

So yeah. If that was the difference, it was a really dumb move teaching him the Kaio-ken. He could've gotten stronger in base and never needed it.

[Diotor]

I'd have Tenshinhan and Krillin able to beat second form Frieza and possibly beat third form Freeza in a tough fight.

Yamacha would be able to beat first form Freeza and then maybe have enough to beat his second form.

Chaoitzu I'd have somewhere between Ginyu and first form Freeza.

[Sinestro]

Yamcha - If it's anime filler Yamcha, he wrecks Ginyu. If not, then I feel he's slightly weaker than Ginyu. Just not much of a fighter.

Filler Yamcha is both hilarious and ridiculous.

[flashback0180]

Yamcha - If it's anime filler Yamcha, he wrecks Ginyu. If not, then I feel he's slightly weaker than Ginyu. Just not much of a fighter.

Filler Yamcha is both hilarious and ridiculous.

I actually prefer these fillers, at least they did something.

[Pantalones]

Yamcha was initially mistaken for Goku by Dr. Gero just going by his power level, and was considered a good source of energy to drain even after Gero realized that he'd initially mis-identified him. There's no way #19 and #20 are so weak that a power level in the 10,000s or even 100,000s range would actually provide a significant improvement to their power when absorbed (once you're in the multi-millions a 100,000 boost is basically nothing...), so this definitely implies that Yamcha reached the millions by the Android saga.

And if Yamcha reached the millions, you know Krillin and Tenshinhan are also in the millions and most likely at least a couple times stronger than him (considering that Krillin had his potential unlocked and Tenshinhan spent longer training on Kaio's than Yamcha did, in addition to both of them being a good bit stronger than Yamcha was to begin with.)

So yes, the humans (or at least those who are still considered active fighters by the Cell Games) most certainly surpassed Ginyu. And first-form Freeza. And probably second- and third-form Freeza, though Yamcha's status vs. those ones is a bit up in the air. Tenshinhan and Krillin possibly surpassed initial (3 million) 4th-form Freeza, too, the only question is "by how much" (like... are they only just barely above that level? are they a few millions ahead of that level, strong enough to take that Freeza out in one punch if he doesn't power up? or are they even higher, maybe pushing into the tens-of-millions?)

Heck, even Chiaotzu was probably a good bit ahead of Ginyu, though he may not have reached the millions. And even he might have eventually gotten that far since he's always training with Tenshinhan, while Yamcha stopped training... so even if he's still way weaker than Krillin or Tenshinhan, Chiaotzu might actually be stronger than Yamcha by the Buu saga or the end of Z. XD

====

They've already long since surpassed the guys who were once considered the strongest on Earth (like Roshi, Piccolo Daimao, Kami, etc.), so I don't get why so many people are so against the idea that the human fighters surpassed some of the guys who were once considered strongest in the universe (like Ginyu and first-form Freeza.) That's what happens in Dragonball -- people who keep training and fighting get stronger, passing their supposed limits time and time again. Just because you don't have the power to make your hair glow yellow and become 50x stronger instantly doesn't mean that rule no longer applies to you, it just means that you'll never catch up to those who can do that.

[Dayspring]

Yamcha was initially mistaken for Goku by Dr. Gero just going by his power level, and was considered a good source of energy to drain even after Gero realized that he'd initially mis-identified him. There's no way #19 and #20 are so weak that a power level in the 10,000s or even 100,000s range would actually provide a significant improvement to their power when absorbed (once you're in the multi-millions a 100,000 boost is basically nothing...), so this definitely implies that Yamcha reached the millions by the Android saga.

So much THIS. It's also very probable that Yamcha, Chaozu and Tenshinhan all learned Kaioken as well, since they reached Kaio's at a much stronger strength than Goku's and spent more time with Kaio than Goku did. Meanwhile, Krillin got that boost from Saichoru that even Vegeta commented as having an impact beyond just the initial boost.

Personally, given the ridiculous gains Piccolo makes in the three-year gap, how much Shishami and Freeza make in a four-month gap and the fact that they're using King Cold and Freeza as comparisons, I actually peg all four of them as reaching the multi-millions, Chaozu and Yamcha not surpassing Freeza, while Krillin and Tenshinhan are strong enough so that they have techniques that might take down a stronger opponent (like Freeza).

Basically, I see the trend of being not that far behind Goku still getting followed, only Goku then also has SSJ to fall back on while they don't. So if Goku's base form is 100 million (arbitrary number), then I see Krillin at 80-85M and Tenshinhan at 80M, with Chaozu being half that and Yamcha somewhere in-between.

[buutenks]

Tienshinhan was able to hold off cell for quite some time.So either his kikioho(or h/e you write it) multiplies his power thousands of times or tien is up there with final form freeza.

But to the main question,yes tien and krillin did surpass ginyu,due to tine holding off cell and krillin being a match for him or close in general.Not saying anything about 50+% freeza but ginyu definitely.

[KentalSSJ6]

Not sure how it went down in the manga but in the anime Krillin, Yamcha, and Tenshinhan are shown fending off Cell Jr.s that were even putting a fresh Trunks and Vegeta on the defensive. If the manga is similar to that then yeah id say the humans are a good deal past Ginyu's level.