Should Kai be considered as canon

[xmysticgohanx]

DB Super has Gregory (is in Kai), Mr. Satan's filler assistants (are in Kai), and uses Kai's footage. It honestly sounds like the manga has been retconned.

[funrush]

I mean if you really want to look at it that way. I don't think little stuff like Gregory existing matters that much but if you go full nitpick mode, then yes? I think the anime and the manga are separate entities though. Like there's the manga, Kai+Super, and then Z+GT. At least that's how I view it.

[Hellspawn28]

Kai is adaptation of the manga, so no. Gregory and Mr. Satan's filler assistants are just background characters, so it doesn't matter if you ask me. Toriyama seems to like Gregory given how he was in the 2008 Jump Special.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

Is the line of Pure Boo being the strongest Boo still there? If so, then no.

[VegettoEX]

DB Super has Gregory (is in Kai), Mr. Satan's filler assistants (are in Kai), and uses Kai's footage. It honestly sounds like the manga has been retconned.

These are not retcons. Dr. Gero having always been a member of the Red Ribbon Army and creating, for example, #8? That's a retcon. Goku always having been alien? That's a retcon. Both of these examples? In the original manga serialization.

But people don't think of these examples as retcons, because it's been too long for them and they just think of these examples as "the story".

These days (and perhaps always), Toriyama and Toei are not thinking about "canon" or "continuity" or "retcons". They're simply making new stories, taking whatever elements they want... and if they happen to work with something prior, great. If they don't? That's fine too.

It's getting impossible to have this conversation about canonicity. We're at a point where the base level of a canon that everyone can agree upon is basically only "the manga as written by Akira Toriyama and printed in the pages of Weekly Shonen Jump between 1984-1995". That's it. Nothing more. It started with the new kanzenban ending in 2004, and it's continuing today with Super. They don't give a flying frak, and I urge other fans to do the same. It's a fun conversation, but it's an increasingly pointless one.

[xmysticgohanx]

Kai is adaptation of the manga, so no. Gregory and Mr. Satan's filler assistants are just background characters, so it doesn't matter if you ask me. Toriyama seems to like Gregory given how he was in the 2008 Jump Special.

Isn't Super doing an adaption of the movies? It's possible for adaptions to be considered as the new canon.

Is the line of Pure Boo being the strongest Boo still there? If so, then no.

I have no idea but what's more important is if Goku vs Bootenks is still in there because in the anime, there's enough statements to support both views. What pushes it over the border is that filler fight.

DB Super has Gregory (is in Kai), Mr. Satan's filler assistants (are in Kai), and uses Kai's footage. It honestly sounds like the manga has been retconned.

These are not retcons. Dr. Gero having always been a member of the Red Ribbon Army and creating, for example, #8? That's a retcon. Goku always having been alien? That's a retcon. Both of these examples? In the original manga serialization.

But people don't think of these examples as retcons, because it's been too long for them and they just think of these examples as "the story".

These days (and perhaps always), Toriyama and Toei are not thinking about "canon" or "continuity" or "retcons". They're simply making new stories, taking whatever elements they want... and if they happen to work with something prior, great. If they don't? That's fine too.

It's getting impossible to have this conversation about canonicity. We're at a point where the base level of a canon that everyone can agree upon is basically only "the manga as written by Akira Toriyama and printed in the pages of Weekly Shonen Jump between 1984-1995". That's it. Nothing more. It started with the new kanzenban ending in 2004, and it's continuing today with Super. They don't give a flying frak, and I urge other fans to do the same. It's a fun conversation, but it's an increasingly pointless one.

Talking about canon isn't pointless at all imo

[fadeddreams5]

It sort of is pointless because there simply isn't an official canon. You can pick and choose whatever you want in your head canon. But officially, the only "canon" is Toriyama's original manga. The anime, Super, GT, the two modern movies, etc. are just based on it.

[xmysticgohanx]

It's pretty clear Toriyama takes Super, BoG, and RoF into account

[Zephyr]

Before Jaco and DB-, it would have been incredibly reasonable to say "Toriyama takes the Bardock TV Special into account", and yet look at how that turned out. Super contradicts BoG, but Toriyama is largely responsible for both. Which one does he take account?

It would have been reasonable to say "Battle of Gods is canon, look at everything Toriyama's doing!", but now, Super is throwing Battle of Gods out the window, and telling a different version of the story. Which version is canon? Is it Super, since that's what Toriyama is most recently telling? How long before that gets over-written by something else done by Toriyama? Is it Battle of Gods, since it came first? Should we then just take all of this new material for granted since it "didn't come first?"

This is why this topic is commonly labelled as a futile one.

[ZombieVito]

DB Super has Gregory (is in Kai), Mr. Satan's filler assistants (are in Kai), and uses Kai's footage. It honestly sounds like the manga has been retconned.

These are not retcons. Dr. Gero having always been a member of the Red Ribbon Army and creating, for example, #8? That's a retcon. Goku always having been alien? That's a retcon. Both of these examples? In the original manga serialization.

But people don't think of these examples as retcons, because it's been too long for them and they just think of these examples as "the story".

These days (and perhaps always), Toriyama and Toei are not thinking about "canon" or "continuity" or "retcons". They're simply making new stories, taking whatever elements they want... and if they happen to work with something prior, great. If they don't? That's fine too.

It's getting impossible to have this conversation about canonicity. We're at a point where the base level of a canon that everyone can agree upon is basically only "the manga as written by Akira Toriyama and printed in the pages of Weekly Shonen Jump between 1984-1995". That's it. Nothing more. It started with the new kanzenban ending in 2004, and it's continuing today with Super. They don't give a flying frak, and I urge other fans to do the same. It's a fun conversation, but it's an increasingly pointless one.

How exactly is this a retcon?

It was never revealed who created the androids they had in early Dragon Ball until the Android arc in Z.

[Daisetsu]

If you take into account the anime, it is a retcon. There, it was some other doctor said to create #8 (and actually removed his bomb later).

[ShaneisMC]

I dont think it has to be very complicated. didnt one of the daizenshuus say the movies just took place in different dimensions or something to that affect? Seeing as how Toriyama sees GT as a side story and ignores it in his own stories i would say that it can likely fit in that same category. The main continuity/timeline being Jaco the Galactic Patrolman, the original 42 book series of dragon ball/z, and now Super. Everything else can just be seen as having happened in a different timeline or whatever you want to call it. It makes sense from an in universe and business perspective to have it that way. Of course they arent going to try to sell you something they are telling you "doesnt count". And it fits just fine to imagine that in different dimensions/timelines the movies/GT legitimately occur.

[VegettoEX]

I dont think it has to be very complicated. didnt one of the daizenshuus say the movies just took place in different dimensions or something to that affect? Seeing as how Toriyama sees GT as a side story and ignores it in his own stories i would say that it can likely fit in that same category. The main continuity/timeline being Jaco the Galactic Patrolman, the original 42 book series of dragon ball/z, and now Super. Everything else can just be seen as having happened in a different timeline or whatever you want to call it. It makes sense from an in universe and business perspective to have it that way. Of course they arent going to try to sell you something they are telling you "doesnt count". And it fits just fine to imagine that in different dimensions/timelines the movies/GT legitimately occur.

That's "easy" enough to say now, but you're not putting this in perspective. Look again at what Zephyr said.

Before _______, the canon was ________. But then ________ came along, and so now we guess it's __________. But then _________ came along and overwrote that, so maybe now it's ___________. But then _________ came along and expanded upon __________ and is overwriting _________, so maybe now it's ____________?

That's precisely why I'm saying it's rather futile to have the conversation these days. We're in a period of time where it's basically every single year that we're being told "that's not how it happened; here's how it happened"... and that's ignoring Q&A/interview stuff.

[ShaneisMC]

I suppose the easiest thing to do would either be one of two options. Keeping it strict, or very open. The strict option of course simply keeping to the original 42. If one were to be "open" to further "official" expansion then I would think that the only logical thing to do would be to simply accept any and all new material as it comes. doesnt of course make it easy but whatever is currently being made or whatever toriyama has most recently said is to be considered official since its the latest "update", even if it retcons/sucks/contradicts previous stuff/ whatever. If you want "new" "official" content for the main continuity I would simply go with whatever is the most recent development to be it. Either are viable. Any other way would indeed as youve said make it futile.

[Luso Saiyan]

DB Super has Gregory (is in Kai), Mr. Satan's filler assistants (are in Kai), and uses Kai's footage. It honestly sounds like the manga has been retconned.

Super is a continuation of Kai. Neither have anything to do with the manga or canon.

[shinmaru]

The Manga is the one and only official canon. But I personally make off everything that conects to Z original timeline like movie 9 & 12 and the specials as canon.

[Polyphase Avatron]

If you want it to be. Answer for any of these, really.

[fadeddreams5]

It's pretty clear Toriyama takes Super, BoG, and RoF into account

Only now Super will very likely contradict the events of the those two movies. lol.

[Hellspawn28]

Isn't Super doing an adaption of the movies? It's possible for adaptions to be considered as the new canon

Super is retelling the events of those movies, not adapting them. With Super, it seems like Toriyama has more input on the story unlike GT.

[TheDevilsCorpse]

Isn't Super doing an adaption of the movies? It's possible for adaptions to be considered as the new canon

Super is retelling the events of those movies, not adapting them. With Super, it seems like Toriyama has more input on the story unlike GT.

A technically retelling would mean the story was being told the same as it was originally or altered in the sense of being told from someone else's perspective. The fact that actual changes are being made to things, like how Beerus remembers Super Saiyan God or that Bluma's party is on a boat (that's not even counting potential Champa tweaks), means they qualify as being (re)adapted.