Death Battle: Goku vs Superman 2

[dbzfan7]

One could just as easily say DBZ fanboys simply hate comics/superman in general. And don't want to admit any possibility of Superman>Goku in power or writing.

I go with this answer myself. People just don't want to admit Goku isn't the best. Sure in his own universe fans don't care as much, but among the multiverse of other creations, they want to believe Goku is the best. People complain Superman is way too OP and boring, but then they want Goku too essentially become just as OP and boring. Supes fights a different struggle that's not about physical obstacles. Though honestly I do prefer the cartoon variations where he isn't nearly as godly, such as Superman TAS and Justice League. I really enjoy those shows with him in it, and he's more grounded. Probably my favourite Justice League ep was the Superman "For the man who as everything". I loved the cartoon version, and I hear the creator of that story actually liked it so much he allowed his name to be on the credits for the episode.

[mmg86]

Kamiccolo, i have seen that panel in english before. But I'm saying that there was a description of it that was not just "infinite pages", something more detailed. Could be in the page immediately after or something, since that is not the only panel where the book is shown or mentioned.

Ah, something funny i remembered. In the second issue of Superman Beyond, Mandrakk uses an attack that channels "the blood of 52 universes! 10 billion suns". I always found that weird, how low that number is... because that sounds more like the suns of a single galaxy, rather than those of the universe X52. Unless... perhaps it was "big" billions. Like, in some places we use the scale "1000 millions:1 billion", where in others its "1000000 millions:1 billion". 10000000 suns does sound a bit more reasonable, because otherwise a DC universe would be quite small...

[Kamiccolo9]

Kamiccolo, i have seen that panel in english before. But I'm saying that there was a description of it that was not just "infinite pages", something more detailed. Could be in the page immediately after or something, since that is not the only panel where the book is shown or mentioned.

Ah, something funny i remembered. In the second issue of Superman Beyond, Mandrakk uses an attack that channels "the blood of 52 universes! 10 billion suns". I always found that weird, how low that number is... because that sounds more like the suns of a single galaxy, rather than those of the universe X52. Unless... perhaps it was "big" billions. Like, in some places we use the scale "1000 millions:1 billion", where in others its "1000000 millions:1 billion". 10000000 suns does sound a bit more reasonable, because otherwise a DC universe would be quite small...

He goes on to say it has "every possible story" within it. That's probably the line you're thinking of, which is just another way of saying that it's infinite, because there's an infinite number of possible stories.

[mmg86]

He goes on to say it has "every possible story" within it. That's probably the line you're thinking of, which is just another way of saying that it's infinite, because there's an infinite number of possible stories.

Yes, thats probably the line i was remembering. So its my second theory... all books that exist, all books that will exist, and all books that COULD exist... well, that just makes the computer they use to read the book even crazier, lol

[Kamiccolo9]

He goes on to say it has "every possible story" within it. That's probably the line you're thinking of, which is just another way of saying that it's infinite, because there's an infinite number of possible stories.

Yes, thats probably the line i was remembering. So its my second theory... all books that exist, all books that will exist, and all books that COULD exist... well, that just makes the computer they use to read the book even crazier, lol

Well, the computer is said to have "infinite computing power," so, there you go

[Polyphase Avatron]

I don't have to justify them. He's done it, and it was under his own power, not some outside influence. Whether it's PIS or whatever is irrelevant.

Just because you don't like the feat, and the feat itself is dumb, doesn't mean that it didn't happen. And he's done it multiple times, so it wasn't just a single offshoot of PIS.

Yeah but in comic forums most people don't take that seriously, like if the fight was Superman vs. Thor for example they don't say "Oh Superman wins because he lifted infinity and Thor didn't".

I don't particularly care for the 40 ton limit for Goku in base, but that's his greatest definable strength feat, so I go with it.

Not really, there are lots of calculations that put his strength a lot above that from other feats in the series (like kicking Freeza through two islands). Although I guess that depends on if you buy those calculations or not.

Since you know infinite strength equals infinite durability which is>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Omniversal

This is pretty much untrue though, it's quite possible for characters to have infinite power and other characters to be above them, when you invoke concepts like cardinality and aleph numbers. But the weakest kind of characters who have infinite power are usually at least reality warpers like Cosmic Cubes in Marvel

Any character that's not an omnipotent lifting infinity doesn't count because it's infinity

Again, not quite true. Having infinite power =/= being omnipotent. Let's say that you have the power to throw a punch at me with an infinite amount of force behind it, but I am intangible and unaffected by any physical attack. In that case, despite having infinite power, you still can't hurt me. If you were omnipotent, on the other hand, and I wasn't, then you would always be able to beat me.

It doesn't contradict anything. It says that under those conditions, at that moment, Superman was capable of lifting objects with unlimited weight. And again, contradictions don't mean feats didn't happen. I'm sorry, but "thinking logically" doesn't apply when the feats are shown and stated, clear as day.

Also, the veiled insults are getting annoying. Cut it out.

Well you could also say (if you're familiar with this example) that Spider-Man was able to beat Firelord under those conditions, at that moment. Doesn't mean people should take it seriously.

It does contradict lots of things because if he had infinite durability he would never get hurt by anything period

Again, this isn't true. Let's say you have infinite durability against all types of physical force and energy. There would still be several ways to hurt you. For example, go back in time to before you had that durability and then hurt you, or prevent you from being born by altering time. Or use an attack that erases you from existence (it doesn't do any damage by throwing force or energy at you, it simply makes you cease to exist). Also, a conceptual-based attack (redefine the concept of "infinite durability" to mean "no durability", making you vulnerable). But these are the kind of things generally reserved for reality warpers.

Except the whole point of it is doing the literally impossible so of course it makes no sense. That's the whole point, that's the statement behind it. It's impossible, except for Superman.

This is also wrong. If you look at DC, there are a lot of beings with more legitimate claims to 'infinite' stats and feats. Let's take the Spectre, since we've already brought him up. He's God's Wrath incarnate, and his power is limited only by the mental restrictions of his host and by the amount of power that The Presence (basically God of DC) lets him have. In Crisis on Infinite Earths, the Anti-Monitor destroyed an infinite number of universes and absorbed all of their energy, and the Spectre was able to fight him toe-to-toe and just narrowly lost (it was implied later that, had The Presence given him more power, he could have won). The Spectre could launch an attack with infinite energy or move at infinite speed if he wanted to, and it would make sense considering his powers. Not so much for Superman.

One of the key things to remember for Superman in any incarnation on the writing side is He is as strong as the writer needs him to be. Superman has no limits. That's a fact, he will always be inconsistent and they've written in excuses for why he is inconsistent. If they want him to lift infinity, he lifts infinity. If they want him to vaporize half a universe? He vaporizes half a universe. If they want him to dive through a sun and tank the punishment that entails? He dives through a sun and shrugs it off like it's Tuesday! Supes does whatever the writer feels like he can do and at this point? Supes can do ANYTHING. He's a veritable god among men and that's how he's always been.

That's my rant, have a good day.

This isn't really true either. Only certain writers treat him that way (Joe Casey and Jeph Loeb come to mind) but most of them try to at least put his abilities within a certain ballpark, based on the incarnation and level of the character when they're writing him. There's a reason that fans complain when he does something like beating Darkseid without serious help or a major plot device, because, on his own, he shouldn't be able to beat him.

Maybe Supes has infinite strength, but it doesn't scale to his durability and other stats the same way. That's the way his infinite strength could work I guess. So maybe in the DC Universe Infinite strength is just in regards to his strength and nothing more. If that were the case, then characters without infinite strength could still beat Superman. I dunno.

Like I said, it's possible to beat infinite stats without infinite stats. Let's take a look at Swamp Thing, for instance. He can lift 5 or 10 tons, or somewhere around that. Regardless of what you think of Superman's strength, Swamp Thing is a lot weaker physically. But Superman has no chance of beating Swamp Thing. Because Swamp Thing is completely immortal, can survive having his body completely destroyed and regenerate anywhere (even in another time or another multiverse), can control souls, and has a bunch of other ridiculous powers that Superman has no counter to. If it just came down to physical strength it would be no contest, but Superman has never beaten Swamp Thing in a fight.

People need to realize that screwattack simply hates Anime/DBZ in general. They were happy enough to do this whole Goku vs Supes battle just for the views and to troll DBZ fanboys. Even though Superman fanboys who where hating on Goku failed to realize that he is a better written character compared to Superman

That's honestly arguable. I mean, if you look at the very best-ever written Superman stories (by the likes of Grant Morrison, Alan Moore, etc.) they pretty much beat out anything Toriyama ever wrote. But if you look at the average Superman story? Goku is probably better written.

Would have been ironic if while they were celebrating Goku's death Screw Attack had Superman prime one million fight against Masaki Tenchi. I mean would you rather want Goku to beat Superman or some high school japanese kid from a harem show that has a power of literal omnipotence and PIS powers like light hawk wings that can reduce all Attack and Defense to zero

I'm pretty sure that's a mistranslation, what they actually do is convert any attack into 'harmless energy'.

can erase you completely from existence as he proceeds to blink all version's of superman out of existence without even lifting a finger? lol

Well the only version that could win is Cosmic Armor because of the whole "I write the plot and it dictates that I win" nonsense.

They even say it, Superman is one of those character who doesn't belong in these kinds of VS fights cause they will ALWAYS WIN!

But the thing is, that's not true! He loses all the time. I mean, ask any DC Comics fan who wins between Superman and the Spectre. Assuming they have any idea about the two characters, they'll say Spectre every time. And let's also look at one of the classic members of Superman's own rogues gallery: Mr. Mxyzsptlk (or however you spell it). Superman never beats him in a straight-up fight. In fact, that's the very point of the character - he's an annoying little jackass who just happens to be so over-the-top powerful that Superman simply can't do anything to him, even with all of his powers and abilities. The only way he can beat him is by outsmarting him.

Probably my favourite Justice League ep was the Superman "For the man who as everything". I loved the cartoon version, and I hear the creator of that story actually liked it so much he allowed his name to be on the credits for the episode.

That was actually originally based on a comic story written by Alan Moore.

[Kamiccolo9]

I don't have to justify them. He's done it, and it was under his own power, not some outside influence. Whether it's PIS or whatever is irrelevant.

Just because you don't like the feat, and the feat itself is dumb, doesn't mean that it didn't happen. And he's done it multiple times, so it wasn't just a single offshoot of PIS.

Yeah but in comic forums most people don't take that seriously, like if the fight was Superman vs. Thor for example they don't say "Oh Superman wins because he lifted infinity and Thor didn't".

I don't particularly care for the 40 ton limit for Goku in base, but that's his greatest definable strength feat, so I go with it.

Not really, there are lots of calculations that put his strength a lot above that from other feats in the series (like kicking Freeza through two islands). Although I guess that depends on if you buy those calculations or not.

That feat gets thrown around all the time. I am a frequent browser of most of the big comic forums, and have contributed heavily to the respect threads of various characters. Nor does the alleged consensus of a bunch of fans in any way validate or invalidate something done in an official work.
Incidentally, Superman crushes Thor. I hate to say it, as Thor is my favorite comic character, but he can't match Supes.

If you start applying physics to DB, then everything falls apart. If characters are faster than light, or even sound, for that matter, why doesn't time bend around them, or why don't sonic booms occur during every fight? Why doesn't the destruction of the moon wreak havoc with the tides?

I mean, DB characters regularly violate the laws of physics, as there are numerous examples of gaining extra mass out of nothing, which is scientifically impossible. Yet there is this insane obsession with cherry picking feats to apply physics to, and responding to the glaring inconsistencies with "you're thinking about this too much; it's a comic book."

And before someone says "DC DOES THAT TOO," the difference is that Marvel and DC feats like the ones we are discussing are explicitly stated to be the case. We are told and shown that Superman lifted infinity and flew faster than light; it wasn't worked out by some fan calculation. Goku's official strength limit in base during that part of the Buu Arc was that he could not quite manage to lift 40 tons of weight while in the air. That is not debatable, unless you start making up stuff.

[Polyphase Avatron]

I don't have to justify them. He's done it, and it was under his own power, not some outside influence. Whether it's PIS or whatever is irrelevant.

Just because you don't like the feat, and the feat itself is dumb, doesn't mean that it didn't happen. And he's done it multiple times, so it wasn't just a single offshoot of PIS.

Yeah but in comic forums most people don't take that seriously, like if the fight was Superman vs. Thor for example they don't say "Oh Superman wins because he lifted infinity and Thor didn't".

I don't particularly care for the 40 ton limit for Goku in base, but that's his greatest definable strength feat, so I go with it.

Not really, there are lots of calculations that put his strength a lot above that from other feats in the series (like kicking Freeza through two islands). Although I guess that depends on if you buy those calculations or not.

That feat gets thrown around all the time. I am a frequent browser of most of the big comic forums, and have contributed heavily to the respect threads of various characters. Nor does the alleged consensus of a bunch of fans in any way validate or invalidate something done in an official work.
Incidentally, Superman crushes Thor. I hate to say it, as Thor is my favorite comic character, but he can't match Supes.

That's really arguable. People have been debating it for quite a long time and both sides have legitimate arguments. There's also the fact that Thor has honest-to-goodness magic, something Superman is explicitly vulnerable to.

If you start applying physics to DB, then everything falls apart. If characters are faster than light, or even sound, for that matter, why doesn't time bend around them, or why don't sonic booms occur during every fight? Why doesn't the destruction of the moon wreak havoc with the tides?

Who knows? They just don't. But you have to use some type of physics or science to even have this discussion in the first place. For example, you say '40 tons'. What does that even mean, if we ignore physics, which defines what a 'ton' is and how much energy is required to lift one? No one claims fiction has to adhere absolutely to the laws of physics, but there has to be some kind of baseline used from actual science, or else you can't compare anything from one series to another in terms of feats/power/etc.

I mean, DB characters regularly violate the laws of physics, as there are numerous examples of gaining extra mass out of nothing, which is scientifically impossible. Yet there is this insane obsession with cherry picking feats to apply physics to, and responding to the glaring inconsistencies with "you're thinking about this too much; it's a comic book."

Well the go-to explanation for 'mass coming from nowhere' feats in fiction is usually "it's pulled from another dimension". Even if you don't know where it comes from, that doesn't mean you can't analyze.

Let's sat you're reading a book where a wizard throws a fireball and melts a mountain with it. Just because it violates physics for a person to magically create fire from nowhere, doesn't mean you can't figure out how much energy was involved in that event.

And before someone says "DC DOES THAT TOO," the difference is that Marvel and DC feats like the ones we are discussing are explicitly stated to be the case. We are told and shown that Superman lifted infinity and flew faster than light; it wasn't worked out by some fan calculation. Goku's official strength limit in base during that part of the Buu Arc was that he could not quite manage to lift 40 tons of weight while in the air. That is not debatable, unless you start making up stuff.

Well the facts are that both of those incidents are contradicted by a lot of other stuff and don't really mesh sensibly with the way other things are shown.

[neogaiden]

Hello all, I've been passively following this thread for a bit now and thought I'd try to bring a bit of context to some of the feats
Superman fans have pointed out on occasion.

With regards to lifting the book with infinite pages: Shazam and superman tried to lift the book (a levitating book if anyone cares)
but ultimately failed as a result. As far as moving anything, the most they seemed to do was make some of the pages fall out of it.

As for the eternity part: the Specter is a character that contains eternity within himself. He is also a physical being which has a weight.
The story never states the amount of weight but just that eternity is heavy, with no measurements or anything to compare it to.
For what we know, the Specter could have only "weighed" as much as Jupiter in his unconscious state. At best the the statement is vague.

Now this is just from what I could gather from the scans in this comic vine link (link at end of post.) The link itself points out great
feats the character has accomplished as well as some that have been equally exaggerated. If you look at the blog replies you
can see other feats that are very supportive of Superman's abilities and even challenge the blog creators arguments if you're
of that persuasion.

As for my two cents, I feel that any assertion of lifting eternity and infinity based on whats shown in the comic book pages is a bit of a
stretch or too vague to quantify. At the very least they're poor examples of how to show Superman's "limitlessness." I guess if that's the
criteria screw attack wants to go by though then so be it, it's their fan fic.

Anyways here's the link with the scans, also pro tip: ignore the math as anyone can manipulate numbers ( yes words too) to support their claims.

http://www.comicvine.com/profile/uberhu ... ng/101036/

[Kamiccolo9]

Not gonna get into a Thor vs Superman debate here. Like I said, I love Thor, but he hasn't shown the ability to put down a guy on Superman's level. You could argue some of the upgraded Thors, but one of them is essentially featless, and the others aren't much better in that regard.

"They just don't" is not an answer. If Goku or any other DB character had been stated as being faster than light, it would be different, we would have definite proof that the physics are different there, but no statement has ever been made. And you said yourself that you have to use "some kind of physics." That's akin to saying that people make up the rules that they want Goku to work under, since these "physics" are never explained by the author. Which leads to cherry picking "calculations" and ignoring the things that make their results impossible using the same methods used to calculate them.

That may be a go-to explanation for some series, but it's never used for Dragon Ball. "Because Magic" is a perfectly valid excuse when magic itself is involved, but how do you explain Tenshinhan sprouting extra arms using real-life science? Or the Oozaru transformation? Or Freeza bulking up to his second form? Or (insert nonsensical Namekian trait that I'm too tired to think of right now)? All of these violate the first law of thermodynamics.

As for your mountain example, you can explain the fireball, but no, you can't accurately measure how strong it is, because you don't know the composition of something as vaguely described as "the mountain."

They don't contradict anything except some made-up set of rules. There are plenty of established in-universe reasons for why he's never been depicted lifting that much before. People just don't like putting in the effort, or are unaware of how Superman actually works (far more common on this forum.)

The biggest issue is taking the whole "lifting infinity" thing as only as strength feat. The whole point of that scene is not to show how strong Superman is, it's to show what he's capable of doing when he needs to. It's a more of a "character feat" than a strength feat. It's the DC writers saying essentially the same thing that Death Battle has been saying in their videos, which, as anyone who knows anything about Superman knows, is absolutely true. It's not about him being some undefeatable juggernaut with stupid-crazy feats; it's about an alien who will find a way to do whatever it takes to defend his adopted home. Going against that is going against the very character of Superman; he's the guy who does the impossible, because it's what has to be done.

http://www.comicvine.com/profile/uberhu ... ng/101036/

Note that the user this link links to was banned for misconstruing statements, spreading misinformation, extensive character-overglorification (in his case, the Hulk,) and flat-out lying in his posts. I'm not inclined to take much he says seriously.

[Polyphase Avatron]

Hello all, I've been passively following this thread for a bit now and thought I'd try to bring a bit of context to some of the feats
Superman fans have pointed out on occasion.

With regards to lifting the book with infinite pages: Shazam and superman tried to lift the book (a levitating book if anyone cares)
but ultimately failed as a result. As far as moving anything, the most they seemed to do was make some of the pages fall out of it.

The way I recall it, they did manage to lift it, at least briefly.

As for the eternity part: the Specter is a character that contains eternity within himself. He is also a physical being which has a weight.
The story never states the amount of weight but just that eternity is heavy, with no measurements or anything to compare it to.
For what we know, the Specter could have only "weighed" as much as Jupiter in his unconscious state. At best the the statement is vague.

This is completely true.

Not gonna get into a Thor vs Superman debate here. Like I said, I love Thor, but he hasn't shown the ability to put down a guy on Superman's level. You could argue some of the upgraded Thors, but one of them is essentially featless, and the others aren't much better in that regard.

Meh, Thor has done at least as much crazy stuff in his history as Post-Crisis Superman. I also think it's safe to say that Thor has a clear advantage over New 52 Superman. But if you don't want to argue it, fine. My point was that in comic book forums people don't use those 'infinity' feats as clear-cut evidence the way the people at Death Battle try to.

"They just don't" is not an answer. If Goku or any other DB character had been stated as being faster than light, it would be different, we would have definite proof that the physics are different there, but no statement has ever been made.

While it's true their speed is inconsistent, although I am pretty sure Whis is faster than light at least (traveling to all of those planets in a few days, when it takes light years to move to even the closest star from Earth).

And you said yourself that you have to use "some kind of physics." That's akin to saying that people make up the rules that they want Goku to work under, since these "physics" are never explained by the author. Which leads to cherry picking "calculations" and ignoring the things that make their results impossible using the same methods used to calculate them.

What I meant was, you have to apply some of the rules of physics from real life, or else you wouldn't be able to tell anything. Like I said, if you want to say '40 tons', that's meaningless unless you define what a 'ton' is. It's a unit of measure equal to 1,016.047 kg. What's a kg? A kilogram, 1000 grams. What's a gram? A unit originally defined as the mass of one cubic centimeter of water at the melting point of water. All of this is based on math and physics. How much energy does it take to lift a ton? You can't figure that out, without using math and physics. So you're using it even if you don't realize it.

That may be a go-to explanation for some series, but it's never used for Dragon Ball. "Because Magic" is a perfectly valid excuse when magic itself is involved, but how do you explain Tenshinhan sprouting extra arms using real-life science? Or the Oozaru transformation? Or Freeza bulking up to his second form? Or (insert nonsensical Namekian trait that I'm too tired to think of right now)? All of these violate the first law of thermodynamics.

Who knows? We don't need to understand how these things work to figure out that they do work, and at least attempt to attach numbers to them. Cavemen didn't know the physics behind how fire works, but they could still use it to cook their food and scare away predators.

As for your mountain example, you can explain the fireball, but no, you can't accurately measure how strong it is, because you don't know the composition of something as vaguely described as "the mountain."

You can if there is a description giving its general size and shape, and you know what type of rock mountains in that area of the world are typically made of. There are also approximate energy values that work for most kinds of rock.

They don't contradict anything except some made-up set of rules. There are plenty of established in-universe reasons for why he's never been depicted lifting that much before. People just don't like putting in the effort, or are unaware of how Superman actually works (far more common on this forum.)

They contradict the fact that he is clearly portrayed as not being infinite in power or strength at pretty much every other time. In fact he has needed powerups to do things like defeat Mongul's War World, which, while very powerful, clearly had a finite amount of energy.

Basically, let me put it this way: Any character that has been around for a long enough period of time in comics usually has at least a handful of downright ridiculous feats and showings that are far beyond what they would normally be capable of. People tend to dismiss these as outliers. Let me list a few that I can remember:

Thor

- Contained a bomb powerful enough to destroy 1/5th of the universe (a universe many billions of light-years across with hundreds of billions of galaxies).
- Combined his god blast with 3 others to save the entire multiverse from being destroyed
- Shook the whole 9 worlds (all different dimensions/universes) from being angry

Hulk

- Deflected an attack that destroyed the entire universe he was in, and survived the destruction

Flash

- Ran so fast he reached the other side of the universe before an alien who could teleport instantaneously got there
- Fought and nearly killed the Anti-Monitor

Wonder Woman

- Blocked an attack with the combined power of all of the Greek gods at once
- Defeated a universe-destroying goddess

Batman

- Kicked Darkseid in the face and made him bleed

Captain America

- Knocked out the Hulk with a punch
- Fought evenly against Onslaught

Spider-Man

- Defeated Firelord the Herald of Galactus
- Defeated the Juggernaut

Silver Surfer

- Defeated a reality warper that could easily create and warp universes to his will

Mr. Fantastic

- Outraced and intercepted a beam that was going billions of times faster than light

Zatanna

- Defeated a reality warper that was destroying the universe and described as being omnipotent

Doctor Strange

- Resisted attacks from the Infinity Gauntlet and the Living Tribunal

Green Lantern

- Contained a Big Bang with his ring's forcefield
- Killed Krona who had the power of all of the emotional entities

Storm

- Absorbed the power from all of the stars in the core of a galaxy

Basically very few people count these kinds of things as legit.

[Kamiccolo9]

Hello all, I've been passively following this thread for a bit now and thought I'd try to bring a bit of context to some of the feats
Superman fans have pointed out on occasion.

With regards to lifting the book with infinite pages: Shazam and superman tried to lift the book (a levitating book if anyone cares)
but ultimately failed as a result. As far as moving anything, the most they seemed to do was make some of the pages fall out of it.

The way I recall it, they did manage to lift it, at least briefly.

As for the eternity part: the Specter is a character that contains eternity within himself. He is also a physical being which has a weight.
The story never states the amount of weight but just that eternity is heavy, with no measurements or anything to compare it to.
For what we know, the Specter could have only "weighed" as much as Jupiter in his unconscious state. At best the the statement is vague.

This is completely true.

Not gonna get into a Thor vs Superman debate here. Like I said, I love Thor, but he hasn't shown the ability to put down a guy on Superman's level. You could argue some of the upgraded Thors, but one of them is essentially featless, and the others aren't much better in that regard.

Meh, Thor has done at least as much crazy stuff in his history as Post-Crisis Superman. I also think it's safe to say that Thor has a clear advantage over New 52 Superman. But if you don't want to argue it, fine. My point was that in comic book forums people don't use those 'infinity' feats as clear-cut evidence the way the people at Death Battle try to.

"They just don't" is not an answer. If Goku or any other DB character had been stated as being faster than light, it would be different, we would have definite proof that the physics are different there, but no statement has ever been made.

While it's true their speed is inconsistent, although I am pretty sure Whis is faster than light at least (traveling to all of those planets in a few days, when it takes light years to move to even the closest star from Earth).

And you said yourself that you have to use "some kind of physics." That's akin to saying that people make up the rules that they want Goku to work under, since these "physics" are never explained by the author. Which leads to cherry picking "calculations" and ignoring the things that make their results impossible using the same methods used to calculate them.

What I meant was, you have to apply some of the rules of physics from real life, or else you wouldn't be able to tell anything. Like I said, if you want to say '40 tons', that's meaningless unless you define what a 'ton' is. It's a unit of measure equal to 1,016.047 kg. What's a kg? A kilogram, 1000 grams. What's a gram? A unit originally defined as the mass of one cubic centimeter of water at the melting point of water. All of this is based on math and physics. How much energy does it take to lift a ton? You can't figure that out, without using math and physics. So you're using it even if you don't realize it.

That may be a go-to explanation for some series, but it's never used for Dragon Ball. "Because Magic" is a perfectly valid excuse when magic itself is involved, but how do you explain Tenshinhan sprouting extra arms using real-life science? Or the Oozaru transformation? Or Freeza bulking up to his second form? Or (insert nonsensical Namekian trait that I'm too tired to think of right now)? All of these violate the first law of thermodynamics.

Who knows? We don't need to understand how these things work to figure out that they do work, and at least attempt to attach numbers to them. Cavemen didn't know the physics behind how fire works, but they could still use it to cook their food and scare away predators.

As for your mountain example, you can explain the fireball, but no, you can't accurately measure how strong it is, because you don't know the composition of something as vaguely described as "the mountain."

You can if there is a description giving its general size and shape, and you know what type of rock mountains in that area of the world are typically made of. There are also approximate energy values that work for most kinds of rock.

They don't contradict anything except some made-up set of rules. There are plenty of established in-universe reasons for why he's never been depicted lifting that much before. People just don't like putting in the effort, or are unaware of how Superman actually works (far more common on this forum.)

They contradict the fact that he is clearly portrayed as not being infinite in power or strength at pretty much every other time. In fact he has needed powerups to do things like defeat Mongul's War World, which, while very powerful, clearly had a finite amount of energy.

I own every issue of Thor ever written, either physically or digitally, as well as every issue of the (X) Avengers. Believe me, I'm aware of Thor's history.

People do use the "infinity" feats in comic book forums. I'm very active in Comic Vine, and I frequent numerous others. I've seen it.

For Whis's feat, no, you don't know that he's faster than light. You don't know the size of the Dragon Ball Universe, you don't know how far he went and how much time it took, and finally, the DB Universe is curved. There's a big difference between


and



That's the point. "Some rules." By engaging in the argument in the first place, you are admitting that you are cherry picking which rules you decide to follow. That is a major fallacy. If you consistently apply physics to Dragon Ball, the DB universe falls apart. Which renders any argument about DB feats pointless except in the context of each other, as it comes down to fans picking and choosing what standards of physics they decided to judge their characters by. I mean, you can say that Goku is faster than light because he is almost as fast as a relaxed Beerus who managed to do some feat that was calculated to be faster than light by someone who has stolen somebody else's math from the internet somewhere, and I could reply that Goku is not faster than light because he does not exhibit any of the traits that are involved with that level of speed, and nothing says that he is exempt from these rules. So which one of us is right? Those are two totally irreconcilable viewpoints using completely equal methods of deduction.

In short, it doesn't work. Unless clearly defined by the story, as it stands, Goku's feats are undefinable.

You do need to know how things work to attach numbers to them, otherwise the number is meaningless. Saying that Goku's punch has a number of 8 means nothing. Saying that Goku punches with 80 pounds per square inch actually means something. Cavemen didn't need to know the exact numbers to use fire, but, then again, Cavemen weren't making thermometers, either.

And how do you know the mountain is made of the same rock as a real-life mountain? That's an assumption, and we know what assumptions do. You do not use assumptions in a debate; it leads nowhere and the whole argument falls apart because your "facts" aren't verified. I'm a history professor, and if I did that in my work, I would get laughed out of the room, and probably put under observation, if not fired and discredited.

Mongul's War World is not a book with infinite pages. The two situations are not comparable, because they are not the same. And again, you are missing the point. Superman didn't need the kind of power he used to lift the book in that instance. You could just as easily ask why Piccolo never materialized a katchin block around a foe's head in order to suffocate him. That defeats the point of the story.

[neogaiden]

Indeed, it shows that Superman would at least attempt something most would assume is absurd. That said,
deathbattle was never a battle of character but of capability, hence why so many (or vocal few) dwell on
the credibility of such feats. Any talk of character seemed to be an attempt to placate DB fans so that they
could stick to their assertion of Superman having no limits. It comes off as a cop out to side step the gaps
created by inconsistent feats / outliers that have come about over the years.

Regarding the link, he may have been banned for his fan rant but that was not the reason why I posted it.
It was for people in this thread to have access to the comic book pages so that they could decide for
themselves what had actually happened based on the images. The link posts more comic pages regarding
various events, thus adding more context to the situations as opposed to a single page.

[Saiyan007]

Whis and Beerus are very obviously faster than light

When you can leave a nebula and cross entire solar systems in less than 2 mins you are very hilariously faster than light

It doesn't even need to be stated thats just common knowledge

[Kamiccolo9]

Whis and Beerus are very obviously faster than light

When you can leave a nebula and cross entire solar systems in less than 2 mins you are very hilariously faster than light

It doesn't even need to be stated thats just common knowledge

You can assume that. You can't prove it. You don't have enough information to prove it.

[Saiyan007]

Whis and Beerus are very obviously faster than light

When you can leave a nebula and cross entire solar systems in less than 2 mins you are very hilariously faster than light

It doesn't even need to be stated thats just common knowledge

You can assume that. You can't prove it. You don't have enough information to prove it.

It's not an assumption crossing a nebula already makes him FTL

Don't know how you can ignore it

[Kamiccolo9]

Whis and Beerus are very obviously faster than light

When you can leave a nebula and cross entire solar systems in less than 2 mins you are very hilariously faster than light

It doesn't even need to be stated thats just common knowledge

You can assume that. You can't prove it. You don't have enough information to prove it.

It's not an assumption crossing a nebula already makes him FTL

Don't know how you can ignore it

No it doesn't. Speed=mass x acceleration. You don't have the information to work out that formula. You don't know how big the nebula is. You may have the time frame for how long it took, but I'm not sure about that one, so I won't dispute that.

You can't use that as a hard feat, because you have no actual data to support it. You're just guessing.

[Polyphase Avatron]

It seems you want to randomly assume the mountain in question is made out of cheese or something, as opposed to, you know, rock, which a mountain would normally be made out of. We have to assume some commonalities with real life in fiction while allowing for exceptions, otherwise any of these comparisons are just pointless.

Let's say we have someone or something in a story that travels 2 light-years in one year. Then you can say that this thing is moving twice the speed of light.

You could bring up the fact that it would take infinite energy to accelerate to lightspeed using relativity, but in this fiction, that is obviously untrue since it's moving that fast. So we can safely assume there is an exception here - it is using some kind of 'cheat' to get around the energy requirement, by warping space, traveling through another dimension, or some such thing.

You can bring up the fact that something going faster than light would go backwards in time - yet this object we observe isn't going backwards in time. So obviously there is another exception here.

In fiction, you have to make allowances for these kinds of things. But what is generally not done is to assume things are different from real life when they are not directly shown to be different. So we don't assume that the speed of light is faster in this fictional universe, or that the mountain is made out of cheese.

[Saiyan007]

You can assume that. You can't prove it. You don't have enough information to prove it.

It's not an assumption crossing a nebula already makes him FTL

Don't know how you can ignore it

No it doesn't. Speed=mass x acceleration. You don't have the information to work out that formula. You don't know how big the nebula is. You may have the time frame for how long it took, but I'm not sure about that one, so I won't dispute that.

You can't use that as a hard feat, because you have no actual data to support it. You're just guessing.

Did you just say speed equals mass times acceleration

I think you mean force

Yeah because that nebula is the size of my backyard right. .....

It's very obvious you use the average sizes of nebulas which are light years across

http://ned.ipac.caltech.edu/level5/Sept ... le1_7.html
According to the link the average one is 8000 Light years in diameter

Regardless it's a pretty clear cut Ftl feat to me unless you want to ignore average distances of things in space

[Kamiccolo9]

It seems you want to randomly assume the mountain in question is made out of cheese or something, as opposed to, you know, rock, which a mountain would normally be made out of. We have to assume some commonalities with real life in fiction while allowing for exceptions, otherwise any of these comparisons are just pointless.

Let's say we have someone or something in a story that travels 2 light-years in one year. Then you can say that this thing is moving twice the speed of light.

You could bring up the fact that it would take infinite energy to accelerate to lightspeed using relativity, but in this fiction, that is obviously untrue since it's moving that fast. So we can safely assume there is an exception here - it is using some kind of 'cheat' to get around the energy requirement, by warping space, traveling through another dimension, or some such thing.

You can bring up the fact that something going faster than light would go backwards in time - yet this object we observe isn't going backwards in time. So obviously there is another exception here.

In fiction, you have to make allowances for these kinds of things. But what is generally not done is to assume things are different from real life when they are not directly shown to be different. So we don't assume that the speed of light is faster in this fictional universe, or that the mountain is made out of cheese.

"Made of rock" doesn't really help much.
You are referring to a direct statement. That's fine. But the thing is, Dragon Ball doesn't have those.
You make allowances when there is a stated reason for them. You don't just bend the rules to fit preconceived notions. I could just as easily say that no one in Dragon Ball is above mach-whatever it takes to make a sonic boom, because no one ever does it, and it would have just as much validity as any calculations anyone else did, since Dragon Ball never says anyone is faster than that.

Long story short, if you are picking and choosing what laws of physics to use, with no prompting from the actual story itself, than your work is useless. That's why DBZ vs matches are banned on numerous forums; because the story itself is not conductive to actual feats, as essentially all of them are undefined, with no real way of defining them.

Unless you think that the guy above me's "It's obvious, lol" is an adequate answer. Seriously, you cannot assume that facts are in evidence without being able to confirm them. You cannot. That's debating at its most basic. I cannot believe that I have to spell that out. I honestly expected better out of the community here.