Death Battle: Goku vs Superman 2

[White Oni]

Beerus can effortlessly obliterate half a planet with the tap of a finger...

Whis confirmed that FTL speeds are present in the DB universe.


People like to talk about weight lifting feats but any points made by those numbers are made completely moot, when you consider that IMPACT force, not weight lifting is relevant to fighting...

The same way the flash can't lift anywhere near as much as superman, but yet, can pack just as strong, if not stronger a punch.

One of the most powerful impact forces in DC is the HIGHLY risky Infinite Mass Punch, dubbed so, because it's a punch performed while traveling at the speed of light.

Both the flash and Superman have performed the punch and both have been knocked out by forces far weaker.

Have you seen the video for the Deathbattle? They show a Superman feat of him traveling literally millions of times faster than light speed in minutes. And that's not even his fastest version of fastest feat.

There's even a time where superman travels so fast, that he breaks reality and has to stop, because he begins to lose grip of his own being.

Again, these speeds REQUIRE him to be in space and for him to build speed AND move vertically. He doesn't fight using this speed... The only time he uses it is to get somewhere fast (PIS) and sometimes to perform the Infinite mass punch or something like it.

Goku would never let his opponent, not only leave earth, but build up speed in preparation for an attack. AND goku can IT away from anything heading his way. As soon as he saw Superman even attempting to head towards him with a speed even approaching something he couldn't track, he'd IT away from that trajectory.

[rereboy]

Again, these speeds REQUIRE him to be in space and for him to build speed AND move vertically.

Baseless assumption. In the comics Superman once traveled so fast within Earth's atmosphere in a short distance that he traveled to prehistoric times. Not to mention that it doesn't make any sense for Superman to be millions of times slower just because he is in an atmosphere.

[White Oni]

Again, these speeds REQUIRE him to be in space and for him to build speed AND move vertically.

Baseless assumption. In the comics Superman once traveled so fast within Earth's atmosphere in a short distance that he traveled to prehistoric times. Not to mention that it doesn't make any sense for Superman to be millions of times slower just because he is in an atmosphere.

Baseless assumption?

During his race with the flash, and on other occasions, he outright says that traveling on earth is unfair to him, because he can't move as fast.

Never read that comic, can I get a link to the feat so I can factor it in?

"Doesn't make sense"

Nothing about superman makes scientific sense, you aren't allowed to turn your brain off when he does something amazing and suddenly become a stubborn scientist when something lame about him is being brought up.

For goodness sakes, you just said "he traveled to pre historic times by going really fast." LOL

[KaiserNeko]

It was a poorly written, dull mess, full of lackluster fighting and an absolutely bullshit ending that almost rivals the first for being not only out of character, but completely and utterly boring. They consistently get the characters wrong, break their own internal logic time and time again, and just enjoy the controversy that will bring them views and money.

So in that regard, they do sound like DC writers...

[voltlunok]

Again, these speeds REQUIRE him to be in space and for him to build speed AND move vertically.

Sadly incorrect. There are plenty of examples of Supes going from 0 to supersonic in an instant. There are also probably examples of him going from 0 to FTL in an instant. (Not super up to date on the superman comics these days...hehe...super up to date..see what I did there?)

Most of the points you've made are baseless assumptions and really have no solid footings other then your belief in them. While yes Whis is confirmed FTL, that's Whis. Goku doesn't get FTL status just cause Whis does. Going by the logic you put forward, every fighter in the DBZ universe is FTL, Every. Fighter.

It was a poorly written, dull mess, full of lackluster fighting and an absolutely bullshit ending that almost rivals the first for being not only out of character, but completely and utterly boring. They consistently get the characters wrong, break their own internal logic time and time again, and just enjoy the controversy that will bring them views and money.

So in that regard, they do sound like DC writers...

What he said. Well put Kaiser.

[Polyphase Avatron]

Anyways, someone has to do an actual, in depth analysis on the two fighters and come to some sort of reasonable consensus.

People have been trying to do just that for years. This has been debated on the internet since at least 2004, and probably earlier. The problem is that neither side is willing to back down, and there is a lot of ambiguity involved (for example, one of the biggest questions is what kind of methodology/philosophy you use to even approach this kind of question - if you look at Kamicollo's posts earlier you can see that he has a method of thinking about this that uses completely different rules and can lead to completely different conclusions than other methods).

Bottom line: There is no definitive answer, there never has been, and there never will be. It can be fun to argue about it to a point, but at least for me, when people get too invested in it, it just becomes ugly.

[Polyphase Avatron]

Again, these speeds REQUIRE him to be in space and for him to build speed AND move vertically.

Sadly incorrect. There are plenty of examples of Supes going from 0 to supersonic in an instant. There are also probably examples of him going from 0 to FTL in an instant. (Not super up to date on the superman comics these days...hehe...super up to date..see what I did there?)

Most of the points you've made are baseless assumptions and really have no solid footings other then your belief in them. While yes Whis is confirmed FTL, that's Whis. Goku doesn't get FTL status just cause Whis does. Going by the logic you put forward, every fighter in the DBZ universe is FTL, Every. Fighter.

The thing is that, at least the way I recall it, Superman is perfectly capable of going at ridiculous speeds on Earth, he just doesn't do so because if he did, the Earth would be severely damaged or destroyed as a side effect.

Either way, refer to my last post for my final say on this.

[voltlunok]

The thing is that, at least the way I recall it, Superman is perfectly capable of going at ridiculous speeds on Earth, he just doesn't do so because if he did, the Earth would be severely damaged or destroyed as a side effect.

Either way, refer to my last post for my final say on this.

Yes you are correct. Superman doesn't go at his insane speeds on Earth due to the adverse affects it would have on the planet. The damage he'd do would be pretty severe depending where he starts, goes through and overall how fast he goes.

I agree with your last post. I think this debate is fun when we put the fandom faith down and talk about it in a civil manner but overall there is no answer. There is just not enough consistent numbers on either side to give a concrete answer.

[White Oni]

Again, these speeds REQUIRE him to be in space and for him to build speed AND move vertically.

Sadly incorrect. There are plenty of examples of Supes going from 0 to supersonic in an instant. There are also probably examples of him going from 0 to FTL in an instant. (Not super up to date on the superman comics these days...hehe...super up to date..see what I did there?)

Most of the points you've made are baseless assumptions and really have no solid footings other then your belief in them. While yes Whis is confirmed FTL, that's Whis. Goku doesn't get FTL status just cause Whis does. Going by the logic you put forward, every fighter in the DBZ universe is FTL, Every. Fighter.

Supersonic speeds are nothing... That's Dragon ball (no Z or super) level....

No offense but, "There's probably" doesn't belong in this discussion...

You claim I'm making baseless assumptions and yet don't even bother reading my entire post before simply stating how my logic works...
If you bothered reading my Original post and not the cut down, interuppted quote someone made it into. You'd know that my observation of whis is ONLY to establish that FTL speeds are imaginable in DBZ. It wasn't used to create some sort of silly non-sequitur.

Reading onward will show you that my reasoning was as follows:

here's the deal, Roshi fires a KMHMH at the moon that blows it up, Big deal, blowing up the moon is child's play for DBZ right? Well sure, but have you stopped to think about how fast someone would have to be to dodge such a blast? The blast had to be traveling at someone between 1-3/3 the speed of light to reach the moon in such a short period of time.

That means that someone dodging that blast would have to move (let's be generous here) somewhere between 1-100/100th the speed of light. Given that there's some time between the release of the blast, and the blast reaching the person, for the attacked person to respond and move.


By the end of Z, Goku can effortlessly dodge attacks like this, meaning that his fighting speed is EASILY FTL.

Yes, superman CAN travel at the speed of light AND sometimes even faster, to the point where he can actually break the boundaries of reality itself. HOWEVER, he's only ever able to accomplish this in the vacuum of space and after some time of building speed. He lacks something like the speed force or Ki, to move himself at such speeds without momentum.

[rereboy]

Baseless assumption?

During his race with the flash, and on other occasions, he outright says that traveling on earth is unfair to him, because he move as fast.

That's called inconsistency. Superman's abilities are filled with them due to the difference of writers, the sheer number of years Superman has existed, the reboots, and the fact that Superman has always been a character that is as strong and as fast as the writers wanted him to be. You are just taking a low-end example from a comic to argue that the high-end examples are irrelevant or to try to rationalize them. Deathbattle didn't focus on any particular version of Superman, moment in time or example. They looked at the big picture, at the potential of his abilities as they are, overall, portrayed, and, since he's pretty much shown to not really have limits when they don't want him to, that's the overall conclusion.

You can focus on a particular version of Superman as written by a particular writer, on a particular moment in time, and I'm sure there's lots of Supermans that Goku could beat, but that's just cheery picking, not looking at the big picture of the character.

Never read that comic, can I get a link to the feat so I can factor it in?

I have no link because it was a long time ago and it's just an example, there's no point in focusing in just one example.

"Doesn't make sense"

Nothing about superman makes scientific sense, you aren't allowed to turn your brain off when he does something amazing and suddenly become a stubborn scientist when something lame about him is being brought up.

For goodness sakes, you just said "he traveled to pre historic times by going really fast." LOL

Precisely because it doesn't make sense is why there's really no sense in arguing that he would be millions of times slower. In a particular comic, in a particular moment in time, if the writers wanted it to happen, maybe that could happen, but the opposite could just as easily happen. You are arguing that it would definitely happen...

[voltlunok]

Again, these speeds REQUIRE him to be in space and for him to build speed AND move vertically.

Sadly incorrect. There are plenty of examples of Supes going from 0 to supersonic in an instant. There are also probably examples of him going from 0 to FTL in an instant. (Not super up to date on the superman comics these days...hehe...super up to date..see what I did there?)

Most of the points you've made are baseless assumptions and really have no solid footings other then your belief in them. While yes Whis is confirmed FTL, that's Whis. Goku doesn't get FTL status just cause Whis does. Going by the logic you put forward, every fighter in the DBZ universe is FTL, Every. Fighter.

Supersonic speeds are nothing... That's Dragon ball (no Z or super) level....

No offense but, "There's probably" doesn't belong in this discussion...

You claim I'm making baseless assumptions and yet don't even bother reading my entire post before simply stating how my logic works...
If you bothered reading my Original post and not the cut down, interuppted quote someone made it into. You'd know that my observation of whis is ONLY to establish that FTL speeds are imaginable in DBZ. It wasn't used to create some sort of silly non-sequitur.

Reading onward will show you that my reasoning was as follows:

here's the deal, Roshi fires a KMHMH at the moon that blows it up, Big deal, blowing up the moon is child's play for DBZ right? Well sure, but have you stopped to think about how fast someone would have to be to dodge such a blast? The blast had to be traveling at someone between 1-3/3 the speed of light to reach the moon in such a short period of time.

That means that someone dodging that blast would have to move (let's be generous here) somewhere between 1-100/100th the speed of light. Given that there's some time between the release of the blast, and the blast reaching the person, for the attacked person to respond and move.


By the end of Z, Goku can effortlessly dodge attacks like this, meaning that his fighting speed is EASILY FTL.

Yes, superman CAN travel at the speed of light AND sometimes even faster, to the point where he can actually break the boundaries of reality itself. HOWEVER, he's only ever able to accomplish this in the vacuum of space and after some time of building speed. He lacks something like the speed force or Ki, to move himself at such speeds without momentum.

And again, by that logic. By saying "Because Goku can dodge attacks like these!" that means EVERYONE in Z is fighting FTL speeds. It's slippery slope logic. Like I said before and like many in this thread have said before me saying it. There isn't enough consistent numbers on either side to give a concrete answer. Also to snip another quote from you "Nothing about superman makes scientific sense, you aren't allowed to turn your brain off when he does something amazing and suddenly become a stubborn scientist when something lame about him is being brought up." The same can be said about Goku.

Also you assume I haven't read your post because I don't quote the whole thing, no I don't quote the whole thing because I'd rather not bloat the thread by quoting a large post. So to that, I bow out of this thread cause I've made my point a few times now. Do enjoy your discussion.

[Rocketman]

Goku was faster than light as a kid. That's why it took him as an adult a day to fly down Snake Way, and why everybody said it was impossible for him to get Roshi's glasses so fast.

[White Oni]

Baseless assumption?

During his race with the flash, and on other occasions, he outright says that traveling on earth is unfair to him, because he move as fast.

That's called inconsistency. Superman's abilities are filled with them due to the difference of writers, the sheer number of years Superman has existed, the reboots, and the fact that Superman has always been a character that is as strong and as fast as the writers wanted him to be. You are just taking a low-end example from a comic to argue that the high-end examples are irrelevant or to try to rationalize them. Deathbattle didn't focus on any particular version of Superman, moment in time or example. They looked at the big picture, at the potential of his abilities as they are, overall, portrayed, and, since he's pretty much shown to not really have limits when they don't want him to, that's the overall conclusion.

You can focus on a particular version of Superman as written by a particular writer, on a particular moment in time, and I'm sure there's lots of Supermans that Goku could beat, but that's just cheery picking, not looking at the big picture of the character.

Never read that comic, can I get a link to the feat so I can factor it in?

I have no link because it was a long time ago and it's just an example, there's no point in focusing in just one example.

"Doesn't make sense"

Nothing about superman makes scientific sense, you aren't allowed to turn your brain off when he does something amazing and suddenly become a stubborn scientist when something lame about him is being brought up.

For goodness sakes, you just said "he traveled to pre historic times by going really fast." LOL

Precisely because it doesn't make sense is why there's really no sense in arguing that he would be millions of times slower. In a particular comic, in a particular moment in time, if the writers wanted it to happen, maybe that could happen, but the opposite could just as easily happen. You are arguing that it would definitely happen...

Polyphase Avatron had it right.


There are different ways to even begin approaching this issue and I'm afraid that's the issue here.

Seems that you're under the impression that Superman can do anything you could imagine a writer wanting him to do in a fight. That means he's literally omnipotent and the prospect of him being defeated, by anyone, not just goku, is absurd...

You cherry pick examples of him doing amazing things, and yet, don't accept the same downfalls or less feats of the superman who did that one amazing feat, you simpy carry over that amazing thing to the next superman and continue until you have one ultimate character who's some sort of badly written collage of all the best things the many versions of supes has done, and none of the bad.

I get it... I'm doing something similar.

Well, my lazy writting probably appears that way at least.

In my own mind though I'm trying to imagine the following: Here's MY starting approach/philosophy about this discussion.

I'm trying to imagine this actually being done in real life. In other words, a real bonified comic constructed by someone who's a fan of both works and a writer of neither.

I do not believe that people would simply accept an actual comic where superman does all the absurdly amazing things he's done over the many iterations he's had. people are usaully fine reading these things ONCE in a great while, because they're PIS... But imagine an actual comic where superman faces doomsday and doomsday doesn't stand a ghost of a chance, because superman instantaneously breaks reality with his speed and obliterates him into bio soup...

I think we'd all agree that something was amiss, BECAUSE, none of us actually believe superman has it in him to do something stupid like that. Does superman simply mess around with the lives of humans and the safety of his friends 99.99% of the time? When he could easily be destroying every single imaginable threat in an unbelievably short amount of time? Or are these events PIS and outliers that are CONDITIONAL to certain events.

Basically, what the average reader and EVEN THE WRITERS accept as fact, when it comes to superman and a lot of other comics is the following "Doing it once =/= Always being able to do it."


I have to concede though, if we're stripping superman of EVERYTHING that makes him the character anyone of us has come to know. And we simply imagine him as a super blood thirsty character with none of his prior iterations' flaws and ALL of their PIS powers, we have someone who Goku can't stand a chance against.


I've ALWAYS believed that certain iterations of superman win against Goku: Thought robot supes and Superman Prime come to mind. Even some sun dipped regular supes. But that's not what I'm concerned with. Goku wins against MOST supermen IMHO and the ones he loses to are strange, unpopular (in comparison) versions who people can't really identify as superman... and really can't be beaten by anyone with power short of omnipotence.

The one character that does break away from this is the super popular silver age superman, but again, omnipotence.

[Polyphase Avatron]

A lot of these arguments for both sides also rely on using one standard to analyze one side and another one to analyze something else. Like for example you could say that Green Lantern John Stewart once sniped an enemy with a ring blast from many galaxies away in under a second, and Superman has dodged Green Lantern blasts, so Superman must be ridiculously fast... but that's just as bad as saying Goku is ridiculously fast because he dodged a ki blast and those have reached the moon, or whatever.

Basically there are a lot of inconsistencies all over, so depending on what arguments and showings you use, you can come up with a whole bunch of different claims for how fast/strong/powerful Goku, Superman, or most other fictional characters are.

[KaiserNeko]

Superman has been totally, inconsistently written for the last 60+ years. Depending on which incarnation, which writer, which medium you pull from, you get varying degrees of strength, skill, and even personality.

That's why the entire fight was a bad idea to begin with... but combined with the lazy writing and hand-waving excuses, it all ended up being a boring mess.

[White Oni]

And again, by that logic. By saying "Because Goku can dodge attacks like these!" that means EVERYONE in Z is fighting FTL speeds. It's slippery slope logic. Like I said before and like many in this thread have said before me saying it. There isn't enough consistent numbers on either side to give a concrete answer. Also to snip another quote from you "Nothing about superman makes scientific sense, you aren't allowed to turn your brain off when he does something amazing and suddenly become a stubborn scientist when something lame about him is being brought up." The same can be said about Goku.

Also you assume I haven't read your post because I don't quote the whole thing, no I don't quote the whole thing because I'd rather not bloat the thread by quoting a large post. So to that, I bow out of this thread cause I've made my point a few times now. Do enjoy your discussion.

Lol, wait you believe I'm denying that most Z fighters are FTL? I'm not... They certainly are. Just because a fact leads to a conclusion about many characters, it doesn't make that fact wrong... That's not the slippery slope fallacy...

No, I assumed you didn't read my whole post because you said my logic worked as follows: "Whis is FTL, therefore, Goku is FTL." When anyone reading my OP would know that's completely inaccurate to my train of thought.

Yes, the absolute same can be said about goku! I've never denied this... So I don't see your point.

[rereboy]

Superman has been utterly, inconsistently written for the last 60+ years. Depending on which incarnation, which writer, which medium you pull from, you get varying degrees of strength, skill, and even personality.

That's why the entire fight was a bad idea to begin with... but combined with the terrible writing and bullshit excuses, it all ended up being a boring mess that served little more than to make them money.

I agree that is was boring, but their conclusion is pretty much the only way to get beyond the inconsistencies of Superman because, otherwise, we are literally alway forced to choose what "counts" and what doesn't.

[Rocketman]

[KaiserNeko]

I agree that is was boring, but their conclusion is pretty much the only way to get beyond the inconsistencies of Superman because, otherwise, we are literally alway forced to choose what "counts" and what doesn't.

Which is why the entire Death Battle is ridiculous, to me. I mean, the first one would have been mostly fine, despite the gross mischaracterizations and completely ridiculous ending, but this second one largely feels like it's just capitalizing on the success of the first. It was worse written and even more poorly choreographed, and even inconsistent with it's own internal logic and the precedence set by the previous installment.

It's just... frustrating.

[White Oni]

For anyone interested, here are some good reads on the subject...

Combat Speed of Dragon Ball Characters

How Fast are Dragon Ball Characters

Dbz Characters are FTL

My favorite, but not without its flaws, a super analysis of both characters:

Death Battle Erred: Goku vs Superman