Herms' Guide Guide (Collection of Information Awesomeness)

[Piccolo Daimao]

Dudes, everything is canon, just different continuities. There's the manga continuity and the anime continuity, among others.

That's why I said "manga canon". The Bardock special can fit into both canons, and that Daizenshuu 6 quote supports it. Normally, when people mention "canon", they're talking about the manga, as it's pretty much wholly accepted as the primary source for accurate information in debates and whatnot, being that it's the original work.

Well you can debate over how much the Bardock special fits in the Toriyama-canon. He included Bardock in the Manga, so Bardock is certainly canon. But does that mean the entire Bardock special is part of the manga canon? I don't think so, it only is to some degree.

When Toriyama was asked how he came up with Bardock's name he said the following "I don’t really remember this. Did he even appear in the original story [i.e. the manga]? If he was in the original story, then his name was definitely taken from a vegetable." Toriyama forgot he included Bardock, but he was right that it wasn't him who made up the name (his assistent did). That doesn't mean Bardock isn't canon, since obviously he appears in the Manga. More importantly Toriyama differentiates between the Bardock TV special and the "original story".

There's also at least one mistake in the Bardock special. As is explained in the manga, Goku was a really agressive and unfriendly kid when he was found by Gohan. Yet at the end of the Bardock special Goku appears extremely friendly and happy when he's found by Gohan, directly contradicting the Manga.

I know all that. I'm just stating the reason why some, including me, believe that the Bardock special is manga canon. But others, including you, are perfectly entitled to your opinion that it isn't, and that only Bardock is manga canon.

As for the supposed discrepancy of Goku being described as angry in the manga and happy in the special, I believe that this can be reconciled with the explanation that he was simply in a good mood when Gohan found him, but became aggressive at times later. I doubt that Goku would be enraged 100% of the time (I mean, not even adult Saiyans are angry all the time), and I think the anime itself does display moments where baby Goku is aggressive.

[FNF]

AT was credited as a supervisor for the Yo Son Goku and Bardock specials. That's basically nothing. I don't see how you can even consider the specials canon.

[Piccolo Daimao]

AT was credited as a supervisor for the Yo Son Goku and Bardock specials. That's basically nothing. I don't see how you can even consider the specials canon.

...

Have you missed something?

[hleV]

Future Trunks special contradicts the manga, so it's not manga-canon. Bardock special doesn't contradict the manga, however we've seen how another special is not manga-canon, so it's pretty safe to say that Bardock special is also non-manga-canon. Plus it wasn't created by AT, and as someone said, AT differentiates the Bardock special from the original story.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Future Trunks special contradicts the manga, so it's not manga-canon. Bardock special doesn't contradict the manga, however we've seen how another special is not manga-canon, so it's pretty safe to say that Bardock special is also non-manga-canon. Plus it wasn't created by AT, and as someone said, AT differentiates the Bardock special from the original story.

The Trunks special, I understand, since, obviously, the events that transpired in the anime special are different to those in the manga special (i.e. Trunks already being SSj when Gohan dies, #17's "less-than-half-power" line, Gohan being killed by #17 alone rather than #17 & 18). But the Bardock special can still be manga canon, and it really doesn't contradict anything in the manga. And did you see my reply? Just because Goku was described as being aggressive as a child before his knock on the head doesn't mean that he was like that all the time.

So don't just say "it's pretty safe to say that Bardock special is also non-manga-canon". Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. The Bardock special itself wasn't created by Toriyama, but he still included Bardock and a scene that closely mirrors his last stand against Freeza in two panels of the actual manga, meaning that there's still support for the opinion that the Bardock special is manga canon. Not to mention, as dbgtFO mentioned on the last page, Daizenshuu 6's section for the Bardock special said this:

A story that is unfolded in the timeframes of both the original work and the TV series.

[Fox666]

Well you can debate over how much the Bardock special fits in the Toriyama-canon. He included Bardock in the Manga, so Bardock is certainly canon. But does that mean the entire Bardock special is part of the manga canon? I don't think so, it only is to some degree.

When Toriyama was asked how he came up with Bardock's name he said the following "I don’t really remember this. Did he even appear in the original story [i.e. the manga]? If he was in the original story, then his name was definitely taken from a vegetable." Toriyama forgot he included Bardock, but he was right that it wasn't him who made up the name (his assistent did). That doesn't mean Bardock isn't canon, since obviously he appears in the Manga. More importantly Toriyama differentiates between the Bardock TV special and the "original story".

There's also at least one mistake in the Bardock special. As is explained in the manga, Goku was a really agressive and unfriendly kid when he was found by Gohan. Yet at the end of the Bardock special Goku appears extremely friendly and happy when he's found by Gohan, directly contradicting the Manga.

Well, that's interesting. The manga also seems to follow minor details over the special:

Freeza: “Oh, is that right? Look vee—eery closely. This isn’t something you get to see very often. Even when I attacked Planet Vegeta, where the Saiyans lived, and fought with the king, I was able to win without any need to transform whatsoever…Vegeta…your father wasn’t anything special.”

[Piccolo Daimao]

There's nothing wrong with that. See my reply.

As for the supposed discrepancy of Goku being described as angry in the manga and happy in the special, I believe that this can be reconciled with the explanation that he was simply in a good mood when Gohan found him, but became aggressive at times later. I doubt that Goku would be enraged 100% of the time (I mean, not even adult Saiyans are angry all the time), and I think the anime itself does display moments where baby Goku is aggressive.

Just because Goku was described as being aggressive as a child before his knock on the head doesn't mean that he was like that all the time.

And yes, just like in the manga, Freeza killed the King and destroyed Planet Vegeta without the need to transform. There's no discrepancy there.

[Fox666]

A rottweiler or a pitbull puppy is not aggressive. Goku may have developed that attitude only after a certain age.

[Piccolo Daimao]

A rottweiler or a pitbull puppy is not aggressive. Goku may have developed that attitude only after a certain age.

Exactly.

[Bussani]

AT was credited as a supervisor for the Yo Son Goku and Bardock specials. That's basically nothing. I don't see how you can even consider the specials canon.

Because that has little if anything to do with canonicity.

[Fox666]

The way Toei uses "supervisor" is generally meaningless.

[Pieter]

Future Trunks special contradicts the manga, so it's not manga-canon. Bardock special doesn't contradict the manga, however we've seen how another special is not manga-canon, so it's pretty safe to say that Bardock special is also non-manga-canon. Plus it wasn't created by AT, and as someone said, AT differentiates the Bardock special from the original story.

Well there's a difference. AT does refer to the special by including part of the Bardock story. Hence I said the Bardock special is canon to some degree. What is and isn't canon about it is hard to determine. In the end canon here is what exists or existed in AT's mind.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Future Trunks special contradicts the manga, so it's not manga-canon. Bardock special doesn't contradict the manga, however we've seen how another special is not manga-canon, so it's pretty safe to say that Bardock special is also non-manga-canon. Plus it wasn't created by AT, and as someone said, AT differentiates the Bardock special from the original story.

Well there's a difference. AT does refer to the special by including part of the Bardock story. Hence I said the Bardock special is canon to some degree. What is and isn't canon about it is hard to determine. In the end canon here is what exists or existed in AT's mind.

Which we'll probably never know because I doubt Toriyama's the type of person to care or even acknowledge manga/anime/whatever canonicity, not to mention his infamous forgetfulness. If someone was to ask him if the Bardock special was canon, he'd probably answer with one of four replies:

1) "Bardock special? What's that? Did I make that?"
2) "What's canon?"
3) "Er...yeah, it's canon. Or a side-story." *shrug*

Or the least likely:

4) "Stop asking me questions about things I don't know or care about. I hate Dragon Ball and I don't give a shit who this "Son Gokuu" guy is. AND WHERE'S MY FUCKING CHEQUE? Thank you, come again."

[Pieter]

Future Trunks special contradicts the manga, so it's not manga-canon. Bardock special doesn't contradict the manga, however we've seen how another special is not manga-canon, so it's pretty safe to say that Bardock special is also non-manga-canon. Plus it wasn't created by AT, and as someone said, AT differentiates the Bardock special from the original story.

Well there's a difference. AT does refer to the special by including part of the Bardock story. Hence I said the Bardock special is canon to some degree. What is and isn't canon about it is hard to determine. In the end canon here is what exists or existed in AT's mind.

Which we'll probably never know because I doubt Toriyama's the type of person to care or even acknowledge manga/anime/whatever canonicity, not to mention his infamous forgetfulness. If someone was to ask him if the Bardock special was canon, he'd probably answer with one of four replies:

1) "Bardock special? What was that? Did I make that?"
2) "What's canon?"
3) "Er...yeah, it's canon. Or a side-story." *shrug*

Or the least likely:

4) "Stop asking me questions about things I don't know or care about. I hate Dragon Ball and I don't give a shit who this "Son Goku" guy is. AND WHERE'S MY FUCKING CHEQUE? Thank you, come again."

Nah, that's how I used to view Toriyama, but reading more of his interviews has changed my views on him. He does forget stuff, but that's because he created some of it years and years ago and it seems like he never re-read his own work (whereas we've viewed it a dozen times). At the same time he also remembers quite a lot. In the name puns section for example he remembers a lot of minor characters that I myself had forgotten about.

My first post on this page has a quote of Toriyama where he clearly differentiates between "the original story" and the tv specials, and there's another quote of his in which he refers to GT as a "side story".

[Piccolo Daimao]

My first post on this page has a quote of Toriyama where he clearly differentiates between "the original story" and the tv specials, and there's another quote of his in which he refers to GT as a "side story".

Yeah, that's true, but all that proves is that he forgot whether or not Bardock appeared in the original story. But the story of the TV special could've still occured in the manga.

Anyway, I think we should end it here, because we know that you have your opinion and I have mine. Both are valid, which is fine.

[Pieter]

My first post on this page has a quote of Toriyama where he clearly differentiates between "the original story" and the tv specials, and there's another quote of his in which he refers to GT as a "side story".

Yeah, that's true, but all that proves is that he forgot whether or not Bardock appeared in the original story. But the story of the TV special could've still occured in the manga.

Anyway, I think we should end it here, because we know that you have your opinion and I have mine. Both are valid, which is fine.

That's alright. On a quick note though, in the manga according to Roshi Goku fell on his head as a baby, not as a boy. It also says that Goku was a violent baby found in the woods who couldn't be tamed by anyone. The reason was because he was indoctrinated to kill everyone on earth (of course including grandpa Gohan). Maybe someone could translate it from the original japanese, but otherwise it seems obvious that this scene in the Bardock special contradicts the Manga. But of course like you said everyone can have his personal canon, and this scene is only a minor part of the Bardock special.

[Piccolo Daimao]

My first post on this page has a quote of Toriyama where he clearly differentiates between "the original story" and the tv specials, and there's another quote of his in which he refers to GT as a "side story".

Yeah, that's true, but all that proves is that he forgot whether or not Bardock appeared in the original story. But the story of the TV special could've still occured in the manga.

Anyway, I think we should end it here, because we know that you have your opinion and I have mine. Both are valid, which is fine.

That's alright. On a quick note though, in the manga according to Roshi Goku fell on his head as a baby, not as a boy. It also says that Goku was a violent baby found in the woods who couldn't be tamed by anyone. The reason was because he was indoctrinated to kill everyone on earth (of course including grandpa Gohan). Maybe someone could translate it from the original japanese, but otherwise it seems obvious that this scene in the Bardock special contradicts the Manga. But of course like you said everyone can have his personal canon, and this scene is only a minor part of the Bardock special.

I'll just say this one last thing.

Just because Goku was a violent baby doesn't mean that he was violent 100% of the time. He could've just been in a good mood when Gohan found him, but then became aggressive at times later. Perhaps you could compare it to, as Fox666 mentioned, a stray pitbull terrier that may be fine at first when you find it, but then it gets angry, breaks loose and ends up viciously hacking a man's face to death once it gets settled in.

[Fox666]

I just noticed in Strength Checker there are some repeated entries in Son Goku during the Cell Games. For example we see this line twice:

"Karin: “H-half power…?! Wh-what a fearsome guy you are…H-how strong will you become before you’re satisfied…?!”"

[gohan2k]

I don't really have anything useful to add but I just wanted to express my gratitude to Herms for all he has done in these guides. I can only imagine how long this must of taken to do and I just want to say thanks.

I'm writing a short fanfic right now and they're proving invaluable as well as just generally being facinating reads!!

Thanks Herms!!

[OWmyDragonBallz]

To me, I ultimately believe that in the end, Canon is all decided by the Original Creator of the series and not technically by the original source itself. By looking at all his interviews, I highly doubt the man even knows what Canon means. However I did notice in one of his interviews he says "DB; it's the anime and the manga" - Kanzentai. Canon is what's accepted as authentic by the author regardless of it being the original source or it's adaptation brought to life on film. In the end, whatever you decide is to be canon is up to you. The anime and manga of DB both deliver the same overall message the series itself spreads in their Original Japanese versions. It's best not to compare them as the results won't turn out the same because of extended material in the Anime and the shorter paced manga that both cause minor differences in comparison.

Bardock and trunks specials are canon as well as the manga versions mainly determining on what you want to accept.