Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[CatouttaHell]

Gohan's out of shape. Gohan's concerned because he's out of shape and the two brats who are like half his age at that point in time really would overtake him if he didn't start seriously training. The Daizenhuu's entry is vague, and never specifics when exactly and which Gohan equals Goten. I could even take it to mean Post RoSaT Goten = Gohan , or leave it to be Goten = Pre Training Ultra Rusty Gohan.

So he grazed Vegeta. That means absolutely nothing other than Vegeta underestimating him, or being much more exhausted than he thought after his own workout. Our understanding of "worlds below" simply differ. Absolutely nothing says they even knew Piccolo was entering to fight.

You don't think Gohan ever told Goten that he invited Piccolo? Pre-Training is exactly as strong as Cell Games Gohan, as also said in the Daizenshuu (which makes sense IMO since Ki cannot atrophy,) so that would still mean Goten is a beast. I personally don't agree with that entry being about Post-RoSaT Goten but it's definitely possible and I can't disprove it anyway.

Trunks was also training with Vegeta so I doubt he was at his fullest when he landed that hit on Vegeta either. But to each their own. I personally think Goten and Trunks rival Gohan but that's just my opinion.

[Kirby456]

Heres my current list. Not finished yet.

Android Saga
Vegeta SSJ = 220,000,000
Goku SSJ = 210,000,000
Trunks SSJ = 170,000,000
19 = 5,000,000
- with energy = 140,000,000
Piccolo = 120,000,000
20 = 20,000,000
- with energy = 90,000,000
Gohan = 90,000,000
Tienshinhan = 4,700,000
Krillin = 3,400,000
Yamcha = 1,500,000

Cell Saga
Initial Perfect Cell = 1,360,000,000
- Buffed up = 1,550,000,000
USSJ Trunks = 1,550,000,000
- ASSJ = 880,000,000
Ascended Vegeta = 910,000,000
- SSJ = 750,000,000
Stage 2 Cell Initial = 660,000,000
- Stage 2 Cell Full Power = 730,000,000
Imperfect Cell + Humans = 345,000,000
16 = 340,000,000
Kamiccolo = 270,000,000
17 = 270,000,000
18 = 220,000,000

Cell Games
Gohan MSSJ = 5,000,000,000
- Base = 980,000,000
- SSJ2 = 30,000,000,000 and Injured = 28,000,000,000
Perfect Cell = 6,000,000,000
- Full Power = 15,000,000,000
- Buff Beyond Limits = 23,000,000,000
- Super Perfect Cell = 29,000,000,000
Goku 50% MSSJ = 3,000,000,000
- 100% = 6,000,000,000
Cell Jrs = 2,600,000,000
- Anime = 2,550,000,000
Vegeta SSJ = 2,100,000,000
- Anime = 2,650,000,000
Trunks SSJ = 2,000,000,000
- Anime = 2,600,000,000
Piccolo = 1,000,000,000
- Anime = 2,600,000,000 (fought 3 Juniors at once and did a ton of damage and made a comeback and fought 1 dead evenly)
16 repaired = 341,000,000
Mr Satan = 8
Proshiki = 7
Cronie = 6.50

Buu Saga
Base Goku = 1,900,000,000
- MSSJ = 12,000,000,000
- SSJ2 = 49,000,000,000
Base Vegeta = 1,650,000,000
- MSSJ = 10,000,000,000
- SSJ2 = 45,000,000,000
- Majin SSJ2 = 49,100,000,000
Dabura = 17,000,000,000
Gohan = 910,000,000
- MSSJ = 3,400,000,000
- SSJ2 = 17,000,000,000
Piccolo = 1,150,000,000
- Anime = 3,600,000,000
Kid Trunks = 200,000,000
- SSJ = 2,870,000,000
Goten = 197,000,000
- SSJ = 2,750,000,000
Yakon = 1,350,000,000
Pui Pui = 750,000,000
Babidi = 10
- Magic used in anime Vs Piccolo = 695,000,000
East Kaioshin = 690,000,000
Kibito = 540,000,000
18= 220,000,000
Yamu = 60
Spopovich = 19
- Old Spopovich = 6
Videl = 14
Mr Satan = 13
Pintar = 6.70
Jewel = 6
Killah = 6

Fusion Saga
Vegito Suppressed = 6,000,000,000,000
- Mastered Super Saiyan Vegito nowere near true power = 100,000,000,000,000
Majin Buu = 201,000,000,000
- Angry to point of splitting = 550,000,000,000
- Evil Buu Gray = 350,000,000,000 (did much better against Good Buu then Kid Buu did, well Good Buu landed hits on Kid Buu he couldnt land anything on Evil Buu)
- Super Buu = 550,000,000,000
- Buutenks = 1,150,000,000,000
- Buuhan = 4,000,000,000,000
Mystic Gohan = 860,000,000,000
Gotenks = 38,000,000,000
- Super Saiyan Gotenks = 150,000,000,000
- Super Saiyan Gotenks Post Rosat = 218,000,000,000
- Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks = 555,000,000,000
Goku SSJ3 = 203,000,000,000
Vegeta SSJ2 = 50,000,000,000

Kid Buu Saga
SSJ3 Goku = 230,000,000,000
- Losing power SSJ3 = 170,000,000,000
- Spirit Bomb = 20,000,000,000,000
Kid Buu = 250,000,000,000
- Anime = 275,000,000,000
Majin Buu Good = 200,000,000,000
- Anime = 225,000,000,000 (in the anime Good Buu got a ton of hits on Kid Buu and even held his own and Kid Buu was angry)
Vegeta SSJ2 = 50,000,000,000

[CatouttaHell]

Nice list bro. I agree with 50% SSjin Goku >>> SSjin Grade 3 Trunks. Manga-wise it's debatable, Anime-wise (I know you go by that) it's very evident that 50% SSjin Goku >>> SSjin Grade 3 Trunks > Very Suppressed SSjin Goku = Initial Perfect Cell.

I like how you have the Super Saiya-jins, etc very low in the Artificial Humans Arc too. I never understood why the heck people bloat everybody in that arc up so much when it's stated that defeating Freeza is still an incredible feat for that arc. IMO Piccolo should be higher than that, but it's debatable.

What kind of SSjin multiplier are you using BTW? The SSjin and Base numbers don't seem to correlate...

I like how you have Chibi Trunks and Goten rivaling Gohan. I also believe that. Base Chibi Trunks should be > #18 though IMO. The clownsuit he and Goten were wearing was such a problem that he said they were at a disadvantage while wearing it even after going SSjin.

[Kirby456]

Thanks Catoutta!.

Well for SSJ Multipliers i feel Toriyama as stated in a interview felt X 50 was to high and hed like to lower it to X10. The reason i feel was to show how powerfull the Base Saiyans were just in base and how they rivaled Piccolo. So i think it went down to 5-10 with MSSJ/FPSSJ. I also dont really believe in specific boosts for Super Saiyan like its kinda random more like Toriyama just decided to make the numbers random. Ill come p with a X system though later. With Goten and Trunks the reason there close to Gohan yet under him a ton in base is due to them not mastering Super Saiyan so there boosts are higher like X20-30 unlike Gohan. I also think Toriyama made it random in the buu arc. I might lower the Kids before the Rosat then after raise them by 2-3 and in base higher.

Oh as of Piccolo i dont like to put him that much higher then Gohan i mean Gohans a half Saiyan and was sparring evenly with him so i dont like to put Piccolo X2-10 times his strength. Plus i like to believe Frieza > 19 & 20 with energy and without.

Thanks again man I'm going to do dragon ball to.

[CatouttaHell]

Oh, I see. I can definitely see the logic behind a 10x boost, considering Toriyama himself mentioned it. The main problem is, I think, that everybody supposedly gets the same boost going by only guidebooks. That's just silly considering the Base Gohan >=< Piccolo and the Base Trunks >= #18 implications.

I currently just have Base Trunks 2x #18 and Piccolo a bit above Base Gohan. It's a huge stretch but this stuff just doesn't work without either stretching or using different boosts. I can totally see why a large part of the fanbase just plain ignores implications like Base Saiya-jins >= Piccolo.

People rag on GT for how confusing it is but the Boo Arc is just as bad half the time. One second they have Kaioshin being terrified of Yakon, the next they have Kaioshin out-performing SSjin 2 Gohan and Dabura.

I agree Piccolo > Base Gohan makes the most sense. Just because Gohan thought he could win doesn't mean he's > Piccolo. Thinking he can win just means there's nobody at the Tenkaichi Budoukai who he thinks can slap him out of the ring without even trying IMO.

Good luck with your Dragon Ball levels. Those are the hardest to do of any part of the series due to Toriyama's ridiculous number limitations. :/

[Kirby456]

Thanks man!.

Well currently I'm under the impression Manga wise Base Vegeta >>>> Buu Saga Piccolo >= Piccolo Cell Games >= Base Gohan Buu Saga >= Ascended Vegeta I think thats what Toriyama decided in the manga. The Base Saiyans would rival Piccolo to show how amazinly powerfull they were in base lol. The Buu arc is confusing to say the least .

The whole Kaioshin situation it just retarted Piccolo states hes weaker then Kaioshin so does the Daizenshuu then Kaioshin says he forfitted out of respect. Then Kaioshins scared of Yakon and Pui Pui but then he puts up a decent fight against Fat Buu?. I think both sides are plausible.

[Fox666]

Well for SSJ Multipliers i feel Toriyama as stated in a interview felt X 50 was to high and hed like to lower it to X10.

He never said such a thing.

In the interview he simply said it was estabilished that the Super Saiyan multiplies the power by 50, however his feeling was that it increased Goku power by 10. Keep in mind that 10 times is sort of a standard multiplier (Kaio-ken, Oozaru, etc).

Besides that interview is meant to be about the battle with Freeza. And it's not like the multiplier of 50 is not a number taken from nowhere, it's based on the fact that Goku used the Kaio-ken x20 against Freeza before.

The only fact estabilished by that interview is that the Super Saiyan multiply the power by 50, and this comes from Toriyama's mouth (for those who still thinks that the battle powers listed in the Daizenshuu are made up by some random worker).

[Kirby456]

Are you sure?. You could be right not doubting you. But I'm pretty sure i saw a Toriyama interview in which he stated X50 was to high. Ill search for it. The problem with X50 is its implied the Base Saiyans rival Piccolo in strength and Vegeta and Goku in base are stronger then him in the manga. Ether way both sides are plausible since there were no power levels after Frieza.

[CatouttaHell]

Multipliers
Super Saiya-jin Forms
~ SSjin 3 - 4x SSjin 2 (Official SEG multiplier)
~ Enraged (Gohan) - 2x SSjin 2
~ SSjin 2 - 2x SSjin (Official SEG multiplier)
~ Grade 3 - 3x SSjin
~ Grade 2 - 1.5x SSjin
~ SSjin/FP SSjin - 50x base (Official multiplier)
~ SSjin (Anime) - 3x base

NOTE: All early Dragon Ball levels are going by a physical strength system, not a Ki/Battle Power system. Considering how little knowledge of Ki most characters back then had and how little they relied in it (Chibi Goku vs. Jackie Chun, 'nuff said) I believe it is an inaccurate measure of powers for this portion of the story. And, again, physical strength is NOT Ki. My numbers do not mean Roshi > Raditz. For comparisons' sakes, Mr. Satan's physical strength value would be 15.

Son Goku Arc

Son Goku
~ Base - 100
~ Hungry - 60
~ Without Tail - 80

Yamucha - 85

Buruma - 4

Bear Bandit - 25

Muten Roshi
~ Buff - 1,200
~ Base - 400

Gyumao - 500

Emperor Pilaf - 4
Mai - 9
Shuu - 5

Giant Fish - 15

21st Tenkaichi Budoukai Arc

Son Goku -
~ Initial - 300
~ With Tail - 380
~ Ozaru - 3,800

Jackie Chun
~ Buff - 1,200
~ Base - 400

Namu - 320

Giran - 280

Kuririn
~ Initial - 75
~ Post-Training - 225

Yamucha - 130

• Defeated by Roshi when he merely swung his arm in his general direction.

Bacterium - 80

Lanfang - 30

Red Ribbon Army Arc

Son Goku
~ Initial - 380
~ Against Blue - 420
~ Post-Training - 1,200

Kuririn - 240

Colonel Silver
~ Manga - 20
~ Anime - 100

Sergeant Metallic - 250

• His insane durability and constant catching Goku off guard makes him seem tougher than he actually is.

Master Sergeant Murasaki - 280

Ha-chan - 750

Buyon - 400

General White - 20

General Blue - 180

Bora - 330

Tao Pai Pai - 800

Karin-sama - 2,200

Adjunct Black
~ Physical Strength - 200
~ Giant Robot - 360

Uranai Baba Arc

Son Goku - 1,000

• Stated by Gohan himself to be stronger.

Kuririn - 240

Yamucha - 140

Dracula Man - 100

• Uranai Baba's warriors were stated to each be stronger than the last one.

Suke-san - 110

Mummy-kun - 400

Akkuman - 780

Son Gohan - 950

22nd Tenkaichi Budoukai Arc

Son Goku
~ Battle Level - 2,000
~ Match Level - 1,100

Tenshinhan
~ Full Power - 1,900
~ Against Roshi - 1,600
~ Against Roshi, Initial - 1,300
~ Against Yamucha, Initial - 1,000

Muten Roshi
~ Initial - 1,300
~ Buffed Up - 1,500

Tsuru-sennin - 1,400

• Tenshinhan didn't think anybody had surpassed his master until Muten Roshi bulked up against him.

Kuririn - 1,100

Yamucha - 1,000

• He was worried that Goku had improved in the past 3 years. Which definitely puts him on par with that Goku at maximum

Chaozu - 800

Panputto - 500

Chapa-o - 600

Otoko-Okami - 100

Piccolo Daimao Arc

Son Goku
~ Initial (Ki) - 55
~ Initial (Physical Strength) - 2,000
~ Post-Choshinsui Initial - 110
~ Full Power - 185

Piccolo Daimao
~ Old, Initial - 50
~ Old Powered Up - 85
~ Young Initial - 85
~ Young, Full Power - 180

• As far as I'm concerned, returning him to youth definitely increased his physical strength greatly but didn't change his Ki in the least.

Drum - 90

Giran
~ Physical Strength - 1,400
~ Ki - 15

Tenshinhan
~ Initial (Ki) - 60
~ Initial (Physical Strength) - 1,900

Giant King Castle Guard
~ Physical Strength - 300
~ Ki - 10

Cymbal - 15

Muten Roshi
~ Physical Strength - 1,500
~ Ki - 52
~ Unseen Buff Form - 104

Tambourine - 42

Yajirobe
~ Physical Strength - 1,500

Mr. Popo - 320

God - 420

23rd Tenkaichi Budoukai Arc

Son Goku
~ Weighted - 200
~ Unweighted - 300
~ Against Piccolo - 400
~ Full Power - 740

Ma Junior
~ Initial - 200
~ Powered Up - 400
~ Full Power - 726

Tenshinhan - 200

Kuririn - 165

Yamucha - 142

Muten Roshi - 139

Tsuru-sennin - 150

Shen/God - 350

Cyborg Tao Pai Pai - 150

Chichi - 15

Saiya-jin Arc

Arrival of Raditz

Son Goku
~ Weighted - 334
~ Unweighted - 416
~ True Power - 926

Piccolo
~ Weighted - 322
~ Unweighted - 408
~ True Power - 908
~ Makankosappo - 1,330

• Both of them suppress their power and amplify it, as per the principles of Mr. Popo (and apparently Piccolo as well.) There's no way the Kamehameha is a 2.2x multiplier.

Raditz
~ Initial - 1,500
~ Yuuki Lost - 1,100

Son Gohan
~ Initial - 1
~ Furious - 710
~ In a Frenzy - 1,307

Farmer - 5

Tenshinhan - 250

Kuririn - 206

Yamucha - 177

Chaozu - 162

Muten Roshi - 139

Battle Against Nappa and Vegeta

Son Goku
~ Suppressed - 5,000
~ Full Power - 8,000
~ Kaio-ken - 12,000
~ Kaio-ken x2 - 16,000
~ Kaio-ken x3 - 24,000
~ Kaio-ken x3 Kamehameha - 24,000
~ Kaio-ken x4 - 32,000

• Kaio-ken and Kaio-ken x2 are listed as two different things in the Daizenshuu

Tenshinhan
~ Kikoho - 3,300
~ Beaten Up - 1,100
~ Base - 1,830

Kuririn - 1,770

Yamucha - 1,480

Chaozu - 970

Yajirobe - 610

Piccolo
~ Suppressed - 1,200
~ True Power - 2,400
~ Maximum Ki Output - 3,500

Son Gohan
~ Base - 981
~ Enraged - 1,400
~ Masenko - 2,800

Saibaimen - 1,200

Nappa
~ Initial - 3,100
~ Full Power - 4,000

Vegeta
~ Initial - 15,000
~ Powered Up - 18,000
~ Gyarikku-Hou - 24,000

Freeza Arc

Namekusei Arc

Son Goku
~ Suppressed - 5,000
~ Against Ginyu - 60,000
~ Estimated True Power - 85,000
~ True Power - 90,000
~ Kaio-ken x2 - 180,000

Vegeta
~ Post-Zenkai - 24,000
~ Post-Zenkai - 30,000
~ Post-Zenkai - 52,000
~ Post-Nap - 250,000

Kuririn
~ Initial - 1,770
~ Post-Power Up - 16,000

Son Gohan
~ Initial - 1,500
~ Post-Power Up - 18,000

Freeza
~ Suppressed - 200,000
~ Full Power - 530,000

Nail
~ Suppressed - 3,000
~ Full Power - 42,000

Dodoria - 22,000

Zarbon
~ Normal Form - 23,000
~ True Form - 30,000

Kiwi - 18,000

Namekseijin Warriors - 3,000

Appule - 1,000

Captain Ginyu
~ Against Goku - 60,000
~ Full Power - 120,000

Ginyu-Goku
~ Theoretical True Power - 90,000
~ Loss of Yuuki - 23,000

Jizu - 40,000
Baata - 40,000
Rikumu - 40,000
Gurudo - 5,000

Battle Against Freeza

Son Goku
~ SSjin - 150,000,000
~ Genki-Dama - 66,000,000
~ Kaio-ken x20 - 60,000,000
~ Kaio-ken x10 - 30,000,000
~ Base - 3,000,000

Freeza
~ First Form, Suppressed - 200,000
~ First Form, Full Power - 530,000
~ Second Form, Initial - 1,000,001
~ Second Form FP - 1,300,000
~ Third Form - 2,400,000
~ True Form - 3,750,000
~ 50% - 60,000,000
~ 100% - 120,000,000
~ Fatigued - 100,000,000

Piccolo
~ Initial - 240,000
~ Post-Fusion - 1,650,000
~ Unweighted - 1,700,000

Vegeta
~ Initial - 250,000
~ Post-Zenkai - 2,400,000

Kuririn - 75,000

Son Gohan
~ Initial - 200,000
~ Infuriated - 1,000,000
~ Post-Zenkai - 300,000
~ Infuriated - 1,500,000
~ Masenko - 2,000,000

Cell Arc

Arrival of Trunks

Son Goku
~ SSjin - 160,000,000
~ Base - 3,200,000

Trunks
~ SSjin - 150,000,000
~ Base - 3,000,000
~ Suppressed - 5

Mecha-Freeza
~ Suppressed - 84,000,000
~ Unseen Full Power - 150,000,000

King Cold
~ Suppressed - 90,000,000
~ Unseen Full Power - 148,000,000

• Stated in the Daizenshuu to be slightly inferior to Freeza, but not stated which Freeza, so I just assume Mecha-Freeza.

Vegeta - 2,800,000

Piccolo - 7,500,000

Son Gohan - 500,000

Tenshinhan - 72,000
Kuririn - 90,000
Yamucha - 50,000
Chaozu - 30,000

Artificial Humans Arc

Son Goku
~ SSjin - 235,000,000
~ SSjin (Sick) - 170,000,000
~ Base - 4,700,000
~ Base (Sick) - 3,400,000

Trunks
~ SSjin - 180,000,000
~ Base - 3,600,000

Dr. Gero
~ Initial - 100,000,000
~ Post-Absorptions - 130,000,000

#19
~ Initial - 80,000,000
~ Post-Absorptions - 150,000,000

Vegeta
~ SSjin - 240,000,000
~ Base - 4,800,000

Piccolo - 190,000,000

Son Gohan - 3,000,000

Tenshinhan - 144,000
Kuririn - 180,000
Yamucha - 100,000
Chaozu - 60,000

#18 - 390,000,000
#17 - 400,000,000
#16 - 530,000,000

• #17 is equal to Kamiccolo, who beat the crap out of Initial Imperfect Cell, who SSjin Goku said he can't beat. #18 tanking a punch from Vegeta ahile smiling also suggests a gargantuan gap.

Cell Arrives

Cell
~ Initial Imperfect - 290,000,000
~ Post-Absorptions - 570,000,000
~ Second Form Initial - 1,100,000,000
~ Second Form Full Power - 2,000,000,000
~ Kanzentai Initial - 5,500,000,000

Tenshinhan - 144,000

Vegeta
~ Grade 2 - 3,300,000,000
~ SSjin - 2,200,000,000
~ Base - 44,000,000

Trunks
~ Grade 3 - 6,300,000,000
~ Grade 2 - 3,150,000,000
~ SSjin - 2,100,000,000
~ Base - 42,000,000

Piccolo
~ Fused - 400,000,000
~ Fatigued - 290,000,000

Cell Games

Kanzentai Cell
~ Initial Suppressed - 13,000,000,000
~ Suppressed - 36,000,000,000
~ Full Power - 55,000,000,000
~ Super Perfect - 80,000,000,000

Son Goku
~ SSjin - 28,000,000,000
~ 50% SSjin - 14,000,000,000
~ Talking to Cell - 5,500,000,000
~ Base - 600,000,000

• 50% SSjin Goku's power made everybody piss their pants even though it came after SSjin Grade 3 Trunks' power. Nobody even knew what form he was powering up in, and nobody besides Vegeta and Trunks even know how problematic Trunks' transformation was. Nobody was surprised that this Goku was even with Cell at the Cell Games because he had already told them before that Cell was above him, so they were expecting this.

Son Gohan
~ Enraged - 140,000,000,000
~ SSjin 2 - 70,000,000,000
~ SSjin - 35,000,000,000
~ Base - 700,000,000

• Gohan stated he had lost half of his power after he was no longer enraged.

Vegeta
~ SSjin - 18,000,000,000
~ Base - 360,000,000

Trunks
~ SSjin - 17,000,000,000
~ Base - 340,000,000

Cell Juniors - 25,000,000,000

• They were toying with everybody.

Piccolo - 950,000,000

Tenshinhan - 144,000
Kuririn - 180,000
Yamucha - 100,000
Chaozu - 60,000

The Future

Trunks
~ SSjin - 18,000,000,000
~ Base - 360,000,000

#18 - 300,000,000
#17 - 320,000,000

Imperfect Cell - 450,000,000

Boo Arc

25th Tenkaichi Budokai

Son Goten
~ SSjin - 35,000,000,000
~ Base - 700,000,000

• Gave Gohan a serious run for his money in the manga and was stated in the Daizenshuu to have power not the least bit inferior to Gohan.

Chibi Trunks
~ SSjin - 37,500,000,000
~ Base - 750,000,000

• The suit he and Goten were wearing caused them massive problems with their movement to the point where Trunks said they were still at a disadvantage while SSjin, and as we saw from Kuririn vs. Nappa, problems with movement can make a big difference even in fights where the slower fighter is 2x stronger.

Mr. Satan - 5
Videl (Pre-Training) - 5
Videl (Post-Training) - 9

#18 - 390,000,000

Spopovich - 7.5
Yamu - 8

Babidi

Son Goku
~ SSjin 2 - 160,000,000,000
~ SSjin - 80,000,000,000
~ Base - 1,600,000,000

Son Gohan
~ SSjin 2 - 95,000,000,000
~ SSjin - 47,500,000,000
~ Base - 950,000,000

• Stated in the Daizenshuu that his power didn't change. He is physically stronger due to his matured body and he got a noticeable improvement in power from sparring with Goten, although obviously not enough for him to surpass his Enraged SSjin 2 power in normal SSjin 2, according to Goku and Vegeta's manga statements.

Vegeta
~ SSjin 2 - 135,000,000,000
~ SSjin - 67,500,000,000
~ Base - 1,350,000,000

Demon Prince Vegeta
~ Final Explosion - 360,000,000,000
~ Shouki Restored - 180,000,000,000
~ SSjin 2 - 150,000,000,000
~ SSjin - 75,000,000,000
~ Base - 1,500,000,000

Piccolo - 1,100,000,000

• Above Base Gohan, but not enough for him to have absolutely no chance at winning. He didn't increase much over the last 7 years due to God's influence, having to teach Dende how to be God, and due to lack of motivation (Gohan was more than enough to protect the Earth, and his long-time rival was dead.)

Babidi - 50,000
Dabura - 110,000,000,000
Yakon - 1,900,000,000
Unseen Second Fighter - 750,000,000
Pui-Pui - 25,000,000

• Dabura was surprised that Babidi was already sending Yakon out, implying there was supposed to be another fighter in his place who could take place of three guys who could all presumably one-shot Pui-Pui. Pui-Pui thought 10x gravity would give him an advantage but he was extremely desperate. Plus Toriyama is very inconsistent with stuff like gravity levels, and Babidi's power-up draws the power of his minions beyond his limits. So nothing say he's anywhere near the level where 10x gravity would still be a big deal.

Kaioshin - 80,000,000,000

• Did not consider himself surpassed until he felt SSjin 2 Goku's burst. Even SSjin 2 Gohan's Resting Ki didn't scare him.

Kibito - 700,000,000

• Stated in the Daizenshuu to be powerful enough to give Base Gohan a good fight.

Rou Kaioshin - 50,000
Kibitoshin - 900,000,000,0000

Tenshinhan - 288,000
Kuririn - 240,000
Yamucha - 150,000
Chaozu - 120,000

• Yamucha is stated in the Daizenshuu to have stopped participating in battles, not to have stopped training.

Majin Boo

Majin Boo (Dai Kaioshin Absorbed) - 400,000,000,000

Son Goku
~ SSjin 3 - 640,000,000,000
~ SSjin 2 - 160,000,000,000
~ SSjin - 80,000,000,000
~ Base - 1,600,000,000

Fusion

Son Goten (Post-RoSaT)
~ SSjin - 50,000,000,000
~ Base - 1,000,000,000

• Has greater potential than Trunks.

Chibi Trunks (Post-RoSaT)
~ SSjin - 50,000,000,000
~ Base - 1,000,000,000

Piccolo - 1,100,000,000

Gotenks
~ SSjin 3 - 1,200,000,000,000
~ SSjin 2 - 300,000,000,000
~ SSjin (Post-RoSaT) - 150,000,000,000
~ Base (Post-RoSaT) - 3,000,000,000
~ SSjin - 105,000,000,000
~ Base - 2,100,000,000

• Stated in the Daizenshuu to have surpassed Vegeta-tachi only after the RoSaT. The Super Exciting Guide states Metamorian is more like addition than multiplication too.

Innocent Boo - 150,000,000,000

Ultimate Gohan - 1,400,000,000,000

Ultimate Gohan (Anime)
~ Initial - 2,100,000,000,000
~ Loss of Yuuki - 1,400,000,000,000

Evil Boo
~ Pure Evil Boo - 250,000,000,000
~ Evil Boo - 1,000,000,000,000
~ Gotenks Absorbed - 2,203,100,000,000
~ Piccolo Absorbed - 1,003,100,000,000
~ Gohan Absorbed - 2,403,100,000,000
~ Chaotic Gohan-Boo (Pure Boo Burst) - 7,200,000,000,000

Tenshinhan - 288,000

Vegetto
~ SSjin 3 - 24,000,000,000,000
~ SSjin 2 - 6,000,000,000,000
~ SSjin - 3,000,000,000,000
~ Base - 60,000,000,000

Vegetto (Anime)
~ SSjin 3 - 57,600,000,000,000
~ SSjin 2 - 14,400,000,000,000
~ SSjin - 7,200,000,000,000
~ Base - 2,400,000,000,000

Pure Boo (South Kaioshin Absorbed)
~ Manga - 1,300,000,000,000
~ Anime - 3,000,000,000,000

Stated in the Daizenshuu to have strengthened Boo, although in the Anime he seems to have weakened him.

South Kaioshin
~ Manga - 400,000,000,000
~ Anime - 4,500,000,000,000

Stated to be the strongest Kaioshin.

Pure Boo
~ Manga - 900,000,000,000
~ Anime - 6,000,000,000,000

Manga-wise I believe he was playing around with Goku just like with everybody else. Goku's statements at the end implies he needs to train and improve greatly to be able to beat Boo one-on-one. Anime-wise he is stated to be above Gohan-Boo and when his suppressed power comes out of Gohan-Boo he overpowers Vegetto.

Dai Kaioshin
~ Manga - 250,000,000,000
~ Anime - 3,600,000,000,000

Son Goku
~ SSjin 3 - 640,000,000,000
~ SSjin 2 - 160,000,000,000
~ SSjin - 80,000,000,000
~ Base - 1,600,000,000

Vegeta
~ SSjin 2 - 180,000,000,000
~ SSjin - 90,000,000,000
~ Base - 1,800,000,000

End of Z

Son Goku
~ SSjin 3 - 960,000,000,000
~ SSjin 2 - 240,000,000,000
~ SSjin - 120,000,000,000
~ Base - 2,400,000,000

• The Daizenshuu states Super Saiya-jin 3 draws a Saiya-jin's hidden power to its limits. Goku implies he and Vegeta can still get stronger in the manga but it's not at insane rates anymore.

Son Gohan - 1,400,000,000,000

Son Goten
~ SSjin - 60,000,000,000
~ Base - 1,200,000,000

Trunks
~ SSjin - 60,000,000,000
~ Base - 1,200,000,000

• Both were stated in the Daizenshuu to not have powered up explosively.

Vegeta
~ SSjin 3 - 960,000,000,000
~ SSjin 2 - 240,000,000,000
~ SSjin - 120,000,000,000
~ Base - 2,400,000,000

Son Pan - 150,000,000,000

• I believe that since she didn't go SSjin neither in Z nor GT that she inherited Gohan's Saikyou no Senshi power-up and thus has abnormal power for any Base Saiya-jin.

Piccolo - 2,200,000,000

• Started training again due to his rival coming back to life, as reflected by his insane power in GT.

Oob - 3,500,000,000

Tenshinhan - 576,000
Kuririn - 320,000
Yamucha - 300,000
Chaozu - 240,000

[Kirby456]

Hey glad yo adopted my theory of Piccolo training since Goku came back to life!.

Are you going to put up Dragon Ball levels soon?.

I think Tien should be > to Krillin through out the whole Cell and Android arcs.

I have a question how did Piccolo drop from 950,000,000 to 600,000,000 Mil close to the end of the Buu Saga?.

besides that really good!. Ill review the rest later.

[Fox666]

Are you sure?. You could be right not doubting you. But I'm pretty sure i saw a Toriyama interview in which he stated X50 was to high. Ill search for it. The problem with X50 is its implied the Base Saiyans rival Piccolo in strength and Vegeta and Goku in base are stronger then him in the manga. Ether way both sides are plausible since there were no power levels after Freeza.

Here you go:



"To be honest, the way I decided upon the Super Saiyan design was for such a... simple reason that it’d make you go "eh?". I only use one assistant (note 3), who has always helped me. My assistant always had to spend a lot of time blacking in Goku's hair (note 4), so the biggest reason was to save time, since if Goku became a Super Saiyan, his hair wouldn't have to be blacked in. What's more, this also had the effect that one could tell with a glance that Goku had gotten stronger, so it was killing two birds with one stone. At the time, it was made out that he was fifty times as strong when he became Super Saiyan, but that's a little extravagant. As far as my feelings as an author go, I think I drew it with the sense of it being a change of about ten times what he had been up until then."

To summarize, Toriyama is saying something like this: "I estabilished it multiply the power by 50, but that's a lot, my feeling when drawing the panels was of something like 10 times"

This interview caused a lot of confusion among fans, especially because it deals with the battle power subject. However it only tells us that the Super Saiyan is in fact a 50 times multiplier, however Toriyama dislike big numbers!

[CatouttaHell]

Yeah, my DB levels are done, although I go by a physical strength system now for most of it because I've given up trying to make it work with the BP scale. I'll edit my previous post with my Pre-Cell levels, including the Dragon Ball ones.

I have Kuririn > Tenshinhan due to Yamucha's statement about Kuririn's power. It's definitely not ultimate proof but it can be argued both ways. Kuririn's power-up on Namek was monstrous after all.

The Piccolo thing was an error left over from my old list. Thanks for telling me; I missed that one.

[Kirby456]

Are you sure?. You could be right not doubting you. But I'm pretty sure i saw a Toriyama interview in which he stated X50 was to high. Ill search for it. The problem with X50 is its implied the Base Saiyans rival Piccolo in strength and Vegeta and Goku in base are stronger then him in the manga. Ether way both sides are plausible since there were no power levels after Freeza.

Here you go:



"To be honest, the way I decided upon the Super Saiyan design was for such a... simple reason that it’d make you go "eh?". I only use one assistant (note 3), who has always helped me. My assistant always had to spend a lot of time blacking in Goku's hair (note 4), so the biggest reason was to save time, since if Goku became a Super Saiyan, his hair wouldn't have to be blacked in. What's more, this also had the effect that one could tell with a glance that Goku had gotten stronger, so it was killing two birds with one stone. At the time, it was made out that he was fifty times as strong when he became Super Saiyan, but that's a little extravagant. As far as my feelings as an author go, I think I drew it with the sense of it being a change of about ten times what he had been up until then."

To summarize, Toriyama is saying something like this: "I estabilished it multiply the power by 50, but that's a lot, my feeling when drawing the panels was of something like 10 times"

Thanks. Well untill the Frieza Saga 50X makes sense after that its debatable.

[Fox666]

Not really. The guides even provided us the multiplier of Super Saiyan 2 and 3, if the Super Saiyan multiplier changed they would have told us.

The case is that after the Freeza saga Toriyama didn't cared anymore about these numbers.

[lash]

You don't think Gohan ever told Goten that he invited Piccolo?

Pre-Training is exactly as strong as Cell Games Gohan, as also said in the Daizenshuu (which makes sense IMO since Ki cannot atrophy,) so that would still mean Goten is a beast.

I personally don't agree with that entry being about Post-RoSaT Goten but it's definitely possible and I can't disprove it anyway. Trunks was also training with Vegeta so I doubt he was at his fullest when he landed that hit on Vegeta either. But to each their own. I personally think Goten and Trunks rival Gohan but that's just my opinion.

Nah. But even if he did, Goten being ok with not using SSJ doesn't automatically mean every normal saiyan > Piccolo. That's just a fallacy waiting to be picked apart.

The Daizenshuu is simply wrong in that regard, contradicting the manga(it even conflicts with its own entry). Considering Vegeta states Gohan was far weaker then he was as a brat in the tournament(Vegeta: “…Hmph…That bastard, he was far, far better when he killed Cell. It’s because he slacked off in his training during peacetime…”) and while Gohan is fighting in his SSJ state against Dabra(I like the idea that Gohan used SSJ2 in that fight off screen). In other words, Gohan is not only weaker due to not gaining power from anger, but generally just weaker.
Vegeta makes it obvious that Ki CAN atrophy stating how Gohan is weaker then he was as a brat due to not training. Vegeta is fully aware that Gohan's Ki rises when he loses his reasoning(even going so far as to state “Our powers are higher than his now…Though I suppose there’s no telling what would happen if he snapped and went into a frenzy… ” , yet still attributes his decrease in Ki due to not training. Daizenshuu 2 states Gohan's weaker due to not training as well. So pre training Gohan is no where near Cell Games Gohan's power.

You aren't being forced to agree. My original point was made based on Vegeta x Goku's battle power = Vegetto's battle power. It's only ignored because people don't like it, not that it is impossible.

[CatouttaHell]

Ki doesn't atrophy, it's not a muscle. The Daizenshuu said Gohan didn't have the same Battle Power as when he fought Cell when it talked about his SSjin 2 form. For his base and SSjin it said his power didn't change. The Daizenshuu even says "Because he couldn't gain power from anger and because he hadn't been training, he doesn't have the same battle power as when he defeated Cell."

That basically means that he was weaker than his Enraged self that defeated Cell due to not being able to gain power from rage and because he only trained for a month with Goten, which was nowhere near enough to get his regular SSjin 2 power to the level he was at when he was Enraged at the Cell Games.

Neither Vegeta, nor Goku, nor anybody else actually said Gohan got weaker. It's only said that he was stronger, and the fact that he can gain his power, if not more, back if he becomes enraged like he was back then is alluded to multiple times. Considering this, Gohan being stronger back then doesn't mean he's weaker. Otherwise that would mean Gohan got weaker from the time he was on Earth to the time he arrived on Namek because he hit 2,800 on Earth and was at 1,500 on Earth.

Nobody in the series, who relies on Ki, has ever gotten weaker from not training. Freeza sits around doing absolutely nothing all day and never got the least bit weaker. Vegeta and Nappa spent a year hibernating and didn't weaken at all. Guys like Kaioshin and King Cold also presumably never train yet don't weaken. Muscles atrophy, Ki doesn't.

[p123]

Gohan's ki was noted to have decreased due to him not training. So this ki not atrophying stuff regarding Gohan is false. For other characters, it does appear to be the case though. Guys like Freeza and Cold likely don't have to do anything to keep their power.

The only way to have any idea of how any boosts worked past Freeza would have to require the author keeping a calculator , a power level list, and a sign proclaiming " I am a dweeb. " So take all suggestions with a grain of salt.

[lash]

Ki doesn't atrophy, it's not a muscle. The Daizenshuu said Gohan didn't have the same Battle Power as when he fought Cell when it talked about his SSjin 2 form. For his base and SSjin it said his power didn't change. The Daizenshuu even says "Because he couldn't gain power from anger and because he hadn't been training, he doesn't have the same battle power as when he defeated Cell."

You pretty much just ended your own argument.

p123 seems to get it. Gohan's Ki was weaker not only because he couldn't gain power from anger, but ALSO because he hadn't been training. This is directly made evident by Vegeta in the manga(Vegeta: “…Hmph…That bastard, he was far, far better when he killed Cell. It’s because he slacked off in his training during peacetime…”) and that same Daizenshuu entry states it too.

Neither Vegeta, nor Goku, nor anybody else actually said Gohan got weaker. It's only said that he was stronger, and the fact that he can gain his power, if not more, back if he becomes enraged like he was back then is alluded to multiple times.

It doesn't need to be downright stated. Gohan isn't as strong as he was 7 years ago. Therefore the only other reasonable conclusion to make is that he is weaker, right? Especially knowing that Gohan can't gain power from anger, AND hasn't been training.

Vegeta: “Hmph…Even so, he’s not an opponent [he? we?] can’t win against. [Gohan]’s so pathetic…So much so that he was stronger as a brat…
Goku: “He really did slack off!”

Considering this, Gohan being stronger back then doesn't mean he's weaker. Otherwise that would mean Gohan got weaker from the time he was on Earth to the time he arrived on Namek because he hit 2,800 on Earth and was at 1,500 on Earth.

That has nothing to do with this. 1 month is absolutely irrelevant compared to 7 years. Furthermore, Gohan's 2,800 was risen by anger and a Masenko...nothing says his ~1,500 burst was even his full power. It's simply not a fair comparison. To wrap it up, Gohan trained on his way to Namek anyway, so this argument doesn't even hold.

Nobody in the series, who relies on Ki, has ever gotten weaker from not training. Freeza sits around doing absolutely nothing all day and never got the least bit weaker. Vegeta and Nappa spent a year hibernating and didn't weaken at all. Guys like Kaioshin and King Cold also presumably never train yet don't weaken. Muscles atrophy, Ki doesn't.

Prove it. How do you know? Furthermore how do you know he doesn't exercise every once in awhile in his suppression? How do you know Vegeta and Nappa didn't get a bit weaker? You shouldn't make assumptions like that without real backup; how do you know Cold and Kaioshin don't?
Again, prove it. Gohan completely shuts that claim down. He isn't as strong as he once was because he can't gain power from anger, AND because he hasn't been training. It couldn't be more clearer...at least to me.

[Kaboom]

I was getting a bit puzzled on how "he used to be stronger, but he didn't get weaker" makes any sense. I'm not the only one who sees the inherent clash in logic there, right? "He used to be stronger" and "he's now weaker" mean the same thing.

[Rocketman]

I was getting a bit puzzled on how "he used to be stronger, but he didn't get weaker" makes any sense. I'm not the only one who sees the inherent clash in logic there, right? "He used to be stronger" and "he's now weaker" mean the same thing.

It's Magical Adventures in Power Level Land, where "used to be stronger, but didn't get weaker" makes sense, "AxB=C" isn't literal, and Broly constantly gains strength!