Unpopular DB opinions

[ABED]

Is it inherently better that he be taken seriously?

The only thing that concerns me is the quality of the jokes, not jokes per se.

[SaiyanGod117]

God ki,

Was introduced in Z, Super barely expanded on it.

gods of destruction

Introduced in Z with barely any expansion thus far, the most we got in Super is just the chance to see all of them and few of their homes.

, multiverses,

It's a nice concept.

Angels,

Barely know anything about him other than exempt from erasure of their universe and the Grand Priest is their papa.

Omni-Kings,

We know nothing about them except they can erase stuff and are the supreme beings of the DB Universe.

Ultra Instinct

Introduced in Z and all it amounts to is automatic self movement and precog, it really needs more in-depth explanation as well as quantifiable showings to gauge how useful and powerful it is.

[ABED]

This is DB. You get about as much explanation of this stuff as anything we did before.

Introduced in Z and all it amounts to is automatic self movement and precog, it really needs more in-depth explanation as well as quantifiable showings to gauge how useful and powerful it is.

Super Saiyan wasn't explained. It was just shown to be a power up as a result of Goku's rage. We don't need more.

Honestly, from the sound of what you're saying, we got about as much world building as we should. Much more would be superflous exposition.

[Majin Buu]

This adds to the notion that I really dont understand the Whole "X Character" needs to save the day for once or we need a new generation of heroes. Dragon Ball isnt a crossover story of different characters from different franchises coming together to test each other in martial arts and save the day while doing it. This isnt The Avengers or Justice League. Vegeta doesnt have his own series that he's coming from when he first met Goku, same goes for Piccolo, Krillin, Tien, Trunks, Gohan etc. Dragon Ball is about Son Goku and his journey of constant growth as a fighter and how his quirky personality clashes with and attracts different people of all creeds, cultures and races within its OWN Story.

Agreed. Dragon Ball was never an ensemble story. Goku has always been the central character from day 1.

This is why the whole "Goku Time" complaint about GT doesn't hold much water for me (that, and because GT is just as much "The Pan Show" as it is "Goku Time").

[SaiyanGod117]

This is DB. You get about as much explanation of this stuff as anything we did before.

Introduced in Z and all it amounts to is automatic self movement and precog, it really needs more in-depth explanation as well as quantifiable showings to gauge how useful and powerful it is.

Super Saiyan wasn't explained. It was just shown to be a power up as a result of Goku's rage. We don't need more.

Honestly, from the sound of what you're saying, we got about as much world building as we should. Much more would be superflous exposition.

We got barely any outside of a couple sentences, to say any more than that would be superfluous exposition wouldn't even register in a dictionary. Ironically enough, we actually didn't get any new exposition regarding Ultra Instinct except for metaphorical dialogue, much less anything to differentiate it from a standard transformation.

[ABED]

This is DB. You get about as much explanation of this stuff as anything we did before.

Introduced in Z and all it amounts to is automatic self movement and precog, it really needs more in-depth explanation as well as quantifiable showings to gauge how useful and powerful it is.

Super Saiyan wasn't explained. It was just shown to be a power up as a result of Goku's rage. We don't need more.

Honestly, from the sound of what you're saying, we got about as much world building as we should. Much more would be superflous exposition.

We got barely any outside of a couple sentences, to say any more than that would be superfluous exposition wouldn't even register in a dictionary. Ironically enough, we actually didn't get any new exposition regarding Ultra Instinct except for metaphorical dialogue, much less anything to differentiate it from a standard transformation.

You don't need more than that. What we know about Ultra Instinct is that it's the ability to attack and defend without thinking, just acting and reacting on instinct. It's an expert techinque that even the gods have difficulty utilizing. What more do you want?

[SaiyanGod117]

I'm not talking about just Ultra Instinct, I'm talking about almost every aspect of Lore in Dragon Ball Super.

[ABED]

I'm not talking about just Ultra Instinct, I'm talking about almost every aspect of Lore in Dragon Ball Super.

What specifically are you wanting from it other than more exposition? Compare it to the lore we got in the original manga. Lore is quite honestly, mostly boring beyond what's needed for stories to function.

I don't know how to gage it on this forum but perhaps that statement is an unpopular opinion - lore as a concept is mostly boring.

[goku the krump dancer]

Is it inherently better that he be taken seriously?

The only thing that concerns me is the quality of the jokes, not jokes per se.

Thats the thing, the quality of the jokes. i dont mind that he has a running gag here and there, majority of the characters do. But when the writers are coming up with scenarios where the cast covertly borderline bully the poor guy for no reason, thats where the poor taste comes from to me. Dead Pose and Yamcha sux just arent funny to me, I didnt burst into laughter when I first saw the Saibamen kill him, and while I wasnt exactly "Boohooing" either I dont see how anyone could have found it remotely humorous but different strokes for different folks, I just dont think its funny.

[SaiyanGod117]

What specifically are you wanting from it other than more exposition? Compare it to the lore we got in the original manga. Lore is quite honestly, mostly boring beyond what's needed for stories to function.

The DB manga was an already flawed piece of work, coupled with a mangka who is known for dilly-dallying and just barely going beyond surface level for an idea tagged on. For those two reasons alone, using that as a measuring stick to say lore wasn't really need as well as your own personal distaste of it is dubious. Especially, considering the best bits of the manga are the ones with more a emphasis and utilization of the lore.

I would just like to see more exploration of the lore, we are told of all these things in DB or DBS but we never see them-i.e, Twin Universes, Makaioshin, Yamoshi, backstory of the G.O.D.S, etc.

I don't know how to gage it on this forum but perhaps that statement is an unpopular opinion - lore as a concept is mostly boring.

Well DBS is prime example of lore being boring when it isn't utilized, as it's bigger than a ocean but shallower than a puddle.

[Waluigiman]

Dead Yamcha was never funny and for the life of me I will never understand how it grew to be so popular that the idea of Yamcha being a joke has transitioned into official material. Being written to be embarrassed by the new threat is completely different from being a "joke Character" or Comic Relief, which Yamcha was never meant to be.

Totally agree. This is the reason why baseball episode in DBS was so trash.
It could be funny filler if it wasn't for that stupid Yamcha "joke" that ruined everything.

I also agree. It wasn’t funny before and it’s not funny 13 years later.

Absolutely, I am glad more people think this. That dead pose never made me chuckle even before Yamcha became my favorite character. In fact, Recoome's defeated pose is much more ridiculous yet for some reason that is not as popular.

I wonder if they will ever un-flanderize Yamcha and other characters.

[Noah]

Never liked or think it was funny any jokes made with Yamcha and Krillin because they're weak/die very often in the series. I think these characters especially Yamcha could have been more useful on the course of the series or on the actual series.

[ABED]

What specifically are you wanting from it other than more exposition? Compare it to the lore we got in the original manga. Lore is quite honestly, mostly boring beyond what's needed for stories to function.

The DB manga was an already flawed piece of work, coupled with a mangka who is known for dilly-dallying and just barely going beyond surface level for an idea tagged on. For those two reasons alone, using that as a measuring stick to say lore wasn't really need as well as your own personal distaste of it is dubious. Especially, considering the best bits of the manga are the ones with more a emphasis and utilization of the lore.

I would just like to see more exploration of the lore, we are told of all these things in DB or DBS but we never see them-i.e, Twin Universes, Makaioshin, Yamoshi, backstory of the G.O.D.S, etc.

I don't know how to gage it on this forum but perhaps that statement is an unpopular opinion - lore as a concept is mostly boring.

Well DBS is prime example of lore being boring when it isn't utilized, as it's bigger than a ocean but shallower than a puddle.

I find the idea that it needs more explanation dubious. The story lands without having to know more than we do. Your reply is full of vague statements like "barely going beyond surface level". It doesn't have to go any deeper into the god hierarchy because it isn't about them. As long as we know what they do, all that truly matters is characterization and story.

Backstory has its place but it has a huge chance of being very uninteresting. The reason I don't like lore is because when there's an overemphasis placed on it, I find myself checking out of the story because it's just explaining things including questions I never asked and don't care about. "The most important things to remember about backstory are that (a) everyone has a history and (b) most of it isn’t very interesting" - Stephen King. I find that quote to be very true. I like some backstory, but not so much it stops the story in it's tracks.

What are the best bits of the manga according to you?

[goku the krump dancer]

Backstory has its place but it has a huge chance of being very uninteresting. The reason I don't like lore is because when there's an overemphasis placed on it, I find myself checking out of the story because it's just explaining things including questions I never asked and don't care about. "The most important things to remember about backstory are that (a) everyone has a history and (b) most of it isn’t very interesting" - Stephen King. I find that quote to be very true. I like some backstory, but not so much it stops the story in it's tracks.

I agree, which is why I have zero interest in Yamoshi, we know all we need to know from that one tidbit. He was the first Super Saiyan God, killed some dudes, got slaughtered and faded into obscurity, what more needs to be said? How could him hypothetically coming back help Goku in anyway? For what its worth Goku has probably already mastered God Ki better than anything Yamoshi could have managed anyway.

[Kataphrut]

God ki,

Was introduced in Z, Super barely expanded on it.

gods of destruction

Introduced in Z with barely any expansion thus far, the most we got in Super is just the chance to see all of them and few of their homes.

, multiverses,

It's a nice concept.

Angels,

Barely know anything about him other than exempt from erasure of their universe and the Grand Priest is their papa.

Omni-Kings,

We know nothing about them except they can erase stuff and are the supreme beings of the DB Universe.

Ultra Instinct

Introduced in Z and all it amounts to is automatic self movement and precog, it really needs more in-depth explanation as well as quantifiable showings to gauge how useful and powerful it is.

Are you doing the "It still counts as 'Z' if it was Battle of Gods/Resurrection F'" thing? Last time I saw that was when people were trying to deny Super characters would be in FighterZ because it's called "Fighter-Zee" even though Golden Freeza and the Super Saiyan Blues were revealed really early on and Goku Blue had Kaioken. That was over a year ago now and it was hilarious even then.

All of those concepts were introduced in the same era and with the exception of God ki (which I feel like they sort of want us to forget about) it's all been fleshed out as much as it needed to be. I mean, compare what we know of Beerus, Whis and Ultra Instinct now to what we knew in Resurrection F. It's a world of difference.

[Lukmendes]

I was fine with him being the butt of jokes for a while, but it got pretty ridiculous by the Universal Survival arc. Not only did Yamcha get overlooked in favor of the Muten Roshi, but when they were desperately looking for a 10th fighter for Universe 7, you’re telling me that no one even considered Yamcha? I get that Freeza is a lot stronger than him, but you’re really going to tell me that not a single person even thought to ask Yamcha to join during such a dire situation? It was even worse in the manga, where Bulma apparently couldn’t even remember who Yamcha was, despite having dated him for over a decade.

In the manga Bulma was actualy about to mention him before Satan called, it was Vegeta and Beerus who didn't know who she was gonna mention.

Was introduced in Z, Super barely expanded on it.

Introduced in Z, kinda, but we honly ave two lines that kinda point at its direction, Dabura's being the most direct one since he says that Shin's and Kibito's energy can't be used on Boo (Makes no sense anyways, Boo has two Kaioshins within him...), they don't even say their ki is divine, only barely hint at it...

Agreed. Dragon Ball was never an ensemble story. Goku has always been the central character from day 1.

This is why the whole "Goku Time" complaint about GT doesn't hold much water for me (that, and because GT is just as much "The Pan Show" as it is "Goku Time").

Well the GT thing is a problem more so because Goku is the only one who really gets the spotlight, other characters, if they aren't Piccolo or Pan are only useful for a power boost or nothing, while in Z, other characters at least do something to advance the plot, even if they don't defeat anyone, after all, what is Namek arc without Krillin and Gohan?

Are you doing the "It still counts as 'Z' if it was Battle of Gods/Resurrection F'" thing? Last time I saw that was when people were trying to deny Super characters would be in FighterZ because it's called "Fighter-Zee" even though Golden Freeza and the Super Saiyan Blues were revealed really early on and Goku Blue had Kaioken. That was over a year ago now and it was hilarious even then.

All of those concepts were introduced in the same era and with the exception of God ki (which I feel like they sort of want us to forget about) it's all been fleshed out as much as it needed to be. I mean, compare what we know of Beerus, Whis and Ultra Instinct now to what we knew in Resurrection F. It's a world of difference.

At the very least, god ki was kinda alluled to back in Boo saga, so "introduced in Z" counts for it somewhat.

[Majin Buu]

Well the GT thing is a problem more so because Goku is the only one who really gets the spotlight, other characters, if they aren't Piccolo or Pan are only useful for a power boost or nothing, while in Z, other characters at least do something to advance the plot, even if they don't defeat anyone, after all, what is Namek arc without Krillin and Gohan?

Again, Goku is the central character, of course he's going to get the spotlight most of the time.

That being said, it's an oversimplification to say that no other characters get the spotlight. You already mentioned Piccolo, but Vegeta starts getting a fair amount of screen time as the show goes on, eventually getting a whole episode dedicated to him; and Pan almost feels like a secondary protagonist with as much screen time as she gets, especially in those pre-Baby episodes. In fact, in those episodes it often feels like she's the focus when there's no fighting happening. Not to mention Trunks and Gill's entire ruse on M2, Uub's vital assist in the final battle with Baby, then later that one tournament episode where he fights Satan (which by the way, that episode focused on Uub, Pan, and Satan just as much as it did Goku), and the Kaioshin providing another vital assist in giving Goku his tail back and saving him from Baby's final attack in the first place. Hell, in the episode where Baby arrives on Earth it feels like freaking Goten becomes the focus for a bit. Contrary to popular belief, characters other than Goku do get to do stuff in GT.

[Lukmendes]

Again, Goku is the central character, of course he's going to get the spotlight most of the time.

That being said, it's an oversimplification to say that no other characters get the spotlight. You already mentioned Piccolo, but Vegeta starts getting a fair amount of screen time as the show goes on, eventually getting a whole episode dedicated to him; and Pan almost feels like a secondary protagonist with as much screen time as she gets, especially in those pre-Baby episodes. In fact, in those episodes it often feels like she's the focus when there's no fighting happening.

Vegeta's focus stuff ammounts to nothing since he still doesn't do much, even after going SS4, since his only use was to be a fusion partner for Goku, and even that isn't useful since everything Gogeta does is pointless (Vegetto by comparison advanced the plot by being absorved which allowed Goku and Vegeta to save everyone else from Boo, Gogeta just kicks Omega Shenron's ass then the fusion is undone, Omega does briefly loses the dragon balls but then he gets them all back with no real difference, so Gogeta is skippable).

And yeah, Pan is a big focus in episodes, after she helps Goku go SS4 she doesn't do much though, she's a power boost to help him defeat Baby then helps defeat one of the shadow dragons (Which kinda doesn't feel like much since Goku never tried to transform against her), anything else post SS4 she's little more than "That girl who beats up Gill or is in danger".

Not to mention Trunks and Gill's entire ruse on M2, Uub's vital assist in the final battle with Baby, then later that one tournament episode where he fights Satan (which by the way, that episode focused on Uub, Pan, and Satan just as much as it did Goku), and the Kaioshin providing another vital assist in giving Goku his tail back and saving him from Baby's final attack in the first place. Hell, in the episode where Baby arrives on Earth it feels like freaking Goten becomes the focus for a bit. Contrary to popular belief, characters other than Goku do get to do stuff in GT.

Yeah the Trunks and Gill thing in M2 was decent and Uub's assist was cool, Gill also saves Goku's and Pan's life against that first shadow dragon, and Kaioshin also finds that "super holy water" or whatever the name is to free everyone else from Baby's control so they can power up Goku to begin with, so I should've mentioned them too, and most of those happening in Baby's arc is part of the reason why that one is considered the best arc in GT, problem is that after it, most characters either took a backseat or a beating, with 18 of all people doing something besides powering up Goku to help defeat a villain, that combined with the lack of development or screen time or letting them advance the plot like it was done in Z is why GT feels so much more about Goku only than Z, even with the very occasional episode foccused on someone else.

[ABED]

So often what feels like advancing the plot is little more than treading water. Gotenks and Gohan don't advance the story as much as you'd assume in the Buu arc. Vegeta, Gohan, Kuririn, and Piccolo do more than buy time before Goku arrives to fight Freeza.

Trunks is the tech wiz in GT so he serves a critical function in the story. Even though I would prefer Pan not play the damsel so much, she is given plenty of focus and helps out.

[Majin Buu]

Vegeta's focus stuff ammounts to nothing since he still doesn't do much, even after going SS4, since his only use was to be a fusion partner for Goku, and even that isn't useful since everything Gogeta does is pointless (Vegetto by comparison advanced the plot by being absorved which allowed Goku and Vegeta to save everyone else from Boo, Gogeta just kicks Omega Shenron's ass then the fusion is undone, Omega does briefly loses the dragon balls but then he gets them all back with no real difference, so Gogeta is skippable).

It feels like there's some goalpost moving here. Vegeta gets a entire episode to himself, not enough. Vegeta gets his own Super Saiyan 4 form, not enough. Vegeta takes part in holding the line in 2 major battles, not enough. Vegeta takes part in another fusion, not enough. All of this screen time and it just isn't enough. It seems to me that nothing less than Vegeta saving the day would have satisfied you.

And yeah, Pan is a big focus in episodes, after she helps Goku go SS4 she doesn't do much though, she's a power boost to help him defeat Baby then helps defeat one of the shadow dragons (Which kinda doesn't feel like much since Goku never tried to transform against her), anything else post SS4 she's little more than "That girl who beats up Gill or is in danger".

most of those happening in Baby's arc is part of the reason why that one is considered the best arc in GT, problem is that after it, most characters either took a backseat or a beating, with 18 of all people doing something besides powering up Goku to help defeat a villain, that combined with the lack of development or screen time or letting them advance the plot like it was done in Z is why GT feels so much more about Goku only than Z, even with the very occasional episode foccused on someone else.

But when you look at the entirety of the show, from beginning to end, it's not all about Goku, that's my point. It's an oversimplification to say otherwise, and that's what the "Goku Time" complaint is doing. If GT in its entirely was all Goku all the time doing everything, you wouldn't have any focus on Pan, Trunks, Gill, Vegeta, or any other characters PERIOD. There is focus on other characters, just not a whole lot of it. And this goes back to my other point:

Dragon Ball was never an ensemble cast. There was never a mandate that X number of supporting characters need to have X amount of screen time/plot relevance in every story arc. Goku is naturally going to get most of the screen time because, again, he's the freaking main character.

So many American fans complain about the Japanese fanbase liking Goku a lot, but it seems to me that many American fans fundamentally don't get/don't like that Dragon Ball is Goku's story.