Death Battle: Goku vs Superman 2

[The Monkey King]

Superman's blackhole holding feat isn't as impressive as it looks at first glance:

Superman was NOT holding a blackhole in his hand, he was holding a machine that was holding a blackhole the size of a speck of dust:

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/820/n4r3.jpg/

The machine was basically a "bomb" of sorts known as the Mnemon device, the creator being Mnemon who is a malevolent A.I. who downloaded destruction and know loves to cause genocides, which was supposed to crack open and unleash the blackhole to start devouring Earth and grow bigger like any other blackhole does when it consumes matter, and would have been a threat to the Solar System. That's how galactic civilizations were destroyed by Mnemon. Superman wankers like to ignore physics and assume that the blackhole was a solar system buster because of that statement and disregard the fact it was a bomb like device. It wasn't an SS buster at the beginning, it would have been one with time. The machine was starting to crack when Superman got to it, which then he grabbed it and held it to plug up the cracks. However some of the gravity leaked out, and in fact the gravity that leaked was for him extremely strenuous, he said that it was like someone was tearing his hand in two.

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/706/bllh.jpg/

Now to calculate the Black hole and how impressive the feat is:

The Schwarzschild Radius is distance at which the gravitational force of an object is so great that even light cannot escape it. Since most objects aren't super dense, their theoretical SR is well within the boundaries of the object itself, so in order to actually have a black hole, you would need to crush the object down to less than whatever its SR is.

For black holes, the more common term for the SR is the Event Horizon. Technically, event horizon is actually kind of a general term, but most people will know what you're talking about with either (assuming they actually even recognize the term "Schwarzschild Radius," which most people probably won't unless they've actually studied physics).

Anyway, as far as math goes, the equation for the SR is pretty simple: R=2Gm/c^2, where c is the speed of light, G is the universal gravitational constant, m is the mass of the black hole, and R is the Schwarzschild Radius. We're trying to find m, the mass, which would shift the equation to m=(R*c^2)/(2G) Going by the Atom's statement, we have a rough estimate on size, or what R is, "no bigger than a speck of dust." Of course, dust particles can vary in size quite a bit. Let's say that he was thinking of a large, obvious speck of dust that you could easily notice floating around your living room, and say it was 5 mm across. That's pretty big for a bit of dust. Note that the bigger we assume the "speck of dust" to be, the more mass Superman has to deal with.

m= (5e-3m)c^2/(2G); c and G are always the same, so you can look them up. Punch in the numbers and you get m= 3.37e24 kg. The mass of the earth is 5.97e24 kg, so Mnemon could have weighed a bit over half the earth's mass.

Of course, most dust particles are actually going to be smaller than that, so if it was more like a 1 mm dust particle he had in mind, then mass drops to 6.73e23 kg, significantly less than the mass of the earth. And even 1 mm is a decent size for a dust particle; Mnemon could have easily had a mass less than 1/10th the earth.

The calc basically puts Superman's maximum strength at either a little more than half of Earth's mass, to 1/10th of it. And this is assuming he actually held the blackhole itself, as we know he actually didn't.

[pacz360]

Honestly this is a debate that would never end no matter what goku vs superman is one those debates that get ban in a second in any forum that and it brings out the worst of both sides and makes them look childish.

[Sayo-chan]

Again, no. There are multiple appeals to authority. You seem to be asserting there's only one, which is objectively untrue. The syllogism I gave you is fairly common and evoked all the time. You can read more about this here: http://150.162.138.5/portal/sites/defau ... 6-1-PB.pdf Maybe it came off the way because of your phrasing, but it follows the example I gave fairly well (namely because it sounds as though you're dismissing arguments in favor of an authority's opinion, which is a key component to this). Now, if I were in your position, I wouldn't consider the word of either without seeing the evidence.

Beyond that, I neither agree nor disagree with your reasoning.

I looked at the pdf you provided and I was not wrong to rely on the expert I cited as he would pass all six critical questions under "argument from expert opinion" if we're treating this as some legal proceeding. I did consider that there are people with differing views on what FLT might be like, however the person I was discussing things with did not provide anything substantial for me to gleam any information from. I am open to having my mind changed but, provide something with a bit more substance and then we can hash it out with the facts. At no point am I saying they should not question what I say or my source.

I guess I'm not convinced but you can have the last word on this if there is anything more you want to add.

As I said, it may have simply been the way you conducted yourself, which seemed to be that you were dismissing evidence in favor of a supposed authority figure. That's how it appeared, which following the above syllogism, does make an appeal to authority.

[Polyphase Avatron]

how they always say "it's time to end this debate once and for all

That's just a motto. I'm sure they don't legit believe that. Hell Prince of Tennis called itself the "Most popular manga of all time" many times. We know it ain't true. The publisher knew it too.

Don't be so picky

But in many of their bonus videos they do act like they are some kind of conclusive authority.

[Blackstripe]

Thought people might find this debate on Comic Vine rather interesting:

http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles ... 31/?page=1

[Kamiccolo9]

Thought people might find this debate on Comic Vine rather interesting:

http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles ... 31/?page=1

What's interesting is half of the voters saying that they were voting against the one they actually believed would win, because, while both debaters were shit, one was slightly less shit.

[Blackstripe]

Thought people might find this debate on Comic Vine rather interesting:

http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles ... 31/?page=1

What's interesting is half of the voters saying that they were voting against the one they actually believed would win, because, while both debaters were shit, one was slightly less shit.

Heh, that's true.

Though I do like his point that Superman never casually defeated moonbusters, and in his fight against Black Adam in one issue, he made a big deal out of his punch being able to crack the moon.

[Polyphase Avatron]

You can find tons of statements about what an attack or a character can do in comics that don't mesh with each other.

[The Monkey King]

Another OTT feat from DBS

Spoiler:

So we've had:
Beerus travelling at MFTL speeds
Beerus destroying half a planet with a tap of his finger (with another FTL feat)
And now this.

Spoiler:

Punches being felt/shaking the whole universe.

It's looking like DB is getting some Pre-Crisis Supes level feats.

[Saiyan007]

Another OTT feat from DBS

Spoiler:

So we've had:
Beerus travelling at MFTL speeds
Beerus destroying half a planet with a tap of his finger (with another FTL feat)
And now this.

Spoiler:

Punches being felt/shaking the whole universe.

It's looking like DB is getting some Pre-Crisis Supes level feats.

and Beerus isn't at full power in any of those scans

[Bullza]

Makes you wonder how powerful a SSGSS Vegito would be now.

[Blackstripe]

Makes you wonder how powerful a SSGSS Vegito would be now.

If SSGSS Gokuu/Vegeta can destroy the universe, and potara gives them the same relative increase in power that it did in the Buu Saga?

I think SSGSS Vegetto could casually one-shot Sailor Cosmos and trade blows with Kami Tenchi.

SSGSS Rage!Vegetto then goes and punches the Living Tribunal in the face.

[singsing]

Makes you wonder how powerful a SSGSS Vegito would be now.

If SSGSS Gokuu/Vegeta can destroy the universe, and potara gives them the same relative increase in power that it did in the Buu Saga?

I think SSGSS Vegetto could casually one-shot Sailor Cosmos and trade blows with Kami Tenchi.

SSGSS Rage!Vegetto then goes and punches the Living Tribunal in the face.

Doesn't matter how much power you have when reality warping removes that power.

[Polyphase Avatron]

Kind of true. As long as DBZ characters (or any characters, for that matter) still fight physically by exchanging punches and kicks and throwing ki blasts at each other, there are some characters they'll never be able to beat. (Of course you can sort of get around this by using the cop-out of "while it looks like they're simply exchanging physical blows, this is merely how your limited mortal minds perceive it, and they are actually fighting on all levels of reality and dimensions at once with abstract concepts",) but somehow I doubt Toriyama is the kind of writer to go for that kind of thing.

[FortuneSSJ]

The funniest thing about this is the video thumbnail. They had put SSG Goku there in the beginning, but then changed it to SG Goku.

Because like always, a lot of people misunderstood Toriyama 2013 comment about red being the strongest color, and thought he meant SG>SSG. And like any misunderstanding, this spread like fire and some people still called Toriyama a retard that didn't make sense.

Believing in this, screwattack end up changing the thumbnail and put SG Goku in there.
How am i supposted to take this serious?! What a joke.

[Polyphase Avatron]

You're not supposed to take ScrewAttack seriously. If you do, you're doing it wrong.

[Blackstripe]

Kind of true. As long as DBZ characters (or any characters, for that matter) still fight physically by exchanging punches and kicks and throwing ki blasts at each other, there are some characters they'll never be able to beat. (Of course you can sort of get around this by using the cop-out of "while it looks like they're simply exchanging physical blows, this is merely how your limited mortal minds perceive it, and they are actually fighting on all levels of reality and dimensions at once with abstract concepts",) but somehow I doubt Toriyama is the kind of writer to go for that kind of thing.

It depends on the reality warper. People like Scarlet Witch would be dead way before they could do anything. Their speed just isn't on the level.

She's been taken out by bullets, after all.

[Polyphase Avatron]

I'm talking about abstract beings with no physical vulnerabilities.

Although regarding Scarlet Witch, I do vaguely recall that in House of M she was killed by Hawkeye's arrow but she was still able to undo that after she died, somehow... I think that was one of those plot device powers they gave her just for that story, though. (I don't remember much about that whole event TBH, because it was so badly-written).

[singsing]

Kind of true. As long as DBZ characters (or any characters, for that matter) still fight physically by exchanging punches and kicks and throwing ki blasts at each other, there are some characters they'll never be able to beat. (Of course you can sort of get around this by using the cop-out of "while it looks like they're simply exchanging physical blows, this is merely how your limited mortal minds perceive it, and they are actually fighting on all levels of reality and dimensions at once with abstract concepts",) but somehow I doubt Toriyama is the kind of writer to go for that kind of thing.

It depends on the reality warper. People like Scarlet Witch would be dead way before they could do anything. Their speed just isn't on the level.

She's been taken out by bullets, after all.

Living Tribunal/Kami Tenchi wouldn't give a shit about how much strength you have.

[voltlunok]

Kind of true. As long as DBZ characters (or any characters, for that matter) still fight physically by exchanging punches and kicks and throwing ki blasts at each other, there are some characters they'll never be able to beat. (Of course you can sort of get around this by using the cop-out of "while it looks like they're simply exchanging physical blows, this is merely how your limited mortal minds perceive it, and they are actually fighting on all levels of reality and dimensions at once with abstract concepts",) but somehow I doubt Toriyama is the kind of writer to go for that kind of thing.

It depends on the reality warper. People like Scarlet Witch would be dead way before they could do anything. Their speed just isn't on the level.

She's been taken out by bullets, after all.

Living Tribunal/Kami Tenchi wouldn't give a shit about how much strength you have.

As the old saying goes! You can have all the power in the world but it doesn't matter if you can't hit the enemy. _{Not really an old saying but I think it fits here...}