Toriyama's racial/ist character portrayals?

[Vegitofaxx]

True, but that doesn't mean he wasn't influenced by racist images

In the end I think it came down to; "This looks fun and goofy, I'll make the character look like that"

And if a Two year old hears his dad say the N-Word, and repeats it because he thinks it sounds funny, does that make the N Word not racist?

But in the end, Popo wasn't intended to be racist, therefore I don't consider him offensive.

[MCDaveG]

I think that we should have also a censored version for everyone offended, with characters who have thick lips being painted green and it's done.
Because we haven't proven anything, haters gonna hate. My final opinion is that there is no racist portrayal in Dragon Ball and I am out

PS: Mr. Popo is a god damn GENIE!
It's like genie from Aladin being considered racist to people of arabic heritage.

[TripleRach]

I will start out by saying I am not a fan of censorship. Especially in this case, where uncensored Popo aired on US TV for over ten years, so I feel that coloring him blue or reducing his lips only brings more attention to the issue for younger generations.

But despite all the progress that's been made since the Civil Rights movement of the 1960s, the US has definitely not achieved true racial equality yet. And on top of current racial issues, there is still a great deal of bitterness about slavery and the Jim Crow era. Blackface imagery like this is a reference to a time where African Americans were treated as less than human, and it fell out of use and became controversial because people began to realize how demeaning and hurtful it was. So I don't see why it should be such a surprise that people seeing these images in 2015 might still find it offensive. To suggest that it's no different than crazy "soccer moms" complaining about sex or violence seems incredibly insensitive, but I realize not everyone is deeply familiar with these issues.

However, Japan is obviously not the US, and for them the context of blackface imagery is much different. We have no way of knowing exactly what went through Mr. Toriyama's mind when designing characters like Popo. But ideally people should consider the Japanese perspective on this before simply equating it to that of 19th or 20th Century white Americans.

[jcogginsa]

But in the end, Popo wasn't intended to be racist, therefore I don't consider him offensive.

Just because you don't intend something to be racist does not mean it isn't racist. Racism comes from ignorance as much as Hatred

You're... seriously saying that if a 2 year old says a "racist word", without understanding it, then said kid is a racist?

No, i'm saying the WORD is racist. Read what i actually say.

[Metalwario64]

You're... seriously saying that if a 2 year old says a "racist word", without understanding it, then said kid is a racist?

No, i'm saying the WORD is racist. Read what i actually say.

Black people are allowed to use the word (and I'm not questioning that), and in that case it isn't offensive, so why is it offensive when a 2 year old that doesn't know any better says it?

I'm not asking rhetorically, and I'm not trying to be offensive.

[Polyphase Avatron]

You're... seriously saying that if a 2 year old says a "racist word", without understanding it, then said kid is a racist?

No, i'm saying the WORD is racist. Read what i actually say.

Black people are allowed to use the word (and I'm not questioning that), and in that case it isn't offensive, so why is it offensive when a 2 year old that doesn't know any better says it?

I'm not asking rhetorically, and I'm not trying to be offensive.

Because people would expect the kid's parents to have taught them better. Just like if a little kid throws their food or draws on the walls, even if they don't know it's wrong, it's the parents' job to tell them it is.

[Metalwario64]

Well, I'd expect after a kid said such a word, that the parents would (or should) scold him (and if not, I'd definitely question the parents).

My point is that I just think intent goes a long way, and that also goes for Mr. Popo. I can only speak for myself, but I wouldn't be offended by anything a 2 year old said, and It's okay for black people to say. Such as in this case, I don't see why Mr. Popo should be offensive, because he doesn't seem to have had any malicious intent in his design, whereas it's clear why the original blackfaces were offensive, because they were built around degradation.

[jcogginsa]

Well, I'd expect after a kid said such a word, that the parents would (or should) scold him (and if not, I'd definitely question the parents).

My point is that I just think intent goes a long way, and that also goes for Mr. Popo. I can only speak for myself, but I wouldn't be offended by anything a 2 year old said, and It's okay for black people to say. Such as in this case, I don't see why Mr. Popo should be offensive, because he doesn't seem to have had any malicious intent in his design, whereas it's clear why the original blackfaces were offensive, because they were built around degradation.

And it's the consumer's job to make it known when media uses racist stereotypes and imagery

You're... seriously saying that if a 2 year old says a "racist word", without understanding it, then said kid is a racist?

No, i'm saying the WORD is racist. Read what i actually say.

Black people are allowed to use the word (and I'm not questioning that), and in that case it isn't offensive, so why is it offensive when a 2 year old that doesn't know any better says it?

I'm not asking rhetorically, and I'm not trying to be offensive.

Black people shouldn't use the word either.

When a two year old says it, it's a parent's job to teach that child that it's not appropriate to use that word.

Similarly, when a piece of media uses racist imagery, as consumers it is our job to make it known that doing so is not acceptable.

[StrawHatPatriot]

OMG at some of the posts in this thread. Some you guys are being really obtuse - some posts are normal, and others are just almost malicious

Well, all animated african americans are racist man, stop trying!

African Americans shouldn't be animated, like ever, lol!

Ugh, posts like this make my blood boil.

You're making snarky remarks in opposition to others that find something to be an issue, and more importantly, you're horribly misunderstanding them and not even making an effort to understand and instead just making strawman arguments that just make you look naive and unwilling to actually try to understand.

On the right note, this is starting to be really rudiculous and that's what is wrong with people nowadays!
What would be really racist? If Mr. Popo, who is cool and strong character, was dressed in boilersuit, harvesting cotton.
And now, eat me! There is nothing racist in Toriyama's portrayals, only oversensitive pseudohumanist people are making issues where there is none.
I think that policemen shooting african-americans on street for nothing is problem, not races depicted with their facial features with non-offensive traits.

And nobody has trouble with John Stewart from DC Comics? He has lips bigger than Superman's fist. How come?

I don't understand how you can look at those comparisons on page 4-5 and say that those who are put-off by it are "pseudohumanist people" who are "making issues where there is none".

You still haven't actually proven anything. It's a combination of dark skin and red lips applied to a broad spectrum of African-descending people to essentially say "All black people are dark and have huge lips that are meant to be mocked." I'm failing to grasp why this is so difficult for you to understand.

Regardless, I'm done with this discussion. I'd suggest looking up a thing or two about blackface, minstrel shows, and sambos.

Not all of the black characters in Dragon Ball have dark skin, and I don't think their lips are "huge", they look normal to me.

This is over sized

Spoiler:

This is normal looking

Spoiler:

He didn't say all the black characters were like that (I think), he was referring specifically to the Mr Popo.
And I'm not sure if you didn't fully understand what he said, or if you are moving goalposts. It's not just having dark skin, thick lips, etc. It's the way they specifically combine exaggerated versions of them in one piece, then realize that it is present in Mr Popo that makes it look specifically bad.

Again, look up blackface cartoons, see how they look like, what they mean, how they are used, etc.

Sorry if I sounded imposing (to you specifically).

[Sayo-chan]

And if a Two year old hears his dad say the N-Word, and repeats it because he thinks it sounds funny, does that make the N Word not racist?

Let's define racism:

prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior.

If a sentient being, not a sapient being, parrots a word, it has no semantical value. When something has no semantical value, it has no meaning. Some philosophers would contest the notion that words have any meaning at all, however for the sake of convenience, we'll assume they do. If there is no meaning, there is no intent, there is no understanding; there's nothing but a construct of symbols. It's irrational to say there's anything racist about the child parroting the word. It may draw implications concerning the parents, sure, but that's completely different and why your example doesn't work. I find the censorship of any words to be juvenile, seeing that the connotation differs largely on demographics (specifically the US in this case). Whenever someone say they're offended by something, I can't help but be reminded of these two quotes:

It's now very common to hear people say, 'I'm rather offended by that.' As if that gives them certain rights. It's actually nothing more... than a whine. 'I find that offensive.' It has no meaning; it has no purpose; it has no reason to be respected as a phrase. 'I am offended by that.' Well, so fucking what.

Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right.

[MajinShyguy666]

Why did Toriyama choose to make the most exaggerated facial features when it came to drawing black people in his manga. He had big lips, noses and really darkened skin on all the characters. Almost akin to the face you'd see on Darky tooth paste calendar.







Compare:

well, to make a long story short, their was a book in japan called little black sambo, it featured a character that had pitch black skin and big red lips, the book became extremely popular in japan, and the character's appearance has been used into toys, games, anime and in this case, manga, so toriyama was just representing an iconic Japanese character design, a racist one, but still an iconic one. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Story_ ... lack_Sambo

[Attitudefan]

Black people have full lips, dark skin, and broad noses. Do you have a problem with that?

Exactly! Lot's of black people look that way... so is drawing black features racist in itself? Should black people look like white or Asian people with black skin only? By hiding the fact that black people have these features is being a blanket racist.

So having straight blonde hair and a big nose and white skin is not racist (but stereo typically white) yet having an afro, full lips, and a broad flat nose is? Fucking bullshit double standards. I would draw black people how I observe them just as any race/animal/plant. That's art. Deal with it.

And yeah, racism is not how people look, it's how those specific people are portrayed. Mr Popo was one of the strongest, most bad ass fighters on Earth at his introduction, yet because he looks like a cartoon black person it is racist??? WHY? Is black features unwanted by the black community? Do black people hate their features? I know I'm generalizing, but cartoons are about exaggerating human features, and if a man has big lips (which many black people do have, where just as many, not all, white people have big noses!) he will be caricatured with said big lips but exaggerated! Are black features on black people inherently racist due to social stigma from the past? Why are white or Asian features not seen as racist compared to black features? Are white features the only non-racist features (which, if stating yes, is racist in itself)?

For example, Caucasian peoples (Europeans, Arabs, Indians, North Africans) can have long hooked noses. Hell, even that female from Attack on Titan, Annie, is distinctively Caucasian with blue eyes, blonde hair, and a long hooked nose, which if we take the same logic of using black features and use that same logic on white features, Annie should look like a racist caricature. Non-Caucasoid people don't have colorful hair and long hooked noses and blue eyes. Therefore, since she has distinctively "undesirable" white features, she is a racist caricature. Yes, same with big lips on black people, Caucasian people do not desire having large hooked noses and there is a huge industry (which Hollywood pushes forward, promoting the "perfect look" for a Caucasian person, which is JUST AS RACIST!!) where Caucasians get rhinoplasty done to have those "desirable" looks. It's the same socialization tactics used on black folk where having kinky hair and full lips were/are seen as "undesirable" or "ugly".

only oversensitive pseudohumanist people are making issues where there is none.

Exactly. People should embrace human features, exaggerated or not! Life would be boring if we all had slim noses, skinny figures, large eyes, and purple hair.

[jcogginsa]

Black people have full lips, dark skin, and broad noses. Do you have a problem with that?

Exactly! Lot's of black people look that way... so is drawing black features racist in itself? Should black people look like white or Asian people with black skin only? By hiding the fact that black people have these features is being a blanket racist.

So having straight blonde hair and a big nose and white skin is not racist (but stereo typically white) yet having an afro, full lips, and a broad flat nose is? Fucking bullshit double standards. I would draw black people how I observe them just as any race/animal/plant. That's art. Deal with it.

And yeah, racism is not how people look, it's how those specific people are portrayed. Mr Popo was one of the strongest, most bad ass fighters on Earth at his introduction, yet because he looks like a cartoon black person it is racist??? WHY? Is black features unwanted by the black community? Do black people hate their features? I know I'm generalizing, but cartoons are about exaggerating human features, and if a man has big lips (which many black people do have, where just as many, not all, white people have big noses!) he will be caricatured with said big lips but exaggerated! Are black features on black people inherently racist due to social stigma from the past? Why are white or Asian features not seen as racist compared to black features? Are white features the only non-racist features (which, if stating yes, is racist in itself)?

Mr. Popo was protrayed as an uneducated hick. He's also depicted in a completely servile light. He's always serving someone else, he's never taking charge or stepping out of his 'role'

The imagery utilized in his design was used to stereotype black people as Uneducated, lower class servants.

The worst kind of racism is the kind that goes unrecognized, because it allows those beliefs to infect new generations of people. Racism is not a thing of the past. It is a very real problem in today's society, and it is our responsibility to fight against it in any form

[Attitudefan]

And Annie from Attack on Titan is seen as a ruthless killer sociopath, just like her German ancestors. Same shit different colour. You can paint a piece of shit blue, it doesn't change the fact that it is still shit.
What I am getting at is that anything can be labelled racist even if it might not be intended. Not saying Popo was intended or not, but not everything is racist.

[jcogginsa]

And Annie from Attack on Titan is seen as a ruthless killer sociopath, just like her German ancestors. Same shit different colour. You can paint a piece of shit blue, it doesn't change the fact that it is still shit.

Having white skin and stereotypical white traits (like her Nazi like personality) is no different than a black person portrayed as uncivilized. Tell me, are the white rednecks racist too? They should be if "dumb" black people are considered so.

The difference there is that nearly the entire cast is German, including two of the three principal heroes

In some cases rednecks would be a racist stereotype as well (It obviously depends on the number of characters depicted that way, the race of the author, the setting of the story, etc.)

Their are something like 3 named characters in the series that are Black or use stereotypical black designs

Commander Black: Obviously uses the stereotypical appearance of black people as a basis of the design. Is depicted as a villain and a servile one for most of his screentime until he takes command near the end. In the anime, they even changed his title so that it would be a pun on the name of the racist imagery his appearence is drawn from.

Mr. Popo: Uses the racist imagery as a basis for his design, is depicted as an uneducated servent

Killa: Uses the imagery again as a basis, has a minimal role otherwise.

Again, Racism is still a problem that needs to be fought. If someone uses racist terms or imagery accidently, we do not let him continue to do so. We tell him that those words and images are wrong and harmful, and make them stop using them

[Polyphase Avatron]

Institutional racism in the western world is highly biased in favor of Caucasians. There are many studies that back this up (and no, pointing out individual exceptions is meaningless since I'm talking about the overall trend).

That said, I don't find Mr. Popo to be a racist depiction.

[Attitudefan]

Very good points.

(It obviously depends on the number of characters depicted that way, the race of the author, the setting of the story, etc.)

I think this is what seals the deal here. This is the most important point! In the end, it all comes down to context in and out of the story.

[Kamiccolo9]

Institutional racism in the western world is highly biased in favor of Caucasians. There are many studies that back this up (and no, pointing out individual exceptions is meaningless since I'm talking about the overall trend).

That said, I don't find Mr. Popo to be a racist depiction.

Japan isn't "the Western world."

[Polyphase Avatron]

Institutional racism in the western world is highly biased in favor of Caucasians. There are many studies that back this up (and no, pointing out individual exceptions is meaningless since I'm talking about the overall trend).

That said, I don't find Mr. Popo to be a racist depiction.

Japan isn't "the Western world."

I know but I was responding to Attitudefan's comments.

[StrawHatPatriot]

I'm just gaonna drop out of this thread if some you people are misunderstanding things this much. All I can say is just look up why this stuff is sensitive to some.

It's a like an echo-chamber of confirmation bias in here.