I find Goku to be the worst character in this show

[Basako]

Goku has not been characterised as a sociopath in Super. If reminding Zeno about the tournament is all you've got, that's nothing, because there is no way he could know Zeno would make up that rule of erasing universes. But, wait, because we could have new facts in chapter 81 in any direction.

I haven't liked his characterization for other reasons. It's true he was a fool before too, but in Super he is constantly like that and sometimes too much. And almost never gets really serious, as he used to before.

[Lujin_16]

Goku has not been characterised as a sociopath in Super. If reminding Zeno about the tournament is all you've got, that's nothing, because there is no way he could know Zeno would make up that rule of erasing universes. But, wait, because we could have new facts in chapter 81 in any direction.

I haven't liked his characterization for other reasons. It's true he was a fool before too, but in Super he is constantly like that and sometimes too much. And almost never gets really serious, as he used to before.

Because we had only Black Goku/Zamasu as villains that's why Goku is not all the time serious in Super than in Z...IN Z Goku has never had
much time to show his real character being dumb and childish....

[Doctor.]

Then describe what a sociopath "actually" is.
I read those examples already but you're not Boo Machine and they don't really answer the sociopath accusations.

Sociopathy is a trait of antisocial personality disorder, in which the person demonstrates a lack of empathy, remorse and a great sense of self, which is usually coupled with egotistical behavior. At least that's my understanding of it, I don't claim to be an expert on the subject, I don't study psychology, but I have a better understanding than most people, it seems, as people keep misusing the term to call Super!Goku a sociopath when, at best, he only has one of these characteristics: the egotistical behavior. And selfish is something Goku has always been.

Super!Goku called Beerus out on destroying innocent lives and the vision of his friends and family being destroyed gave him the will to fight back when he was losing. He also got furious at Freeza for killing Piccolo and trying to kill his friends with sneak-attacks. He also congratulated Gohan on having a child and gave him advice for the future. He also played with Pan willingly, promised to fly her to the sky and got extremely worried when she disappeared. He also demonstrated concern for the U6 fighters who were about to be wiped out by Champa and didn't intervene only because he wasn't strong enough. And, once again, him raging out against Black and Zamasu. This demonstrates that he does indeed feel empathy and has a moral compass.
Super!Goku blamed himself for not finishing off Freeza in the F arc following the destruction of Earth, showcasing that he does feel remorse for his actions and that he doesn't feel like he's above making mistakes.

Your arguments are the universal survival arc, which isn't nearly as bad of a situation as you're making it out to be, him contracting Hit, forgetting the senzus and other stuff and the kiss thing. In regards to Hit, that's just him being selfish, he's being a dick, he's not being a sociopath. In regards to forgetting stuff, he's just being a fucking moron. In regards to the kiss thing, are you serious? Who actually gives a shit?

It's obviously nowhere near as extreme as the tournament thing. There's no guarantee people would get hurt and the Z-Warriors actually have the sense to prepare for the androids. Even a child can see that.

No guarantee? Uh... how about Trunks' future? They know how the fight is going to end up, and Goku still chose to fight the androids anyway. It's just as extreme.

If you don't care about Goku's characterization in Super then why are you arguing in the first place. It has everything to do with the debate.

Because I take issue when a word is being misused. Goku isn't a sociopath, nor is he being portrayed as one accidentally. The people who think so are stupid or misinformed.

No, just people who go defend Super to the bitter even if it means throwing the original series under a bus to do so. Besides, these people like to throw labels themselves (far more than I do) so don't get mad when the shoe on the other foot.

Who's throwing the original series under the bus? I like asshole Goku and I think the series is better because of it.

Even still, admitting the original series has flaws or that Super may do some things better isn't "defending Super to the bitter even it means throwing the original series under a bus to do so". The fact that you think so just shows your extreme bias in these kinds of discussions. Also, ever heard of the expression "two wrongs don't make a right"?

A spoiler for Episode 81 reveals Goku would rather let the 11 universes get destroyed then accept losing so... not really.

Woah, those are a lot of assumptions to make regarding an episode summary and a few episode titles, I'm impressed.

I'm going to break down the universal survival thing, because it seems to be your main point.

Look, Goku asked, out of pure innocence, for the tournament, thinking nothing bad would happen. He can't be blamed for the universes being destroyed. He can be blamed for not listening to Beerus' warnings. And you can interpret him ignoring Beerus' warnings as him now thinking highly of himself and thinking he's above making mistakes, and you're probably right, but that still doesn't make him a sociopath. It makes him an asshole, because he is being purposefully portrayed as an asshole in this arc, all the clues make it clear. He wasn't being purposefully portrayed as an asshole before, he was just being an idiot, now he seems to have complete awareness over his actions and still chooses to do them anyway.

You could claim that Goku is a sociopath in the universal survival arc alone. That claim could still be refuted, because we're yet to see if he feels remorse (and he has shown he does feel a tiny bit of it) or empathy, but it stands much more highly than claiming he's a sociopath in all of Super, when that's just simply not the case for reasons I've already stated. But making that claim is still a little bit premature because we don't know what's going to happen in this arc. What we know is that Goku is, most likely, being set up for some character development, from the looks of things. This is a conscious decision by the writers to make him look bad.

Also,

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Goku does not give a flying fuck about anyone who dies as long as the Dragon Balls exist. This is not a new thing.

Yes I am blaming him because he warned by others not associate with Zeno but not only did he ignore them. he shows no care just as long as he gets a good fight in the end and the future only went to shit because the androids attacked the Z-Warriors when they at least expected them while in the present, they actually have the sense to prepare so no one ends up dying.

You're sounding extremely hypocritcal right now. It seems like all you want to do is freely shit on Super but praise the original series for doing the exact same thing. Or maybe you're just blinded by your childhood memories, I don't know.

"It's okay when Goku does something reckless and selfish despite being warned not to, but it's not okay when Goku does something reckless and selfish despite being warned not to."

Goku is taking measures in the universal survival arc, he's going to win and wish everyone back (presumably, at least). That is taking measures. It's the exact same kind of wishful thinking (that he's going to be the victor) as the one he applied in the Cell arc when he refused to find Gero and wanted to fight the androids instead. Not to mention that he asked Beerus and Whis if he should ask Zeno to remove the universal destruction rule, only to get his idea rejected by Whis.

No you're only twisting my words and using mental gymnastics... like a typical apologist.

Look, I'm going to give you genuine advice that you're probably just going to interpret as me attacking you. But, for the future, try not to be clouded by ignorance and hate when trying to discuss something. Because that's now how you discuss things. You dislike Super, whoopity doo, I don't care, don't shove it my face and try to make me your enemy just because I'm on the other side of the argument.

[Kishido]

Trunks is worse but he is pretty bad as well

[Kanassa]

No guarantee? Uh... how about Trunks' future? They know how the fight is going to end up, and Goku still chose to fight the androids anyway. It's just as extreme.

Actually, there's a difference. Here, Goku knows what's at stake. For the Universe Survivial Arc he didn't know until it was too late.

[TheMikado]

No guarantee? Uh... how about Trunks' future? They know how the fight is going to end up, and Goku still chose to fight the androids anyway. It's just as extreme.

Actually, there's a difference. Here, Goku knows what's at stake. For the Universe Survivial Arc he didn't know until it was too late.

Well no, this is different because they specifically discussed the consequences of inaction. It was basically decided that Dr. Gero technically had not done anything in their timeline yet. It was am implied "morality" which seemed to go hand-in-hand with Goku always letting villians have a chance to escape despite the reasons. They don't go actively looking for the androids to fight them or go possibly agitating a situation to make the androids appear. They let the natural course of things without their intervention take place and then respond accordingly to that natural series of events.

The Super thing is Goku taking a specific action which sets a chain of events into motion. I agree that Goku has not yet become full on sociopath, but the scene with Beerus and then headed to Zen'o was sociopath-like in nature.

So to review, there was an expressed morality in the decision to allow the androids to first appear. Nothing of Goku's visit to Zen'o was of expressly moral reasons. Morality and ethics being a key cornerstone of society at large.

[Kanassa]

No guarantee? Uh... how about Trunks' future? They know how the fight is going to end up, and Goku still chose to fight the androids anyway. It's just as extreme.

Actually, there's a difference. Here, Goku knows what's at stake. For the Universe Survivial Arc he didn't know until it was too late.

Well no, this is different because they specifically discussed the consequences of inaction. It was basically decided that Dr. Gero technically had not done anything in their timeline yet. It was am implied "morality" which seemed to go hand-in-hand with Goku always letting villians have a chance to escape despite the reasons. They don't go actively looking for the androids to fight them or go possibly agitating a situation to make the androids appear. They let the natural course of things without their intervention take place and then respond accordingly to that natural series of events.

As already mentioned, the moral question of killing Gero before he did anything wrong doesn't matter (Though he's already apart of Red Ribbon, his hands ain't clean). Because they could easily just stop his research without killing him.

The Super thing is Goku taking a specific action which sets a chain of events into motion. I agree that Goku has not yet become full on sociopath, but the scene with Beerus and then headed to Zen'o was sociopath-like in nature.

So to review, there was an expressed morality in the decision to allow the androids to first appear. Nothing of Goku's visit to Zen'o was of expressly moral reasons. Morality and ethics being a key cornerstone of society at large

The only reason the scene seems sociopath-like is because they put music and camera movements to make it look much more ominous then it really is. Of course there was no moral reasoning in the Zeno scene, because it wasn't a question of morals, it was a question of trust. Goku trusts Zeno because he has never been exposed to Zeno's ill deeds before, and can only think of him as an innocent child.

[TheMikado]

Actually, there's a difference. Here, Goku knows what's at stake. For the Universe Survivial Arc he didn't know until it was too late.

Well no, this is different because they specifically discussed the consequences of inaction. It was basically decided that Dr. Gero technically had not done anything in their timeline yet. It was am implied "morality" which seemed to go hand-in-hand with Goku always letting villians have a chance to escape despite the reasons. They don't go actively looking for the androids to fight them or go possibly agitating a situation to make the androids appear. They let the natural course of things without their intervention take place and then respond accordingly to that natural series of events.

As already mentioned, the moral question of killing Gero before he did anything wrong doesn't matter (Though he's already apart of Red Ribbon, his hands ain't clean). Because they could easily just stop his research without killing him.

The Super thing is Goku taking a specific action which sets a chain of events into motion. I agree that Goku has not yet become full on sociopath, but the scene with Beerus and then headed to Zen'o was sociopath-like in nature.

So to review, there was an expressed morality in the decision to allow the androids to first appear. Nothing of Goku's visit to Zen'o was of expressly moral reasons. Morality and ethics being a key cornerstone of society at large

The only reason the scene seems sociopath-like is because they put music and camera movements to make it look much more ominous then it really is. Of course there was no moral reasoning in the Zeno scene, because it wasn't a question of morals, it was a question of trust. Goku trusts Zeno because he has never been exposed to Zeno's ill deeds before, and can only think of him as an innocent child.

I'm not saying there aren't other actions they could have taken, the point is they have the moral discussion and they came to two options, kill him now or wait to deal with the androids is they come. In the context of the two choices they felt they had, they choose one out of morality. We could write tons of other ways to handle the situation, but for whatever reason in universe the characters identified those as the only options and choose the one they did due to morality.
As far as the music and camera making it appear ominous, its pretty obvious that's by design. Even the dialogue in written in such a way to state that Goku is a danger to the entire multiverse. As I said, Goku is not a full on sociopath, but denying that that scene was specifically written to show Goku as a clear danger would be like burying your head in the sand. I'm not sure what more combination of music, tone, and dialogue would tell the fans that Toei is clearing stating "Goku, don't do this, you're needlessly endangering everyone."

[JulieYBM]

Are you kidding me? How could I like a character who dooms 11 universes and doesn't give a shit?

Gokuu isn't a real person, he's a character in fiction. He doesn't have to be the sort to really care about that sort of thing, especially when he isn't actually responsible for the act you are accusing him of. It's okay to like characters who go against real-world morality. That's the very purpose for which fiction was conceptualized. Fiction is fiction because the rules of reality do not have to apply in any sort of consistent context. Fiction is merely a canvas for expressing ideas. I find it concerning that internet users in general seem incapable of separating the two.

So you're saying if a show wanted us to root for a serial child rapist or something like that, you would be perfectly fine with liking him and rooting for him because it's fiction? OF COURSE YOU WOULDN'T

It has NOTHING to do with separating fiction from reality. It has to do with main characters being likable. That's some pretty simple shit, dude. -_-

Rooting for serial ch**d r*pists is what fictional works do all the time. It just depends on what works you look at. The problem here is that you're continuing to look at a work and then being confused about what the purpose of the work is, assuming that all works must bend to your rules of what art should and should not be. The Dragon Ball that Toriyama Akira writes isn't about teaching simple morals, it's about indulging in everything society tells you is wrong within the safety of fiction. Just as one wants to see Ikari Shinji happy*, one wants to see him suffer. One wants to see him act out on all his negative emotions until finally he has destroyed and killed everything. This is why the 1997 film Shin Seiki Evangelion Gekijou-ban: Ea/Magokoro o, Kimi ni is so cathartic. Conversely, to see Gokuu so carefreely cause death and mayhem or Blooma complain about how nobody appreciates her sexiness and genius is also a form of release. One wants to see these characters get dirtier and dirtier.

*Preferably with a tsun-tsun housewife Asuka by his side!

[Cure Dragon 255]

I loved Jacob before but I love him more now.

[DBZAOTA482]

Sociopathy is a trait of antisocial personality disorder, in which the person demonstrates a lack of empathy, remorse and a great sense of self, which is usually coupled with egotistical behavior. At least that's my understanding of it, I don't claim to be an expert on the subject, I don't study psychology, but I have a better understanding than most people, it seems, as people keep misusing the term to call Super!Goku a sociopath when, at best, he only has one of these characteristics: the egotistical behavior. And selfish is something Goku has always been.

Super!Goku called Beerus out on destroying innocent lives and the vision of his friends and family being destroyed gave him the will to fight back when he was losing. He also got furious at Freeza for killing Piccolo and trying to kill his friends with sneak-attacks. He also congratulated Gohan on having a child and gave him advice for the future. He also played with Pan willingly, promised to fly her to the sky and got extremely worried when she disappeared. He also demonstrated concern for the U6 fighters who were about to be wiped out by Champa and didn't intervene only because he wasn't strong enough. And, once again, him raging out against Black and Zamasu. This demonstrates that he does indeed feel empathy and has a moral compass.
Super!Goku blamed himself for not finishing off Freeza in the F arc following the destruction of Earth, showcasing that he does feel remorse for his actions and that he doesn't feel like he's above making mistakes.

Now you're finally saying something... but just listing off examples isn't enough unfortunately.

...and sociopaths aren't necessarily egotistical but the general description is spot on, though.

Your arguments are the universal survival arc, which isn't nearly as bad of a situation as you're making it out to be, him contracting Hit, forgetting the senzus and other stuff and the kiss thing. In regards to Hit, that's just him being selfish, he's being a dick, he's not being a sociopath. In regards to forgetting stuff, he's just being a fucking moron. In regards to the kiss thing, are you serious? Who actually gives a shit?

I did say he was an asshole for the Hit thing but it can interpreted as an act of sociopathy because a symptoms is a lack of responsibility and the fact Goku secretly put a hit on himself without regard to his loved ones is... well... and I did he was retarded for forgetting that stuff but again, it also shows a lack of responsibility.

A lot of people give a shit surprisingly. I mean, just think about the implications? My mind is on some dark places just thinking about it.

==

No guarantee? Uh... how about Trunks' future? They know how the fight is going to end up, and Goku still chose to fight the androids anyway. It's just as extreme.

They know how it was going to end up but now they have the time and assets to prevent that stuff from happening. Besides, the whole gang except for Krillin (who isn't as warrior hardened as the others) and Bulma (who a bit of a coward) were on board with it.

Because I take issue when a word is being misused. Goku isn't a sociopath, nor is he being portrayed as one accidentally. The people who think so are stupid or misinformed.

So basically you're getting all worked up over people using a word to describe a fictional character? Damn, and I thought Mr. Enter took cartoons too seriously.

Who's throwing the original series under the bus? I like asshole Goku and I think the series is better because of it.

Even still, admitting the original series has flaws or that Super may do some things better isn't "defending Super to the bitter even it means throwing the original series under a bus to do so". The fact that you think so just shows your extreme bias in these kinds of discussions. Also, ever heard of the expression "two wrongs don't make a right"?

You may like "asshole Goku" but an asshole character can't work as a protagonist if the story doesn't acknowledge it. I honestly can't buy that a man supposedly an asshole is considered pure of heart.

People who defend Super do it all the time. Basically the only argument they have in Super's favor is that the original is just as flawed like everyone honestly think of it as some masterpiece and would accuse them of being something (like being a dub fanboy) just look at the dbz subforum of reddit (it's full of those people). I hate judgmental people... deal with them a lot even in real-life.

Sorry for you grouping with them but this shit is very real for me.

Woah, those are a lot of assumptions to make regarding an episode summary and a few episode titles, I'm impressed.

It's not that huge of an assumption if you read the whole plot synopsis.

[spoiler]
[/spoiler]

I'm going to break down the universal survival thing, because it seems to be your main point.

Look, Goku asked, out of pure innocence, for the tournament, thinking nothing bad would happen. He can't be blamed for the universes being destroyed. He can be blamed for not listening to Beerus' warnings. And you can interpret him ignoring Beerus' warnings as him now thinking highly of himself and thinking he's above making mistakes, and you're probably right, but that still doesn't make him a sociopath. It makes him an asshole, because he is being purposefully portrayed as an asshole in this arc, all the clues make it clear. He wasn't being purposefully portrayed as an asshole before, he was just being an idiot, now he seems to have complete awareness over his actions and still chooses to do them anyway.

You could claim that Goku is a sociopath in the universal survival arc alone. That claim could still be refuted, because we're yet to see if he feels remorse (and he has shown he does feel a tiny bit of it) or empathy, but it stands much more highly than claiming he's a sociopath in all of Super, when that's just simply not the case for reasons I've already stated. But making that claim is still a little bit premature because we don't know what's going to happen in this arc. What we know is that Goku is, most likely, being set up for some character development, from the looks of things. This is a conscious decision by the writers to make him look bad.

Also,

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Goku does not give a flying fuck about anyone who dies as long as the Dragon Balls exist. This is not a new thing.

1. You can't say Goku is completely innocent because even after being warned by Beerus and Whis, he still openly defied them.

2. Goku was training Goten and Trunks which was very important to defeat Majin Boo so losing a few casualties is better than everyone on Earth dying by acting on emotion.

You're sounding extremely hypocritcal right now. It seems like all you want to do is freely shit on Super but praise the original series for doing the exact same thing. Or maybe you're just blinded by your childhood memories, I don't know.

"It's okay when Goku does something reckless and selfish despite being warned not to, but it's not okay when Goku does something reckless and selfish despite being warned not to."

Goku is taking measures in the universal survival arc, he's going to win and wish everyone back (presumably, at least). That is taking measures. It's the exact same kind of wishful thinking (that he's going to be the victor) as the one he applied in the Cell arc when he refused to find Gero and wanted to fight the androids instead. Not to mention that he asked Beerus and Whis if he should ask Zeno to remove the universal destruction rule, only to get his idea rejected by Whis.

No, no... you got it all wrong. It's more like "It's understandable that Goku would stick to his warrior code/follow his Saiyan instinct and have a slight lapse in logic but it's not acceptable for him to act entirely on desire with total disregard of others" plus like I said multiple times, there's no guarantee people would die in the main timeline like they did in Trunks' timeline when they have all the means to prevent that as opposed to the tournament where 11 universes would almost certainly be destroyed if Goku's team wins.

If you assume that stuff out of me then I might as well take back my apology.

Look, I'm going to give you genuine advice that you're probably just going to interpret as me attacking you. But, for the future, try not to be clouded by ignorance and hate when trying to discuss something. Because that's now how you discuss things. You dislike Super, whoopity doo, I don't care, don't shove it my face and try to make me your enemy just because I'm on the other side of the argument.

You're saying that I claimed Super Goku actively tries to hurt people when the most I said is he either seems blind to the consequences of his actions or he just doesn't care about them. Also, think just now that I'm antagonizing you... you're playing victim by saying this (another sign of an apologist).

And? I'm unsure what you're trying to say here.

Goku never knew Gohan picked up on the plan on his own as Piccolo calling him out for not letting Gohan onto his plan seem like a earful for him (even moreso in the anime where they gave him a terrified look). It's a much more nuanced example of Goku's childlike selfishness as he was doubtful that he could even beat Cell (unlike previous villains) and didn't want anyone to worry so he choose to just let everyone enjoy the 10 days.

In the end of the Cell Games, he also admits Gohan is a better man than him.

Yeah? Isn't that what we want him to do? Take responsibility? He tries but it's not good enough because he didn't do it correctly? It kind of sounds like nit picking now.

You're right. No one should have to die for a tourny. It's a good thing that was never Gokus intention.

We want to take responsibility but the fact he has to be goaded into doing so is not really doing his image any justice.

I know this wasn't Goku's intention but he doesn't seem care or at least doesn't care enough.

Yes, But you used Vegeta being a threat, to make the point of why they couldn't hunt gero. Which is it? Is Vegeta a threat that they need to take care of or a common ally they can count on in this scenario? He can't be both. It's easy to say it worked out in hindsight.

Yes he can both. Remember the Namek Saga where him, Gohan, and Krillin formed an alliance to beat Freeza? It's basically the same here... let this bad guy hang so they can defeat a much greater evil and once his Planet Trade days are long over, he has no reason to be wrecking shit just obsessing over surpassing Goku.

I thought you said caring and showing concern wasn't a part of being a sociopath. Isn't that why you brush off my and others examples? But now not caring is a sign of being a sociopath?

Kissing or not isn't a determining factor that makes you a functioning member of society. That's just silly.

Why do you assume Goku is a master as taking care of pregnant women? Vegeta being there makes sense. It doesn't matter one way or the other if Goku is there. He isn't exactly a nurse. Call me crazy. I don't think most people watch Dragonball to see people go into labor. He tries to get Vegeta to come along, because he doesn't understand what it means for Vegeta to be there. That just makes him an idiot. Maybe An Insensitive dick even. Not a sociopath.

No... it's having no conscious that's a sign of a sociopath and the fact Goku literally chose satisfying his battle boner over mortal life definitely would come off as sociopathic.

It's not just the fact he doesn't kiss but the implication that he doesn't even know what kissing is despite married for 20 years and having two kids that's the issue.

Goku doesn't have to be an expert of taking care of pregnant women to just to be there for something as rough as pregnancy it only requires something called empathy and the fact Goku only did whatever the fuck he wanted. That's just... wrong on so many levels and it says a lot when Vegeta, an insensitive dick, choose to be there for his wife but never Goku so he's beyond an insensitive dick going by this.

[Doctor.]

but just listing off examples isn't enough unfortunately.

Then what is?

A lot of people give a shit surprisingly. I mean, just think about the implications? My mind is on some dark places just thinking about it.

He's an alien who spent his childhood in the woods. How is this surprising?

They know how it was going to end up but now they have the time and assets to prevent that stuff from happening. Besides, the whole gang except for Krillin (who isn't as warrior hardened as the others) and Bulma (who a bit of a coward) were on board with it.

So they decided to take risks instead of taking the safe option. It still means Goku is being reckless to satisfy his selfish desire to fight the androids.

So basically you're getting all worked up over people using a word to describe a fictional character? Damn, and I thought Mr. Enter took cartoons too seriously.

I don't take cartoons seriously, I take words seriously.

You may like "asshole Goku" but an asshole character can't work as a protagonist if the story doesn't acknowledge it. I honestly can't buy that a man supposedly an asshole is considered pure of heart.

The story acknowledges multiple times that Goku isn't doing the right thing. They don't acknowledge that he's a terrible person, because he's not, but it acknowledges that he doesn't do everything out of a purely altruistic motive.

Toriyama has already classified what he means when the story calls him "pure of heart":

At any rate, I wanted him to have the sense of being that rare guy who seeks only “to become stronger than before”, so much so that it feels like “there’s no one as pure as this person”. And while he does end up saving everyone as a result of that, he himself at least has a very pure sincerity about “wanting to become stronger”. What I wanted to depict the most was the sense that he might not be a good guy at all, although he does do good things as a result.

He's "pure" in the sense that he's a simpleton with good intentions who cares too much about one thing. He's not pure in the sense that he's a hero of justice.

1. You can't say Goku is completely innocent because even after being warned by Beerus and Whis, he still openly defied them.

Yes, and like I said, this seems to be the only leg you have to stand on, because he's showcasing a lack of care for authority and thinks himself above the Gods. But it's clear the story, this time at least, is purposefully portraying him this way.

2. Goku was training Goten and Trunks which was very important to defeat Majin Boo so losing a few casualties is better than everyone on Earth dying by acting on emotion.

Goku could have defeated Majin Boo himself.

where 11 universes would almost certainly be destroyed if Goku's team wins.

And wished back.

You're saying that I claimed Super Goku actively tries to hurt people

No, I asked you a question: if you were saying that or not. And then I said that if you think so, you're being unreasonable, and if you don't think so, then I didn't see any difference between the selfish behavior of Z Goku and the selfish behavior of Super Goku.

[Boo Machine]

Goku never knew Gohan picked up on the plan on his own as Piccolo calling him out for not letting Gohan onto his plan seem like a earful for him (even moreso in the anime where they gave him a terrified look). It's a much more nuanced example of Goku's childlike selfishness as he was doubtful that he could even beat Cell (unlike previous villains) and didn't want anyone to worry so he choose to just let everyone enjoy the 10 days.

Gohan figured out though. It's why he has to explain it to Cell. How would Goku not know gohan knows? What makes you think he doesn't? Are we assuming Goku thinks Gohan is dumb? Why does it matter and why does him saying it 7 years later even matter.

We want to take responsibility but the fact he has to be goaded into doing so is not really doing his image any justice.

I know this wasn't Goku's intention but he doesn't seem care or at least doesn't care enough.

They started yelling at him right away. Not exactly enough time to do much on his own. Of course they were going to. If they didn't we would be wondering why THEY don't seem to care. Even so being goaded doesn't take away the fact that he tried. And that he is still doing what he can at the moment. Words of regret aren't going to fix this. Goku knows this. If he want's to fix it then he has to fight and play the game. If he doesn't , then boom! They all go. And as I've said, watching an emo goku the whole episode would be awful. He has a quick acknowledgement then moves on. Just like with Vegeta.

Yes he can both. Remember the Namek Saga where him, Gohan, and Krillin formed an alliance to beat Freeza? It's basically the same here... let this bad guy hang so they can defeat a much greater evil and once his Planet Trade days are long over, he has no reason to be wrecking shit just obsessing over surpassing Goku.

In the case of Namek, they didn't have much choice. Goku wasn't there yet and NOT teaming up with Vegeta would have meant death otherwise. In the case of Vegeta and the andriods. They very much have the means to beat Vegeta and stop the andriods. Goku was there and they had the dragonballs. Teaming up with Vegeta was not required. They very much could have taken care of all problems whenever they chose to. They just chose not to.

What made you think that his Planet trading days being over made him less of a threat? He didn't exactly keep his intentions of immortality then ruling over the universe a secret on Namek. And according to you he would have had no issues killing anyone who stopped gero. Still very much sounds like a threat. But one they could take care of. Because Goku is there.

No... it's having no conscious that's a sign of a sociopath and the fact Goku literally chose satisfying his battle boner over mortal life definitely would come off as sociopathic.

It's not just the fact he doesn't kiss but the implication that he doesn't even know what kissing is despite married for 20 years and having two kids that's the issue.

Goku doesn't have to be an expert of taking care of pregnant women to just to be there for something as rough as pregnancy it only requires something called empathy and the fact Goku only did whatever the fuck he wanted. That's just... wrong on so many levels and it says a lot when Vegeta, an insensitive dick, choose to be there for his wife but never Goku so he's beyond an insensitive dick going by this.

You didn't say conscious. You said lack of empathy. You drove that point pretty far until now when I tried to suggest anything else. And even so, Goku shows clear signs of having a conscious. You yourself JUST acknowledged that he did not have the intent of death over others when he asked for the tournament. So no. Even according to you, he did not literally choose battle boners over mortal life.

I still don't understand why the knowledge of kissing would make someone function in scociety more. Considering that he IS married, he DOES have two kids, and he keeps a job these days shows that he functions fairly well. For the most part. We still have goku being weird in public, but that's because he is an alien who was raised in the woods. Not because the knowledge of mouth to mouth eludes him.

Why is it wrong? He doesn't have to be there. Hell, no one expects him to be. Bulma was perfectly fine with Goku doing whatever he wanted. Bulma has Vegeta, her parents, her son, and the pilaf gang who seem to already be following here around and helping her out to help her out. Goku hanging around would do nothing. Do YOU wait on every pregnant woman you know? Does anybody make it their duty to stay with a pregnant loved one and drop everything to wait on them all day? Absolutely not. Why would we expect Goku of all people to? Is that the episode you wanted? It does not equal lack of empathy. At best , again, it's just being an insensitive dick. But if bulma doesn't care about this non-issue, I don't see why anyone else would.

[Kanassa]

Why is it wrong? He doesn't have to be there. Hell, no one expects him to be. Bulma was perfectly fine with Goku doing whatever he wanted. Bulma has Vegeta, her parents, her son, and the pilaf gang who seem to already be following here around and helping her out to help her out. Goku hanging around would do nothing. Do YOU wait on every pregnant woman you know? Does anybody make it their duty to stay with a pregnant loved one and drop everything to wait on them all day? Absolutely not. Why would we expect Goku of all people to? Is that the episode you wanted? It does not equal lack of empathy. At best , again, it's just being an insensitive dick. But if bulma doesn't care about this non-issue, I don't see why anyone else would.

I still don't see this 'Goku was a dick to Bulma' stuff, he DOES stay and chat with her, he's perfectly willing to hand her his offering for Whis even after Goten reminds him that he won't get trained if he doesn't have the offering. Yeah, he tries to convince Vegeta to come with him, but Bulma has a fuckton of other people to take care of her. Hell, Vegeta isn't really there for her. He's just standing in a garden doing nothing, how does that help Bulma?

[DBZAOTA482]

Then what is?

Rationalizing the more extreme stuff.

He's an alien who spent his childhood in the woods. How is this surprising?

Because he has been married for 20 years and had two kids.

So they decided to take risks instead of taking the safe option. It still means Goku is being reckless to satisfy his selfish desire to fight the androids.

Well of course... but as long as he acknowledges the consequences and is truly sorry then it's forgivable.

I don't take cartoons seriously, I take words seriously.

Then maybe you need thicker skin.

Yes, and like I said, this seems to be the only leg you have to stand on, because he's showcasing a lack of care for authority and thinks himself above the Gods. But it's clear the story, this time at least, is purposefully portraying him this way.

A lack of care for authority and the fact he openly defies them is also a sigh of a sociopath.

The story acknowledges multiple times that Goku isn't doing the right thing. They don't acknowledge that he's a terrible person, because he's not, but it acknowledges that he doesn't do everything out of a purely altruistic motive.

Toriyama has already classified what he means when the story calls him "pure of heart":

At any rate, I wanted him to have the sense of being that rare guy who seeks only “to become stronger than before”, so much so that it feels like “there’s no one as pure as this person”. And while he does end up saving everyone as a result of that, he himself at least has a very pure sincerity about “wanting to become stronger”. What I wanted to depict the most was the sense that he might not be a good guy at all, although he does do good things as a result.

He's "pure" in the sense that he's a simpleton with good intentions who cares too much about one thing. He's not pure in the sense that he's a hero of justice.

Fair enough, but being a simpleton isn't the same as being an asshole. Asshole are naturally rude and offensive (something Goku even struggled to do), which are definitely not pure traits.

Also, the fact Goku only does good things coincidentally is obviously false.

Goku could have defeated Majin Boo himself.

He could... but he had a reason not to. He wasn't gonna be around forever and he wanted to make sure the kids would be able to protect Earth themselves while he's gone.

And wished back.

Yes, but simply having a good fight is not worth having people die in the first place.

No, I asked you a question: if you were saying that or not. And then I said that if you think so, you're being unreasonable, and if you don't think so, then I didn't see any difference between the selfish behavior of Z Goku and the selfish behavior of Super Goku.

But the fact you would even come to that conclusion is ridiculous. I said nothing close to that and I even described the differences between the two.

Gohan figured out though. It's why he has to explain it to Cell. How would Goku not know gohan knows? What makes you think he doesn't? Are we assuming Goku thinks Gohan is dumb? Why does it matter and why does him saying it 7 years later even matter.

Goku was discussing quietly to Cell though... and the narrative made it clear Goku didn't know that Gohan already knew. It matters because Gohan might have had an easier time unleashing his rage boost with some emotional guidance... which is why #16 being destroyed before him was the thing that triggered him.

They started yelling at him right away. Not exactly enough time to do much on his own. Of course they were going to. If they didn't we would be wondering why THEY don't seem to care. Even so being goaded doesn't take away the fact that he tried. And that he is still doing what he can at the moment. Words of regret aren't going to fix this. Goku knows this. If he want's to fix it then he has to fight and play the game. If he doesn't , then boom! They all go. And as I've said, watching an emo goku the whole episode would be awful. He has a quick acknowledgement then moves on. Just like with Vegeta.

Having to be goaded into doing it does take away from it as it shows him as not truly caring about the consequences and is only doing what he was told.

Nobody wants "Emo" Goku but at least it'd be something different. Having him act serious like he should would be far better than him having his trademark "battle-hungry" smirk.

In the case of Namek, they didn't have much choice. Goku wasn't there yet and NOT teaming up with Vegeta would have meant death otherwise. In the case of Vegeta and the andriods. They very much have the means to beat Vegeta and stop the andriods. Goku was there and they had the dragonballs. Teaming up with Vegeta was not required. They very much could have taken care of all problems whenever they chose to. They just chose not to.

What made you think that his Planet trading days being over made him less of a threat? He didn't exactly keep his intentions of immortality then ruling over the universe a secret on Namek. And according to you he would have had no issues killing anyone who stopped gero. Still very much sounds like a threat. But one they could take care of. Because Goku is there.

Vegeta's people are all dead (aside from Goku) and the Planet Trade Organization is practically dead with Freeza gone so he has nothing to rule over. Not to mention he's living under Bulma (who wipes her ass with $1000s) so he doesn't have to worry about money either... he's much more concerned with surpassing Goku than anything else.

You didn't say conscious. You said lack of empathy. You drove that point pretty far until now when I tried to suggest anything else. And even so, Goku shows clear signs of having a conscious. You yourself JUST acknowledged that he did not have the intent of death over others when he asked for the tournament. So no. Even according to you, he did not literally choose battle boners over mortal life.

I still don't understand why the knowledge of kissing would make someone function in scociety more. Considering that he IS married, he DOES have two kids, and he keeps a job these days shows that he functions fairly well. For the most part. We still have goku being weird in public, but that's because he is an alien who was raised in the woods. Not because the knowledge of mouth to mouth eludes him.

Why is it wrong? He doesn't have to be there. Hell, no one expects him to be. Bulma was perfectly fine with Goku doing whatever he wanted. Bulma has Vegeta, her parents, her son, and the pilaf gang who seem to already be following here around and helping her out to help her out. Goku hanging around would do nothing. Do YOU wait on every pregnant woman you know? Does anybody make it their duty to stay with a pregnant loved one and drop everything to wait on them all day? Absolutely not. Why would we expect Goku of all people to? Is that the episode you wanted? It does not equal lack of empathy. At best , again, it's just being an insensitive dick. But if bulma doesn't care about this non-issue, I don't see why anyone else would.

Conscience (Sorry misused word lol) and empathy are basically the same thing. Maybe literally is not the right word but in a practical sense, he certainly is.

The fact he doesn't even know what kissing is despite being married for 20 years and having two kids is the problem... besides, he only got married over a misunderstanding and not all marriages are happy. His job also doesn't require much socializing.

Of course, he doesn't have to be around for Bulma but the fact he implies he was never there for Chi-Chi (his wife) when she was pregnant, suggests that pregnancy is a woman's dilemma alone, and they should deal with it on their own is just... bad. Vegeta is already an insensitive dick but still choose to be here for his wife Bulma so that label can't even properly describe him. You're making way too much of this... Goku shouldn't drop everything for pussy but it wouldn't hurt for him to at least try and be supportive.

Yes, I did look forward to the episode but I sure as hell didn't want it to be just another one of Super's attempts to minimize Goku x Chi-Chi in order to make their OTPs look good. It's one thing for fanfic writers to do it but for official writers on a direct midquel/sequel to one of the most popular and influential anime/manga of all-time... it's hella unprofessional and that bugs the hell outta me.

[Doctor.]

Because he has been married for 20 years and had two kids.

Yes, he's been married for 20 years (most of the time he's either been training or dead) with another country bumpkin because she basically forced him to. Chi-Chi herself probably also doesn't even know what kissing is, she's a country gal.

Well of course... but as long as he acknowledges the consequences and is truly sorry then it's forgivable.

He was only sorry for the consequences at the end of the arc, when he died. Give this arc some time, will you? I very much doubt they're setting up all this shit for it not to be addressed.

Then maybe you need thicker skin.

Why? I'm not offended or upset, I'm engaging in a discussion.

The story acknowledges multiple times that Goku isn't doing the right thing. They don't acknowledge that he's a terrible person, because he's not, but it acknowledges that he doesn't do everything out of a purely altruistic motive.

Toriyama has already classified what he means when the story calls him "pure of heart":

Fair enough, but being a simpleton isn't the same as being an asshole. Asshole are naturally rude and offensive (something Goku even struggled to do), which are definitely not pure traits.

Also, the fact Goku only does good things coincidentally is obviously false.

Goku isn't an asshole on purpose either. He's an asshole on accident most of the time.

He wasn't gonna be around forever and he wanted to make sure the kids would be able to protect Earth themselves while he's gone.

Yes, and if he really wanted to minimize the number of deaths as you say, then he would have killed Boo right there then teach them the dance. He didn't want to minimize the number of deaths, he simply didn't care if anyone died because he could wish them back. Hell, when he fights Majin Boo and his Kamehameha is deflected, killing one tenth of the population (according to Babidi), Goku also doesn't seem to care.

Yes, but simply having a good fight is not worth having people die in the first place.

Goku doesn't care if someone dies as long as the prospect of being revived exists, as demonstrated above.

[SansrivaaL]

You guys are really heating things up here.
All I'm clear on is that AT wants to convey that Goku may not even be a good guy, but just a simple pure hearted person that only wants to break past his limits, altho he does good things as a result most of the times.
I believe this was in an interview, I forgot where tho. This arc perfectly fits what he wants to achieve.

[Boo Machine]

Goku was discussing quietly to Cell though... and the narrative made it clear Goku didn't know that Gohan already knew. It matters because Gohan might have had an easier time unleashing his rage boost with some emotional guidance... which is why #16 being destroyed before him was the thing that triggered him.

To be honest I'm completely lost on where this Cell rage thing is even going anymore. I feel like this has gone around in circles and not quite sure where it is at this point.

Having to be goaded into doing it does take away from it as it shows him as not truly caring about the consequences and is only doing what he was told.

Nobody wants "Emo" Goku but at least it'd be something different. Having him act serious like he should would be far better than him having his trademark "battle-hungry" smirk.

Except the point is centered around the use of the word sociopath. And being goaded doesn't take away the other acts of caring.

I agree to the point of Goku maybe should have had a little more reflection of his actions. But even then I can't say for sure because who knows what the future episodes will do. But having a serious Goku is only fun when shit hits the fan. I realize this might qualify as shit hitting fan, but it's only 3 episodes into the arc. Having Goku be stuck in serious mode now would take all the fun out of the character. Then he would be boring.

Vegeta's people are all dead (aside from Goku) and the Planet Trade Organization is practically dead with Freeza gone so he has nothing to rule over. Not to mention he's living under Bulma (who wipes her ass with $1000s) so he doesn't have to worry about money either... he's much more concerned with surpassing Goku than anything else.

Yes...now. But, again, you tried to use Vegeta as a reason they couldn't hunt Gero. Because he is really dangerous and might kill his friends. But now he has no concern with anything except surpassing Goku? Which would mean he ISNT dangerous and they COULD have hunted Gero. But it doesn't even matter, because if Vegeta is dangerous, then Goku can take care of him and they should have hunted Gero if they were so worried about the future. If Vegeta is not dangerous then they have nothing to worry about and they can still hunt Gero. Vegeta is barely a factor here because in either case he is dead or where he ended up. Training by himself anyway. The point of this whole part of the discussion was to see if Goku was selfish and dumb to not stop the android threat prematurely. Which, in either situation with Vegeta, is a major yes.

Conscience (Sorry misused word lol) and empathy are basically the same thing. Maybe literally is not the right word but in a practical sense, he certainly is

Then Goku has shown clear signs of having a conscience. I wouldn't even buy it practically. Saying he did implies that he was for the tournament even knowing it had a death penalty to end all death penalties. Which isn't true. And you acknowledged that.

The fact he doesn't even know what kissing is despite being married for 20 years and having two kids is the problem... besides, he only got married over a misunderstanding and not all marriages are happy. His job also doesn't require much socializing.

I'm not going to get into the whole "is Gokus marriage a happy one" because that is way too deep for Dragonball. That may go for most of our discussion, but still. The point here is, Kissing is not a determining factor in someones ability to function in society. If Goku is having trouble fitting in, then, again, it's because he is from an alien race that likes to punch things that was raised in the woods (and if you want you can even throw in the whole "Dropped on his head" thing as well). Not because of his lack of lip skills.

Of course, he doesn't have to be around for Bulma but the fact he implies he was never there for Chi-Chi (his wife) when she was pregnant, suggests that pregnancy is a woman's dilemma alone, and they should deal with it on their own is just... bad. Vegeta is already an insensitive dick but still choose to be here for his wife Bulma so that label can't even properly describe him. You're making way too much of this... Goku shouldn't drop everything for pussy but it wouldn't hurt for him to at least try and be supportive.

How was it implied he wasn't there for Chi Chi? The only thing I can think of is the "Looks like you ate too much" joke. Which at best is a dumb joke by Goku and at worst just Goku being too much of an idiot to pick it up right away. It doesn't "imply" anything unless you just want to overthink a dumb joke. With Goten. Yeah, he wasn't there. Death has a way of holding up people from obligations. Even with Vegeta being there, what exactly is Vegeta doing that's so much better. He is there. But thats about it. Because Goku just "Being around" doesn't make him a good family man to a lot of people. Does hanging around count for anything or not? Because that's currently all vegeta is doing.

I'm making too much of this? The only reason I'm even discussing this at all is because you imply sociopathy and really "dark implications" to Goku choosing not to drop everything he is doing to hang around bulma. Otherwise I would have never given it a second thought. Like I'm sure most people wouldnt have. And Kanassa makes a good point. Goku stayed and chatted a bit with bulma. They just talked, it was nice. He even offered some of his food for Whis. Yes, he forgot it was for Whis, but still his first thought was to give away his training tokens to bulma to be nice. Goten had to tell him to keep them. It may not be most supportive man in the world material. But he still shows some support. He could have just spent the whole time with Vegeta, or in the yard getting ready for training.

Yes, I did look forward to the episode but I sure as hell didn't want it to be just another one of Super's attempts to minimize Goku x Chi-Chi in order to make their OTPs look good. It's one thing for fanfic writers to do it but for official writers on a direct midquel/sequel to one of the most popular and influential anime/manga of all-time... it's hella unprofessional and that bugs the hell outta me.

I'm unsure what his is about or even if it's directed at me.

[Boo Machine]

You guys are really heating things up here.
All I'm clear on is that AT wants to convey that Goku may not even be a good guy, but just a simple pure hearted person that only wants to break past his limits, altho he does good things as a result most of the times.
I believe this was in an interview, I forgot where tho. This arc perfectly fits what he wants to achieve.

Yes, It's because of Gokus character being the way it is, that I'm interested to see how this arc goes. Way more than when I thought it was just going to be another tournament and Especially if they're going to make Goku's "poison" the center of conflict. Which I hope they do.

[Ki Breaker]

Especially if they're going to make Goku's "poison" the center of conflict. Which I hope they do.

Frost's and lavendas poison is water Infront of this poison, pretty much wiping out multiverses here..

In all seriousness though, this with good execution ( this part is really important ) could be a very good character progression and exploration opportunity