Something superior to arguing canon: entertainment order.

[Kunzait_83]

Role playing games, for example, were niche titles on the PS1 and not as high regarded or commercially successful, except to those reviewers who were into the scene for something different,

I'd... hardly call a game like Final Fantasy VII (which in case you might not have heard, was a PS1 RPG) a "niche title" that was "not high regarded or commercially successful". To put it mildly.

[Desassina]

Yeah, I didn't actually play Final Fantasy VII back then, so it's my fault that the comparison didn't make it like it would have with SNES or even Genesis' RPG. I wanted to support your point of view that expectations change with time, not only to filter out those which didn't become classics, but to appreciate others like they hadn't been in their time.

[Kunzait_83]

Yeah, I didn't actually play Final Fantasy VII back then, so it's my fault that the comparison didn't make it like it would have with SNES or even Genesis' RPG.

Even THEN though... you still had titles like Chrono Trigger or Final Fantasy III/VI, which were by NO stretch of the imagination "niche non-hits" that nobody back then besides gaming die hards had played.

I would actually argue that RPGs, to one extent or another, were really NEVER quite as "niche" as so many critics and historians like to make it sound like they were, for whatever reason. This idea that "RPGs weren't mainstream to most gamers" at varying points in time... I mean I've been a gamer since the NES days in the 80s, and I honestly have ZERO idea where this notion comes from.

Lots and lots of people played the ever loving FUCK out of the original Final Fantasy and Dragon Warrior games. People played (and utterly SPLOOGED over) Chrono Trigger, Secret of Mana, Ogre Battle, Breath of Fire, Shining Force, etc. Hell, Mario RPG was on the SNES (and predates FFVII by at least a year or two), and that was released to IMMENSE fanfare and acclaim at the time. You couldn't walk into a store anywhere without seeing giant ads for that thing staring you in the face.

None of these were remotely obscure or unheard of games. They were generally high profile titles that most people who followed video games (to whatever degree) at least had SOME passing experience with. Even Earthbound, a game that many recognize was NOT a big hit seller in its day, was at the very least MASSIVELY hyped and advertised to kingdom come back then, so when it underperformed in sales it damn sure wasn't from lack of visibility.

This idea that it was Final Fantasy VII or some PS2-era game that "officially made RPGs mainstream" is just... yeah, it doesn't hold water at all with the actual reality of living through gaming culture from back in the day. The genre, to one extent or another, has almost ALWAYS been a major part of gaming in one form or fashion.

[Desassina]

I may want to try and collect more magazines from back then. Maybe they will give me another perspective of how it was in the states and everywhere else. I only go as far back as 92 when I was born in 88. You can already imagine that it was Sonic, Tomb Raider, and a few others for the impressionable kids

[Kunzait_83]

'92 is WELL within the timeframe that I'm talking about here.

You can crack open ANY gaming magazine from back then and on and be utterly assaulted from every which way with article after article after article on dizzying amounts of RPGs. Even Nintendo Power, which was by all means the staple "filthy casual" rag du jour of the time, covered the ever loving shit out of the genre issue after issue after issue. Illusion of Gaia, Lufia, Mana, you name it. By I think '94 or '95 they even had "Epic Center" which was this GIANT subsection dedicated SOLELY to analyzing, dissecting, and breaking down various hit RPGs in spectacularly gross detail.

Then you go to stuff like EGM and Gamepro and GameFan where RPGs are even MORE prevalent, because now its not just limited solely to releases on Nintendo platforms. So you get stuff like Lunar and Popful Mail and Phantasy Star and whatnot coming at you left, right, and center. Even stuff that didn't make it to the U.S. at all like Far East of Eden, Shin Megami Tensei, or the original Front Mission would get covered.

Like I said, RPGs in the 16 bit era were by NO means some impossible to find little backwoods obscurity being played by 6 people. Quite the opposite. The "FFVII introduced everyone to the genre" narrative is complete horse crap and always was. Maybe it introduced a bunch of 5 or 6 year olds just playing their first games at the time, sure... but not the entire Western market by any stretch.

[Shaddy]

It's far easier to assess quality in hindsight, but no one goes into these things trying to make a bad movie or TV show.

Obviously? I never implied anything like that, just that Dragon Ball, when compared to the things that succeeded it, doesn't really hold up in my opinion, and I would say changing the way it's consumed is the only way I can see to have fun with it the same way others can.

Never saw it, but I have seen a recut that just wants to get through it as quick as possible without allowing moments to naturally breathe. I like Kai because for the most part, it gets rid of most of the filler it can but allows moments to breathe. Good pacing doesn't just mean fast. I'll take DB and Kai over a fan-cut any day.

Okay, but I feel like acting like the manga has "no room to breathe" just because you prefer the anime is doing it a disservice. Nobody is asking for a 1:1 translation (well, I'm not) but I prefer a show that feels as if it moves at the speed a TV show should, and Dragon Ball has consistently been slower than that.

*Very loud post*

Okay, I understand all of what you're saying (though I don't necessarily agree with it), but what I'm saying is that the way the original DB TV series is constructed hasn't aged well, and that's why I'm suggesting a different version of it. I never meant to imply that all that is old is worse than new, just that in my equally subjective opinion, what a show like Dragon Ball needs to be to be enjoyable is not one where the way Dragon Ball itself handles things works. Hell, it was criticized back then too, so your statement works both ways. I mean, you put it great here:

you judge it by its individual strengths and qualities. Sometimes those strengths (and weaknesses) are direct products of their day... sometimes though, some things are just timelessly fucking good (or bad). Other times, some things are re-evaluated after a certain stretch of time and their seams (or virtues) become more readily apparent.

The individual quality of Dragon Ball's pacing is something I consider shitty and boring and terrible enough that I would recommend a fan cut that moves things along better, because I've seen what actual story pacing is like. That is my impression of the standard, and I understand that that is not the literal defined idea of what every anime in existence is like in 2018, but it's what I've come to expect from a show of this type, and it's what most people I know have come to expect, when at the time the show was airing, it was less common. That's all I ever meant to say here.

it's mainly due to its modern games hitting a new low with every release, which should be closer to our (rather fickle) expectations.

Of course they would be. But they aren't, because that statement is wrong. Have problems with the series all you want, but if you want to pretend it only gets worse when Sonic 06 continues to exist, there's nothing I can do to help you.

[Kid Buu]

Yeah, I didn't actually play Final Fantasy VII back then, so it's my fault that the comparison didn't make it like it would have with SNES or even Genesis' RPG.

Even THEN though... you still had titles like Chrono Trigger or Final Fantasy III/VI, which were by NO stretch of the imagination "niche non-hits" that nobody back then besides gaming die hards had played.

I would actually argue that RPGs, to one extent or another, were really NEVER quite as "niche" as so many critics and historians like to make it sound like they were, for whatever reason. This idea that "RPGs weren't mainstream to most gamers" at varying points in time... I mean I've been a gamer since the NES days in the 80s, and I honestly have ZERO idea where this notion comes from.

Lots and lots of people played the ever loving FUCK out of the original Final Fantasy and Dragon Warrior games. People played (and utterly SPLOOGED over) Chrono Trigger, Secret of Mana, Ogre Battle, Breath of Fire, Shining Force, etc. Hell, Mario RPG was on the SNES (and predates FFVII by at least a year or two), and that was released to IMMENSE fanfare and acclaim at the time. You couldn't walk into a store anywhere without seeing giant ads for that thing staring you in the face.

None of these were remotely obscure or unheard of games. They were generally high profile titles that most people who followed video games (to whatever degree) at least had SOME passing experience with. Even Earthbound, a game that many recognize was NOT a big hit seller in its day, was at the very least MASSIVELY hyped and advertised to kingdom come back then, so when it underperformed in sales it damn sure wasn't from lack of visibility.

This idea that it was Final Fantasy VII or some PS2-era game that "officially made RPGs mainstream" is just... yeah, it doesn't hold water at all with the actual reality of living through gaming culture from back in the day. The genre, to one extent or another, has almost ALWAYS been a major part of gaming in one form or fashion.

Maybe in the US, but a lot of those games you mentioned didn't even get released in Europe.

[Zephyr]

Sonic games on the Genesis weren't nearly as high regarded then as they are now, and it's mainly due to its modern games hitting a new low with every release

I don't know. For a while there (probably up until Sonic Mania came around), the "Sonic was never good" meme was going quite strong, in large part as a result of these constant lows that the modern games compulsively made it their goal to hit. In other words, the contemporary low quality was serving to inspire some incredible revisionist history regarding the quality of the original games.

The Adventure games and Unleashed, however, fit your outlined bill to a T. They're now regarded in a lot of zealous circles as amazing, when it's only really in comparison to these horrendous modern titles that they're remotely admirable.

[Kid Buu]

Sonic games on the Genesis weren't nearly as high regarded then as they are now, and it's mainly due to its modern games hitting a new low with every release

I don't know. For a while there (probably up until Sonic Mania came around), the "Sonic was never good" meme was going quite strong, in large part as a result of these constant lows that the modern games compulsively made it their goal to hit. In other words, the contemporary low quality was serving to inspire some incredible revisionist history regarding the quality of the original games.

The Adventure games and Unleashed, however, fit your outlined bill to a T. They're now regarded in a lot of zealous circles as amazing, when it's only really in comparison to these horrendous modern titles that they're remotely admirable.

Also the Mega Drive Sonic games were always popular. It was pretty much the definitive Mega Drive series alongside Mortal Kombat and EA/Sega Sports games.

[Zephyr]

Also the Mega Drive Sonic games were always popular. It was pretty much the definitive Mega Drive series alongside Mortal Kombat and EA/Sega Sports games.

Yup. You don't get Happy Meal toys, a spot in the Macy's Thanksgiving Parade, several TV series in a single year, a comic book, allegedly being more recognizable to children than Abe Lincoln or Mickey Mouse, and a collaboration with Michael Jackson, without being regarded incredibly highly.

[Shaddy]

Okay what exactly constitutes "modern" now? Because according to Generations, "modern Sonic" is everything from 06 onward, except you compare Unleashed to them, even though it's one of them? If modern is just 'recent', then there's only been 2 main series games in the last five years, and neither of them reach the utter shit quality of 06 or Secret Rings or Shadow, so saying that "modern Sonic" is worse than everything else would be wrong. Plus, they were preceded by Colors and Generations, wholly considered good games by critics and fans alike. Are those not part of the modern era because people are allowed to like them? I guess the 3DS version of Lost World is one of the worst things I've ever played, but if anything that's more a sign of how far DIMPS has fallen with Sonic than anything else.

Like, nobody's denying that it's qualitatively inconsistent, but saying "all new Sonic is trash" is just shallow.

[Zephyr]

The nomenclature is indeed problematic, no matter which way you slice it. For the broad strokes I tend to divy things up as such:

1. You've got the original run of the early 90's spearheaded by Naka, Yasuhara, and Ohshima. The original combination of creative juices that codified the kind of game that Sonic is exists solely in this first era (only with Christian Whitehead and others from the hacking scene entering the fray have they finally been successfully emulated).

2. You've got the early/mid 00's run with Iizuka as the director and Naka merely producing. This second era is characterized by an abandonment of that kind of game, replacing it with something with much less polish and substance, even at its best (the two Adventure games). At its worst, we get ringers like Shadow the Hedgehog.

3. You've got the more contemporary cornucopia of Storybook games, Boost games, and Wisp games, largely (but not entirely) characterized by Kishimoto's presence with Iizuka producing now. This era feels a lot more experimental. At this era's best, we get things like Unleashed, Colors, and Generations, and at its worst we get gems like Lost World and Forces.

Incidentally, this is largely in-line with how Generations slices things up.

Sonic 06 doesn't really neatly fit into either the second or third era, serving instead to bridge the gap between them (likewise, things like NiGHTS and Sonic Jam bridge the gap between the first and second, but that's relatively unimportant). Nonetheless, it's nigh-unanimously considered the series' absolute rock bottom. I don't think it's much of an issue, because both the second and third runs here share a fundamental problem: they've failed to meet the level of polish and substance that their ultimate progenitor set as the standard, and have yet to fully realize the creation of a complete and distinct and worthwhile alternative.

With the Adventure games, what I'd argue to be the second era's peak, the highest praises I can sing for them are the ways in which they successfully translate the nuances of the classic games into the third dimension. Unfortunately, said praises are faint, because the physics weren't completely translated, the geometric style of level design wasn't really bothered with, and linearity and automation have become absurd bandaids. With the Boost games, what I'd argue to be the third era's peak, their praises are for their creation of a more distinct style of game. Specifically, the potential for a damn fine racing game is there. Unfortunately, again, the praise is faint, because they're still committed to partially existing as platformers, and the physics for even basic platforming as horrendously awkward.

In both cases, they've yet to fully come into their own. Even the best outings from both are on the whole mediocre. This mediocrity has, in many mainstream circles, for the longest time bred the incredible revisionist history that Sonic was always this way, that the original four genesis games didn't have a distinct, nuanced, polished creative identity as platformers (heavily momentum based, where speed is the result of skillful navigation of geometrically angled and curved levels). In other words, the "Sonic was never good" shtick.

Now, games like Adventure 1 and Adventure 2, I'd argue are incredibly mediocre (and I've got nothing but immense love and nostalgia for both). Games like Heroes, Shadow, and Sonic 06, on the other hand, make them look like fucking masterpieces. Games like Unleashed and Generations, likewise, I'd argue are ultimately mediocre (and, again, I love both games). Games like Lost World and Forces, though, again, make them seem like masterclass examples of game design. The praise that the Adventure games and Unleashed receive are mostly the result of a long term lowering of standards.

A lot of people love these games for non-gameplay reasons, such as story, music, visuals, and the like, but these are all absolutely secondary and tertiary in importance for a video game, where the gameplay is the defining component of the medium itself. I'm sure you love the gameplay of a lot of these games I'm calling mediocre, and thus will disagree with a lot of my premises here, but I hope you at least understand the broader point I'm trying to make.

[ABED]

I prefer a show that feels as if it moves at the speed a TV show should

That's incredibly vague given that each story should have its own pacing. There's not some platonic ideal about pacing nor do standards matter. It's up for each individual to decide.

You think it's a disservice that I think the manga moves to quick? Fine, but I do. Instead of feeling these moments, most of it feels like quick reveals or twists. I didn't feel Kuririn's deaths or Piccolo's. Goku turning SSJ didn't have quite the same effect either. There isn't the mood and atmosphere. And at the end of the day, that's what I'm looking for in any story - to FEEL something.

would say changing the way it's consumed

Not sure what you mean by this.

[Shaddy]

That's incredibly vague given that each story should have its own pacing. There's not some platonic ideal about pacing nor do standards matter. It's up for each individual to decide.

Maybe what I think it should be is vague. What isn't vague is that the way it is is what I think it shouldn't be. I've never tried to speak for anyone but myself here, and myself says the pacing fucking sucks.

You think it's a disservice that I think the manga moves to quick? Fine, but I do. Instead of feeling these moments, most of it feels like quick reveals or twists. I didn't feel Kuririn's deaths or Piccolo's. Goku turning SSJ didn't have quite the same effect either. There isn't the mood and atmosphere. And at the end of the day, that's what I'm looking for in any story - to FEEL something.

Yeah, and what I feel in the anime is bored. You can talk all you want about why you prefer the slower anime, it's not going to change me. I don't know why we keep going through this.

Not sure what you mean by this.

I mean for me, it has to be changed to be enjoyed. I cannot in good faith recommend the original version of most Dragon Ball shows, and even a cut up version has problems.

On the Sonic note, my only point was that it's wrong to suggest that new games are definitively worse than ones from a decade ago. I understand the frustration and problems with the new games, even agree with much of it, but the idea that something like Lost World is worse than the trio-de-trash of Shadow, 06 and Secret Rings is just laughable to me. I don't blame anyone for losing confidence with Sonic Team, or even thinking a game like Forces or Lost World isn't very good, but I'm not going to act like they're worse than the actual worst game in the series to do it. The current quality in the series is completely inconsistent and that's a problem, but I'd say calling it consistently bad is just fodder for making people miss out on legitimately fun games.

Lost World 3DS is rock-bottom tier though, I'll never deny that. Worse than Rise of Lyric or Heroes or any of that.

[ABED]

If it's all about the way you view the pacing, fine. But several of your posts have been about modern standards and whether DB would be popular if it came out today, which is not your view on pacing as much as you speaking for others.

To bottom line it, you wouldn't recommend any of the anime. Your "entertainment order" is just the manga starting from the beginning?

[sintzu]

Several of your posts have been about modern standards and whether DB would be popular if it came out today.

I think it's hard to say how popular it would be as DB is what shaped the industry to what it is now. Without DB we'd have a very differnet industry that could be worse off than it is and DB would end up being more popular than it was if it aired in this "what if" non DB influenced industry.

[Shaddy]

If it's all about the way you view the pacing, fine. But several of your posts have been about modern standards and whether DB would be popular if it came out today, which is not your view on pacing as much as you speaking for others.

To bottom line it, you wouldn't recommend any of the anime. Your "entertainment order" is just the manga starting from the beginning?

No, because Recut and Kai are tolerable, just not as good. My only point with the pacing is that it's outdated. It hasn't aged well, and that's the reason things like Kai and Recut exist. They help to modernize the show, and while my personal feelings on them are that it's still not as brisk a pace as I like or that stands up with the newer anime I'm used to, it's still the best way to watch the show. Television and manga are different forms of entertainment, one version of a tv show compared to another isn't.

[ABED]

Then your answer is DB then Kai?

[Shaddy]

Then your answer is DB then Kai?

Iamthemilkman's Dragon Ball Recut, DB Kai, then BoG, RoF, and starting at episode 28 of Super would be the way I'd recommend

[ABED]

Got it, shorter is better.