Death Battle: Goku vs Superman 2

[Nightmare Wheel]

I will admit that there were some things I could have worded better. However, I still maintain that taking a broad approach to a character like Superman is not a good idea. Superman has a massive amount of continuities and by trying to combine they are going to have to choose specific continuities to take into account. In that case you have to ask what makes any continuity more valid than another. Just as an example, why does something from the animated Superman vs The Elite movie count when say, that TV series I mentioned,Lois & Clark: The New Superman Adventurrs, is ignored? It can come off as simply arbitraily selecting whatever continuity they want to count as valid.

[Kamiccolo9]

I will admit that there were some things I could have worded better. However, I still maintain that taking a broad approach to a character like Superman is not a good idea. Superman has a massive amount of continuities and by trying to combine they are going to have to choose specific continuities to take into account. In that case you have to ask what makes any continuity more valid than another. Just as an example, why does something from the animated Superman vs The Elite movie count when say, that TV series I mentioned,Lois & Clark: The New Superman Adventurrs, is ignored? It can come off as simply arbitraily selecting whatever continuity they want to count as valid.

To be fair, you could apply the same to Goku.

I mean, which is more valid: Godku from BoG, or Godku from Super?

[Nightmare Wheel]

I will admit that there were some things I could have worded better. However, I still maintain that taking a broad approach to a character like Superman is not a good idea. Superman has a massive amount of continuities and by trying to combine they are going to have to choose specific continuities to take into account. In that case you have to ask what makes any continuity more valid than another. Just as an example, why does something from the animated Superman vs The Elite movie count when say, that TV series I mentioned,Lois & Clark: The New Superman Adventurrs, is ignored? It can come off as simply arbitraily selecting whatever continuity they want to count as valid.

To be fair, you could apply the same to Goku.

I mean, which is more valid: Godku from BoG, or Godku from Super?

You're certainly not wrong. This is just my personal preference, but I'm fine with them selecting any version, so long as they stick to it and don't try to blend multiple, potentially contradictory, versions together.

[rereboy]

I will admit that there were some things I could have worded better. However, I still maintain that taking a broad approach to a character like Superman is not a good idea. Superman has a massive amount of continuities and by trying to combine they are going to have to choose specific continuities to take into account. In that case you have to ask what makes any continuity more valid than another. Just as an example, why does something from the animated Superman vs The Elite movie count when say, that TV series I mentioned,Lois & Clark: The New Superman Adventurrs, is ignored? It can come off as simply arbitraily selecting whatever continuity they want to count as valid.

To be fair, you could apply the same to Goku.

I mean, which is more valid: Godku from BoG, or Godku from Super?

You're certainly not wrong. This is just my personal preference, but I'm fine with them selecting any version, so long as they stick to it and don't try to blend multiple, potentially contradictory, versions together.

They already have "contradictory" versions regarding Goku by having him be an adult and still able to use SSJ4, which never happened in GT since he was always confined to a child form that made him weaker... That's what happens when we are using a combination of versions, we look at their "best" from those versions.

[Polyphase Avatron]

Honestly Death Battle's methodology is nonsense. Everyone I know agrees on that, no matter who they think would win.

[miguelnuva1]

Dearh Battle didn't need pre crisis Superman feats when their Superman is already more haxed then pre crisis.

[ssjjanemba]

I bet we're gonna get another Superman vs Goku battle thanks to the new feats in DBS.

[Polyphase Avatron]

Please, no more battle videos. Let it die already. Or at least have Goku fight someone else for a change.

[rereboy]

Honestly Death Battle's methodology is nonsense. Everyone I know agrees on that, no matter who they think would win.

Not really. It's hard to agree on some of the finer points, like calculating the snake road length based on its scales and whatnot, but the gist of what they are trying to say is perfectly acceptable.

[Polyphase Avatron]

So mixing and matching stuff from different canonicities, as well as the whole "Superman is unbeatable to anyone" shtick, makes sense to you?

[Mewzard]

So mixing and matching stuff from different canonicities, as well as the whole "Superman is unbeatable to anyone" shtick, makes sense to you?

He's not unbeatable to anyone, and they were always arguing potential, that Superman continuously gets stronger (bar reboots). In the Death Battles we've had with the feats available (ignoring potential), I felt like our modern Superman had the edge. Superman's just shown feats of raw strength, speed, and endurance that Goku never has, and that's not even counting his various abilities.

Not sure how to take punches that destroy more the further they get from Super, but hey. If Super Goku beats Superman, then it's the Superman fans turn to complain, and we'll get Silver Age Superman or something out. There's no definitive end to this argument because there's always another new or old feat or version of a character to argue with.

I've been on the internet for many many years, and the Goku vs Superman battles have been here for a long time too. It just doesn't end, even beyond a decade.

[Nightmare Wheel]

Superman isn't unbeatable to anyone, but Death Battle seems to have that mentality. Not because he beat Goku or anything. They actually made this video on who could beat Superman where they basically answered with nobody.
https://youtu.be/4uGSP0t0osw

[Kamiccolo9]

So mixing and matching stuff from different canonicities, as well as the whole "Superman is unbeatable to anyone" shtick, makes sense to you?

"Canonicities" in DC are a totally different concept than in Dragon Ball. And the word you are looking for is "continuities."

I can't speak for the New 52 stuff. But Post-Crisis stuff didn't render the Pre-Crisis stuff "non-canon." It's an in-universe "merging" of continuities, not an out of universe retcon or "reboot." Pre-Crisis Superman wasn't rendered "non-canon," he was "folded into" the new Post-Crisis Superman as a result of the different Earths being merged at the conclusion of Crisis on Infinite Earths.

Unlike Dragon Ball, DC has a legitimate structured Multiverse, with each component universe being as "canon" as the next one. Pre-Crisis events were mentioned all the time Post-Crisis, with multiple characters surviving the merger, like Psycho Pirate and Power Girl. And then, Infinite Crisis had the Earth-2 Superman, Earth-3 Luthor, and Superboy Prime bust out of their paradise/prison they'd been in since the Crisis, and start messing with the Multiverse again. All the Pre-Crisis stuff still "happened," but very few people in-universe remembered it.

And by Pre-Crisis, I'm referring to Silver Age Superman, by the way. Golden Age Superman (Earth-2), has appeared a few times in recent years; he was a minor antagonist for the first part of Infinite Crisis before getting killed by Superboy Prime, and he was resurrected as a zombie thing in Blackest Night.

Incidentally, in basically every supplemental thing that DC ever put out that detailed the powers of the various Supermen, they just copy/pasted Post-Crisis Supes' powerset into most of the other ones. DC, at least, seems to consider the various Supermen equal, unless specifically said otherwise, like with Earth-2, Prime, and the One Millions. Which makes sense, as they are all biologically the same being.

Again, this all only concerns Post-Crisis. I'm not familiar with the New 52 stuff, so it may have been totally revamped since then. I don't remember if the first Death Battle dealt with the New 52 stuff, though. And again, they used the high feats from a composite Goku as well, as they threw in GT stuff and feats from the movies (specifically Movie 7; can't remember if they used anything else.)

[rereboy]

So mixing and matching stuff from different canonicities, as well as the whole "Superman is unbeatable to anyone" shtick, makes sense to you?

Like I said, there are two ways to approach the issue: we either take just one very particular version of that character and compare it, or we take the character as a whole, not just one version, and compare the best of that character.

Deathbattle did the second approach which, let's be honest, is the approach that pretty much EVERYONE wants. People don't usually want "Superman of the issue 452" against "Buu arc Goku". They don't want to consider different versions or different points in time, they want an overall approach, they want Superman VS Goku, period, which simply implies more than just one very particular version or time period. Personally, I don't think it's the most logical approach but it is the approach that people seem to want otherwise everyone would be more concerned in clarifying just which Superman and which Goku they wanted to compare.

What's more, Deathbattle didn't just do it regarding Superman, they did it regarding Goku also, which is why in the battle he is an adult and yet he can use SSJ4, which never happened in GT, thus showing a mix of versions/time periods.

You are merely criticizing their approach when it's the approach that people seem to want, while forgetting that it's a reasonable approach since the same approach was used for Goku.

As for Superman being "unbeatable", that particular reason is an out-of-universe reason that they added to their arguments AFTER they had presented numerous in-universe arguments for why they think Superman would win, and what they said regarding that point is certainly very relevant. In short, you would have a point if that was their only argument. It wasn't.

[dario03]

So mixing and matching stuff from different canonicities, as well as the whole "Superman is unbeatable to anyone" shtick, makes sense to you?

He's not unbeatable to anyone, and they were always arguing potential, that Superman continuously gets stronger (bar reboots). In the Death Battles we've had with the feats available (ignoring potential), I felt like our modern Superman had the edge. Superman's just shown feats of raw strength, speed, and endurance that Goku never has, and that's not even counting his various abilities.

Not sure how to take punches that destroy more the further they get from Super, but hey. If Super Goku beats Superman, then it's the Superman fans turn to complain, and we'll get Silver Age Superman or something out. There's no definitive end to this argument because there's always another new or old feat or version of a character to argue with.

I've been on the internet for many many years, and the Goku vs Superman battles have been here for a long time too. It just doesn't end, even beyond a decade.

That's the big issue I have with another fight. A lot of people seem to want the fight now that Goku has that feat but how would you even figure out the power of that feat? Impressive sure, but what is the power at impact? How far out were planets being destroyed? Did it actually travel to the Kaioshin realm or was that just them sensing it (I haven't seen the last 2 episodes but it didn't seem to cause damage to the Kaioshin planet in episode 12).

[Polyphase Avatron]

What Death Battle doesn't seem to get is that there are characters in the DC universe that can (and have) smacked around Superman as easily as Beerus could smack around Pilaf, or even more so. Try asking them who would win, Superman or any one of the following:

The Spectre
Lucifer Morningstar
Michael Demiurgos
The Presence
The Primal Monitor
Dream/Destiny/Death/Desire/Despair/Destruction/Delirium of the Endless
God form Swamp Thing
The Word
The Great Evil Beast
The Source
The Infinite Man
The Time Trapper
Zero Hour Parallax (who notably KO'd Superman with a single casual punch BTW)
Ion
Anti-Life Entity
Synnar
The Phantom Stranger
Mr. Mxyzptlk (no, making him say his name backwards doesn't count, that's just a game he plays. I mean if he was actually serious and out for blood)
Bat-Mite
Nekron
Rama Kushna
Rao (this is the god the Kryptonians worship in fact)

If they say he can win or even has a chance, you just know they don't read the comics.

Even back in the Silver Age, when Superman was at his most consistently ridiculous, there were other heroes on Earth alone that he knew he had no chance of beating, i.e. Dr. Fate.

[pacz360]

What Death Battle doesn't seem to get is that there are characters in the DC universe that can (and have) smacked around Superman as easily as Beerus could smack around Pilaf, or even more so. Try asking them who would win, Superman or any one of the following:

The Spectre
Lucifer Morningstar
Michael Demiurgos
The Presence
The Primal Monitor
Dream/Destiny/Death/Desire/Despair/Destruction/Delirium of the Endless
God form Swamp Thing
The Word
The Great Evil Beast
The Source
The Infinite Man
The Time Trapper
Zero Hour Parallax (who notably KO'd Superman with a single casual punch BTW)
Ion
Anti-Life Entity
Synnar
The Phantom Stranger
Mr. Mxyzptlk (no, making him say his name backwards doesn't count, that's just a game he plays. I mean if he was actually serious and out for blood)
Bat-Mite
Nekron
Rama Kushna
Rao (this is the god the Kryptonians worship in fact)

If they say he can win or even has a chance, you just know they don't read the comics.

Even back in the Silver Age, when Superman was at his most consistently ridiculous, there were other heroes on Earth alone that he knew he had no chance of beating, i.e. Dr. Fate.

Don't forget darkseid,zoom,doomsday,the flash, imperiex,the guardians, larfreeze,ion,zeus,superboy prime,sodam yat,alan scott, anti monitor,mandrakk,monarch,fernus,etc but yeah supes has limits and can/been beaten before.

[Dbzk1999]

So mixing and matching stuff from different canonicities, as well as the whole "Superman is unbeatable to anyone" shtick, makes sense to you?

He's not unbeatable to anyone, and they were always arguing potential, that Superman continuously gets stronger (bar reboots). In the Death Battles we've had with the feats available (ignoring potential), I felt like our modern Superman had the edge. Superman's just shown feats of raw strength, speed, and endurance that Goku never has, and that's not even counting his various abilities.

Not sure how to take punches that destroy more the further they get from Super, but hey. If Super Goku beats Superman, then it's the Superman fans turn to complain, and we'll get Silver Age Superman or something out. There's no definitive end to this argument because there's always another new or old feat or version of a character to argue with.

I've been on the internet for many many years, and the Goku vs Superman battles have been here for a long time too. It just doesn't end, even beyond a decade.

That's the big issue I have with another fight. A lot of people seem to want the fight now that Goku has that feat but how would you even figure out the power of that feat? Impressive sure, but what is the power at impact? How far out were planets being destroyed? Did it actually travel to the Kaioshin realm or was that just them sensing it (I haven't seen the last 2 episodes but it didn't seem to cause damage to the Kaioshin planet in episode 12).

You flat out see the shockwaves in the realm

[dario03]

He's not unbeatable to anyone, and they were always arguing potential, that Superman continuously gets stronger (bar reboots). In the Death Battles we've had with the feats available (ignoring potential), I felt like our modern Superman had the edge. Superman's just shown feats of raw strength, speed, and endurance that Goku never has, and that's not even counting his various abilities.

Not sure how to take punches that destroy more the further they get from Super, but hey. If Super Goku beats Superman, then it's the Superman fans turn to complain, and we'll get Silver Age Superman or something out. There's no definitive end to this argument because there's always another new or old feat or version of a character to argue with.

I've been on the internet for many many years, and the Goku vs Superman battles have been here for a long time too. It just doesn't end, even beyond a decade.

That's the big issue I have with another fight. A lot of people seem to want the fight now that Goku has that feat but how would you even figure out the power of that feat? Impressive sure, but what is the power at impact? How far out were planets being destroyed? Did it actually travel to the Kaioshin realm or was that just them sensing it (I haven't seen the last 2 episodes but it didn't seem to cause damage to the Kaioshin planet in episode 12).

You flat out see the shockwaves in the realm

Yeah, and in episode 12 it does almost nothing even though the realm is really far away. So was that just a visual representation of them sensing it? Does traveling between realms weaken it? Does it get stronger and then get weaker the further it travels? etc, etc...

[Polyphase Avatron]

Yeah, and in episode 12 it does almost nothing even though the realm is really far away. So was that just a visual representation of them sensing it? Does traveling between realms weaken it? Does it get stronger and then get weaker the further it travels? etc, etc...

I gave up trying to make sense of it halfway through episode 13. Basically the weird shockwaves do whatever the plot needs them to do, nothing more and nothing less. This whole story arc is filled with stuff that doesn't make sense, like the Kaioshins being able to see the fight from their planet too (not via ESP or anything, but they actually look in the sky and see it happening, despite being in a separate dimension). Go figure.