miguelnuva1 wrote:It doesn't matter because once again Death Battle Superman is haxed even over his silver age self. Death Battle stated that Superman has no limits and is as strong as he needs to be to win which is wrong.
True.
Green Latern was shown to put him down, Flash and Wonder Woman can get the better of him and others such as Darkseid and Doomsday can beat him and the difference between Goku losing to Raditz which he didn't really lose and Superman stalemating Doomsday is that Superman is more or less always at a set power depending on what Superman your using while Goku is constantly improving.
False. In all of his comic incarnations, Superman would constantly become stronger over the years - in his first appearance in 1938 he couldn't even fly, and the old "more powerful than a locomotive" speech basically described the extent of his powers. 10 years later he was moving mountains, ten years after that he was moving planets and galaxies and traveling through time at will. That's one of the reasons they had to reboot the DC universe, because it was getting too ridiculous. Even in the Post-Crisis era, it was stated that his his constant absorption of solar energy was causing his powers to continually increase - if you compare, say, the Superman from 1990 to the one from 2000, the latter would win very very easily every time. In fact the only reason Doomsday was able to keep up with him after their first fight was because Doomsday's power was growing too (in fact, in a very explicit way - he gained the ability to near-instantly adapt to counter any abilities his opponents had, but even despite that, Superman was still able to beat him time after time). In the New 52, he again started close to the Golden Age power levels (no flight, worried about tank shells and such) but a few years later he was flying faster than light, bench-pressing the Earth, and flying through black holes.
The notion that Superman doesn't get stronger over time is pretty much blatantly false.
Also that statement that Goku can break any limit vs Superman with no limit back off Toriyama saying saiyans grow stronger as they fight means that Goku and Superman should be able to simply match each other no matter what they do.
True, if you take such statements as literal facts like ScrewAttack does.
Based off Super I would say SSG Goku could handle any Superman that isn't Silver age, Prime one million, all star, Cosmic armor or Sword of Superman.
Well there are many more versions, like Tangent, Red Son, Kingdom Come, and a bunch of much weirder ones...
I don't want to see a round 3 because while I don't mind the results of the first two round it would actually make me upset this time to see Death Battle nerf Goku and wank Superman when one has universe busting feats and the other's universe busting feats are being ignored.
Well there are many variables here... Post-Crisis (Pre-New 52) Superman actually has a bunch of rather ridiculous feats like the time he defeated Dominus, who had enslaved Kismet (the essence of the DC universe, similar to Marvel's Eternity) and absorbed her power. Most people tend not to mention those because they're rather ridiculous.
New 52/Post crisis can not handle Goku and it is even worse since it is confirmed Post Crisis is not even the same character as New 52 at this point.
They were never stated or implied to be the same character. ScrewAttack just used a composite version of them for no real reason. One of the reasons why their arguments are bad.
Finally as for the infinity feat and the eternity feat, those feats have to be ingored for several reasons
-Superman has a calculated strength not infinite
-Infinite can't be halved so Shazam helping already throws a problem into the equation
- Their are rare characters who can out power Superman which means he can't have infinite strength.
- Wonder Woman is weaker than Superman yet she help him pick up eternity
There is a difference between a feat that doesn't make sense and a feat that not only doesn't make sense but is an Outlier because it is countered on a regular basis.
Now here's where I come to my major objection to your post. While I agree taking those feats as standard/acceptable is a terrible idea (I elaborated this in the past), you are showing a double standard here. Goku and Beerus' feat in Super could just as equally be considered 'an outlier' since it only happened that one time and the rest of their fight didn't display any such effects (even Elder Kaioshin didn't attempt to give an explanation for this). If you want to say that Superman's power can't be infinite because of all the times he's done something less than infinite, you have to say the same thing about Goku and threatening the universe.
Of course we can get into various rationalizations here, for both sides - one could say that Goku was cancelling out the attacks so the universe was not in danger (although he was no longer doing this during the later parts of the fight), then someone could point out that that makes no more logical sense than Superman lifting infinity (you argue that, due to the laws of math, dividing infinity in half won't do anything to it, and someone could just as easily argue that, due to the laws of math, countering a certain amount of force with an equal amount will not make both forces disappear, but rather add them together and double the energy released).
People could also make excuses for Superman, such as him having mental blocks that are very difficult for him to release, so when he's overpowered by something less than infinite, it just means that he was subconsciously holding back. The other person might counter by saying that if this supposed 'infinite strength' is so hard to release, then he wouldn't necessarily be able to do so in this fight either. I mentioned the Dominus thing before - lots of people discount it (and I would agree with them) because Superman used a plot-device power (Torquasmvo) that makes very little sense, and the whole scenario seemed rather contrived.
People could also argue that since the DB universe is much smaller than the RL or DC universes, the feat is much less impressive than a 'universal' feat on those scales. AFAIK the jury is still out on the actual size of the DB universe, but I'm merely pointing out that it's an argument that can be made. Also, since we can come up with arguments for why the infinity feats are not valid, someone could easily do the same for Goku vs. Beerus. After all, the only things we actually saw being destroyed were some asteroids and one planet, and the Kaioh and Kaioshin planets, though the waves passed through them, were not shaking or damaged in any way. So one could argue that Elder Kaioshin was simply wrong about and overestimating the potential threat, and the entire universe was never actually in danger. Some could call this 'downplaying', but it's no different than saying the clear statements of Superman lifting infinity were wrong/invalid. There was also a comic I once saw where, according to some scientist who was observing something, Superman 'saved the omniverse from collapsing' by vibrating two dimensional planes apart or something. You could just as easily say the guy who made that claim had no idea what he was talking about, and Superman did no such thing.
tl;dr - the issue is complex, and while I personally find some feats to be more credible than others (I've already explained why I don't buy the whole 'lifting infinity' thing), my major issue is that many people show a double standard by claiming that a feat that X character did is nonsense, invalid, and contradicted, while a feat that Y character did (even if there are just as many possible arguments against it), is 100% valid and acceptable as the standard power of that character. Especially when you're relying on one incident only and coming up with reasons to dismiss multiple incidents from the other side.
As for who would actually win - who knows? New 52 doesn't seem to have done much to prove himself stronger than SSJG Goku, unless I either missed something or you count defeating Vyndktvx (which is another of those feats that makes very little sense and had extenuating circumstances, so I don't really count it), so I feel fairly comfortable saying Goku would win there. Post-Crisis has enough appearances and ridiculous feats though that I'm not comfortable saying Goku could defeat him, or the other way around for that instance. Silver Age is just ridiculous, though. He could fly back in time and knock Goku's space pod into the sun before it even landed on Earth if he wanted to...
