"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[Khin]

I think Kai-Kai is a special ability that the Kaioshin have (we saw all Kaioshin in the anime having the ability), but since Shin’s peers died when he was young, he never got the chance to learn it. So after the Elder Kaioshin was released, he thought him the ability.

Maybe Kibito have it for some reason, like it’s his special natural ability or something (which the original manga implies). It’s probably one of the reason why he was the one chosen to serve Shin.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

I think Kai-Kai is a special ability that the Kaioshin have (we saw all Kaioshin in the anime having the ability), but since Shin’s peers died when he was young, he never got the chance to learn it. So after the Elder Kaioshin was released, he thought him the ability.

Maybe Kibito have it for some reason, like it’s his special natural ability or something (which the original manga implies). It’s probably one of the reason why he was the one chosen to serve Shin.

I can live with that.

[mawilex]

Just found out Toyotaro drew a French Goku to celebrate DBS manga release in France and I think that's pretty awesome from him:
[spoiler]
https://twitter.com/DBZcom/status/847369982753165312[/spoiler]
French fans are lucky.

I didn't like the part where he says: "I feel so proud when I'm picturing my manga in the bookstores of such a beautiful country", without giving any credit to Toriyama, as if he single-handedly came up with the main story elements. A bit pretentious I feel.

I really love the French Goku, though.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

Just found out Toyotaro drew a French Goku to celebrate DBS manga release in France and I think that's pretty awesome from him:
[spoiler]
https://twitter.com/DBZcom/status/847369982753165312[/spoiler]
French fans are lucky.

I didn't like the part where he says: "I feel so proud when I'm picturing my manga in the bookstores of such a beautiful country", without giving any credit to Toriyama, as if he single-handedly came up with the main story elements. A bit pretentious I feel.

I really love the French Goku, though.

It is his manga, though. He's the one who draws and writes the dialogue. All Toriyama does is help to formulate the storyboards. Saying he can't take ownership of a manga that he does 90% of the work for is like saying you can't give an animator credit for their cuts because someone else created the character models, backgrounds, and context for the scene.

[Noah]

What I'm saying is how do you know it was solely because of kibito? How do you know he didn't have it all along and just made kibito do it because it wastes energy ?

Tell me when Shin used a teleport technque in the original manga, cause I'm only remember Kibito doing stuff, but whatever

[Pluto]

Woooh, Red Vegeta...i wasnt expecting that a bit.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

Just realized that I still haven't read the latest chapter translated. Should I just wait for Viz? That's rhetorical, I'm gonna wait for Viz.

Even with the manga, I'm at such a low that I'd rather just wait...

Here's to hoping for a tolerable next chapter!

[mawilex]

Just found out Toyotaro drew a French Goku to celebrate DBS manga release in France and I think that's pretty awesome from him:
[spoiler]
https://twitter.com/DBZcom/status/847369982753165312[/spoiler]
French fans are lucky.

I didn't like the part where he says: "I feel so proud when I'm picturing my manga in the bookstores of such a beautiful country", without giving any credit to Toriyama, as if he single-handedly came up with the main story elements. A bit pretentious I feel.

I really love the French Goku, though.

It is his manga, though. He's the one who draws and writes the dialogue. All Toriyama does is help to formulate the storyboards. Saying he can't take ownership of a manga that he does 90% of the work for is like saying you can't give an animator credit for their cuts because someone else created the character models, backgrounds, and context for the scene.

Saying that you can take ownership of something of which you did "90% of the job" (a percentage clearly based on your biased assumptions, and not actual facts) is, still, again, pretentious and disrespectful towards the other people who worked on the other "10%".

That analogy you were trying to make doesn't work at all, here. Yes, an animator's job is to animate things. When they animate a scene, they're doing their job. So it's only natural they'd be given 100% full credit for doing their job. A manga, though, is not just about drawing panels and writing dialogues, that's just 50% of the job. You need to write the story of said manga and design the characters of your story before you can actually start sketching the panels, and that's definitely not just "10%" of the job. It's 50% too. If you don't have the story and the concept-designs, there's nothing to draw and there is no manga.

Writing an outline, as basic as it might be, is in no way an easy task. You're creating the main structure of the story from scratch, and figuring out how the main plot points are going to be tied together. This is doing 90% of the job within the first 50% of the main job. When someone else comes in and fills in some blanks here and there, that's doing 10% of the job within the same 50% of the main job.

When you say "that's my manga", it's 100%. That means you've taken care of everything, from the story & character-designs, to the dialogues & the art. Toyotaro didn't do all that. If he did, then why even bother with writing: "Story: Akira Toriyama" and "Draw: Toyotaro", on the 1st cover of the manga? Why not just put "by Toyotaro", and basta? "90%" or not, Toriyama is still credited as the author of the manga, and Toyotaro as the artist. The latter needs to learn his place and respect the former's presence, the same way the former is respecting the latter's presence by not claiming that it's "his" manga just because he's using the 10% left from his 100% from which he used 90% on the first big 50% of the main job, supervising the other 50% of the main job, which is the drawing part / artistic part of the manga.

It's neither 90\10 nor 10/90, it's 90\10 within the first half, and 10/90 within the second half, so in the end: it's 50|50. One is providing character-designs and writes the outline, the other is filling in the blanks and writes the dialogues. One is drawing the panels, the other is supervising them. So it's not Toyotaro's manga, it's his & Toriyama's manga.

[mute_proxy]

So what you're saying is when Toriyama said it's "his manga" he was being disrespectful, because he also had assistants to fill in parts and editors and supervisors to help with the direction of the manga?

The same goes with mangas like OPM, the printed version IS Murata's version, even though ONE is responsible for the story.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

Saying that you can take ownership of something of which you did "90% of the job" (a percentage clearly based on your biased assumptions, and not actual facts) is, still, again, pretentious and disrespectful towards the other people who worked on the other "10%".

Do you really think that I was being literal? "Never attribute to malice what can be attributed to stupidity ignorance" is how the saying goes, I believe. I'll just assume that's your way of padding this out. I do it all the time, so no foul.

That analogy you were trying to make doesn't work at all, here. Yes, an animator's job is to animate things. When they animate a scene, they're doing their job. So it's only natural they'd be given 100% full credit for doing their job. A manga, though, is not just about drawing panels and writing dialogues, that's just 50% of the job. You need to write the story of said manga and design the characters of your story before you can actually start sketching the panels, and that's definitely not just "10%" of the job. It's 50% too. If you don't have the story and the concept-designs, there's nothing to draw and there is no manga.

Writing an outline, as basic as it might be, is in no way an easy task. You're creating the main structure of the story from scratch, and figuring out how the main plot points are going to be tied together. This is doing 90% of the job within the first 50% of the main job. When someone else comes in and fills in some blanks here and there, that's doing 10% of the job within the same 50% of the main job.

No comparison is going to be 100% congruent, that's an absurd expectation on your part. The analogy works just fine, but if you don't like it, I'm sure you're smart enough to understand the point what with your semi-lengthy response. I don't know what the point of the rest of this section is, just explaining the general necessities for making this manga? Also, I notice you criticizing my somewhat figurative use of numbers, but you seem to be applying them literally. You're essentially cluttering your own response with the nonsense that you seem to have thought I was doing. Lastly, you know that character designs are literally a part of that analogy I just made, right? None of this response works.

Let's change it up though, I'm good with basic stuff. Let's say I want to open a restaurant where I can serve people all of the delicious recipes that my family has acquired over the years. I buy the land, construct the building myself, and run the place. Does the entire family own part of that restaurant just because they contribute the recipes? Do the employees own the restaurant just because they help things move along? Obviously not.

Just an addendum: Writing stories isn't that hard, especially those of the caliber we've been getting. I'm more practiced in informative writing, but I'm fairly sure that if I gave myself a couple of weeks, I could come up with better than what's being made now. You're (intentionally, I assume) making this whole thing seem a lot more complex than it actually is by stretching out your post.

When you say "that's my manga", it's 100%. That means you've taken care of everything.

That's not what it means when talking about anything else. I don't know where this misguided, bastardized version of ownership comes from.

[Doctor.]

If you share a dorm do you have to say "My and x's dorm" every time in normal conversation? Isn't it much easier, and just as correct, to say "My dorm"? Toyotaro owns the manga, be it completely or a portion doesn't matter, he's allowed to use possessive determiners to refer to something he owns.

Also, figuring out concepts and plot points is the easiest part of writing a story. It's filling in the blanks, sequencing the events so they flow smoothly from one to another, that's the hard part. I don't particularly think Toyotaro does that job well, but he's still in-charge of the hardest part of the story development as well as the art on his own.

[Noah]

It's like people can't accept this manga has much less Toriyama involvement than they imagine, leading Toyotaro to acclaim it is his manga after all.

[mawilex]

Do you really think that I was being literal? "Never attribute to malice what can be attributed to stupidity ignorance" is how the saying goes, I believe. I'll just assume that's your way of padding this out. I do it all the time, so no foul.

It's your responsibility to make your message clearer, then, not mine to being able to decipher what was your "real" intent or the "hidden" meaning behind your words. I'm just reacting to what I'm reading. Besides, you said that it's okay to claim that something is your own creation if you did 90% = the vast majority of the work. How is this not supposed to be taken literally? Why shouldn't I? I'm not padding out anything here, I'm just reacting to something that I don't agree with, and giving a reason why. Stop taking your assumptions as facts, please.

No comparison is going to be 100% congruent, that's an absurd expectation on your part. The analogy works just fine, but if you don't like it, I'm sure you're smart enough to understand the point what with your semi-lengthy response. I don't know what the point of the rest of this section is, just explaining the general necessities for making this manga?

It works just fine between those two things you're comparing, don't worry about that. My problem with your analogy, though, is that one of those two things you're comparing is not a fact in this discussion, making that analogy totally irrelevant to begin with, hence why I said that "it doesn't work, here". Why do I think that it's a wrong fact? "The point of the rest of that section" was to explain why I'm thinking that way. Why did I feel like explaining the general necessities for making a manga? Because you said it's "Toyotaro's manga, since he takes care of the drawings and the dialogues." meaning that the only ingredients you think are needed for making a manga are drawing and writing dialogues, when it's actually not..

Also, I notice you criticizing my somewhat figurative use of numbers, but you seem to be applying them literally. You're essentially cluttering your own response with the nonsense that you seem to have thought I was doing.

Except I never criticised the fact that you used numbers, but your wrong usage of them. To use 90% to represent something that is worth 45%, is not a good example of figurative use of numbers.

Lastly, you know that character designs are literally a part of that analogy I just made, right?

And? I didn't bring up the fact that Toriyama creates the character-designs to say that it discredits Toyotaro's work, did I?

Let's change it up though, I'm good with basic stuff. Let's say I want to open a restaurant where I can serve people all of the delicious recipes that my family has acquired over the years. I buy the land, construct the building myself, and run the place. Does the entire family own part of that restaurant just because they contribute the recipes? Do the employees own the restaurant just because they help things move along? Obviously not.

Comparisons might not be 100% congruent, but if you want them to be regarded as somewhat valid, they should at least be close to that. First of all, the one who actually owns the restaurant here is Shueisha. We don't care about that type of ownership, here. We want to know what's the reason behind the restaurant's success.

It appears that Toriyama is a chef, he comes up with new recipes everyday (unlike the family). A chef doesn't do just that, though, they also make sure that the cooks made the food according to their instructions. But Toriyama doesn't do exactly that with his cooks, called "The Toyotaros", because they can make the food even better when adding their own touch. The food is ready. Toriyama checks if everything is in order, sees if The Toyotaros didn't go too far to the point where it's not the same recipe, then gives the green light for the server to deliver the food to the lucky customer. The customer eats the food. It's super delicious! They ask the server who's behind the creation of this delicious meal. What should he answer? He should say both The Toyotaros and Toriyama, because they both worked at making this meal a success. So they should both be given credit for what they did. Don't you think?

Writing stories isn't that hard, especially those of the caliber we've been getting. I'm more practiced in informative writing, but I'm fairly sure that if I gave myself a couple of weeks, I could come up with better than what's being made now.

If you didn't try yet, then you don't know what you're talking about. You're making another assumption and believes that it's a fact. Try to write a solid original story and then come back and share your experience with me. I might not be practiced in explanatory writing, but I've spent a great deal of my life with a mother who wrote several poems, short-stories and a novel in her career, so I've seen enough how hard it can be and how long it can take to write just a simple short-story. And you say that it might just take a couple of weeks, as if it was nothing. That is still working and dedicating time and putting effort into doing something.

You're (intentionally, I assume) making this whole thing seem a lot more complex than it actually is by stretching out your post.

Oh I wasn't stretching anything, dear, I was just giving arguments. It just so happens that I need to use a lot of words in order to formulate my thoughts correctly. You on the other hand, are just making assumptions after assumptions. So much for being practiced in informative writing. Don't accuse me of things you know nothing about. You are not living inside my head, are you? Know your place.

That's not what it means when talking about anything else. I don't know where this misguided, bastardized version of ownership comes from.

Then what does it mean? Give arguments to back up your claim.

It's like people can't accept this manga has much less Toriyama involvement than they imagine, leading Toyotaro to acclaim it is his manga after all.

Do you know how much I care about him being involved? Zero. I don't give a damn about that. What I give a damn about, is giving credit to people when they should be given credit.

DBAF is something which you could say is Toyotaro's manga because all the necessary ingredients for making that manga came from him. That's his creation. You can't just tell me it's the same situation with DBS, that's just absurd. Toriyama and Toyotaro are actively working together on this manga, this is fact, they are both credited as author and artist. You can't just deny that, mate.

If you share a dorm do you have to say "My and x's dorm" every time in normal conversation?

Why not? What's stopping you from doing that?

Isn't it much easier, and just as correct, to say "My dorm"?

It might be easier to say, but it's definitely not as correct. If you can say something correctly, you say it. That's a stupid excuse.

Toyotaro owns the manga, be it completely or a portion doesn't matter, he's allowed to use possessive determiners to refer to something he owns.

There are multiple possessive determiners, though, and each one should be used in its corresponding context. When you tell me "that's my child", I know that it's not literally just "your" child, it's you & your husband's/wife's child, but you don't have to tell me that because it's obvious. When there is the possibility that you could be owning something alone, then you have to be more precise. If you don't, then you are giving false information.

[Kanassa]

If you didn't try yet, then you don't know what you're talking about. You're making another assumption and believes that it's a fact. Try to write a solid original story and then come back and share your experience with me. I might not be practiced in explanatory writing, but I've spent a great deal of my life with a mother who wrote several poems, short-stories and a novel in her career, so I've seen enough how hard it can be and how long it can take to write just a simple short-story. And you say that it might just take a couple of weeks, as if it was nothing. That is still working and dedicating time and putting effort into doing something.

I believe Mule is referring to writing out an outline with plot points and the like, which he/she is completely right is saying. An outline is no arduous task, especially in this case, considering that with both the anime and manga presented to us, we can start to guess that Toriyama's outline was rather vague in many areas. The hard parts are the details that fill in the gaps between plot points the execution of said plot points, to which Toyo is the one that handles it for the Manga.

[Duo]

The amount of creativity and effort put into trying to tear Toyotaro down over nonsense is the defining feature of this thread.

[dbgtFO]

The amount of creativity and effort put into trying to tear Toyotaro down over nonsense is the defining feature of this thread.

You phrased that better than I would have
But yeah, it's getting a bit ridiculous, when a harmless statement like that all of a sudden means, he's disrespecting Toriyama and what not, Jesus, it's like beyond parody now!

[mawilex]

I believe Mule is referring to writing out an outline with plot points and the like.

Writing stories isn't that hard.

The amount of creativity and effort put into trying to tear Toyotaro down over nonsense is the defining feature of this thread.

Best. Argument. Ever. I think you convinced me to change my mind. Yeah. Toriyama doesn't do crap. 0% involvement.

One is rolling his eyes, others think their assumptions are 100% verified facts, another one antagonizes you because you have a different opinion than them, some don't seem to even bother with actually reading and trying to understand what you're actually talking about, some others don't have any arguments to add in a conversation but they think they'll look cool by making fun of those that can actually give arguments. Yeah, you're right, I'm putting too much effort. Too much effort into trying to sit and explain my point of view and to dare having a different opinion, because that has never been the spirit of a forum.

I'm out of here.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

Best. Argument. Ever. I think you convinced me to change my mind. Yeah. Toriyama doesn't do crap. 0% involvement.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/straw%20man

Yeah, you're right, I'm putting too much effort. Too much effort into trying to sit and explain my point of view and to dare having a different opinion, because that has never been the spirit of a forum.

I'm out of here.

This is more a case of you freaking out that people dare to disagree with you. No one cares that you have opinions. I don't really even care that you have insane, twisted ideas on what constitutes ownership, or that you put your ideas out in the open without expectation of detraction, which is against the spirit of conversation itself, forum be damned. Maybe you haven't been on the internet for long, so let me give you some advice. If you don't want critique, shut up. I for one am not in the business of catering to your ever-so fragile ego. That goes for every aspect of communication, but especially so online. If you feel you need to leave because of that, sorry to see you go, but maybe that's for the best.

[Kanassa]

Best. Argument. Ever. I think you convinced me to change my mind. Yeah. Toriyama doesn't do crap. 0% involvement.

I'd advise against getting so heated when you sit in your house of straw.

[Duo]

I'm out of here.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Anyway, I stopped in hoping this would be a good time of month to talk with people who actually like the manga. I think the addition of Gowasu's near-death (that opening page is striking with that image) adds a bit of welcome levity to the scenario. I know Black killed Gowasu in anime flashbacks, but I think it adds to this Gowasu's character development, being the only person who actually cares about Zamasu. Now he can sanely say "Yeah, fuck this guy."

Goku's SSG transformation panel is excellent. One of my favorites to date.

I'm also really fond of the page(s) where Vegeta dodges Goku Black's first blast. Excellent paneling, really brought some motion to the pages.