Toriyama's racial/ist character portrayals?

[jjgp1112]

I'm just gaonna drop out of this thread if some you people are misunderstanding things this much. All I can say is just look up why this stuff is sensitive to some.

It's a like an echo-chamber of confirmation bias in here.

Yeah, some of the post in here are well...extremely naive.

[Gaffer Tape]

How people perceive racism is like that quote about pornography: I can't define it, but I know it when I see it. To at least a certain degree it's subjective. It's personal. That's why you're never going to come to a consensus on whether or not *insert thing here* is racist, and why in this very thread, we've seen black forum members (not to mention everyone else), members of the constituency over which this entire debate is about, taking every single perceivable side of the issue. So I don't think it's fair for anyone to act like there's some objective threshold of acceptability.

[DBZAOTA482]

Mr. Popo isn't a human. He's a djinn, and he's literally black.

[TripleRach]

How people perceive racism is like that quote about pornography: I can't define it, but I know it when I see it. To at least a certain degree it's subjective. It's personal. That's why you're never going to come to a consensus on whether or not *insert thing here* is racist, and why in this very thread, we've seen black forum members (not to mention everyone else), members of the constituency over which this entire debate is about, taking every single perceivable side of the issue. So I don't think it's fair for anyone to act like there's some objective threshold of acceptability.

Well, sure, not everyone is going to agree on this.

But I take issue with comments that completely dismiss other viewpoints. Have some empathy, guys. Try to put yourself in someone else's shoes and see their perspective.

[Gaffer Tape]

Well, I kinda meant that as a catch-all to everyone, since both sides seem to be completely dismissing other viewpoints, although I can see how it would easily be interpreted to be one-sided.

[B]

Mr. Popo isn't a human. He's a djinn, and he's literally black.

I fully believe in understanding the proper context of a Japanese man in the '80s drawing his perception of black people, but this is a weak counter. It's like when lolicon enthusiasts are quick to yell "It's not a little girl! She's an 8,000-year-old demon!"

[Fionordequester]

I fully believe in understanding the proper context of a Japanese man in the '80s drawing his perception of black people, but this is a weak counter. It's like when lolicon enthusiasts are quick to yell "It's not a little girl! She's an 8,000-year-old demon!"

Heh. What is that, Disgaea?

And as for Popo, he LOOKS human enough (or at least, like a Dragon Ball human), and that's enough by my book. I mean, it wouldn't even be that bad, except for the fact that he literally speaks like a caveman in the Japanese version (unlike the FUNI version, even in Kai).

[Tzigi]

Just wanted to tell you something from an East-European perspective. Watching DB for the first time I haven't even considered Popo black (as in "Negroid" not as "drawn with black colour"). Actually for all I remember I have never ever made the connection between him and any racial-specific portrayal of a human being. He was just this anime/fantasy-specific atypically coloured magical being just as there are multicoloured atypical ponies in other popular animated series. By now I recognize the reuse of certain racial features in Popo but only because Kanzenshuu has shown it to me. I'd in all probability never find it on my own - perhaps because in Poland we don't see many black people. There aren't any prejudices in the general public but we simply are an ethnically homogeneous country and people with either Negroid or Mongoloid looks aren't really a daily view. And I have never felt there was anything offensive about Popo. If his portrayal was racist, then it would be created in such a way so as to invoke hatred and disgust. For a comparison take a look at this antisemitic caricature:

Spoiler:

[DBZAOTA482]

I fully believe in understanding the proper context of a Japanese man in the '80s drawing his perception of black people, but this is a weak counter. It's like when lolicon enthusiasts are quick to yell "It's not a little girl! She's an 8,000-year-old demon!"

Heh. What is that, Disgaea?

And as for Popo, he LOOKS human enough (or at least, like a Dragon Ball human), and that's enough by my book. I mean, it wouldn't even be that bad, except for the fact that he literally speaks like a caveman in the Japanese version (unlike the FUNI version, even in Kai).

Can he get some points for being a badass though?

[Akyon]

Mr. Popo: Uses the racist imagery as a basis for his design, is depicted as an uneducated servent

Leaving aside the racist imagery momentarily, Mr. Popo is depicted as uneducated? I always thought he was one of the wiser characters in the series.

[Darknat]

Mr. Popo: Uses the racist imagery as a basis for his design, is depicted as an uneducated servent

Leaving aside the racist imagery momentarily, Mr. Popo is depicted as uneducated? I always thought he was one of the wiser characters in the series.

They mean the way he talks in japanese. He usually uses his name instead of pronouns, like "Popo thinks this is a good idea". However that doens't necesarily mean he's uneducated. It's also a very innocent way of speaking. Mayushi from Steins Gate also speaks that way.

Regarding the topic, when I watched Dragon Ball when I was a kid I never thought those characters as racist. And changing the color of Mr Popo or removing his lips only manages to draw peoples attention to something that probably was seen as just an innocent caricature and was not intended as racism.

I'm not sure if I'm explaining my point of view here since I'm not a native english speaker. What I mean is that a kid may not notice those feattures unless pointed to him/her, and an adult should not see them as racist stereotypes unless they are shown in a racist context, which Dragon Ball characters are not. Only when drawing attention to them, they can become a bad influence.

Both Black and Popo are servants, which may be considered racist, but they are not slaves. Black is shown as above all other generals in the Red Ribbon army and even kills Red and becomes the leader of the Red Ribbon, so he shows a lot of character. Mr Popo is shown to be stronger than Piccolo when he appears and a very calm person. He's more protrayed as a Djinn than a human. He also does not follow Kami's orders blindly, he even tells goku what would happen if Piccolo dies, even though Kami didn't want that. He also is the one who suggests the kids use the fusion whereas all other characters didn't know what to do. In the end he has his moments even though he's mostly a background character. Also no one in the entire show undermines him. The closest thing is when Bulma is afraid of him, but even then he is not undermine there either.

[Man-Child]

I dont believe that Toriyama was intentionally trying to insult dark skinned peoples with his drawings of characters like Popo or Staff Officer Black. Their designs seem to be based on blatantly racist caricatures, but I doubt the intent was there, as the writing of these characters are more fair.

Popo isnt a human being, has a gentle personality, has never died, and at one point was the second strongest fighter in the world. Granted he does have an uneducated way of speaking, and has essentially been the servant of both Kami and Dende, but his other qualities seem to balance out the more stereotypical aspects of his character.

Staff Officer Black also had similar stereotypical traits, but he was also written with traits that differed from that light, such as being the real genius behind Red, who killed him and took over the RR army.

I dont remember enough of Killa to really comment on him, unfortunately. The Funimation dub clip of the character someone posted was stupid and borderline offensive, but thats the anime, which Toriyama cant be held responsible for.

It definitely seems like a mixed bag, in regards to how the few dark skinned characters were designed and written, but at the end of the day, I personally dont think there was anything outright and intentionally racist about them.

Obviously it's up to each individual though, and I have no right to say whether someone's feelings about the characters, one way or another, are wrong. I'm just giving my two cents.

[Kamiccolo9]

I dont believe that Toriyama was intentionally trying to insult dark skinned peoples with his drawings of characters like Popo or Staff Seargant Black. Their designs seem to be based on blatantly racist caricatures, but I doubt the intent was there, as the writing of these characters are more fair.

Popo isnt a human being, has a gentle personality, has never died, and at one point was the second strongest fighter in the world. Granted he does have an uneducated way of speaking, and has essentially been the servant of both Kami and Dende, but his other qualities seem to balance out the more stereotypical aspects of his character.

Staff Officer Black also had similar stereotypical traits, but he was also written with traits that differed from that light, such as being the real genius behind Red, who killed him and took over the RR army.

I dont remember enough of Killa to really comment on him, unfortunately. The Funimation dub clip of the character someone posted was stupid and borderline offensive, but thats the anime, which Toriyama cant be held responsible for.

It definitely seems like a mixed bag, in regards to how the few dark skinned characters were designed and written, but at the end of the day, I personally dont think there was anything outright and intentionally racist about them.

Obviously it's up to each individual though, and I have no right to say whether someone's feelings about the characters, one way or another, is wrong. I'm just giving my two cents.

I agree, overall, but one small nitpick-

Popo died once, in the Buu Arc when Buu escaped from the RoSaT and ate everybody.

[Man-Child]

I agree, overall, but one small nitpick-

Popo died once, in the Buu Arc when Buu escaped from the RoSaT and ate everybody.

Geez, this is why I have to go back and watch the Buu saga again. I've forgotten so many obvious details in the ten years since I saw it.

Thanks for the correction.

[DBZAOTA482]

I dont believe that Toriyama was intentionally trying to insult dark skinned peoples with his drawings of characters like Popo or Staff Seargant Black. Their designs seem to be based on blatantly racist caricatures, but I doubt the intent was there, as the writing of these characters are more fair.

Popo isnt a human being, has a gentle personality, has never died, and at one point was the second strongest fighter in the world. Granted he does have an uneducated way of speaking, and has essentially been the servant of both Kami and Dende, but his other qualities seem to balance out the more stereotypical aspects of his character.

Staff Officer Black also had similar stereotypical traits, but he was also written with traits that differed from that light, such as being the real genius behind Red, who killed him and took over the RR army.

I dont remember enough of Killa to really comment on him, unfortunately. The Funimation dub clip of the character someone posted was stupid and borderline offensive, but thats the anime, which Toriyama cant be held responsible for.

It definitely seems like a mixed bag, in regards to how the few dark skinned characters were designed and written, but at the end of the day, I personally dont think there was anything outright and intentionally racist about them.

Obviously it's up to each individual though, and I have no right to say whether someone's feelings about the characters, one way or another, is wrong. I'm just giving my two cents.

I agree, overall, but one small nitpick-

Popo died once, in the Buu Arc when Buu escaped from the RoSaT and ate everybody.

But he saved Dende by pushing him off the Lookout. He's a hero.

[StrawHatPatriot]

I'm just gonna mention that Little Black Sambo was a popular book in Japan, which is why many mangakas may use that design in their mangas.

So that's probably why Toriyama used it for Popo.

It doesn't mean that people who find it uncomrfortable should be bashed on like I'm seeing in this thread though...

[Monkey King Vegeta]

Are we going to pretend that AT didn't have some racial feelings towards certain character appearances, because from what I see, he seemed to prefer Caucasian facial features for the good characters while the bad ones would get some stereotypical asian look.

I think there was a panel of the manga where Master Roshi is comparing a fat asian women to a white one, assuming that the white one was beautiful and the asian one as ugly, what was the point of this?

Watching many anime, I see this trend everywhere, even One Piece has this going on.

I just realized, Oda used fishmans to represent black people in order to avoid being criticized for his art-style, damn anime be raciss yo.

[rereboy]

Are we going to pretend that AT didn't have some racial feelings towards certain character appearances, because from what I see, he seemed to prefer Caucasian facial features for the good characters while the bad ones would get some stereotypical asian look.

I think there was a panel of the manga where Master Roshi is comparing a fat asian women to a white one, assuming that the white one was beautiful and the asian one as ugly, what was the point of this?

Watching many anime, I see this trend everywhere, even One Piece has this going on.

I just realized, Oda used fishmans to represent black people in order to avoid being criticized for his art-style, damn anime be raciss yo.

We just don't see racial conspiracies everywhere.

[SingleFringe&Sparks]

Well, all animated african americans are racist man, stop trying!
African Americans shouldn't be animated, like ever, lol!

You mean basically, take the worst or nothing at all?

On the right note, this is starting to be really ridiculous and that's what is wrong with people nowadays!
What would be really racist? If Mr. Popo, who is cool and strong character, was dressed in boilersuit, harvesting cotton.
And now, eat me! There is nothing racist in Toriyama's portrayals, only oversensitive pseudohumanist people are making issues where there is none.
I think that policemen shooting african-americans on street for nothing is problem, not races depicted with their facial features with non-offensive traits.

And nobody has trouble with John Stewart from DC Comics? He has lips bigger than Superman's fist. How come?

See, you're choosing to ignore context for easy dismissal. Its not the features themselves that are insulting to people, its when they are made in exaggerations to implicate unattractiveness of the people with them, are skewed to levels intended to define the entire race based upon those features. Black people have big lips and Asians have small eyes but making caricatures of those people based upon that while leaving the white characters as the ideal of "normality" and attractiveness in comparison is nothing new and old-historical propaganda.

Did you really just say the Japanese can't be held responsible and that it's the West's fault?

Also, you must never watch prime time comedies on ABC, NBC or CBS because they joke about everyone in their shows.

They shouldn't. The Japanese/Koreans didnt create these slurs, they just adopted them thinking that they were just a part of the western media. They also have no connection the historical social assersions they were created to perpetuate. Their media is very outdated skewed through their own localization and history lessons. (Provable by them still thinking that "british" is an ethnic race, even in modern "foreign" anime characters.)

I've read media where they actually thought the "black face" image was cute, when the dolls were made in WW2. Not to mention their Ganguro style was adopted from their literal idea of trying to emulate their impressions of Black R&B singers when it came over in the 90s. A lot of their misconceptions come from homogenous lack of knowledge really. They dont see it as insulting and have no prenotion to because it was not in their history to identify with. I recently saw a campaign in South Korea with Korean women dressed up in what we call blackface in their own support of African women's liberation. I assume in doubt that they just think that to immitate what they see as blackness, they have to do it literally. I put America/Europe on a greater standard for it, as their media is the one that produces conciously racist depictions of ethnic groups localized to other countries.