The New Gods of the Universe Survival Arc Discussion Thread

[TheMathemagician]

imo Toriyama's design sucks such much lately.

Botomo= bear
Frost= rip-off Frieza
Robot
skinny saiyan

i really think he cannot design characters like Cell or Frieza anymore.

Can't say I agree. Beerus, Hit, the Gods of Destruction, the Teletubbie, and the Wolf dude all look great to me. I think he's still got it.

[Cipher]

imo Toriyama's design sucks such much lately.

Botomo= bear
Frost= rip-off Frieza
Robot
skinny saiyan

i really think he cannot design characters like Cell or Frieza anymore.

Beerus and Whis are absolutely stellar designs, and as far as I'm concerned, he's only gotten better with human characters over the years.

You're right, though, that he isn't pumping out iconic, complicated monster designs the way he did during the series' original run. Maybe that's the lack of back-and-forth with editorial. I think more than that, though, these are designs intended to really play well with Toriyama's current art style. Picturing a manga version of Super with a streamlined art style along the lines of Jaco is an absolute joy, and all these characters work seamlessly in that environment.

Run through Super's art style by way of Yamamoto, I feel something is lost, and they do wind up feeling a little underwhelming, especially since the overall style of the world isn't set up to accommodate them. They don't quite feel like they belong next to Goku and Vegeta, or any other pre-existing character whose anime designs take less from Toriyama's current style.

Basically, Toriyama is delivering designs I like, but I think they're designs meant for him to draw rather than anyone else.

Imagine if Super were redone from the ground-up with an art style accurate to current Toriyama though (rounder, sleeker, a color palette that isn't eye-searing). A guy can dream.

[Saturnine]

People complain about Toriyama no longer making overdesigned enemies that look like palette-swapped versions of each other? You've got character editors in Xenoverse to do that for you

Also, FemBroly is a nice bone thrown to all those macho kids from Mexico and Paraguay who love Broly the most.

[SingleFringe&Sparks]

Beerus and Whis are absolutely stellar designs, and as far as I'm concerned, he's only gotten better with human characters over the years.

You're right, though, that he isn't pumping out iconic, complicated monster designs the way he did during the series' original run. Maybe that's the lack of back-and-forth with editorial.

I think thats the problem entirely. He probably just scribbles something and they take it as is; maybe even more so now after how he redesigned Toei's original plan for Beerus. However its because of that, you don't get the more elaborate designs we're used to seeing for a main villain and the Z era was what stabled the expectation and GT for the most part went even further with that. He got lucky with Beerus being a lot better than his original concept from Toei, and all of the angels thus far look perfect and consistent to Whis' design that had the most detail put into it so it makes sense that people are disappointed. I mean the characters now in modern Toriyama are a lot lankier, rounded and more doddle-like than anything final, and because they aren't filler if characters like this will eventually become the faces of the arc for the rest of the franchise run, it only brings more disappointment through the contrast of them being the anti-climatic hype for it.

[Cipher]

What characters were overdesigned AND palette swapped? You only see either one or the other and the overdesigned ones inherently always carried the stature of a main villain that most arcs had. Most of these characters look like they've come straight out of usual Toei filler.

Toei's never completely nailed Toriyama-esque original characters when he isn't behind the designs (and even when he is, they tend to have a slightly different style; possibly because he isn't anticipating drawing them weekly?). Those gangsters from the beginning of the Hit filler recently were probably the number-one tipoff that elements for that episode didn't come from Toriyama -- they look like someone approximating his work rather than anything he'd ever draw. Ditto everyone in the Copy-Vegeta arc; it felt like someone was mixing and matching Toriyama sci-fi elements.

Filler characters from the original anime that spring to mind (Kinkaku and Ginkaku; Haski; the residents of the Demon World) are all a bit over-designed. They're all super busy. I think the closest Toei has ever come on a consistent basis is Nakatsuru's simpler designs in GT.

So, like, I disagree that Toriyama's recent streamlined designs look at all like "usual Toei filler." They just look like modern Toriyama. Which ... admittedly does't mesh as well as it could alongside other designs in Super not sticking close to modern Toriyama.

[Hellspawn28]

We are only missing 2 Gods of Destruction

For the last two Gods of Destructions, I hope to see a Lizard God. They could use Beerus original design for a Lizard GoD.

[SingleFringe&Sparks]

What characters were overdesigned AND palette swapped? You only see either one or the other and the overdesigned ones inherently always carried the stature of a main villain that most arcs had. Most of these characters look like they've come straight out of usual Toei filler.

Toei's never completely nailed Toriyama-esque original characters when he isn't behind the designs (and even when he is, they tend to have a slightly different style; possibly because he isn't anticipating drawing them weekly?). Those gangsters from the beginning of the Hit filler recently were probably the number-one tipoff that elements for that episode didn't come from Toriyama -- they look like someone approximating his work rather than anything he'd ever draw. Ditto everyone in the Copy-Vegeta arc; it felt like someone was mixing and matching Toriyama sci-fi elements.

Filler characters from the original anime that spring to mind (Kinkaku and Ginkaku; Haski; the residents of the Demon World) are all a bit over-designed. They're all super busy. I think the closest Toei has ever come on a consistent basis is Nakatsuru's simpler designs in GT.

So, like, I disagree that Toriyama's recent streamlined designs look at all like "usual Toei filler." They just look like modern Toriyama. Which ... admittedly don't mesh as well as they could alongside other designs in Super not sticking close to modern Toriyama.

I don't know if its so much the artstyle itself, but the lack creativity to the designs themselves is what I see. I mean there really is no Toriyama style to them anymore. If I were to look at characters like GT Pan, Trunks, No. 18, No. 19, No. 20, Cell, (characters most similar to his Chrono Trigger and Dragon Quest work) I would know that this was Toriyama. With the newer characters, you're pretty much guessing who did what because of that lack of style in these designs. Then there is GT where even though Nakatsuru designed most of the villains (I think) there still was that consistent style carried over into characters like Oceanus Shenron, Ice/Nova, Haze,Super 17, Dr. Myu, lord Luud, etc that you can see emulated the closest to Toriyama would do for his that era of his work, which was where he was at his most elaborate.

Whis and Vados are probably the last characters to really reflect that style he had pre-Jaco. Post-Jaco everything just looks like generic cartoon characters that could have been in any other Shounen show. Having too many features you can argue make a character too busy but having next to nothing recognizable from the style of the series is the polar opposite to me.

[kinisking]

imo Toriyama's design sucks such much lately.

Botomo= bear
Frost= rip-off Frieza
Robot
skinny saiyan

i really think he cannot design characters like Cell or Frieza anymore.

Can't say I agree. Beerus, Hit, the Gods of Destruction, the Teletubbie, and the Wolf dude all look great to me. I think he's still got it.

I disagree with him too. Too many people remember the iconic designs like Cell, Boo, and Freeza. What about all the other not so great designs? Pretty much all of Freeza's army, android 19 and 20, evil boo, babidi and so on. Even back then most of the designs were mediocre with the highlights being amazing. I think Beerus, Black, and Hit have amazing designs. The new outfits are always good too.

Also, Rip off freeza is absolutely bullshit. The difference between Frost and Freeza are about the same as between Goku and Vegeta.

[Gog]

imo Toriyama's design sucks such much lately.

Botomo= bear
Frost= rip-off Frieza
Robot
skinny saiyan

i really think he cannot design characters like Cell or Frieza anymore.

Can't say I agree. Beerus, Hit, the Gods of Destruction, the Teletubbie, and the Wolf dude all look great to me. I think he's still got it.

I disagree with him too. Too many people remember the iconic designs like Cell, Boo, and Freeza. What about all the other not so great designs? Pretty much all of Freeza's army, android 19 and 20, evil boo, babidi and so on. Even back then most of the designs were mediocre with the highlights being amazing. I think Beerus, Black, and Hit have amazing designs. The new outfits are always good too.

Also, Rip off freeza is absolutely bullshit. The difference between Frost and Freeza are about the same as between Goku and Vegeta.

I agree with everything you say, except for Dr Gero's design which I consider to be one of the best designs Akria Toryiama ever produced

[Boo Machine]

I agree with everything you say, except for Dr Gero's design which I consider to be one of the best designs Akria Toryiama ever produced

Agreed. I really liked Dr. Gero's look. Same with 19. Shame they had so little screen time.

[Gog]

I agree with everything you say, except for Dr Gero's design which I consider to be one of the best designs Akria Toryiama ever produced

Agreed. I really liked Dr. Gero's look. Same with 19. Shame they had so little screen time.

Dr Gero is the most wasted character in the entirety of Dragon Ball. I won't ever forgive Toriyama's editors for getting rid of him, and dooming the net two arcs.

[Cipher]

I don't know if its so much the artstyle itself, but the lack creativity to the designs themselves is what I see. I mean there really is no Toriyama style to them anymore.

I guess that's more or less what I disagree with. It's a different style than he was using in '96, but if you put these new designs in a lineup with Toei-created characters from any era ever, I think you could pick them out fairly easily. They're distinctly Toriyama and not at all as generic as I think you're casting them as; they're just 2010s Toriyama as opposed to '90s Toriyama. It's very much the post-Jaco style; rounder, sleeker, expressive, more stripped down. Toei has never designed incidental characters like that; they've never really captured the simpler designs.

For what it's worth, I don't think there's anything generic about the character designs in Jaco either. Tights, Jaco, Omori and Katayude would all stand out as distinctly Toriyama if you dropped them into another manga.

But a lot of that is in his drawing style, rather than the designs themselves if adapted by someone else. Which is why I love the designs by way of Toriyama, or picturing how they should look in his style, but in Super I agree they're kind of ... eh???

Maybe you could charge Toriyama with producing less adaptable designs than he did in the '90s?

[SaiyanGod117]

I disagree with him too. Too many people remember the iconic designs like Cell, Boo, and Freeza. What about all the other not so great designs? Pretty much all of Freeza's army, android 19 and 20, evil boo, babidi and so on. Even back then most of the designs were mediocre with the highlights being amazing. I think Beerus, Black, and Hit have amazing designs. The new outfits are always good too.

Also, Rip off freeza is absolutely bullshit. The difference between Frost and Freeza are about the same as between Goku and Vegeta.

Toriyama barely had any bad designs during his manga days, he even designed all the movie villains and major characters. Every design that you just said was mediocre, is pretty good to me, so judging off his designs from the manga, movies, anime, and games. He's either didn't draw some of these characters or he's just not trying, I vote for the latter.
Edit: Or these God of Destruction or hiding their true form or something.

[Pluto]

We have additional ancient Egyptian based gods, with the elephant (ganesha) we have the Indian based gods in game, but the fur and the clown leave me puzzled.

Toriyama is definitely taking a piss at religions.

[Lujin_16]

imo Toriyama's design sucks such much lately.

Botomo= bear
Frost= rip-off Frieza
Robot
skinny saiyan

i really think he cannot design characters like Cell or Frieza anymore.

Can't say I agree. Beerus, Hit, the Gods of Destruction, the Teletubbie, and the Wolf dude all look great to me. I think he's still got it.

I disagree with him too. Too many people remember the iconic designs like Cell, Boo, and Freeza. What about all the other not so great designs? Pretty much all of Freeza's army, android 19 and 20, evil boo, babidi and so on. Even back then most of the designs were mediocre with the highlights being amazing. I think Beerus, Black, and Hit have amazing designs. The new outfits are always good too.

Also, Rip off freeza is absolutely bullshit. The difference between Frost and Freeza are about the same as between Goku and Vegeta.

Let's say Dragonball & Dragonball Super has really different designs than Dragonball Z it has nothing to do that Akira i not creativ anymore
that's not true..Designs like Black Goku,Hit,Beerus,Zamasu are in the same level than Cell,Frieza,Boo if not better

[Simere]

Gotta say, those platforms they're standing on look really uncomfortable. No room to walk around, nothing to sit on. Going to be a long tournament.

[Draconic]

Probably grasping at straws here, but Haokah is a clown God of Thunder in Native American mythology. Of course, he doesn't look like a modern day clown, with the red nose and whatnot, like Toriyama's design, but still. Of course, I can't really imagine anyone thinking of this, since it's pretty obscure and I only know about it as he is a character in a fantasy book I'm writing.

[Majin Jator]

No theories about how the gods are paired?

My guess:
Elephant guy- Tiny (mouse?) god
Egyptian chick- Ugly dwarf (beuty opposites being the theme here)
Furball- Robot (hair and lack of..ok, this one sounds more far fetched, but I'm possitive about it)
The fox and the clown are probably matched with the two unseen gods, since they don't seem like a good pairing.

[Ki Breaker]

I'm just interested in that hooded figure with the clown and harley quinn.

Bet He is the one who kills hit

[emperior]

No theories about how the gods are paired?

My guess:
Elephant guy- Tiny (mouse?) god
Egyptian chick- Ugly dwarf (beuty opposites being the theme here)
Furball- Robot (hair and lack of..ok, this one sounds more far fetched, but I'm possitive about it)
The fox and the clown are probably matched with the two unseen gods, since they don't seem like a good pairing.

I think you are definitely right. Elephants being afraid of mouses (which is a false fact a lot of people believe to be true) could be the reasoning for the pair.