Super retelling BOG and ROF

[TheDevilsCorpse]

I'll agree that those character are almost certainly not going to show up in Super, but not for those reasons. Dragon Ball has never reeeeally died in Japan. They still have access to the internet, they can purchase the films, the film animation comics, there is merchandise with the movies characters, all the console and arcade games, etc. Broli is probably the worst example of "modern kids won't know this character" that you could have picked though. That bastard is literally almost everywhere, and that's why he keeps getting all these new transformations in Heroes and such actions continue his exposure.

[Hellspawn28]

I know Broli is still very relevant, but home video releases in Japan is very pricey compare to the US. I don't think most kids in Japan seen the older stuff from the 80's & 90's. In Japan, the older Kamen Riders, Super Sentai and Gundams where still used in merchandise from Bandai, but I hear most younger kids in Japan watching the recent Rider shows never seen the shows that came out before they where born from other members from Henshin Justice. How many kids in Japan seen DB stuff besides Kai and the recent movies?

[DisapprovingOwl]

Just a quick theory for upcoming events in Super. I know when Battle of Gods first aired a lot of people commented that the scriptwriters seemed to have forgotten that Shenlong can now grant two wishes, but they seem to have remembered by the time they were producing Resurrection 'F'. Now that Super is retelling the events of these movies, I'd imagine they'll try to make it consistent between the two, so I was thinking about what they could possibly use a second wish for during the events of the initial story arc.

Then it hit me. Some people have said they think they've brought Kaiō-sama back for this arc not just due to his presence in Battle of Gods, but also to give Jōji Yanami sort of a 'last hurrah' as Kaiō before retiring the character for a bit. If this is the case, couldn't there be more meaning to Kaiō's rant to Goku in episode 3 about him hoping to be wished back to life? It's played completely for comic relief at the time, and Kaiō's really just changing the subject to avoid mentioning Beerus, but... what if something from his rant actually sticks in Goku's head and, when given the chance, he decides to use the second wish to bring Kaiō, Bubbles and Gregory back to life? Rather than just letting him fade into the background, it'd give Kaiō some actual closure - alive, with his home restored, and able to resume the peaceful life he had prior to the Saiyan arc of Dragon Ball Z. Could even have Goku promise he won't drop by for a long while to give Kaiō a chance to relax... prompting him to try to find a new master to train under, and leading towards the events of the second arc based on Resurrection 'F'.

What do you think? Plausible? Or do you think there's a better use for a second wish in the unfolding arc? = )

[Potanical Pardon]

I wonder if Tarble is going to be retconned out or if we are going to get a reintroduction to the character. It'll be interesting come wish time if they don't even reference him.

Just a quick theory for upcoming events in Super. I know when Battle of Gods first aired a lot of people commented that the scriptwriters seemed to have forgotten that Shenlong can now grant two wishes, but they seem to have remembered by the time they were producing Resurrection 'F'. Now that Super is retelling the events of these movies, I'd imagine they'll try to make it consistent between the two, so I was thinking about what they could possibly use a second wish for during the events of the initial story arc.

Then it hit me. Some people have said they think they've brought Kaiō-sama back for this arc not just due to his presence in Battle of Gods, but also to give Jōji Yanami sort of a 'last hurrah' as Kaiō before retiring the character for a bit. If this is the case, couldn't there be more meaning to Kaiō's rant to Goku in episode 3 about him hoping to be wished back to life? It's played completely for comic relief at the time, and Kaiō's really just changing the subject to avoid mentioning Beerus, but... what if something from his rant actually sticks in Goku's head and, when given the chance, he decides to use the second wish to bring Kaiō, Bubbles and Gregory back to life? Rather than just letting him fade into the background, it'd give Kaiō some actual closure - alive, with his home restored, and able to resume the peaceful life he had prior to the Saiyan arc of Dragon Ball Z. Could even have Goku promise he won't drop by for a long while to give Kaiō a chance to relax... prompting him to try to find a new master to train under, and leading towards the events of the second arc based on Resurrection 'F'.

What do you think? Plausible? Or do you think there's a better use for a second wish in the unfolding arc? = )

That's what I think too, but I don't want to retire the characters entirely. I'm still waiting for Lunch to return as a supporting character.

That reminds me...Dai Kaiō...what a useless character that was. Glad he seems to be completely ignored now.

[DisapprovingOwl]

That's what I think too, but I don't want to retire the characters entirely. I'm still waiting for Lunch to return as a supporting character.

I agree there - it'd be nice to see Kaiō-sama again down the road, either if Jōji Yanami's health improves again or if they decide to recast. That's why I quite liked the theory I proposed - it's something that could work as an ending of sorts for the character and give a reason to 'retire' him for a while, but it equally doesn't stop him from making future appearences if they decided they wanted to bring him back later after all. = )

Also, agreed on Lunch - I'd like to see what she's up to nowadays, end-of-Z filler notwithstanding. Bulma is a terrible person for not inviting her to her birthday party... though that also goes for her elder sister Tights, too! I like to think the two of them have teamed up and are travelling around the world together to help Tights find some inspiration for her latest novel, and so they'd be too busy to come to the party anyway. = P

[MaGyunia]

I still doubt any characters from DBZ Movies 1-13 will show off like Broli, Coola and Tapion. They are from movies that are over 20 years old. Most kids and casual TV watchers most likely have no idea who are they. I think it would be rather confusing if Broli just show up out of nowhere in Super.

I fully agree. The 13 DBZ movies were made for commercial purposes, depicting "what-if" scenarios and exploring and expanding upon a bit on non-canon characters and settings with some potential to them, but, even taking into account the length of ANY movie, the story could never be too good. The CONCEPT of SOME events and characters, though, was worth exploring in its core. Some failed miserably, others were excellent (Brolly's Movie 8 is just one of the good ones, personally my favorite ones besides that one are Movie 3, Movie 5 and Movie 12). It's rather obvious that they'll do more movies and/or an entire full-fledged series years from now, after DBSuper, regardless of the timing it will be set in, but the scenario of getting ANY character from the 13 Movies (re)introduced back into future movies/series seems just too far-fetched to me. Even the characters introduced in the "second round" of Dragonball after 11 years of inactivity, like Tarble, who was considered to be canon along with BoG and Fukkatsu no F up until a few weeks/months ago, are most likely NOT going to make an appearance in the future, regardless of popular demand, or lack thereof.

In DBSuper, it's becoming more and more entirely obvious that after the first 2/3 smooth, family-oriented episodes dedicated to (re)introduce most of the main/supporting characters who belong to the history of DB and DBZ, we'll move on to the Beerus arc, which will be a retelling of the events of BoG in pretty much almost the exact same circumstances, although at a different timing, in no more than 10-12 episodes, and then we'll get one or two lighter episodes without any serious "menace", pretty much along the lines of the in-between episodes we got throughout DBZ between major arcs, then we'll move on to the Freeza arc, which should itself be covered also in no more than 10-12 episodes, so, according to the estimates we already did a few days ago, we should be moving on the third major arc (6th Universe) by episode 23/25. It would be purely speculative and an exercise of futility to, at this point, even try to estimate how many episodes the 6th Universe arc will last and where and when it will end in the series' timeline, and there's even the possibility of yet another follow-up arc to that. We just don't know what the future of DBSuper in the long run (and I mean, 2016, maybe even 2017) will be, nor can we make any rough estimates of the total number of episodes the series will consist of, because we simply lack any information to base any theory on.

[Basaku]

I just really want to get out of the Boo era (as much as I love it) for the next movie.

Me too, but we'll have to wait till at least mid 2016 for that, if not longer. Nothing will change until they finish the current Gods arc and chances are the next movie will be stuck in this era too and present conscended Universe 6 story from Super

[OWmyDragonBallz]

I just really want to get out of the Boo era (as much as I love it) for the next movie.

Me too, but we'll have to wait till at least mid 2016 for that, if not longer. Nothing will change until they finish the current Gods arc and chances are the next movie will be stuck in this era too and present conscended Universe 6 story from Super

Why would there be another movie when DB Super is doing everything now? It's also hard to tell which version over rides which. DB Super has many differences from the BoG movie. Do we treat the BoG/RoF movies as alternate timelines like the other movies? Not to mention the DB Super manga has differences from the DB Super TV show.

[sintzu]

Why would there be another movie when DB Super is doing everything now ?

The same reason there were 2 movies a year while Z was running,to make $$$.

[Basaku]

Why would there be another movie when DB Super is doing everything now?

Same question why would there be a TV series telling the same story as 2 already-released movies. I'm just trying to play along Toei's weird logic

[DoomieDoomie911]

Why would there be another movie when DB Super is doing everything now?

The same reason that there were movies during Z's run.

It's also hard to tell which version over rides which. DB Super has many differences from the BoG movie. Do we treat the BoG/RoF movies as alternate timelines like the other movies?

I think it's pretty much up to each individual as to what they consider canon. I don't think it will matter much in the long run.

[MaGyunia]

Why would there be another movie when DB Super is doing everything now?

The same reason that there were movies during Z's run.

It's also hard to tell which version over rides which. DB Super has many differences from the BoG movie. Do we treat the BoG/RoF movies as alternate timelines like the other movies?

I think it's pretty much up to each individual as to what they consider canon. I don't think it will matter much in the long run.

In my view, DBSuper, as a full-fledged series, and particularly the Beerus and Freeza arcs within it, "overrides" (as you put it) both BoG and Fukkatsu no F, and, as a result of that, they should be viewed as entirely "non-canon" (I mean, either an event, character, movie or special is canon or it isn't, there's no in-between), much in the same way all of DB's 4 Movies, DBZ's 13 Movies (except, from a certain perspective, Movie 9) and the entirety of GT (all of them depicting "what-if" scenarios and exploring some characters and events with some potential to them, and also having been made for obvious commercial purposes).

It's only a matter of personal position, but I want there to be just one and only main timeline, (except the ones additional, future ones generated during the Jinzouningen and Cell arcs), for purposes of simplification and exactness, to which events can be eventually added and taken at any point.

There's no established logic to be followed here by anyone and Toei and Toriyama did come up with a few surprising takes very recently, with their decisions to make movies/specials, announcing them as canon, and then "decanonizing" them soon after with a sudden, surprising announcement of a new series 19 years (!) after the last one happened. I'm just theorizing here, but it could be that their intention all along with the process of revitalization of Dragonball with the 2008 special, Kai, Episode of Bardock, BoG and Fukkatsu no F was all intended to function as a preparation of the entire Dragonball-fandom to the final real meat: a new series (eventually, but quite soon), but I think the theory collapses after you look at the sequence of events back in 2012/2013, as Toriyama expressly announced BoG, at the time of its conception/marketing/release as a canon continuation of the events in DBZ after the defeat of Kid Buu (and the 2008 special was made canon as well, by implication, as Tarble is mentioned in BoG itself by Bulma).

It may be hard to accept that the events depicted in BoG and Fukkatsu no F are no longer canon, as in, they never actually "happened" (no matter how close the retelling of the events depicted in them in DBSuper will be to the way they were presented in the movies themselves), especially after we all went through the process of accepting the 2008 special, BoG and Fukkatsu no F as direct canon continuations of DBZ, after 11 years of Dragonball inactivity; having to reverse the entire thing, especially so soon after each movie was released (2 years and a few months, respectively) was both weird AND difficult, but I'm well over that by now. One of the things that we over-discussed in here before the series debuted was the need (or if it was the right way to do it or not) for telling almost the exact same events in DBSuper when compared to BoG, in pretty much the exact same circumstances with some changes and natural additions here and there, although at a different timing. With this in mind, and if there's any logic to their decisions, we can only postulate that they initially intended BoG to be THE real canon continuation of DBZ's Majin Buu arc before they even thought of another series, and after the movie did so well at all levels and they realized just how much potential Beerus, Whis and the concept of Super Saiya-jin God had, coupled with their decision to go for an entirely new series, mixed/amalgamated everything into one big move: to indeed go further with a full-fledged series, but having the first part(s) of it retelling the events, characters and stages of BoG retold/(re)introduced without the time restraints typical of a movie (even a larger one), which would mean that, if they could back in time, they probably would have chosen NOT to release BoG at all and instead have Beerus, Whis and the rest of the characters and events depicted in the movie introduced for the very first time in the series, since a large chunk of fans is and will continue to be complaining about how disappointing it is to dedicate some 10-12 episodes to retelling events which we've already seen in the movie, with some minor changes and additions here and there, and they must pretty be aware of that degree of disappointment, or at least they're capable of foreseeing it.

It's not the first time I undertake this pretty simple exercise, but until further notice, this is the sequence of canon events in the Dragonball Universe (not counting off-screen events which happened thousands or millions of years ago, referred to throughout DBZ, but only events which we've actually seen on-screen):
1 - Bardock Special
2- DB
3 - DBZ Saiya-jin and Freeza arcs
4 - (alternate timeline) Trunks Special
5 - DBZ Jinzouningen and Cell arcs
6 - Movie 9 (debatable)
7 - Majin Buu arc
8 - First two/three episodes of DBSuper
9 - DBSuper's Beerus arc
10 - DBSuper's Freeza arc
11 - DBSuper's 6th Universe arc
12 - last 3 episodes of DBZ (we've also been over-debating whether or not they'll retcon that last Tenkaichi Budokai and the introduction of Uub both in this thread and in others as well, but at this particular stage they remain canon, as nothing so far indicates otherwise - that shouldn't mean they won't retcon it or completely "erase" those events from the timeline entirely in the rather near future, though)

[irreality]

Why not include movie 13, Wrath of the Dragon, if you include Movie 9? It could happen right before Super without contradiction, I think (unless they give a precise date in the movie).

[MaGyunia]

Why not include movie 13, Wrath of the Dragon, if you include Movie 9? It could happen right before Super without contradiction, I think (unless they give a precise date in the movie).

I actually once made an entire list of all the 13 Movies describing when each one WOULD fit in the series' timeline, and what events would have to be changed in order to make them possible, and I included both Movie 9 AND Movie 13, but it turned out I did it in a bit of a rush and didn't remember that they had used the Dragon Balls in that movie, which would make it impossible for them to use them again right after that (to erase the memory of Majin Buu from Earthlings) and again in the movie, which, if it had taken place, would have done so a few weeks/months right after the defeat of Kid Buu.

I'll try to get the entire exercise depicting how exactly each one of the 13 Movies COULD have taken place (as in, what circumstances would have to change when compared to the actual, canon ones), though. It was a fun thing to do.

[ZombieVito]

Why would there be another movie when DB Super is doing everything now?

The same reason that there were movies during Z's run.

It's also hard to tell which version over rides which. DB Super has many differences from the BoG movie. Do we treat the BoG/RoF movies as alternate timelines like the other movies?

I think it's pretty much up to each individual as to what they consider canon. I don't think it will matter much in the long run.

In my view, DBSuper, as a full-fledged series, and particularly the Beerus and Freeza arcs within it, "overrides" (as you put it) both BoG and Fukkatsu no F, and, as a result of that, they should be viewed as entirely "non-canon" (I mean, either an event, character, movie or special is canon or it isn't, there's no in-between), much in the same way all of DB's 4 Movies, DBZ's 13 Movies (except, from a certain perspective, Movie 9) and the entirety of GT (all of them depicting "what-if" scenarios and exploring some characters and events with some potential to them, and also having been made for obvious commercial purposes).

It's only a matter of personal position, but I want there to be just one and only main timeline, (except the ones additional, future ones generated during the Jinzouningen and Cell arcs), for purposes of simplification and exactness, to which events can be eventually added and taken at any point.

There's no established logic to be followed here by anyone and Toei and Toriyama did come up with a few surprising takes very recently, with their decisions to make movies/specials, announcing them as canon, and then "decanonizing" them soon after with a sudden, surprising announcement of a new series 19 years (!) after the last one happened. I'm just theorizing here, but it could be that their intention all along with the process of revitalization of Dragonball with the 2008 special, Kai, Episode of Bardock, BoG and Fukkatsu no F was all intended to function as a preparation of the entire Dragonball-fandom to the final real meat: a new series (eventually, but quite soon), but I think the theory collapses after you look at the sequence of events back in 2012/2013, as Toriyama expressly announced BoG, at the time of its conception/marketing/release as a canon continuation of the events in DBZ after the defeat of Kid Buu (and the 2008 special was made canon as well, by implication, as Tarble is mentioned in BoG itself by Bulma).

It may be hard to accept that the events depicted in BoG and Fukkatsu no F are no longer canon, as in, they never actually "happened" (no matter how close the retelling of the events depicted in them in DBSuper will be to the way they were presented in the movies themselves), especially after we all went through the process of accepting the 2008 special, BoG and Fukkatsu no F as direct canon continuations of DBZ, after 11 years of Dragonball inactivity; having to reverse the entire thing, especially so soon after each movie was released (2 years and a few months, respectively) was both weird AND difficult, but I'm well over that by now. One of the things that we over-discussed in here before the series debuted was the need (or if it was the right way to do it or not) for telling almost the exact same events in DBSuper when compared to BoG, in pretty much the exact same circumstances with some changes and natural additions here and there, although at a different timing. With this in mind, and if there's any logic to their decisions, we can only postulate that they initially intended BoG to be THE real canon continuation of DBZ's Majin Buu arc before they even thought of another series, and after the movie did so well at all levels and they realized just how much potential Beerus, Whis and the concept of Super Saiya-jin God had, coupled with their decision to go for an entirely new series, mixed/amalgamated everything into one big move: to indeed go further with a full-fledged series, but having the first part(s) of it retelling the events, characters and stages of BoG retold/(re)introduced without the time restraints typical of a movie (even a larger one), which would mean that, if they could back in time, they probably would have chosen NOT to release BoG at all and instead have Beerus, Whis and the rest of the characters and events depicted in the movie introduced for the very first time in the series, since a large chunk of fans is and will continue to be complaining about how disappointing it is to dedicate some 10-12 episodes to retelling events which we've already seen in the movie, with some minor changes and additions here and there, and they must pretty be aware of that degree of disappointment, or at least they're capable of foreseeing it.

It's not the first time I undertake this pretty simple exercise, but until further notice, this is the sequence of canon events in the Dragonball Universe (not counting off-screen events which happened thousands or millions of years ago, referred to throughout DBZ, but only events which we've actually seen on-screen):
1 - Bardock Special
2- DB
3 - DBZ Saiya-jin and Freeza arcs
4 - (alternate timeline) Trunks Special
5 - DBZ Jinzouningen and Cell arcs
6 - Movie 9 (debatable)
7 - Majin Buu arc
8 - First two/three episodes of DBSuper
9 - DBSuper's Beerus arc
10 - DBSuper's Freeza arc
11 - DBSuper's 6th Universe arc
12 - last 3 episodes of DBZ (we've also been over-debating whether or not they'll retcon that last Tenkaichi Budokai and the introduction of Uub both in this thread and in others as well, but at this particular stage they remain canon, as nothing so far indicates otherwise - that shouldn't mean they won't retcon it or completely "erase" those events from the timeline entirely in the rather near future, though)

You are forgetting Jaco and DB Minus. The Bardock special is not canon anymore.

[Hellspawn28]

Why not include movie 13, Wrath of the Dragon, if you include Movie 9? It could happen right before Super without contradiction, I think (unless they give a precise date in the movie).

Movie 13 can't fit now since there is no way that Hoi can make his wish to free Tapion out of the box so soon after the last wish was made. It would take months after the last wish was made for the Dragon Ball's to return back to normal.

[Doctor.]

Why not include movie 13, Wrath of the Dragon, if you include Movie 9? It could happen right before Super without contradiction, I think (unless they give a precise date in the movie).

Movie 13 can't fit now since there is no way that Hoi can make his wish to free Tapion out of the box so soon after the last wish was made. It would take months after the last wish was made for the Dragon Ball's to return back to normal.

If Super takes place 4 years after Boo like BoG did, then it can still fit in.

[MaGyunia]

Why not include movie 13, Wrath of the Dragon, if you include Movie 9? It could happen right before Super without contradiction, I think (unless they give a precise date in the movie).

Movie 13 can't fit now since there is no way that Hoi can make his wish to free Tapion out of the box so soon after the last wish was made. It would take months after the last wish was made for the Dragon Ball's to return back to normal.

If Super takes place 4 years after Boo like BoG did, then it can still fit in.

But it doesn't, it takes place 6 months after the defeat of Kid Buu. Besides, if Movie 13 happened at all after any stage of DBSuper, why would Vegeta suddenly change back to his Majin Buu arc clothes, which is pretty obvious he only chose for the Tenkaichi Budokai and was stuck with them for the rest of the saga, and why would Goku use his Super Saiya-jin 3 stage? It COULD take place right after Kid Buu's defeat if it hadn't been for the inconsistency with the usage of the Dragon Balls Hellspawn28 and I mentioned.

[Doctor.]

If it takes place 6 months after Boo, then there's a plot hole and I doubt they wouldn't notice it. If Videl is pregnant, then it pretty much confirms it isn't 6 months post Boo. Saying M13 doesn't fit because there's an inconsistency with the DB usage but saying Super fits when the same thing is present is having double standards.

[MaGyunia]

You are forgetting Jaco and DB Minus. The Bardock special is not canon anymore.

How come? I'm referring to the Bardock TV Special made back in 1990, not Episode of Bardock, which is obviously non-canon and I didn't include in the list/sequence.

If it takes place 6 months after Boo, then there's a plot hole and I doubt they wouldn't notice it. If Videl is pregnant, then it pretty much confirms it isn't 6 months post Boo. Saying M13 doesn't fit because there's an inconsistency with the DB usage but saying Super fits when the same thing is present is having double standards.

Or it just means that they're changing the timing at which Pan is actually born, thus retconning the last episodes of DBZ, after having already changed the timing at which events take place in BoG.