TheUltimateNinja wrote:I can't believe Goku would waste a Super DB wish on that when he could gather the Earth or Namek sets in an instant.
I don't think Goku really cares.
So you would think Goku cares more about giving 17 a boat than bringing back those who were erased? Wow
Yes, everyone, Goku especially, has been annoyingly portrayed as apathetic in regards to the consequences of the tournament.
TheUltimateNinja wrote:Eventually he's going to have to screw 17 over once he decides he wants to wish the other universes back. Also, he's likely going to make the same promise when he meets Freeza as well.
I don't think he cares enough to wish the universes back and the deal with Freeza is that he's the one that has to wish himself back.
So you would think Goku cares more about giving 17 a boat than bringing back those who were erased? Wow
Yes, everyone, Goku especially, has been annoyingly portrayed as apathetic in regards to the consequences of the tournament.
Goku did imply he'd be wishing the others back when he told Caulifla and Kale they'd do this again sometime and obviously that wouldn't be possible if they don't exist.
TheUltimateNinja wrote:Goku did imply he'd be wishing the others back when he told Caulifla and Kale they'd do this again sometime and obviously that wouldn't be possible if they don't exist.
Honestly just think that's Toei's poor writing at play. He's been saying throughout the tournament he doesn't really have a wish. He offered his wish to #17, then says to Brianne he'll give it to Gohan or Chi-Chi. Even if he's implying he'll wish Caulifla and Kale back to life, that's the first instance of him hinting at wishing anyone back and it's a selfish one; he'll wish U6 back out of a desire to fight them again, not because he thinks the conditions of the tournament are ruthless and unjust.
TheUltimateNinja wrote:Goku did imply he'd be wishing the others back when he told Caulifla and Kale they'd do this again sometime and obviously that wouldn't be possible if they don't exist.
Honestly just think that's Toei's poor writing at play. He's been saying throughout the tournament he doesn't really have a wish. He offered his wish to #17, then says to Brianne he'll give it to Gohan or Chi-Chi. Even if he's implying he'll wish Caulifla and Kale back to life, that's the first instance of him hinting at wishing anyone back and it's a selfish one; he'll wish U6 back out of a desire to fight them again, not because he thinks the conditions of the tournament are ruthless and unjust.
Maybe Goku really has become evil and he's telling everyone what they want to hear.
TheUltimateNinja wrote:
But even after that Kuririn says that Freeza probably would have betrayed them if Gohan didn't realize his plan which means that Freeza could have beaten Gohan for real if he wanted.
No, it doesn't. It just means that Freeza could have went full turncoat. That doesn't equate to Freeza being stronger than Gohan. Whether Freeza could have beaten Gohan at full power is left ambiguous.
I really doubt Freeza would foolishly get himself killed yet again, he must have been able to win if he was willing to try it.
We'll never truly know.
Last edited by Lord Beerus on Sat Dec 16, 2017 7:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Spoiler:
Akira Toriyama wrote:My policy is to try and forget things once they’re over. Since if I don’t discard the old and focus on what’s new, I’ll overload my brain capacity. I still haven’t lived down going, “Who the heck is Tao Pai-pai?” that one time I was talking with Ei’ichiro Oda-kun. But the fact that there are still people reading the series after all this time… All I can say is; “thank you.” Really, that’s all.
Akira Toriyama wrote:Drawing Dragon Ball again reminded me of two things--how much I love it, and how much I never want to do it again.
Kunzait_83 wrote:And if you're upset because all this new material completely invalidates the tabletop RPG rulebook-sized statistical system and flowchart for the characters' "canonical Power Levels" that you'd been working on painstakingly for the last bunch of years now... well I don't think there's a kind, non-blunt way of saying this, but that's 100% entirely your own misguided fault for buying so deeply into all this nonsensical garbage in the first place. And that you also have IMMENSELY skewed and comically backwards priorities in what you think is most important and needed to make a good Dragon Ball story.
Zephyr wrote:Goodness, they wrote idiotic drivel in a children's cartoon meant to advertise toys!? Again!? For the ninetieth episode in a row!? Somebody stop the presses! We have to voice our concern over these Super important issues!
Kamiccolo9 wrote:Fair enough, I concede. Sean Schemmel probably has some kind of hidden talent. Maybe he is an expert at Minesweeper. You're right; calling him "talentless" wasn't fair.
Michsi wrote: ↑Mon Jul 04, 2022 11:29 amIn Super Piccolo got yelled off the stage by Vegeta in the U6 Tournament arc and lost to Jiminy Cricket in the ToP , he deserved 15 new transformations with his theme song played by Metallica in the background.
TheUltimateNinja wrote:Maybe Goku really has become evil and he's telling everyone what they want to hear.
Would honestly be a lot more interesting than whatever the fuck Toei is doing with him now. They introduced the plot point that Goku's reckless battle boner is responsible for the universe's destruction and that they all see him as a hazard at best and evil scumbag at worst because of it, only to forget it exists a few episodes later. And Toyotaro introduced it only to shut it down like 3 pages later by having characters state he's responsible for their chance of survival, just to make sure we know he "dindu nuffin, Gokuu-san can do no wrong and you should pray to him every night."
TheUltimateNinja wrote:Maybe Goku really has become evil and he's telling everyone what they want to hear.
Would honestly be a lot more interesting than whatever the fuck Toei is doing with him now. They introduced the plot point that Goku's reckless battle boner is responsible for the universe's destruction and that they all see him as a hazard at best and evil scumbag at worst because of it, only to forget it exists a few episodes later. And Toyotaro introduced it only to shut it down like 3 pages later by having characters state he's responsible for their chance of survival, just to make sure we know he "dindu nuffin, Gokuu-san can do no wrong and you should pray to him every night."
As much as people hate the idea of evil Goku for being cliche, it'd definitely be the most interesting Super has been. If Goku actually does turn out to be evil in this tournament it would be a total shock and no one would be able to predict what happens next.
TheUltimateNinja wrote:Maybe Goku really has become evil and he's telling everyone what they want to hear.
Would honestly be a lot more interesting than whatever the fuck Toei is doing with him now. They introduced the plot point that Goku's reckless battle boner is responsible for the universe's destruction and that they all see him as a hazard at best and evil scumbag at worst because of it, only to forget it exists a few episodes later. And Toyotaro introduced it only to shut it down like 3 pages later by having characters state he's responsible for their chance of survival, just to make sure we know he "dindu nuffin, Gokuu-san can do no wrong and you should pray to him every night."
They didn't 'forget' since the universes still hate him and why everyone keeps attacking U7. Even in the manga, people are miffed at Goku for starting the tournament and certainly not saying you pray to him.
Last edited by HeroR on Sat Dec 16, 2017 7:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.
TheUltimateNinja wrote:Maybe Goku really has become evil and he's telling everyone what they want to hear.
Would honestly be a lot more interesting than whatever the fuck Toei is doing with him now. They introduced the plot point that Goku's reckless battle boner is responsible for the universe's destruction and that they all see him as a hazard at best and evil scumbag at worst because of it, only to forget it exists a few episodes later. And Toyotaro introduced it only to shut it down like 3 pages later by having characters state he's responsible for their chance of survival, just to make sure we know he "dindu nuffin, Gokuu-san can do no wrong and you should pray to him every night."
As much as people hate the idea of evil Goku for being cliche, it'd definitely be the most interesting Super has been. If Goku actually does turn out to be evil in this tournament it would be a total shock and no one would be able to predict what happens next.
They don't even need to make him evil. Just acknowledge that his reckless behavior is a danger to the universe and place him in an antagonist's position and force him to learn with his mistakes; that would already be the most interesting thing they've done with the character in decades. That's how I thought his character arc seemed to be going this tournament, and it's what I thought the "Something terrible happens!" promotion about UI seemed to be hinting at, but it seems like it was all pointless since the plot point was completely dropped in the anime and it's been whitewashed in the manga.
HeroR wrote:They didn't 'forget' since the universes still hate him and why everyone keeps attacking U7.
They don't hate him. The last characters, besides Toppo, who hated him, U9, were erased two episodes into the tournament. The other characters target U7 because.
Doctor. wrote:
They don't even need to make him evil. Just acknowledge that his reckless behavior is a danger to the universe and place him in an antagonist's position and force him to learn with his mistakes; that would already be the most interesting thing they've done with the character in decades. That's how I thought his character arc seemed to be going this tournament, and it's what I thought the "Something terrible happens!" promotion about UI seemed to be hinting at, but it seems like it was all pointless since the plot point was completely dropped in the anime and it's been whitewashed in the manga.
What's strange about is that manga jiren would have been more suited if they continued the evil goku plot line sadly like you mentioned is been forgotten in the anime and whitewashed in the manga.
Doctor. wrote:
Would honestly be a lot more interesting than whatever the fuck Toei is doing with him now. They introduced the plot point that Goku's reckless battle boner is responsible for the universe's destruction and that they all see him as a hazard at best and evil scumbag at worst because of it, only to forget it exists a few episodes later. And Toyotaro introduced it only to shut it down like 3 pages later by having characters state he's responsible for their chance of survival, just to make sure we know he "dindu nuffin, Gokuu-san can do no wrong and you should pray to him every night."
As much as people hate the idea of evil Goku for being cliche, it'd definitely be the most interesting Super has been. If Goku actually does turn out to be evil in this tournament it would be a total shock and no one would be able to predict what happens next.
They don't even need to make him evil. Just acknowledge that his reckless behavior is a danger to the universe and place him in an antagonist's position and force him to learn with his mistakes; that would already be the most interesting thing they've done with the character in decades. That's how I thought his character arc seemed to be going this tournament, and it's what I thought the "Something terrible happens!" promotion about UI seemed to be hinting at, but it seems like it was all pointless since the plot point was completely dropped in the anime and it's been whitewashed in the manga.
HeroR wrote:They didn't 'forget' since the universes still hate him and why everyone keeps attacking U7.
They don't hate him. The last characters, besides Toppo, who hated him, U9, were erased two episodes into the tournament. The other characters target U7 because.
Yeah, the universes do hate him and they expressed they're dislike towards Goku and U7 by extension during their god meeting. Only U2 Goddess of Destruction showed any positive feelings towards Goku, even when Vados pointed out that they owed Goku.
The plot point wasn't dropped, it just didn't go in the direction you thought it would.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.
HeroR wrote:Yeah, the universes do hate him and they expressed they're dislike towards Goku during their god meeting.
Which was over 20 episodes ago, before the tournament even began. Dropped, like I said.
HeroR wrote:The plot point wasn't dropped, it just didn't go in the direction you thought it would.
No, considering that nobody really acknowledges Goku's fault in the tournament anymore, that the characters aren't expressing the hate they should be feeling in regards to Goku and that Goku feels a grand total of 0 guilt for what's happening leads me to believe that, yes, it's been dropped.
HeroR wrote:Yeah, the universes do hate him and they expressed they're dislike towards Goku during their god meeting.
Which was over 20 episodes ago, before the tournament even began. Dropped, like I said.
HeroR wrote:The plot point wasn't dropped, it just didn't go in the direction you thought it would.
No, considering that nobody really acknowledges Goku's fault in the tournament anymore, that the characters aren't expressing the hate they should be feeling in regards to Goku and that Goku feels a grand total of 0 guilt for what's happening leads me to believe that, yes, it's been dropped.
But it wasn't dropped. It just isn't pushed all the time, like do we really need reminder after this was smacked into our faces early on, but the effects are still there since everyone keep targeting U7. And Goku wouldn't be feeling guilt even if people expression their dislike towards him, he certainly didn't before when he was called everything but the devil to his face. Why would that suddenly change now?
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.
HeroR wrote:But it wasn't dropped. It just isn't pushed all the time, like do we really need reminder after this was smacked into our faces early on, but the effects are still there since everyone keep targeting U7. And Goku wouldn't be feeling guilt even if people expression their dislike towards him, he certainly didn't before when he was called everything but the devil to his face. Why would that suddenly change now?
Even if Goku doesn't feel guilty because of millions dying, then he should feel guilty after his friends call him out on his bullshit... which they aren't doing but they should. If it wasn't dropped, it's been terribly handled to the point it feels like it's been dropped. It doesn't change much.
Doctor. wrote:
Even if Goku doesn't feel guilty because of millions dying, then he should feel guilty after his friends call him out on his bullshit... which they aren't doing but they should. If it wasn't dropped, it's been terribly handled to the point it feels like it's been dropped. It doesn't change much.
It just isn't as forefront, but it certainly not dropped since Goku's attitude is the reason why the other universes want U7's heads and keep attacking them over going after other universes.
Why would his friends care about other universes, especially when their necks are on the chopping blocks?
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.
HeroR wrote:Why would his friends care about other universes, especially when their necks are on the chopping blocks?
Because, like any normal human being, you care when billions of people are killed unfairly due to the direct and indirect actions of your friend? I know Vegeta and Freeza are on the team, but when the rest of your team consists of people like Gohan, Tenshinhan, Roshi and Kuririn, you shouldn't be asking this question.
Doctor. wrote:
Because, like any normal human being, you care when billions of people are killed unfairly due to the direct and indirect actions of your friend? I know Vegeta and Freeza are on the team, but when the rest of your team consists of people like Gohan, Tenshinhan, Roshi and Kuririn, you shouldn't be asking this question.
Most 'normal' people would care about saving their asses first and then have survival guilt afterwards, not before. U7 is in danger of being erased, they don't have time to worry about the other universes being on the chopping block, especially when those other universes have no problem wiping you from the face of the Earth. And Goku's actions indirectly saved them, so blaming him for given you a remote chance to save your butt comes off as being stupid.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.
There's isn't much to speak about this chapter, it was extremely similar to the anime episodes.
One interesting thing is how Toyotarõ basically spoiled the tournament with the Oob scene. Dende says Goku has to win and points at Oob. Not that it's any surprise, the end of the manga has been floating above Super like a black cloud but this is literally pointing towards it.
I think Toyotarõ is telling us what's coming next; next not eventually.
#17 is basically the same as his anime version. Seems like Mr.Toriyama almost completely wrote this part.
What else? Oh, #17 power is much clearer here, in the realm of SSJ3. Yamcha's joke is much, much better than the anime. There's it's was just cruel.
I'm actually intrigued about Gohan he's been almost completely ignored in the manga. One entire chapter dedicated to him would be great.
LightBing wrote:There's isn't much to speak about this chapter, it was extremely similar to the anime episodes.
One interesting thing is how Toyotarõ basically spoiled the tournament with the Oob scene. Dende says Goku has to win and points at Oob. Not that it's any surprise, the end of the manga has been floating above Super like a black cloud but this is literally pointing towards it.
I think Toyotarõ is telling us what's coming next; next not eventually.
#17 is basically the same as his anime version. Seems like Mr.Toriyama almost completely wrote this part.
What else? Oh, #17 power is much clearer here, in the realm of SSJ3. Yamcha's joke is much, much better than the anime. There's it's was just cruel.
I'm actually intrigued about Gohan he's been almost completely ignored in the manga. One entire chapter dedicated to him would be great.
17 barely even fought SSJ3 Goku, you can hardly conclude they're on the same level.