Fanmanga - DB Multiverse

[TheGmGoken]

Dragonball Forfeitverse:

Spoiler:

I return to this thread and see this? Best thing MV related in a LONG time.

[FoolsGil]

@Regarder

Yeah, the story would have been tighter overall if there was a smaller cast of fighters instead of an obscene amount of forfeits.

That doesn't make any sense.

a) the forfeits are only a few; b) the forfeits hardly affect anything because they only take a page or so.

There was actually five forfeits in the first portion of the tournament alone before the match began. But if they weren't going to fight, what was the point of having a story where they would sign up?

It's tough, slaving away to make an ongoing story and keeping artists on, year after year, so I don't blame him too much in any case.

The tournament would have been the first thing Saligir outlined before he even made the web site. Him slaving over an ongoing story and having artists to keep track of is after the fact. Plus you brought it up.

[Skar]

Maybe "Snower" sounded better in the French version. I don't really see why they needed to namedrop a third made-up Freeza relative, though. They only mentioned Cold and Polar in the earlier pages.
Now although me to introduce the greatest snow-theme-named character of all time: SNOWFLAME!!!

I had to look up that character to check if he was real XP. I wonder how they came up with him?
DC Comics Executive: We need some new villains!
Assistant: Who would you recommend sir?
Executive: You know that new illegal drug that's sweeping the nation? How about a villain who uses cocaine to his advantage!
Assistant: Uh that's ingenious sir.
Executive: Indeed plus it will teach children that only evil people use drugs. Let's see those parents claim that comic books are bad for kids now!

@Regarder

Yeah, the story would have been tighter overall if there was a smaller cast of fighters instead of an obscene amount of forfeits.

Well the total number of contestants would have to be a double of 2 for it to even out at the end (double proportion? Not sure what the term for 2, 4, 8, 16, 32, etc numbers). To cut down the number of contestants they would have to go down to the next double 32 so that would leave out half of the contestants.

I agree it felt like a waste to have so many forfeits but I guess that was so some contestants could have close matches in the first round and the really strong fighters could skip over matches without having to waste time on them one-shotting their opponents.

What I liked about U10 was that it showed the sorta irony of Frieza destroying Planet Vegeta. It was only when he met the Saiyans and destroyed their planet that it led to the circumstances allowing Goku and Vegeta to reach SSJ and unlock more of their Saiyan potential. In U10 Goku was a weak low-class who was already dead long before the tournament and Vegeta was weaker than Saiyan saga Vegeta. In U13 Goku and Vegeta are at least SSJ1 but Goku is still weaker than Vegeta. It only after hitting his head in U18 and losing his Saiyan memories that Goku was able to reach a Saiyan's full potential (assuming there won't be a SSJ4 in DBM). I don't know if all this was intentional but I thought it was cool.

By the way have you seen my version of Bojack's backstory ?

In fairness, half of them are caused by Ye Olde Saiyans and the Nameks leaving. I do wonder whether Salagir had planned that from the beginning though. I mean, it flows from the fact that they learn they are overmatched, but at the same time, there are a lot of fighters in that Universe who supposedly would have had fights, so it's also a way to rush through things too. Should that Universe have been in to begin with? We got a good Reccoom Vs Nail fight out of it at least.

I've heard that most of the contestants of U3 were chosen after the tournament already began. That's why Tapion was the only one in the first half of round 1 while Bardock, Raichi, and King Piccolo had their matches towards the end of that round. It's possible Salagir didn't plan for that many U10 contestants from the beginning. As the tournament went on he might've made some changes and decided to use the U10 forfeits to make it easier to setup longer fights in later rounds.

[Regarder]

The tournament would have been the first thing Saligir outlined before he even made the web site.

Bad planning? I guess he was making it up as he went along.

Him slaving over an ongoing story and having artists to keep track of is after the fact. Plus you brought it up.

It's just my desperate disclaimer of "I'M APPRECIATIVE!"

[rereboy]

There was actually five forfeits in the first portion of the tournament alone before the match began. But if they weren't going to fight, what was the point of having a story where they would sign up?

Because its ridiculous to believe that in a multiverse tournament such as this there would only be guys capable of rivaling end of Z Goku or stronger. The weaker guys in the DBM tournament mainly function as the weak guys from the preliminaries of the Tournaments in the original manga: to provide context.

But those guys didn't just do that, they also provided valuable moments for DBM. Nail gave up, but he gave DBM a good fight with Reccome before he did. The universe with the primitive saiyans didn't win any fight and they all gave up, but they were useful to give Goku and Vegeta some obvious but cool moments by contextualizing their power compared to them and to have some light humor with Goten and Trunks talking to them. Other moments like Nappa enraging Freeza or an alien that can't fight because it hasn't been born yet work as humor breathers, add layers of detail to DBM and take very little time to go through.

You are basically criticizing DBM for having some detail to the tournament, instead of just having a tournament between Gast, Ultimate Buu, Goku, Vegeta, Vegetto, Broly, Cell and Gotenks... Which doesn't make sense.

[FoolsGil]

You are basically criticizing DBM for having some detail to the tournament, instead of just having a tournament between Gast, Ultimate Buu, Goku, Vegeta, Vegetto, Broly, Cell and Gotenks...

That's not...completely inaccurate...Yes, removing the forfeits would have gotten to the more explosive fights quicker, but that doesn't mean I'm only here for that. I enjoyed the mismatch battles of Syd vs Vegeta, and the ridiculousness of 18 vs Arale and before that 18 vs Yamcha and Gast vs King Piccolo I just didn't like the forfeits, and if there were less competitors who gave up, there would have been more fights in the first round, and the more explosive fights would be far closer.

[rereboy]

I don't think what you are saying makes any sense... To remove the forfeits, you would have to either remove these characters and lose the advantages that they provided, or make them stupid enough to always fight and lose easily in a single blow or two instead of realizing just how outmatched they are, wasting more time with it then just by having them forfeit. How exactly would DBM become better in either of these scenarios...? How would having more fights in the first round in which those weaker characters are defeated in a second or two make DBM better...?

What makes perfect sense is for a tournament such as this to have at least some fighters way weaker than the main cast, and it also makes perfect sense for them to forfeit once they realize they can't compete. This provides context and detail for the tournament. Furthermore, their presence allows for some cool moments and some humor.

DBM did this with these characters, gaining in context and in detail, and it also managed to produce some humor and some cool moments with them. And it did it without wasting much time with it.

[FoolsGil]

I don't think what you are saying makes any sense... To remove the forfeits, you would have to either remove these characters and lose the advantages that they provided, or make them stupid enough to always fight and lose easily in a single blow or two instead of realizing just how outmatched they are, wasting more time with it then just by having them forfeit. How exactly would DBM become better in either of these scenarios...? How would having more fights in the first round in which those weaker characters are defeated in a second or two make DBM better...?

Let me explain myself better with an example. In the current series 17 and Tapion moved forward without a match in the first round because their opponents forfeited. I'm saying don't write the forfeitures into the tournament and have 17 and Tapion fight each other instead.

What makes perfect sense is for a tournament such as this to have at least some fighters way weaker than the main cast, and it also makes perfect sense for them to forfeit once they realize they can't compete. This provides context and detail for the tournament. Furthermore, their presence allows for some cool moments and some humor.

Like I said before, I had no problem with the weaker fighters having mismatched battles.

[Skar]

Let me explain myself better with an example. In the current series 17 and Tapion moved forward without a match in the first round because their opponents forfeited. I'm saying don't write the forfeitures into the tournament and have 17 and Tapion fight each other instead.

I don't know Hirudegarn could one-shot #17 as easily as the U10 Saiyan who forfeited against Tapion. I think they just wanted to keep the fact that Tapion had control over Hirudegarn a secret until he had a worthwhile opponent. Master Krillin was skilled enough to come up with a strategy and last a little longer than someone else that much weaker than Hirudegarn. The SSJ3+ fighters could one-shot like 90% of the other contestants so many of their fights would've only lasted one page even if their opponent chose not to forfeit.

For example, if in U10 all the Saiyans were SSJ1 then their matches would've been almost the same. Goku would've easily defeated Mahissu, Vegeta would have no trouble against King Vegeta, U18 Pan would have some trouble against U10 Bardock if he was a SSJ but she might unlock SSJ1 against him instead of Kakarotto, Hirudegarn would one-shot Caracoru, assuming XXI has some hidden powers other than teleporting his opponent then he'll defeat Lumaca, and Neko Majin could easily defeat Romanesco. I think the only way for there to be less forfeits is if the U10 characters were SSJ2 tier or above so that they would believe they stand a chance and so there fight would last more than one page.

[rereboy]

Let me explain myself better with an example. In the current series 17 and Tapion moved forward without a match in the first round because their opponents forfeited. I'm saying don't write the forfeitures into the tournament and have 17 and Tapion fight each other instead.

That's you wishing for more interesting matches in the tournament, not less forfeits. You are confusing the two subjects. What you really would prefer is for #17 to have an interesting fight instead of a easy win and for Tapion to have an interesting match instead of an easy win.

Any forfeit will feel like a missed opportunity because we can always think "oh, what if instead of a forfeit there was a interesting match here?", but such line of thought is short-sighted because it basically means that the tournament wouldn't be able to have any fighter forfeit or any easy win since anyone could stick such logic to any of those moments. Kind of like saying that its a missed opportunity for the original manga of Dragon Ball to not have more interesting matches in the preliminaries of the tournaments.

[TonyTheTiger]

The forfeits are actually very important because of XXI and Vegetto. In his first match, Vegetto demonstrated his godly power and walked away as the clear favorite to win the tournament. This was deliberate. To preserve the drama of Vegetto's eventual defeat, XXI had to remain hidden until the second round (this arguably holds true for Tapion, too, since his control over Hirudegarn was meant to be a surprise). The only way for that to happen was to make sure whoever was going to fight XXI in the first round wouldn't be there. Since it would have seemed way too forced to have the only person unable or unwilling to fight be the one person who was slated to fight XXI, Salagir did two things. First, he established early on that forfeiting was an option with a match in which a forfeit was not only reasonable but the intelligent choice (Jeece vs. Freeza). Then he had the entire Universe 10 suffer a series of bad losses in order to give them all reason to walk off. Taken as a whole, this justified XXI staying hidden without making it seem too contrived. It's actually really well plotted.

Furthermore, remember that upon XXI's eventual reveal, Old Kai was surprised and implied he knew of XXI once his name was mentioned in the second round. This tiny bit of foreshadowing wouldn't have worked had XXI just been standing there for all to see. And Old Kai's reaction would have been at least a little undermined had the audience known who XXI was before Old Kai showed up.

As for I'K'L, I think that was a set up for a brick joke. I imagine the very last page of the comic would have something like a completely empty arena with him finally being born and ready to fight long after everyone went home.

[Skar]

The forfeits are actually very important because of XXI and Vegetto. In his first match, Vegetto demonstrated his godly power and walked away as the clear favorite to win the tournament. This was deliberate. To preserve the drama of Vegetto's eventual defeat, XXI had to remain hidden until the second round (this arguably holds true for Tapion, too, since his control over Hirudegarn was meant to be a surprise). The only way for that to happen was to make sure whoever was going to fight XXI in the first round wouldn't be there. Since it would have seemed way too forced to have the only person unable or unwilling to fight be the one person who was slated to fight XXI, Salagir did two things. First, he established early on that forfeiting was an option with a match in which a forfeit was not only reasonable but the intelligent choice (Jeece vs. Freeza). Then he had the entire Universe 10 suffer a series of bad losses in order to give them all reason to walk off. Taken as a whole, this justified XXI staying hidden without making it seem too contrived. It's actually really well plotted.

Good points I never looked at it that way with XXI. I knew he had to remain a mystery until his first real match but never considered how forced it would be if his opponent was the only one who forfeited.

[Saiga]

The thing with I'K'L was a reference to Yu Yu Hakusho, where someone registered an yet-to-be-born fighter into the Makai Tournament. That fighter's son was born in time, I'K'L would just be the consequence of that not happening.

[rereboy]

The thing with I'K'L was a reference to Yu Yu Hakusho, where someone registered an yet-to-be-born fighter into the Makai Tournament. That fighter's son was born in time, I'K'L would just be the consequence of that not happening.

It might also have been a reference to that fighter in DBZ filler that wraps himself in a cocoon to transform but he would take a long time to emerge so its considered a forfeit.

[FoolsGil]

The forfeits are actually very important because of XXI and Vegetto. In his first match, Vegetto demonstrated his godly power and walked away as the clear favorite to win the tournament. This was deliberate. To preserve the drama of Vegetto's eventual defeat, XXI had to remain hidden until the second round (this arguably holds true for Tapion, too, since his control over Hirudegarn was meant to be a surprise). The only way for that to happen was to make sure whoever was going to fight XXI in the first round wouldn't be there. Since it would have seemed way too forced to have the only person unable or unwilling to fight be the one person who was slated to fight XXI, Salagir did two things. First, he established early on that forfeiting was an option with a match in which a forfeit was not only reasonable but the intelligent choice (Jeece vs. Freeza). Then he had the entire Universe 10 suffer a series of bad losses in order to give them all reason to walk off. Taken as a whole, this justified XXI staying hidden without making it seem too contrived. It's actually really well plotted.

I hadn't thought of that. It may not have been as exciting or what have you, but that is smart writing.

[SSJ God Gogeta]

[goku1234]

[SSJ God Gogeta]

Didn't see that coming....

[rereboy]

Buu probably planned everything. Probably even his attempt to attack everybody was a plan he came up with at the time so that he could appear subdued and move around more freely. And he obviously isn't trapped at all right now, the Grand Kaioshin is surely under his control.

[FoolsGil]

And we're back...How did Buu even escape? Wasn't Gast's ability inescapable? And couldn't Vegetto or Gast notice by power signature that Buu is still free?