Episode #0217 (18 April 2010)

[Silver Sinspawn]

Here's the thing that has been annoying me for years. Why do we never see 16 again?
If 19 was a robot too, why do we see him in GT?
Why do we never see 16 in GT or Fusion Reborn?

EDIT: Don't respond with GT plothole, please

[Gaffer Tape]

I don't know if there's any other way to respond than GT plothole. Well, first of all, let me ask, as I've not seen these episodes of GT. Does #19 come back as a rebuilt living version (by Gero or Myuu or whoever) or do we see him in the afterlife? If the former, it's not a plothole. I guess they just never felt it worth rebuilding him. If the latter, I'd have to say it is a plothole because why would a purely mechanical being have a soul to cross over into the next life? Might as well have dead toasters in heaven for all that's worth. Unless GT is going for some really deep philosophical discussion on whether a human-like robot can achieve humanity... but I highly doubt that.

[Bura]

I don't know if there's any other way to respond than GT plothole. Well, first of all, let me ask, as I've not seen these episodes of GT. Does #19 come back as a rebuilt living version (by Gero or Myuu or whoever) or do we see him in the afterlife? If the former, it's not a plothole. I guess they just never felt it worth rebuilding him. If the latter, I'd have to say it is a plothole because why would a purely mechanical being have a soul to cross over into the next life? Might as well have dead toasters in heaven for all that's worth. Unless GT is going for some really deep philosophical discussion on whether a human-like robot can achieve humanity... but I highly doubt that.

#19 comes back with all the other villains from hell AKA the afterlife. Meaning he had died. Which is indeed a plothole because #19 was never alive to begin with.

[Adamant]

Granted, we wouldn't have gotten the uplifting denoument of Trunks saving his own future, but, hey, can't have everything, can we?

Gohan could've taken Trunks' time machine to his future and destroyed 17, 18 and Cell there, giving Trunks a " he might have died for it, but his actions ended up saving two timelines" conclusion. One of Trunks' reasons for going back in time was indeed that, if no easy way to destroy 17 and 18 is found in the past, there's always a Goku there he can take back to his future to clean up.

[Gaffer Tape]

Good point. Everybody wins! Let's kill Trunks!!!

[jjgp1112]

I've always saw it as Gohan basically needing a wake-up call. His friends are being beaten to death around him, but he just can't seem to get that right "kick" to push him beyond his limits.
I've never saw it as Gohan caring about #16 as much as his friends, more along the lines of Gohan seeing #16 get stomped as a wake-up call, Cell will kill everybody, just as he killed #16 right before Gohan's eyes. He doesn't care, he can't be reasoned with and his friends lives are absolutely worthless to him. They will die. To me, this is what pushes Gohan over the edge, no personal attachment to #16, just the sudden realization that his friends are fucked, and there's no reason to hold back anymore.

This is the way I've always looked at it. 16 represented a good-natured person that Cell would kill with no regard, and he realized that he can't just sit there and watch Cell kill people anymore.

[Piccolo Daimaoh]

Well, I still believe that the transformation was strange. Why 16?
Why not Piccolo, or Goku, or Krillin?
Someone he had an emotional connection with maybe?

100% agreed. That's what really brought the transformation down for me emotionally. If it was Piccolo that got killed by Cell, it would've worked much better for me.

[johnboy1]

Killing Piccolo instead of 16 would have been a far more effective move. I mean, think about it. What was the single most important thing about Piccolo, in terms of the service he provided to the story? He was linked to Kami, who was linked to the Dragon Balls. Piccolo dying means no Dragon Balls, and no Dragon Balls means no resurrection for those lost in battle. Hell, in Trunks' timeline, the death of Piccolo is arguably the single greatest contributing factor to the state of the world's affairs, because a resurrected Vegeta with some RoS&T training and the element of surprise could possibly have ended the Android crisis long before it reached apocalyptic levels. Depending on how much the training helped him, he might have been able to take on first-form Cell and avert THAT crisis as well.

Speculation aside, the absorption of Kami and the reintroduction of Dende had decreased Piccolo's value to the team immensely by the time the Cell Games started. In essence, he had become just as expendable as the other lower-tier fighters. Killing him off permanently would not only have been a safe move, but a much more effective one to provide a catalyst for Gohan's SSJ2 transformation. As for his part in the Boo Saga, the only thing he does that, say, Tenshinhan couldn't have done just as well were

1.) Recognize Kaiôshin.
2.) Recover from being smashed into a million pieces as a statue.

As for the first point, there were several other divine beings who could have noticed Kaiôshin's presence and the story wouldn't have suffered. As for the second (jokes about "arms growing back" aside), the sequence was only there as a gag, so it could be excised without any harm to the narrative at all.

I think I've made my point clearly enough.

[Silver Sinspawn]

AND IF PICCOLO DIES, NO GT

[johnboy1]

AND IF PICCOLO DIES, NO GT

Now, now. The Black Star Dragon Balls weren't that instrumental to the plot. Baby would still be released and wreak havoc. He just wouldn't immediately find his way to Earth. Dr. Gero probably wouldn't be able to break out of Hell without Dr. Mu, but the next wish on the Dragon Balls is still going to mean bad news for the Earth. All things told, as long as someone makes a wish with the Dragon Balls, the only thing GT loses would be the search through space and the Hell insurrection. In other words, the worst parts of the series. Killing Piccolo wouldn't have erased GT. It would've improved it.