Dragonball Vs. Non Dragonball

[Goku100xKamehameha]

In the 133rd edition (September 2002) of Wizard Magazine, a hypothetical Superman vs. Goku match-up was published. Goku won the fight quite easily, not even needing to use Super Saiyan. However, the article fell under heavy criticism by upset fans. Later that year, Wizard did an open poll at the Toronto Fan Expo and New York Comicon asking attendees who would win. Over 80% said Superman would defeat Goku.

[rereboy]

Because there is no "canon" Superman.

...What? How is there no canon Superman? If there is no "canon" Superman, then there is no "non-canon" Superman to distinguish him from. I don't know about you, but the Superman I see in Blackest Night, World of New Krypton and War of the Supermen is canon. The Superman I read in Red Son, Secret Identity and Crisis on Infinite Earths is not. There has always been a distinction made between "canonicity", and it affects every character of the DCU. It has for decades.

So you think that the Superman you see in Blackest Night, World of New Krypton and War of the Supermen has coherent powers and abilities right from when he first appeared in the comics? (I`m talking about the "canon" Superman)

Superman suffers from the multiple years/decade and multiple authors syndrome. His abilities are altered to suit the plot.

For example, wolverine. His regeneration is only as effective as the author and the story wants it to be. We saw him struggling with damages from bullets and we saw him come back from a skeleton in a few seconds with no problem at all. And its the same character, just separated by authors and years. There was no cosmic event that "replaced" him with another wolverine or whatever or a good enough reason to explain the difference.

This also happens with Superman, cosmic events and Supermen from other realities aside.

So yes, it depends specifically on which Superman (and year, author and story) we are thinking about.

As for the canon issue, canon exists when there is a whole story thought by the same author(s) which has coherent continuity. Time passes, characters get coherently older, abilities and whatnot are coherent, etc, etc.

This doesn`t exist in Superman at all (or in Spider-man, or in X-men, etc). Lois Lane is practically always just as old as she ever was (passage of time issues), the abilities of the characters and their powers are dependent of the tastes of the different authors, etc.

But it does exist in Dragon Ball. The Dragon Ball manga is a coherent story by one author. Therefore, it makes sense to consider it "canon" when compared to adaptations of that story (like the anime) and innovations of those adaptations (fillers).

Since this doesn`t happen with Superman, I don`t think we can apply the "canon" classification. It doesn`t make sense, to me.
At most we can distinguish some Supermen and some stories as something from other realities or continuities, but that`s about it.

Considering a "canon" Superman is like saying that if some other author made a manga about Dragon Ball, picking up where Toriyama left off, and then later altered somewhat the power/abilities of the characters without a coherent reason to explain it, it would be as canon as Toriyama`s Dragon Ball is. To me that doesn`t make sense.

If there is a canon Superman, its the very first one that appeared all those years ago, the original superman by its original author(s).

[Questrider]

^Old, old news. (Goku 100X) You can even google up some images.

In regards to Supes VS Goku:
Since Superman has been at different "power levels" at various points of his career, why don't we just use the Superman that is current?

Q. Is the Superman from Action Comics and the self titled: Superman the same Superman? I say we go with the Superman that has the most issues since that's DC's main version.

[Savage68]

...Canon...

Look, rereboy, I really don't want to be a dick or anything.

But you're just wrong. Your understanding of canon does not apply to the DCU, or Western comics in general. Golden Age Superman is non-canon, and so is Silver Age Superman, and so is any other incarnation of Superman that has been written out of existence (or was never included in the shared timeline of the rest of DC's works). So, no, there's only one canon Superman. And there always has been. If not, you would have to explain to me what the purpose of retcons are, or why the word "canon" even exists for DC's authors.

[Kaboom]

"Goku vs Superman" all depends on WHICH incarnation of Superman versus Goku at WHAT point during the DragonBall series. There's as many different potential match-ups and outcomes as there are threads on the subject.

[Savage68]

Why would any form of Goku besides his strongest even be considered? This is a vs. debate, so why would it need to be specified as to whether or not Goku is a kid, or if he's sick, or if he's SSJ2? Wouldn't that defeat the purpose of discussing who's stronger?

[rereboy]

Look, what I was trying to say is that there isn`t a coherent continuity within Superman`s stories that allows us to compare him to Goku (who has a complete coherent continuity) without specifying just what Superman we are talking about.

The events of the DC universe and removing parts of the overall continuity like they never existed are just plot tools to be able to move the stories further and change things just like they want to. Its basically "deus ex machina" at its best.

Silver age Superman is only non-canon now. At that time, it was canon and its only considered non-canon now because it would conflict with lots of things of the current stories.

In other words, Silver age Superman is only non-canon when compared to the continuity of the current stories of Superman, as its not part of it. Which means that its only a matter of perspective.

I don`t consider that one of these incarnations of Superman is more canon or real than the other. They are simply non-canon from each other`s point of view because they are not part of each other.
Which makes us come to my conclusion that a single canon/real Superman incarnation doesn`t exist (like it exist in Dragon Ball. Its very different). All that exists is a current canon that will someday be replaced by another continuity that will exclude these current events and consider them non canon from its perspective, going by DC`s m.o..

And that`s all I was trying to say when I said that there isn`t any canon Superman. I understand perfectly well the differences between the western comics and manga and the differences in what canon means in their mediums, I assure you. I just have my own opinion about the whole thing.

That`s why its imperative to specify which Superman we are talking about.

[Savage68]

If you really insist that we need to specify, I think common sense would just point to "the canon one", since that's what we're already doing for Goku.

[rereboy]

Well, I do insist because this current canon/continuity will almost certainly be replaced by another canon/continuity in the future, so I don`t see why the current canon should have more "validity" than the previous canons/continuities to be used preferably for the Superman comparison with Goku (other than the fact that people are perhaps more familiar with the current canon/continuity).

[UristtheGreat]

The fight wouldn't even happen.

[rereboy]

The fight wouldn't even happen.
snip

That`s true

[Questrider]

^Ah...but it DID happen. And in that brief battle: Goku took the win.
Not sure how "official" that all was nor do I know WHO ultimately decided who would win....

..DC obviously ok'd the battle, right??? Does anyone know what incarnation of Superman was used?

Here’s a few questions for those who have tons of knowledge on Superman: (Since I sure as hell don't know)

1. Would all Kryptonians be as strong as Superman if they were on Earth or is he unique among his own race?
2. Does anyone know what the gravity is on Krypton? Has this info ever been disclosed?

I ask because we know that Goku (at his base) can handle 100X the gravity of Earth. And this was BEFORE the fight with Freeza.
I can only imagine how much he could handle as a SSJ3, much less his base form at the conclusion of “Z”.

I bring this up because the person who can handle the most gravity is probably the stronger of the two.
Is that a decent argument or am I way off here?

[Savage68]

Not sure how "official" that all was nor do I know WHO ultimately decided who would win....

It was fabricated by Wizard magazine. Which is completely unaffiliated with DC Comics and Shonen Jump.

I don`t see why the current canon should have more "validity" than the previous canons/continuities to be used preferably for the Superman comparison with Goku (other than the fact that people are perhaps more familiar with the current canon/continuity).

Because it's canon, and everything else is non-canon.

[Questrider]

Not sure how "official" that all was nor do I know WHO ultimately decided who would win....

It was fabricated by Wizard magazine. Which is completely unaffiliated with DC Comics and Shonen Jump.

Is that to say that both DC and Shonen Jump did NOT give their consent? If that is the case, couldn't either company sue? Or because the mag was Wizard, they both let it go since Wizard promotes both?
Simply curious as to how that all went down.

[rereboy]

Because it's canon, and everything else is non-canon.

I think that if you read my posts you`ll come to the conclusion that I understand fully well how it works. But I`m still not sure if you understood what I was trying to say.

[Savage68]

I'm trying to say that it's silly to think "it depends on which version" of Superman, when there's only one version that's relevant, same as Goku.

[Questrider]

In order to make things a bit more fair, I think we should start the argument under these conditions:

1.The Superman being used should be the “current” Superman.
2.The Goku being used should be Goku Super Saiyan 4. Or at the very least, Super Saiyan 3.

If all of Superman’s history is being included, then Goku should be given the same respect. Right?
You could say that GT is non canon, but it is CANON if we are talking about the anime canon, correct? I mean, all that shit happened, right?
Those 64 episodes weren’t a figment of my imagination?

The bottom line is this: Superman has been around for like 60 years, thus, that’s 60 years of stories that have played a part in the Superman he is today.
I think it is only fair that we include Goku’s animated history since Superman has had an unfair lead in development.

But I mean, if you guys really want to be fair, then it should really be: DBZ’s years of history versus the same amount in a Superman timeline.
Because if Goku had been around as long as Superman, he would be what: A Super Saiyan 26?

[Savage68]

GT is non-canon. If that's fair game, we could also be using Silver Age Superman, and that always makes these topics much worse.

[Questrider]

GT is non-canon. If that's fair game, we could also be using Silver Age Superman, and that always makes these topics much worse.

Well....
We really don't want to make things worse...

So, Goku SSJ3 VS The Current Superman-
Sound fair?

Maybe now the real debate can begin...?


Oh..awesome: 100.

[Kendamu]

Popeye would definitely win over Krillin. Popeye's a gag character and therefore can't truly be defeated.