Goku as the Main Character

[Rocketman]

Basically, I don't think the problem is that Goku is the main character, it's that he's effectively the ONLY character now.

Yes, he was dominant back in DB, but DB also had three huge tournament arcs where everybody else got to have plots and struggles and show off their skills. And Z obviously splintered into a bunch of character arcs running side-by-side, with Goku the first among equals (Freeza is the only major problem that Goku solves alone - Vegeta wrecks his face, he says he can't fight the Androids any better than Vegeta or Trunks, he gives up vs Cell, and barely matches a depowered Buu and has to use the Spirit Bomb).

Ever since the Buu arc ended, it's been all Goku all the time. No tournaments, no side plots, just everybody getting chumped instantly and Godku (literally Godku now) descending from Olympus to save the day. Everything unique about anybody is being stripped away - Fusion has been discarded completely, Gohan's lost both his unique black-haired battle form, now the generic end result of MOUNTAIN TRAINING (and being given to Goku for his incredible efforts of standing in the middle of a circle), and his unique rage boosts, and they keep jamming things into the 10 year gap so Uub isn't there.

[ABED]

Fusion has been discarded completely

It never seemed to be that effective in the long run, to be fair. How is Gohan's "unique" form any better? It's just his base form but really strong as a result someone dancing around him in a circle then pointing his palms towards Gohan.

Why is Goku getting the brunt of this dislike instead of GT writers or Toriyama?

By active I mean he was actually doing stuff, whether it be of significance or not. I mean, it's not like he disappeared completely until he trained with Goku. Also, the fact that he took a hiatus doesn't mean he's no longer interesting. He still had the build up from the previous sagas going for him. It's like saying Goku was no longer an interesting hero because he had a heart virus.

The strongest fighter, Goku's fighting for his life, he's not acting as chauffer.

By passing the torch, I mean passing the leading role/legacy to his son. Yes, Goku didn't technically have some blatant physical form of a torch to pass on (Although, he wouldn't have been as strong as he was if he wasn't for training with other masters) but that wasn't needed, with all the events that transpired during Goku and Gohan's part of the saga. Also, Goku always cared for protecting the earth, whether he be leading or not. Hell, one of the main reasons for him staying dead was because of Gohan's hidden power, which Goku helped unleash.

Do you think I don't know passing the torch is metaphorical? Goku training with teachers is irrelevant. Are you claiming that's how he had this torch passed? That's not what it means. Goku learned from different teachers but that was so he could become better for himself. Being the world's hero was not a position he actively sought or anyone was trying to train him to do. What about Gohan was more interesting in the role than Goku? His constant self doubt? His constant need for hand holding?

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Fusion has been discarded completely

It never seemed to be that effective in the long run, to be fair.

Gotenks failed because he was stupid, and Vegetto failed because he was unlucky. They didn't fail because it didn't make them strong enough.

[ABED]

Fusion has been discarded completely

It never seemed to be that effective in the long run, to be fair.

Gotenks failed because he was stupid, and Vegetto failed because he was unlucky. They didn't fail because it didn't make them strong enough.

I don't know if Gotenks was actually strong enough to win, but my point was that Fusion never delivered the killing blow. It was a fun technique, but unless it had lasting consequences and truly helped bring an end to something, it feels like just another cool technique, which I guess is fine. I'd rather people not make it out to be more important to the story than it truly was.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I don't know if Gotenks was actually strong enough to win, but my point was that Fusion never delivered the killing blow.

SS3 Gotenks was about to kill Boo when the time ran out. If he wasn't fucking around, he would have killed Boo before the time was up. The second time Gotenks appeared, Boo absorbed him by catching him off-guard.
Vegetto failed because he wanted to rescue his sons & Piccolo from inside Boo before killing him, but he was unlucky because the bad air inside Boo split him. Goku & Vegeta then destroyed the Potara & didn't try Fusion because they are stubborn, but if they had merged again, they would have been able to kill Boo within seconds. That's why Fusion/Potara never delivered the killing blow, not because they are not powerful enough, but because they weren't used correctly, because of bad luck, or because of Saiyan stubbornness.

[Rocketman]

Also Vegetto doesn't look enough like Goku to win, hence "fusion bad, we need to make goku stronger that is the only way!"

Now Gogeta was smart and only appeared in Super Saiyan so Toei could cross their eyes and pretend he was Goku.

[NitroEX]

I don't think Gohan's story was more important to that arc. He took part of the spotlight naturally because he's a new character,

Yes Gohan was a new character but simply being a new character doesn't entitle him to the immediate push that we saw Toriyama give him. If he was just intended to be a Robin or Nightwing like you say then Toriyama could have easily kept him at home with Chichi or relegated him to a smaller role like Krillin's. The fight with Raditz could have easily been made to play out the same way without Gohan's interference.

The Z story starts by introducing us to Gohan and immediately we see him become a story catalyst from Raditz onward. That level of involvement doesn't just happen to every new character.

Goku had just learned of his true lineage, and the central conflict was between Goku and the members of his race.

I agree that Goku's story involving the Saiyans was just as important as Gohan's because like I mentioned before, it led to him beating Freeza which IMO was were he peaked as a character. Despite that I do still think that the more relatable and interesting character development was happening with Gohan. Until Goku actually arrives to the conflicts it's mostly him in either comedic scenes, training or recovering which is fine but we don't come out of them knowing anything more about Goku unlike we do with Gohan.

Goku's power up wasn't superficial. This incessant need of some to minimize Goku's contributions to the series is odd.

No one's trying to minimize Goku's contributions to the story, we're already paying full attention to what Goku did, because he's Goku and he's the most popular character. If anything it's Gohan's contributions that get minimized.

Gohan would be dead if not for his father and there would be no Genkidama to bounce back had it not been for him. Let's not forget Kuririn's or Yajirobe's contributions. All of them were important, but Goku was still the central character to the story. It was all leading to his confrontation with Vegeta.

I could just as easily say the central character was Gohan and that all the events from the Saiyan to the Android arc were leading to his confrontation with Cell which wouldn't be untrue.

My issue with Gohan as the hero is how he needs his hand held constantly, even until the end, which doesn't make for the most interesting hero.

I can understand why he would annoy some people as he's more of a reluctant hero surrounded by go-getters and I think Toriyama could of handled him better but keep in mind most stories are this way. A flawed protagonist is always more interesting than a complete one. Characters that need help and have self doubt are more relatable to real people.

Let me just point out I like Goku and I think the blame lies with Toriyama for his failing to correctly develop a complex character like Gohan. In the end he stuck with what he knew best which was Goku and to his credit it worked out fine for him that way but I can't help but see wasted potential. I think he knew this himself and Uub & Pan were his way of letting someone else have a try where he failed. Unfortunately Toei dropped the ball on that one too.

[ABED]

A flawed protagonist is always more interesting than a complete one. Characters that need help and have self doubt are more relatable to real people.

To who and what kind of flaws are we discussing? Just because someone is more relatable doesn't make him/her more interesting. Case in point, Bond rarely if ever doubts himself, is great at pretty much everything, and yet he has had enduring success for over 50 years. Goku has plenty of flaws, but when the chips are down, he doesn't give up (unless it's part of a plan to defeat the villain). Gohan was willing to give up, but had to have Goku pretty much do everything for him. Even a flawed hero typically learns something that makes them heroic and enables him to achieve victory.

Fair enough about the new character, and he's important but he's not the main focus.

No one's trying to minimize Goku's contributions to the story

Maybe not you, but I have seen many who do. Some have gone as far to claim he was not that important to the outcome of the fight against the Saiyans.

I could just as easily say the central character was Gohan and that all the events from the Saiyan to the Android arc were leading to his confrontation with Cell which wouldn't be untrue.

But I don't think you can. If Gohan was in fact always intended to take over that role, then I think even Toriyama would've made Gohan more important to the Cell arc. Most villains have some sort of rivalry or conflict that plays out between themselves and the hero. Gohan feels little more than a kid with enough power to defeat Cell.

SS3 Gotenks was about to kill Boo when the time ran out. If he wasn't fucking around, he would have killed Boo before the time was up. The second time Gotenks appeared, Boo absorbed him by catching him off-guard.
Vegetto failed because he wanted to rescue his sons & Piccolo from inside Boo before killing him, but he was unlucky because the bad air inside Boo split him. Goku & Vegeta then destroyed the Potara & didn't try Fusion because they are stubborn, but if they had merged again, they would have been able to kill Boo within seconds. That's why Fusion/Potara never delivered the killing blow, not because they are not powerful enough, but because they weren't used correctly, because of bad luck, or because of Saiyan stubbornness.

I was never claiming that Vegetto wasn't strong enough, but I still think Gotenks wasn't. Even so, that was never my point. It serves as little more than a cool power up and not a means of defeating the villain. There's no real thematic resonance to it.

[mAcChaos]

A flawed protagonist is always more interesting than a complete one. Characters that need help and have self doubt are more relatable to real people.

To who and what kind of flaws are we discussing? Just because someone is more relatable doesn't make him/her more interesting. Case in point, Bond rarely if ever doubts himself, is great at pretty much everything, and yet he has had enduring success for over 50 years.

He's not really interesting though. He's just a self-insert for guys.

[TheUltimateVegito]

By passing the torch, I mean passing the leading role/legacy to his son. Yes, Goku didn't technically have some blatant physical form of a torch to pass on (Although, he wouldn't have been as strong as he was if he wasn't for training with other masters) but that wasn't needed, with all the events that transpired during Goku and Gohan's part of the saga. Also, Goku always cared for protecting the earth, whether he be leading or not. Hell, one of the main reasons for him staying dead was because of Gohan's hidden power, which Goku helped unleash.

Do you think I don't know passing the torch is metaphorical? Goku training with teachers is irrelevant. Are you claiming that's how he had this torch passed? That's not what it means. Goku learned from different teachers but that was so he could become better for himself. Being the world's hero was not a position he actively sought or anyone was trying to train him to do. What about Gohan was more interesting in the role than Goku? His constant self doubt? His constant need for hand holding?

Kami and Kaio both trained him to defend the earth by bettering him. Yes, Goku mainly cares for bettering himself, but he also cares for protecting the earth against major threats.

And no, Goku training with others had little to do with passing the torch to Gohan. My point was the metaphors were all that was needed to show Gohan taking the lead without seeming out of place.

That's the thing, the self-doubting and hand holding (which weren't overdone imo) were part of Gohan's development to becoming the leading role. By the end of the Cell Games, he became a fully capable fighter. The Saiyaman arc also showed how interesting Gohan could've been on his own, without seeming like a Goku copy, with his appropriate goofiness and Saiyaman antics.

[TheUltimateVegito]

But I don't think you can. If Gohan was in fact always intended to take over that role, then I think even Toriyama would've made Gohan more important to the Cell arc. Most villains have some sort of rivalry or conflict that plays out between themselves and the hero. Gohan feels little more than a kid with enough power to defeat Cell.

That's like saying Goku feels little more than a guy with enough power to defeat Vegeta and Frieza. Goku's importance to the arcs mainly came from his strength, so why is it a negative factor with Gohan? Gohan didn't need to fight a bunch of guys to fulfill his role in the arc and the story as a whole.

[dbzfan7]

Basically, I don't think the problem is that Goku is the main character, it's that he's effectively the ONLY character now.

Yes, he was dominant back in DB, but DB also had three huge tournament arcs where everybody else got to have plots and struggles and show off their skills. And Z obviously splintered into a bunch of character arcs running side-by-side, with Goku the first among equals (Freeza is the only major problem that Goku solves alone - Vegeta wrecks his face, he says he can't fight the Androids any better than Vegeta or Trunks, he gives up vs Cell, and barely matches a depowered Buu and has to use the Spirit Bomb).

Ever since the Buu arc ended, it's been all Goku all the time. No tournaments, no side plots, just everybody getting chumped instantly and Godku (literally Godku now) descending from Olympus to save the day. Everything unique about anybody is being stripped away - Fusion has been discarded completely, Gohan's lost both his unique black-haired battle form, now the generic end result of MOUNTAIN TRAINING (and being given to Goku for his incredible efforts of standing in the middle of a circle), and his unique rage boosts, and they keep jamming things into the 10 year gap so Uub isn't there.

This. Him and possibly soon Vegeta. Other than them everyone may as well just disappear at this point. I'm tired of "Oh wow Goku is so awesome."

[RandomGuy96]

SS3 Gotenks was about to kill Boo when the time ran out. If he wasn't fucking around, he would have killed Boo before the time was up. The second time Gotenks appeared, Boo absorbed him by catching him off-guard.

Looking back, Gotenks screwing around didn't really mean anything. His time appeared to be five minutes regardless of what he was doing beforehand, as evidenced by the fact that Gotenks reverts to base before he actually defuses later, and he fights Buu for quite a while before he drops out of the form. It was Buu playing dead in that hole that caused Gotenks to run out of time, not him screwing around.