Why can you or can not accept Dragon Ball without Toriyama ?

[Cipher]

You keep using the term cynical in this context, but I have yet to hear how it applies in this context.

"Concerned only with one's own interests and typically disregarding accepted or appropriate standards in order to achieve them."

Just to set the record straight, because you'll see this phrase used often when discussing art and entertainment that transparently eschews personal vision or enthusiasm in favor of marketing or more calculated audience appeal. It's the go-to word because it reflects the idea that those projects take a fairly base view of their audiences/the public. "If we do X, we'll get money," on the other side of which is some level of distrust toward more risk-taking or idiosyncratic ideas.

[ABED]

You keep using the term cynical in this context, but I have yet to hear how it applies in this context.

"Concerned only with one's own interests and typically disregarding accepted or appropriate standards in order to achieve them."

Just to set the record straight, because you'll see this phrase used often when discussing art and entertainment that transparently eschews personal vision or enthusiasm in favor of marketing or more calculated audience appeal. It's the go-to word because it reflects the idea that those projects take a fairly base view of public audiences.

It's all about execution and I've seen committee or seemingly committee based movies or TV shows that I find VASTLY more entertaining and interesting than the vision of some so called "auteur". I'll take Iron Man 2 any day over Batman Returns. And risk is a means to an end. An idea might be ideosynchratic, but that doesn't make it neccessarily good. I think some Platonic (for lack of a better term) view of art that if it doesn't conform to their ideal then they look down on it regardless of actual execution.

[Cipher]

It's all about execution and I've seen committee or seemingly committee based movies or TV shows that I find VASTLY more entertaining and interesting than the vision of some so called "auteur". I'll take Iron Man 2 any day over Batman Returns. And risk is a means to an end. An idea might be ideosynchratic, but that doesn't make it neccessarily good. I think some Platonic (for lack of a better term) view of art that if it doesn't conform to their ideal then they look down on it regardless of actual execution.

I mean, that's true. Though, as I said in my earlier post, I think both Iron-Man and Batman are fairly malleable high-concepts that have a lot more reason to see new stories and authors than Dragon Ball does. And I don't think either Iron-Man 2 or Batman Returns are really paragons of personal vision; both are pretty calculated, in their own way (even if one calculated badly).

A better example might be, since it's already been brought up here, Star Wars, where the "creator"-helmed prequels are genuinely awful filmmaking, and what's replaced them is a series of very audience-pleasing movies that, from what I've heard, are at least well-executed and enjoyable. I'm ... still not sure that's a perfect comparison, since the original three movies had a lot more hands in them at every stage than one creator. I guess the most I can say is that I'd rather billions of dollars not be put toward either. Or that if Disney's going to offer its universe as a "Hey, come tell your story against an iconic space backdrop" template, it at least not be so calculated. I don't really see Dragon Ball being able to offer something like that, though, because, again, there's very little high-concept or generic about its world; its appeal is pretty solely linked to Toriyama's execution, so there's little reason to do anything that's not imitative and starting purely from a place of "These characters sell."

EDIT -- For some reason I wrote this post thinking Batman Returns was Batman and Robin. Now that I'm not being an idiot, I'll just say that as much as I'm not a fan of the movie, I'll take it ten times over Iron-Man 2. "A superhero by way of so and so" is interesting. "Marvel Movie #11, in the style of the last ten" is boring, and a little discouraging to see greenlit over alternatives.

Anyway, to wrap this back around, safe Dragon Ball just isn't Dragon Ball to me. And the way this franchise exists now, and because it's tied to his style, that's all I see us getting without him. To a certain extent, it's even what we're getting now even with him.

[ABED]

It's all about execution and I've seen committee or seemingly committee based movies or TV shows that I find VASTLY more entertaining and interesting than the vision of some so called "auteur". I'll take Iron Man 2 any day over Batman Returns. And risk is a means to an end. An idea might be ideosynchratic, but that doesn't make it neccessarily good. I think some Platonic (for lack of a better term) view of art that if it doesn't conform to their ideal then they look down on it regardless of actual execution.

I mean, that's true. Though, as I said in my earlier post, I think both Iron-Man and Batman are fairly malleable high-concepts that have a lot more reason to see new stories and authors than Dragon Ball does. And I don't think either Iron-Man 2 or Batman Returns are really paragons of personal vision; both are pretty calculated, in their own way (even if one calculated badly).

A better example might be, since it's already been brought up here, Star Wars, where the "creator"-helmed prequels are genuinely awful filmmaking, and what's replaced them is a series of very audience-pleasing movies that, from what I've heard, are at least well-executed and enjoyable. I'm ... still not sure that's a perfect comparison, since the original three movies had a lot more hands in them at every stage than one creator. I guess the most I can say is that I'd rather billions of dollars not be put toward either.

Batman Returns feels very much like a Tim Burton movie, whereas Batman feels like a Batman mvoie made by Tim Burton.

In the end, I don't care neccessarily how studios and artists get from point A to Z, just that Z is good. Using the Star Wars example, the original trilogy was so good and entertaining and Lucas wasn't the director for all three, but he was very much involved.

I certainly see your point about Dragon Ball. I can accept a DB without Toriyama, but there has been so much content that I'm more than satisfied if we never got it again.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

Some fans are cool with Dragon Ball not having Toriyama involment while other are adamant to the thought of Toriyama not being involved in Dragon Ball.
I would like to know why you side with what band?

I´m on the side that Dragon Ball can (and should at this point) exist without Toriyama in it.
Franchises like Superman, Batman, Spider-Man, Star Wars and many others have shown that quality stuff can be produced regardless of the original creator being involve in it or not. Trunks TV Special and Bardock OVA have shown that guys not named Toriyama can put quality stuff, let´s also not forget that Toriyama produced Dragon Ball Minus and Ressurection 'F.
Moreover, hainvg new blood in the franchise would keep the series "fresh" with new creators adding their own flavor, tasting Toriyama dishes over and over can get stale (like how getting a new Assasin´s Creed game each year has killed my interest )

Toriyama is a great writer, but he's very limited on what type of story he can write. Dragon Ball has long since grown beyond Toriyama, it's inevitable that we see DB without him being a part of it.

[Cipher]

So, what do people see as being the "hook" for Dragon World that encourages more stories to be set in it, outside of things that link it specifically to Toriyama's execution? Like, what makes it a good enough world that other authors need to set stylistically different stories within it rather than just using their own? (Other than the recognition of Dragon Ball as a brand and someone requesting work-for-hire, of course, which is ... yawn.)

That it's a crazy world in which anything can happen as long as it involves martial arts?

And if they're not doing something stylistically different, then, like, what's the point? I guess you could say that it's just superficially entertaining, but the ways in which later Dragon Ball is superficially entertaining to me are ones that would never have hooked me if I hadn't been a kid at the time. And, judging from how I feel about other things I liked as a kid now, wouldn't have held my interest as an adult without the understanding that it's one author-illustrator doing the kind of thing that only he could do, sometimes butting heads along the way and always taking unexpected routes.

[Hellspawn28]

Most of the DBZ 13 Movies did suck along with GT and Episode of Bardock. I feel like Toriyama writes stories better than Toei does. Sure not everything from Toriyama is perfect, but I would take DB- over DBZ Movie 4 and 11 any day in my opinion.

[FoolsGil]

Why can I accept Toriyama without Dragonball? Because we've accepted series' being wrenched from their authors many, many times, and not just in this decade. Steve Dikto and Stan Lee hasn't had anything to do with Dr. Strange in decades. They're not even the Executive Producer in the movie that comes out in a couple weeks.

Let's keep things in perspective, folks. If you've accepted one series without a creator in charge, you can accept any of them.

[Jedi Knifed]

Most of the DBZ 13 Movies did suck along with GT and Episode of Bardock. I feel like Toriyama writes stories better than Toei does. Sure not everything from Toriyama is perfect, but I would take DB- over DBZ Movie 4 and 11 any day in my opinion.

I will stick with the original DB manga + Jaco The Galactic Patrolman (excluding the DB- chapter) + the final chapter of Neko Majin Z.

I hate to say this, but 95% of Toriyama's new ideas have been just as bad as Toei's worst filler scenes and movies. I don't consider DB Super to be any better than DBGT. As far as I'm concerned Vegeta never had a brother, Freeza didn't know anything about Beerus or Majin Buu, Beerus never told Freeza to destroy Planet Vegeta, Future Trunks never returned to "our" timeline after the Cell Games, and SSJ god mode never happened or was at most a one-time temporary power up that expired long before the end of DBZ.

I feel that Toriyama and Toei are driving this franchise into the ground. DragonBall is not and was never supposed to be like Star Wars or DC/Marvel comics. It's time for this franchise to die with dignity.

[Hellspawn28]

I see nothing wrong with Vegeta having a brother. I guess fan wanted him to be evil and badass like Radditz but didn't get that. Most pre-2008 fan fics had Vegeta's lost brother being a clone of Radditz. I'm fine with Freeza knowing about Buu and Beerus, he just as a bad ego. Even fans are okay with him knowing that his brother was stronger then him.

[Black Hawk]

I've personally never minded whether or not Toriyama was involved with a project; such matters never enhanced nor hindered my enjoyment of Dragon Ball in its many adaptations. Though I started with the original manga, I quickly followed it up with GT during its original run, during which I had no idea that Toriyama hadn't been actively involved with GT (mainly because I was a foreigner having a friend tell me what was going on and translate for me as it ran). So, in that way, admittedly, I may be biased, as I have a great deal of nostalgia for GT.

[MozillaVulpix]

I'm with everyone else: I'll accept a Dragon Ball without Toriyama if the material is something I really like. The differences between the Super manga and anime have shattered the idea of there being a definitive canon to the series. At this point, any story could happen at any time and could even contradict the manga and I wouldn't mind as long as it's enjoyable in its own right.

[Jedi Knifed]

I see nothing wrong with Vegeta having a brother. I guess fan wanted him to be evil and badass like Radditz but didn't get that. Most pre-2008 fan fics had Vegeta's lost brother being a clone of Radditz. I'm fine with Freeza knowing about Buu and Beerus, he just as a bad ego. Even fans are okay with him knowing that his brother was stronger then him.

Vegeta at first couldn't believe that Future Trunks was a SSJ and clearly stated that there were no more saiyans left other than himself, Goku, and Gohan. I don't care that Tarble is a wimp. What I don't like is that Tarble's existence flat out contradicts what was already stated in the manga. It makes Vegeta look like a clueless idiot or a liar. I don't see any reason why Vegeta would forget that he has a brother or lie about no more saiyans being left alive. He recognized Tarble immediately when they met in the 2008 Special.

As for Freeza knowing about Buu and Beerus, that doesn't make sense either since Freeza insisted that he was the most powerful being in the universe and that nobody other than King Cold managed to hurt him before. But now we are supposed to believe that Freeza not only knew about beings who are more powerful than him but has even met Beerus before, actually needed Beerus to "authorize" the destruction of Planet Vegeta, and was even defeated by Beerus at one point. Well then why did Freeza assume that he can defeat SSJ Goku just by powering up to 100% if he was already defeated and humiliated by someone before? Freeza isn't an honorable martial artist who always seeks new challenges, he is just a superpowered thug. I will not even begin to explain how stupid Freeza's "4 months of training = SSJ god level power" is.

That's the problem with Toriyama's and Toei's new DragonBall ideas. They were not in the original manga and anime for a good reason, because they are f'ing stupid. These new retcons and additions to the franchise contradict the original story too much, they change the characters' personalities for the worse, or even break the continuity outright like DragonBall Minus did. I do NOT want new DragonBall stories just because "it's DragonBall". Not if these new stories are poorly written garbage that tarnish a once great franchise. To me DragonBall is a lot like the Resident Evil franchise. It was awesome in the beginning but it began to go downhill when they kept milking it to death. DragonBall really should have ended when Goku left with Uub. What more is there left to say? The final chapter of Neko Majin Z is a much better "continuation of DragonBall" than anything Toriyama and Toei did from 2008 - present.

[Xeztin]

I can accept it because the man will not live forever just like all of us unfortunately and even though one day we will loose him, I'm sure he wouldn't want Dragon Ball to go with him if it can still be enjoyed far beyond his life or even ours. Dragon Ball is one of those things were everyone should get a chance to experience it in some shape or another, even if its new stuff decades from now with Toriyama not in it. Right now is the best time for Toriyama to start easing his way out of the franchise, I am very glad that he's there to steer Toei and the others in the right direction though, and I think they've done a pretty good job so far. I can say I'd trust them based on their filler arcs and such. Toyotaro is an excellent artist and if Toriyama say's he trusts Dragon Ball with him, and the new team then that's good enough for me. It's a whole heck of a lot better than Toriyama not coming back at all, Super might have been another Evolution if he hadn't stepped in to guide them at first.

[olympia]

I can accept Dragon Ball without Toriyama because I find the impact that the work has had on other creative people to be a highly interesting subject.

[Deathbringer]

Why can I accept Toriyama without Dragonball? Because we've accepted series' being wrenched from their authors many, many times, and not just in this decade. Steve Dikto and Stan Lee hasn't had anything to do with Dr. Strange in decades. They're not even the Executive Producer in the movie that comes out in a couple weeks.

Let's keep things in perspective, folks. If you've accepted one series without a creator in charge, you can accept any of them.

But there's a slight difference here, I don't want DB to become like an american superhero comic series where it never ends and the story just keeps getting more and more convoluted with alternate universes and multiple reboots involved just to keep the same marketable characters on the front pages, Dragon Ball was a manga series by Toriyama, Toriyama gave the story a beginning and he gave it an ending and I think that should be respected. You can take ANY series or even a singular work and you can always force a sequel into the story, it doesn't mean that it's healthy for the story and it certainly isn't a guarantee of improving the quality.

Yes, the world of Dragon Ball is abound with imagination and feels like it has infinite possibility, and yes, an expanded universe is inevitable. However Shueisha and Toei both know that the most marketable main character will always be Goku, or Vegeta, or Piccolo, just one of the main cast and they also know that the best character creator for the series is Toryiama, even today he has given us characters like Jaco who can hold his own manga miniseries (a miniseries which actually felt like the good type of expanded universe that I would definitely like to see more of if they have to go down this route) I'm not saying that Toriyama is the only person who can design good Dragon Ball characters but you just know that Shueisha/Toei wouldn't feel confident trying to do this with brand new characters so they'll always use the main series cast to play it safe. If they did want to introduce other characters to be stars of their own story in the same world I have a feeling they'll test the waters by adapting the Jaco manga into an anime just to see how well received it is by the fans (but even THAT story was closely tied to Goku & Bulma)

[ABED]

I do think DB should've ended a while ago. One of the things I loved about Breaking Bad is that it knew when to end. Sure, the writers could've said there was someone even more powerful or ruthless than Gus Fring, but the instead of stretching the show out, the writers did the non-conveluted thing and ended it properly. After destroying a being that was multiple times stronger than every DB character combined, where do you take that story in a way that feels like the stakes are being upped?

[Jedi Knifed]

Why can I accept Toriyama without Dragonball? Because we've accepted series' being wrenched from their authors many, many times, and not just in this decade. Steve Dikto and Stan Lee hasn't had anything to do with Dr. Strange in decades. They're not even the Executive Producer in the movie that comes out in a couple weeks.

Let's keep things in perspective, folks. If you've accepted one series without a creator in charge, you can accept any of them.

But there's a slight difference here, I don't want DB to become like an american superhero comic series where it never ends and the story just keeps getting more and more convoluted with alternate universes and multiple reboots involved just to keep the same marketable characters on the front pages, Dragon Ball was a manga series by Toriyama, Toriyama gave the story a beginning and he gave it an ending and I think that should be respected. You can take ANY series or even a singular work and you can always force a sequel into the story, it doesn't mean that it's healthy for the story and it certainly isn't a guarantee of improving the quality.

Exactly. It's nice to see someone else who understands this.

DragonBall without Akira Toriyama is like The Lord Of The Rings without J.R.R. Tolkien, or the Cthulhu Mythos without H.P. Lovecraft, or Star Wars without George Lucas.

It doesn't mean that all of the 3rd party ideas are automatically bad but a lot of them are. Most of the Star Wars Expanded Universe and most of the Cthulhu Mythos stories written long after Lovecraft died weren't very good. In the end, official licensed fan-fiction is still fan-fiction.

It's 100% true that Goku, Vegeta, and Piccolo are and always will be the most popular DragonBall characters. But what else is there left to say about them? At this point I don't even trust Toriyama to tell a story about Vegeta's parents or Vegeta's childhood after seeing how bad DragonBall Minus turned out. What more can be said about Piccolo? What else is there left to say about Goku?

[Hellspawn28]

I do feel like Toriyama can give characters more personally to them while the villains we got from Toei are pretty dull and boring like Tullece, Lord Slug, Super #13, Bojack, Bio Broli, Lord Ludd, General Rildo, Dr. Myu, Super 17 and Yi Xing Long. He give Beerus and Whis a lot of personally to them and I feel like Toei would have made Beerus into another bad guy of the week if Toriyama didn't rewrite the script. Also with the Future Trunks saga, I remember he has been writing the story since June 2015. I think with enough time, Toriyama can give us something great.

For years, fans wanted a new series from Toriyama that did not follow GT. We got want the fans wanted and now they tend to dislike it. I feel like when DB fans ask for something and when they get it, they end up hating it.

[Anime Kitten]

In the end, official licensed fan-fiction is still fan-fiction.

I'm so sick of people comparing what they see as bad ideas to fanfiction. There's no connection. And I personally am quite insulted at the notion, being a fanfiction writer.