Oh How I Wish This Was Real (Piccolo's Transformation)

[Kanassa]

I'm not a fan of the designs and the way this is made, but it does bring up the idea that Piccolo being relevant again would awaken a sleeping part of the fanbase.

Either that, or the fans would just be screaming on how unoriginal, fanfiction-y and bullshit it is (No matter if it makes sense or not).

If you like the Black arc, you lose any right at hating something because it's"fanfiction-y"

I doubt the people who raise this complaint like the Black arc.

[ekrolo2]

I doubt the people who raise this complaint like the Black arc.

You'd be surprised. I see people give TDKRises crap for how it fixes Batman's spine then turn around and call Tom King's recent version amazeballs even though its some of the stupidest shit of all time.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

I doubt the people who raise this complaint like the Black arc.

You'd be surprised. I see people give TDKRises crap for how it fixes Batman's spine then turn around and call Tom King's recent version amazeballs even though its some of the stupidest shit of all time.

I'd never forgot him bringing the JL and then them doing absolutely nothing I dropped his run after the Gotham girl arc due to budget constraints but haven't heard of good things about his run since /;

(TDKRises deserves as much flack as it gets).

Bringing this back to DB. You're right the Black arc was fan service galore, I still don't like the Vegetto thing.

[ekrolo2]

I doubt the people who raise this complaint like the Black arc.

You'd be surprised. I see people give TDKRises crap for how it fixes Batman's spine then turn around and call Tom King's recent version amazeballs even though its some of the stupidest shit of all time.

I'd never forgot him bringing the JL and then them doing absolutely nothing I dropped his run after the Gotham girl arc due to budget constraints but haven't heard of good things about his run since /;

(TDKRises deserves as much flack as it gets).

Bringing this back to DB. You're right the Black arc was fan service galore, I still don't like the Vegetto thing.

TDKRises and Iron Man 3 never deserved half the shit they got, I'll take both of them over the likes of Civil War.

[Kanassa]

TDKRises and Iron Man 3 never deserved half the shit they got, I'll take both of them over the likes of Civil War.

Civil War the movie, or Civil War the comic?

[ekrolo2]

TDKRises and Iron Man 3 never deserved half the shit they got, I'll take both of them over the likes of Civil War.

Civil War the movie, or Civil War the comic?

Both

[rereboy]

TDKRises and Iron Man 3 never deserved half the shit they got, I'll take both of them over the likes of Civil War.

Civil War the movie, or Civil War the comic?

Both

The movie is very different from the comic and doesn't suffer from the same problems.

[ekrolo2]

[quote="rereboy"]I hate the movie on its own terms, it starts out fine then devolves into total stupidity with such a straight face I'm convinced no one noticed such obvious issues as Spider-Man's inclusion breaking Tony's whole motivation.

But I digress, this isn't the place for discussing that stuff.

[rereboy]

I hate the movie on its own terms, it starts out fine then devolves into total stupidity with such a straight face I'm convinced no one noticed such obvious issues as Spider-Man's inclusion breaking Tony's whole motivation.

But I digress, this isn't the place for discussing that stuff.

I don't agree.

[spoiler]Tony as a character is someone who generally goes a bit too far, realizing it only when he actually goes too far, but even then he struggles not go to far again to compensate for his errors and try to make things right again, which is consistent with his over the top personality. He did it in Age of Ultron and he does it again in Civil War.

In Age of Ultron, influenced by his vision, he goes too far in trying to control everything so that he can protect everything, which leads to the creation of Ultron and it doesn't go well. Despite that, even though he realizes his mistake, he tries to rectify his mistake by trying a variation of the experiment that created Ultron in the first place, which could be considered going too far again but fortunately doesn't backfire and creates Vision.

In Civil War, he is filled with guilt about the civilian deaths that resulted, in part, due to his mistakes and he couldn't avoid, and he is also grieving and feeling guilty for the end of his relationship, so he completely dives into the idea of accountability as a means to repent, and he champions that idea, fights for it, and once again goes too far with it, recruiting a powerful teenager to help fight when things aren't going so well. This didn't backfire on him but he did realize that he went too far when others asked how old Peter was when they were fighting, and when Peter gets KOed, Tony immediately tells him that he was done fighting because of that realization. He further realizes that he went too far when he sees how his friends are being held and treated in the underwater prison, which changes his mind and makes him want to help Captain America. In spite of this, at the end of the movie, Tony once again goes too far against Bucky because, even though he realizes Bucky had been brainwashed, Tony is only "seeing red" and thus he is going too far for his personal payback for his parent's deaths.

In my view, Tony is consistent in how he acts, which is basically a somewhat over the top approach to things, no matter what his particular ideas/views are at that moment, and Civil War is a pleasantly good movie, better than the comic of the same name.[/spoiler]

[ekrolo2]

I hate the movie on its own terms, it starts out fine then devolves into total stupidity with such a straight face I'm convinced no one noticed such obvious issues as Spider-Man's inclusion breaking Tony's whole motivation.

But I digress, this isn't the place for discussing that stuff.

I don't agree.

[spoiler]Tony as a character is someone who generally goes a bit too far, realizing it only when he actually goes too far, but even then he struggles not go to far again to compensate for his errors and try to make things right again, which is consistent with his over the top personality. He did it in Age of Ultron and he does it again in Civil War.

In Age of Ultron, influenced by his vision, he goes too far in trying to control everything so that he can protect everything, which leads to the creation of Ultron and it doesn't go well. Despite that, even though he realizes his mistake, he tries to rectify his mistake by trying a variation of the experiment that created Ultron in the first place, which could be considered going too far again but fortunately doesn't backfire and creates Vision.

In Civil War, he is filled with guilt about the civilian deaths that he couldn't avoid and that resulted, in part, due to his mistakes, and he is also grieving and feeling guilty for the end of his relationship, so he completely dives into the idea of general accountability as a means to repent and he champions that idea, fights for it, and once again goes too far with it, recruiting a powerful teenager to help fight when things aren't going so well. This didn't backfire on him but he did realize that he went too far when others asked how old Peter was when they were fighting, and when Peter gets KOed, Tony immediately tells him that he was done fighting. He further realizes that he went too far when he sees how his friends are being held and treated in the underwater prison, which changes his mind and makes him want to help Captain America. In spite of this, at the end of the movie, Tony once again goes too far against Bucky because, even though he realizes Bucky had been brainwashed, Tony is only "seeing red" and he is going too far for his personal payback.

In my view, Tony is consistent in how he acts, and Civil War is a pleasantly good movie, better than the comic of the same name.[/spoiler]

That destroys Tony's entire stance for me still. The death of a young man is what spurns his interest in the Sokovia Accords, him choosing to bring another kid like that in a battle royale against some of the most dangerous people on the planet is so counter to this motivation that I can't reconcile it.

I can't even rationalize it as Tony going too far: he has no business thinking like that anymore. How many times have we had Tony think like this? Going too far in one direction and not realizing it? At least three in a row, it happens in IM3 then again in Ultron and then again in Civil War. It doesn't work from movie to movie for me and the Spider-Man example is so egregiously bad, it can't get handwaved with "Oh Tony is just being a fuck up again" in a movie where Tony's realization of his fuck ups is what prompts him to act more responsibly.

It's not character development, it's borderline self-parody at this point. His character makes no sense from movie to movie in his last three appearances.

As far as I'm concerned there were two superhero products worth a fuck this year: Doctor Strange and BvS. The rest? Total duds as far as I'm concerned.

[rereboy]

I hate the movie on its own terms, it starts out fine then devolves into total stupidity with such a straight face I'm convinced no one noticed such obvious issues as Spider-Man's inclusion breaking Tony's whole motivation.

But I digress, this isn't the place for discussing that stuff.

I don't agree.

[spoiler]Tony as a character is someone who generally goes a bit too far, realizing it only when he actually goes too far, but even then he struggles not go to far again to compensate for his errors and try to make things right again, which is consistent with his over the top personality. He did it in Age of Ultron and he does it again in Civil War.

In Age of Ultron, influenced by his vision, he goes too far in trying to control everything so that he can protect everything, which leads to the creation of Ultron and it doesn't go well. Despite that, even though he realizes his mistake, he tries to rectify his mistake by trying a variation of the experiment that created Ultron in the first place, which could be considered going too far again but fortunately doesn't backfire and creates Vision.

In Civil War, he is filled with guilt about the civilian deaths that he couldn't avoid and that resulted, in part, due to his mistakes, and he is also grieving and feeling guilty for the end of his relationship, so he completely dives into the idea of general accountability as a means to repent and he champions that idea, fights for it, and once again goes too far with it, recruiting a powerful teenager to help fight when things aren't going so well. This didn't backfire on him but he did realize that he went too far when others asked how old Peter was when they were fighting, and when Peter gets KOed, Tony immediately tells him that he was done fighting. He further realizes that he went too far when he sees how his friends are being held and treated in the underwater prison, which changes his mind and makes him want to help Captain America. In spite of this, at the end of the movie, Tony once again goes too far against Bucky because, even though he realizes Bucky had been brainwashed, Tony is only "seeing red" and he is going too far for his personal payback.

In my view, Tony is consistent in how he acts, and Civil War is a pleasantly good movie, better than the comic of the same name.[/spoiler]

That destroys Tony's entire stance for me still. The death of a young man is what spurns his interest in the Sokovia Accords, him choosing to bring another kid like that in a battle royale against some of the most dangerous people on the planet is so counter to this motivation that I can't reconcile it.

I can't even rationalize it as Tony going too far: he has no business thinking like that anymore. How many times have we had Tony think like this? Going too far in one direction and not realizing it? At least three in a row, it happens in IM3 then again in Ultron and then again in Civil War. It doesn't work from movie to movie for me and the Spider-Man example is so egregiously bad, it can't get handwaved with "Oh Tony is just being a fuck up again" in a movie where Tony's realization of his fuck ups is what prompts him to act more responsibly.

It's not character development, it's borderline self-parody at this point. His character makes no sense from movie to movie in his last three appearances.

As far as I'm concerned there were two superhero products worth a fuck this year: Doctor Strange and BvS. The rest? Total duds as far as I'm concerned.

That's what going too far means. It basically means taking a stance past a point where it starts to fall apart because the means employed to enforce the stance become dubious (with very nasty consequences if it backfires). Such is the case with using Spider-man. It was a dubious way to enforce Tony's stance but he only realizes it after the fact because he is too focused in actually enforcing the stance, because he is going too far with it. He's too focused on how powerful Spider-man is and how it could help enforce his stance, instead of realizing that despite being powerful, he is still a teenager.

I think you are confusing the fact that you don't agree and don't particularly like how Tony personality is and how he acts with it being poorly written or it not being consistent for Tony's character.

Consistency in terms of character is not doing always what is the most logical and rational thing form an unbiased point of view. Consistency in terms of character is consistency in how the character actually approaches things in reaction to the events he experiences. Tony may change his mind about things according to the events that he experiences, but how he approaches things is consistent with his character and personality, and going a bit too far, a bit over the top (aka taking a stance past a point where it starts to fall apart because the means employed to enforce the stance become dubious), is a consistent characteristic of him.

[ekrolo2]

That's what going too far means. It basically means taking a stance past a point where it starts to fall apart because the means employed to enforce the stance become dubious (with very nasty consequences if it backfires). Such is the case with using Spider-man. It was a dubious way to enforce Tony's stance but he only realizes it after the fact because he is too focused in actually enforcing the stance, because he is going too far with it.

I think you are confusing the fact that you don't agree and don't particularly like how Tony personality is and how he acts with it being poorly written or it not being consistent for Tony's character.

Consistency in terms of character is not doing always what is the most logical and rational thing form an unbiased point of view. Consistency in terms of character is consistency in how the character actually approaches things in reaction to the events he experiences. Tony may change his mind about things according to the events that he experiences, but how he approaches things is consistent with his character and personality, and going a bit too far, a bit over the top (aka taking a stance past a point where it starts to fall apart because the means employed to enforce the stance become dubious), is a consistent characteristic of him.

And my answer remains the same: Tony should not act like this. Not because I disagree with the decision, I just don't buy that Tony WOULD act like this anymore.

Iron Man 3 was all about Tony being horribly paranoid and anxious about alien threats and his own inability to deal with this new world around him where he's just a guy in a tin suit fighting aliens and gods. So, he makes dozens of armors for months on end and goes so far as to make one remotely controlled by his brain & body to save him at any given moment. At the end of that movie, after he's proven that the suit isn't what makes him Iron Man, Tony chooses to not be afraid for himself and of the world around him.

In Age of Ultron, Tony is once again deeply afraid of the world around him, Wanda wouldn't be able to spur him into making Ultron if that was the case. And make no mistake, Tony was heading in the direction of Ultron before the movie even starts, Wanda just helps it happen faster, so his character is regressed. Then he goes too far and it causes a lot of people to die but Tony seemingly realizes the mistake of going too far and tries not to do it.

Civil War mostly keeps this consistent until Spider-Man shows up, that's a decision so blatantly against his motivation in that movie that I can't rationalize it as anything but "Fiege wants Spidey and in here he will go whether it makes sense or not!". Now, if the movie had Tony realize the truth about his parents death before he made this decision, I could have an easier time accepting this as Tony, in the spur of the moment, going too far solely for the sake of revenge. But he's not emotionally compromised enough for me to accept the decision as it stands in the movie.

It's the same reason I don't think Goku makes much sense after a certain point, in the Cell arc he admits that his own fuck ups are what cause these various disasters to happen and his decision to stay dead is him trying to act responsible. Then Super and the Boo arc happen and that leason goes out the window. You can't have your character admit his fucks up then have them happen over, and over, and over again without good cause, Civil War doesn't have that.

If it moved up the reveal of Bucky to an earlier point to explain why Tony is going too far, I could buy that, but he's too fine before that for me to rationalize his inconsistent decision making.

[rereboy]

And my answer remains the same: Tony should not act like this. Not because I disagree with the decision, I just don't buy that Tony WOULD act like this anymore.

Iron Man 3 was all about Tony being horribly paranoid and anxious about alien threats and his own inability to deal with this new world around him where he's just a guy in a tin suit fighting aliens and gods. So, he makes dozens of armors for months on end and goes so far as to make one remotely controlled by his brain & body to save him at any given moment. At the end of that movie, after he's proven that the suit isn't what makes him Iron Man, Tony chooses to not be afraid for himself and of the world around him.

[spoiler]I believe Iron Man 3 is about Tony's relationship between himself and the Iron Man persona that the world sees. Namely, how he views himself.

Ever since he became Iron Man, Tony has kind of identified himself as the Iron Man persona that the world sees, that world hero that he created, without really distinguishing it from himself. And in Iron Man 3 he is feeling the weight of being that persona.

The conclusion in Iron Man 3 is that Tony realizes that there is a distinction between that Iron Man persona that the world sees and himself, that he isn't defined by that persona and he doesn't necessarily want to be that persona... He still wants to be a good guy, an hero, someone that deserves the title of "Iron Man", but he realizes now that being the "Iron Man", an hero, someone that he wants to be, isn't necessarily the guy in a metal suit flying around that the world sees. In fact, he actually wouldn't mind just settling down with his lover and he would still view himself as a good guy, the hero that he wants to be, which is something that he hadn't considered until then. Hence, the somewhat symbolic destruction of his suits and his statement that he is Iron Man even without suits, which is also an over the top reaction, characteristic of Tony Stark.

However, the events of Winter Soldier happened after that. Hydra almost takes over the world and the only reason they don't succeed is because Captain America manages to barely avoid it.

Tony has realized that being someone worthy of the title "Iron Man", the person/hero that he wants to be, isn't necessarily the guy flying around in a metal suit... but that doesn't change the fact that Hydra would have still taken over the world if it was up to Tony, since he didn't do anything to avoid it. And the person that Tony wants to be might not require a flying metal suit, but it does require not sitting by and letting bad guys destroy the world. Which is why he helps Cap mop up Hydra, alongside the other Avengers, now using the suits, not as an essential part of who he is, but as tools.

And this is the precursor for how he is on Age of Ultron... Tony feels compelled by a sense of responsibility to do what he can due to the person that he wants to be, not because he views himself as that Iron Man persona... And that's when the Scarlet Witch puts his will to protect everything on overdrive with her vision, making him desperate to protect the planet from everything.

Coupled with everything else I had previously said, I don't see contradictions to his character.[/spoiler]

[ekrolo2]

And my answer remains the same: Tony should not act like this. Not because I disagree with the decision, I just don't buy that Tony WOULD act like this anymore.

Iron Man 3 was all about Tony being horribly paranoid and anxious about alien threats and his own inability to deal with this new world around him where he's just a guy in a tin suit fighting aliens and gods. So, he makes dozens of armors for months on end and goes so far as to make one remotely controlled by his brain & body to save him at any given moment. At the end of that movie, after he's proven that the suit isn't what makes him Iron Man, Tony chooses to not be afraid for himself and of the world around him.

[spoiler]I believe Iron Man 3 is about Tony's relationship between himself and the Iron Man persona that the world sees. Namely, how he views himself.

Ever since he became Iron Man, Tony has kind of identified himself as the Iron Man persona that the world sees, that world hero that he created, without really distinguishing it from himself. And in Iron Man 3 he is feeling the weight of being that persona.

The conclusion in Iron Man 3 is that Tony realizes that there is a distinction between that Iron Man persona that the world sees and himself, that he isn't defined by that persona and he doesn't necessarily want to be that persona... He still wants to be a good guy, an hero, someone that deserves the title of "Iron Man", but he realizes now that being the "Iron Man", an hero, someone that he wants to be, isn't necessarily the guy in a metal suit flying around that the world sees. In fact, he actually wouldn't mind just settling down with his lover and he would still view himself as a good guy, the hero that he wants to be, which is something that he hadn't considered until then. Hence, the somewhat symbolic destruction of his suits and his statement that he is Iron Man even without suits, which is also an over the top reaction, characteristic of Tony Stark.

However, the events of Winter Soldier happened after that. Hydra almost takes over the world and the only reason they don't succeed is because Captain America manages to barely avoid it.

Tony has realized that being someone worthy of the title "Iron Man", the person/hero that he wants to be, isn't necessarily the guy flying around in a metal suit... but that doesn't change the fact that Hydra would have still taken over the world if it was up to Tony, since he didn't do anything to avoid it. And the person that Tony wants to be might not require a flying metal suit, but it does require not sitting by and letting bad guys destroy the world. Which is why he helps Cap mop up Hydra, alongside the other Avengers, now using the suits, not as an essential part of who he is, but as tools.

And this is the precursor for how he is on Age of Ultron... Tony feels compelled by a sense of responsibility to do what he can due to the person that he wants to be, not because he views himself as that Iron Man persona... And that's when the Scarlet Witch puts his will to protect everything on overdrive with her vision, making him desperate to protect the planet from everything.

Coupled with everything else I had previously said, I don't see contradictions to his character.[/spoiler]

All your points about IM3 are very true, however, one element you miss is the element of fear. The reason Tony begins to identify himself as Iron Man when he only has the suit is his own fear of the world now that it has powerful Gods and aliens who can destroy him, and very nearly did in the Avengers, even with his greatest invention fairly easily. It's why he has flashbacks to nearly dying in the portal several times in the movie.

His monologue about how he is Iron Man even if you take away all his toys does bring his arc full circle about accepting himself as Iron Man regardless of the suit, but it's also Tony releasing this deep rooted fear of the world around him go. A fear which Age of Ultron brings back and takes advantage of in-spite of Iron Man 3 releasing him of it, creating a contradiction for him. With the exception of Thor, who's a deity and thus perceives things on a higher scale than humans, Wanda's mental attacks go after an already present fear/anxiety in a person and brings out to manipulate or break the target. Tony, after IM3, should not be THIS deeply afraid of world security even after the events of WS, if AoU spent more time before Tony get hit by Wanda we'd be able to understand his view point a little bit better but as it stands, IM3 leaves him okay then AoU has him afraid of the world again.

Then there's Civil War where Tony decides to take responsibility after hearing about the kid in Sokovia, it handles this fairly well until Spider-Man shows up. As I said, if Tony became aware of the truth about Bucky beforehand, Tony's growing recklessness and desire for revenge clouding his previously good motivation would serve as a good, in-character reason for him to bring Spidey, consequences be damned. But the movie does not convincingly bring him to an emotional enough place for me to buy this decision at all. Its a reccuring problem I have with a lot of the movie: characters sometimes act like the smallest thing is the worst spite they've ever suffered then shrug off complete betrayels that would warrant actual outbursts of emotion and anger.

[rereboy]

In Age of Ultron, Tony is once again deeply afraid of the world around him, Wanda wouldn't be able to spur him into making Ultron if that was the case. And make no mistake, Tony was heading in the direction of Ultron before the movie even starts, Wanda just helps it happen faster, so his character is regressed. Then he goes too far and it causes a lot of people to die but Tony seemingly realizes the mistake of going too far and tries not to do it.

[spoiler]It's not about him being afraid. Iron Man 3 wasn't about him being afraid, but about him feeling the weight of being the Iron Man persona that the world sees and the realization that he doesn't need to identify himself as such. In typical Tony Stark fashion, he goes overboard with that by destroying every suit.

In Age of Ultron, he helps the other Avengers out, not because it's what the Iron Man that the world sees would do, but because the man he wants to be wouldn't ignore it, and, once again, in Tony Stark fashion, he goes overboard with it, with a little help from Scarlet Witch.[/spoiler]

Civil War mostly keeps this consistent until Spider-Man shows up, that's a decision so blatantly against his motivation in that movie that I can't rationalize it as anything but "Fiege wants Spidey and in here he will go whether it makes sense or not!". Now, if the movie had Tony realize the truth about his parents death before he made this decision, I could have an easier time accepting this as Tony, in the spur of the moment, going too far solely for the sake of revenge. But he's not emotionally compromised enough for me to accept the decision as it stands in the movie.

[spoiler]There's no really significant difference between getting Peter and destroying every single suit to prove a point or building an A.I. from and unknown alien crystal that he doesn't truly understand to create a global defense system against every possible threat. They are all cases where Tony has good intentions but the means that he willing to employ to fulfill them show that he is, as is usual for him, going overboard and entering dubious territory that might backfire.[/spoiler]

It's the same reason I don't think Goku makes much sense after a certain point, in the Cell arc he admits that his own fuck ups are what cause these various disasters to happen and his decision to stay dead is him trying to act responsible. Then Super and the Boo arc happen and that leason goes out the window. You can't have your character admit his fucks up then have them happen over, and over, and over again without good cause, Civil War doesn't have that.

Not comparable, imo. Dragon Ball doesn't present satisfactory reasons for that to happen. I don't think that about these movies.

If it moved up the reveal of Bucky to an earlier point to explain why Tony is going too far, I could buy that, but he's too fine before that for me to rationalize his inconsistent decision making.

[spoiler]I don't agree. Going too far or being over the top has always been characteristic of Tony, but it has always been grounded in good intentions and it's those good intentions that allow him to blind himself when he starts going overboard since he focus on those good intentions. Regarding Bucky he only acts like that because he is seeing red and he hasn't had time to process the information, meaning that him going over the top about that could only be temporary. Spending the entire movie trying to kill Bucky despite knowing that he had been brainwashed wouldn't be consistent. We can see that at the end of the movie, Tony has calmed down and has already started to process the information rationally instead of emotionally, which is why he is not angry at Cap's letter and doesn't even answer the General's call[/spoiler]

All your points about IM3 are very true, however, one element you miss is the element of fear. The reason Tony begins to identify himself as Iron Man when he only has the suit is his own fear of the world now that it has powerful Gods and aliens who can destroy him, and very nearly did in the Avengers, even with his greatest invention fairly easily. It's why he has flashbacks to nearly dying in the portal several times in the movie.

His monologue about how he is Iron Man even if you take away all his toys does bring his arc full circle about accepting himself as Iron Man regardless of the suit, but it's also Tony releasing this deep rooted fear of the world around him go. A fear which Age of Ultron brings back and takes advantage of in-spite of Iron Man 3 releasing him of it, creating a contradiction for him. With the exception of Thor, who's a deity and thus perceives things on a higher scale than humans, Wanda's mental attacks go after an already present fear/anxiety in a person and brings out to manipulate or break the target. Tony, after IM3, should not be THIS deeply afraid of world security even after the events of WS, if AoU spent more time before Tony get hit by Wanda we'd be able to understand his view point a little bit better but as it stands, IM3 leaves him okay then AoU has him afraid of the world again.

Then there's Civil War where Tony decides to take responsibility after hearing about the kid in Sokovia, it handles this fairly well until Spider-Man shows up. As I said, if Tony became aware of the truth about Bucky beforehand, Tony's growing recklessness and desire for revenge clouding his previously good motivation would serve as a good, in-character reason for him to bring Spidey, consequences be damned. But the movie does not convincingly bring him to an emotional enough place for me to buy this decision at all. Its a reccuring problem I have with a lot of the movie: characters sometimes act like the smallest thing is the worst spite they've ever suffered then shrug off complete betrayels that would warrant actual outbursts of emotion and anger.

[spoiler]I don't exactly agree with your fear analysis.

As was mentioned by the guys making the movie, his flashbacks indicate him dealing with some episodes of post-traumatic stress. These episodes happen, not because what happened with him was that traumatic since he has gone through more traumatic events before (like in Iron Man 1), but because the sheer weight of identifying himself as the persona of Iron Man, hero to the world, who fights off alien invasions alongside monster and gods, is stressing him and taking its toll on him.

That means that in Iron Man 3, he isn't exactly feeling fear from the aliens and other threats that can be a menace towards Earth... He is feeling pressure instead because he over-identifies himself with the shiny metal knight who fights against them. And ultimately those episodes are resolved when Tony stops over-identifying himself with that persona, and starts to identify himself with the person that he wants to be, who doesn't have to be necessarily a guy in a flying iron suit.

And in Age of Ultron, he is also not feeling fear from these aliens... what he is feeling is an overwhelming need and sense of duty to do everything he can to prevent it, because the person that he wants to be wouldn't stand by and let it happen.

If his problem was actually fear like you say, his episodes of stress wouldn't have cleared up.[/spoiler]

[ekrolo2]

It's not about him being afraid. Iron Man 3 wasn't about him being afraid, but about him feeling the weight of being the Iron Man persona that the world sees and the realization that he doesn't need to identify himself as such. In typical Tony Stark fashion, he goes overboard with that by destroying every suit.

In Age of Ultron, he helps the other Avengers out in Age of Ultron, not because it's what the Iron Man that the world sees would do, but because the man he wants to be wouldn't ignore it, and, once again, in Tony Stark fashion, he goes overboard with it, with a little help from Scarlet Witch.

The fear of the unknown is an element in Tony's arc, this fear of Gods and aliens coming down and bringing everything into chaos is what drives him to obsessively build Iron Man suits throughout the months following the attack on New York. If Tony wasn't afraid, he'd have no reason to freak out over flashbacks to New York but he does, his persona crisis comes from this event where the fear of the unknown is making him anxious and lacking in his usual confidence.

There's no really significant difference between getting Peter and destroying every single suit to prove a point or building an A.I. from and unknown alien crystal that he doesn't truly understand to create a global defense system against every possible threat. They are all cases where Tony has good intentions but the means that he willing to employ to fulfill them show that he is, as is usual for him, going overboard and entering dubious territory that might backfire.

And as I've said it above, we've had Tony realize that good intentions being taken too far is an issue and then he repeats the same mistake over and over again with no good justification. It's the worst case with Spider-man since the death of a young man is what spurs him into joining the Accords and the movie does a bad job of logically and/or emotionally bringing Tony to a place where he's choosing to put another young man like that into a risky fight. Like I said before, if he knew about Bucky and was hellbent on dragging him back, I could buy this, but the movie doesn't do that and Spider-Man's inclusion breaks any standing Tony has.

It's the same reason I don't think Goku makes much sense after a certain point, in the Cell arc he admits that his own fuck ups are what cause these various disasters to happen and his decision to stay dead is him trying to act responsible. Then Super and the Boo arc happen and that leason goes out the window. You can't have your character admit his fucks up then have them happen over, and over, and over again without good cause, Civil War doesn't have that.

Not comparable, imo. Dragon Ball doesn't present satisfactory reasons for that to happen. I don't think that about these movies.

Dragon Ball has Goku admit that he's presence is what causes trouble to appear, he doesn't blatantly come out and say "me being a moronic fighting junkie make bad things happen" but given the whole Gohan fiasco, I think its pretty easy to infer that's what he means. Then when he does stuff like any of the shit in Super and the Boo arc, needlessly putting lives at risk purely for his own entertainment, it goes against a concious choice of him admiting he's a fuck up and not wanting to repeat his mistakes.

I don't agree. Going too far or being over the top has always been characteristic of Tony, but it has always been grounded in good intentions and it's those good intentions that allow him to blind himself when he starts going overboard since he focus on those good intentions. Regarding Bucky he only acts like that because he is seeing red and he hasn't had time to process the information, meaning that him going over the top about that could only be temporary. Spending the entire movie trying to kill Bucky despite knowing that he had been brainwashed wouldn't be consistent.

[/quote]
Tony has also shown to go overboard when you fuck with his emotions, not when he's calm. Why is he so dead set on fortifying his house and himself with dozens of Iron Man suits? Because he's having an existential crisis and is practically afraid of his own shadow. Why does he do the thing with Ultron? Wanda screws with his emotions and makes him hasty and reckless, with Spider-Man? There is no such emotional baggage weighing him down, Tony of sound mind and body decides "A dead kid is what made me do all of this, so I'm gonna put another kid at risk because.... reasons...".

I don't need Tony to go full on Batffleck where he's gunning for Bucky's head the entire movie, but the reveal, much like with Vision in AOU, comes far too late in the story when it could've added some weight to earlier events and made Tony's Spider-man decision more understandable. But nope, we've got have everyone snark at one another in the air port fight because as long as we have funny quips and snark, the audiences will love it!

[rereboy]

The fear of the unknown is an element in Tony's arc, this fear of Gods and aliens coming down and bringing everything into chaos is what drives him to obsessively build Iron Man suits throughout the months following the attack on New York. If Tony wasn't afraid, he'd have no reason to freak out over flashbacks to New York but he does, his persona crisis comes from this event where the fear of the unknown is making him anxious and lacking in his usual confidence.

[spoiler]Tony has been building several suits consistently, always making upgrades. In Iron Man 1, Iron Man 2 and in The Avengers, we see plenty of different armors (there's at least 6 different versions in those three movies, almost surely more), which goes to show that he was already doing that before the end of the Avengers, and goes against the notion that it was due to fear.

You are relying too much on the notion of fear to explain how Tony thinks and acts. Fear is not Tony's drive. Tony's fear regarding seeing Earth destroyed is more or less the same as anyone's else. Nobody wants that to happen and everyone fears that. If it was mainly about fear, Iron Man 3 would have had an incredibly stupid conclusion since it would essentially be the same as Tony saying "oh, well, if the Earth is destroyed, screw it, if it happens it, it happens... In fact, I'm going to destroy all my suits because whatever, I'm letting go, I'm not afraid, and what I care is kissing this blonde".

You may choose to interpret that way, but, imo, that doesn't make sense, nor was it the intention. The point was Tony's view of himself and of course there's an element of fear regarding the threats to Earth, but no more that it's supposed to be... that fear is not Tony's drive, and he doesn't blow up the suits because he doesn't fear seeing Earth destroyed, but because he is making a statement regarding his identity and who he wants to be. The most relevant fear is in regards to himself, to how he sees himself, to fail to be who he wants to be.

Also, in Age of Ultron, we also see Thor having a similar vision to Tony's. He sees that Asgard has somehow fallen. That is so because Thor, much like Tony, feels a sense of duty in regards to his actions and the consequences for his home... but that doesn't mean that he is driven by the fear that it might happen.[/spoiler]

And as I've said it above, we've had Tony realize that good intentions being taken too far is an issue and then he repeats the same mistake over and over again with no good justification. It's the worst case with Spider-man since the death of a young man is what spurs him into joining the Accords and the movie does a bad job of logically and/or emotionally bringing Tony to a place where he's choosing to put another young man like that into a risky fight. Like I said before, if he knew about Bucky and was hellbent on dragging him back, I could buy this, but the movie doesn't do that and Spider-Man's inclusion breaks any standing Tony has.

[spoiler]How many people are able to stop being the way they are (in regards to their bad qualities) immediately after they realize it? That's not how it works. It's hard to change a fundamental aspect of ourselves, and most of the time it doesn't even happen. A person doesn't just realize a fundamental negative aspect of how he is and starts not being that way from that point on. Just because Tony often realizes that he goes too far after he does it, it doesn't mean that he will easily stop having that characteristic. More importantly, Tony will think that he is right and isn't being over the top until after he has already crossed the line, not realizing that he has crossed the line before that point.

This is why I commented earlier that consistency is not about doing what makes sense or is logical from a unbiased point of view.

In any case, a civilian death doesn't really compare to the recruitment of Spider-man. Spider-man had already decided, by himself, to be on the streets fighting bad guys and putting himself in danger. Nobody asked him to, he decided for himself. Besides that, he was almost surely the physically strongest person on that fight and one of the most powerful. Tony had a video of Spider-man being hit by a car at full speed and not even being fazed by it. Black Widow was a joke compared to Spider-man and she was there. Tony knew all this and he specifically asked Peter to come, he didn't force him. The only issue here is Tony not really realizing that Peter is a bit too young and uninformed about the conflict to be making those kind of decisions and that, at the end of the day, Tony is basically just using him. That's why it's going a bit too far, but, once again, Tony, blinded by his good intentions and rationalizations, doesn't even notice it until after the fact. But, once again, in no way that compares to a normal civilian being caught in the crossfire.[/spoiler]

Dragon Ball has Goku admit that he's presence is what causes trouble to appear, he doesn't blatantly come out and say "me being a moronic fighting junkie make bad things happen" but given the whole Gohan fiasco, I think its pretty easy to infer that's what he means. Then when he does stuff like any of the shit in Super and the Boo arc, needlessly putting lives at risk purely for his own entertainment, it goes against a concious choice of him admiting he's a fuck up and not wanting to repeat his mistakes.

What I mean is that Dragon Ball only offers a paper thin justification for it that doesn't survive any meaningful scrutiny and that is only ok because Dragon Ball wasn't meant to be analyzed deeply. This is not the case in the movies discussed, imo.

Tony has also shown to go overboard when you fuck with his emotions, not when he's calm. Why is he so dead set on fortifying his house and himself with dozens of Iron Man suits? Because he's having an existential crisis and is practically afraid of his own shadow. Why does he do the thing with Ultron? Wanda screws with his emotions and makes him hasty and reckless, with Spider-Man? There is no such emotional baggage weighing him down, Tony of sound mind and body decides "A dead kid is what made me do all of this, so I'm gonna put another kid at risk because.... reasons...".

[spoiler]He has that many suits because he is consistently building suits, as he had been doing before the end of the The Avengers. You are reading way too far about into the fear element... fear was never his drive.

He builds Ultron because he doesn't want to be the one who didn't do what he could to save Earth, that's not the person he wants to be at that moment. His fear about Earth being destroyed is not really greater than any other normal person, everyone fears that. If there's an actually important fear, is just the fear of failing, of not being who he wants to be, which is consistent with Iron Man 3.

Spider-man in no way compares to a normal civilian, as I've explained. Spider-man chose for himself to be on the streets fighting against bad guys and he was one of the most powerful guys in the fight.[/spoiler]

I don't need Tony to go full on Batffleck where he's gunning for Bucky's head the entire movie, but the reveal, much like with Vision in AOU, comes far too late in the story when it could've added some weight to earlier events and made Tony's Spider-man decision more understandable. But nope, we've got have everyone snark at one another in the air port fight because as long as we have funny quips and snark, the audiences will love it!

[spoiler]Don't understand this criticism. The humorous moments never detracted from the rest of the movie.[/spoiler]

[ekrolo2]

snip

I decided to shorten my rebuttal since a few paragraphs would just be me repeating myself and that seems redundant so I'm just gonna address some points.

I never said fear is the sole drive of Tony's arc in IM3 but to deny it being an element present would be doing a disservice to a great movie. Yes, Tony spends time building suits but, as we know from Civil War, the movies roughly take place in real time and from IM1 to Avengers, Tony has about what, 3-4 suits in the span of 2-3 years? Iron Man 3 takes place a few months after the Avengers and during said time he builds several dozen suits. Not even as a casual hobby, but obsessively spends time in his workshop making them. He couldn't even be bothered to meet Pepper properly and sent the Mark 42 in his stead so he could keep doing his work.

As we see throughout the movie, Tony's fear of aliens and Gods is the cause of his existential crisis. It's why he feels so insecure and inferior in contrast to his usual cocky persona, it's why he has a panic attack on the way to Miami when he hears the suit won't be ready to protect him and its only when the kid reminds him that he's just as effective without the suit do Tony's anxiety attacks stop. That's what the point of him being without the suit for the entire second act was about: Tony overcoming his anxiety and fear of the world and his vulnerability in it. Tony's monolog, in the end, isn't him saying "Screw it, aliens can attack and I don't care!" but it's more of him choosing not to let that fear of said aliens rule his life the way it does through a LOT of Iron Man 3.

And you're right, a person doesn't immediately shift to being perfectly fine once they realize a mistake they consistently make, we can all attest to this. But when the stories have Tony's bad decisions have world breaking consequences and we repeatedly have him verbally spout out how he's figured out what he's doing wrong, it makes his relapses really, really hard to swallow.

You also hit the nail on the head with why the Spider-Man thing is problematic, much like half the people in this movie, he has no reason to be here. The Sokovia Accords mean jack shit with a side of fuck all to Spider-Man and Tony isn't even informing this kid into what he's bringing him into, he's essentially using the kid's hero worship of him to get an extra man in there. But that's the thing: Peter is a kid, he's not an adult who can choose to go into this the way Black Widow can, he's nothing but another grunt being tossed into a fight that doesn't matter for him simply on the whims of a guy who's bad decisions killed a young man already. Peter might choose to fight thugs in his free time but there's a big difference between fighting crooks on the streets of New York and being caught in a battle royale between the most powerful men and women on the planet. Remember what happens to Rhodey? Yeah, have fun explaining something like that to another grieving parent figure when it was your fault again if that happened to Peter, Tony.

Lastly, the humor really grated on my nerves in the air port fight. I don't find the quips as obnoxious as some people, in rather overblown fashions, do but fuck do I care less about the stakes when the people fighting one another spend half the time shooting the shit with each other than I don't know, take it seriously?

[sangofe]

The fact that he's making money out of tracing other people's work is disgusting.

Not really a fan of the way you said it but not really against it either..
I know how hard the original creators worked.. and it's sad someone getting praise by tracing their work..

But when this is in YouTube, I prefer to think it will reach the social media and thus somehow to toie..
See where I am going with this..

Did you mean Toei Animation? Do you honestly hope Toei would make something official of low quality like this?

[Baggie_Saiyan]

You'd be surprised. I see people give TDKRises crap for how it fixes Batman's spine then turn around and call Tom King's recent version amazeballs even though its some of the stupidest shit of all time.

I'd never forgot him bringing the JL and then them doing absolutely nothing I dropped his run after the Gotham girl arc due to budget constraints but haven't heard of good things about his run since /;

(TDKRises deserves as much flack as it gets).

Bringing this back to DB. You're right the Black arc was fan service galore, I still don't like the Vegetto thing.

TDKRises and Iron Man 3 never deserved half the shit they got, I'll take both of them over the likes of Civil War.

Oh for sure compared to films like that, CW was complete trash.