Roshi's antics

[JulieYBM]

I always find the 'concern' over this topic as eye-rolling as I find the hand-waving of the concern because I feel both sides just get away from the matter at hand. That matter at hand being that this is a work of fiction and exists primarily to express simple feelings from the creator. I do feel the subject of sexuality and lewdness is unfairly targeted in these sort of discussions because the west (or mainstream media and outlets in general) have such a repressed sense of sexuality that any sort of art that treats the idea nonchalantly becomes the subject of instant damnation. Using Dragon Ball as an outlet to further this damnation of open sexuality is, I offer, worthy of the rolling of one's eyes. Nevertheless, I definitely find the hand-waving of the topic as being illegitimate based on the notion that any and everyone who complains are merely 'social justice warriors' or 'Tumblr users' also worthy of the rolling of my eyes. Can't we do better than that?

That being said, it's fiction. Toriyama just wants to draw some titties and pussy and imagine a world where it's okay to be so openly deviant and one can go on with their business after they've had a little fun. I don't think that's wrong, whether you're a man or a woman, so long as nobody real gets hurt along the way.

No one is complaining that breasts are being exposed, people justifiably so are disgusted by an old man creeping on young women to the point he's watching Bulma on the toilet, or in Super, him sexually harassing Yurin throughout the episode and even kidnapping her all as part of some "joke". It's not funny, it's not fanservice, it's just creepy and weird.

Why is it 'creepy' and 'weird'? I don't find the stuff with the Muten Roushi all that funny a lot of the time, either, but I also can't see any reason to describe it as being 'creepy' and 'weird' when the content otherwise has no message of harm towards real people. If anything it's irreverent towards itself, like drawing a rock in the middle of a panel as a triangle when all of the other rocks are squares.

[VegettoEX]

Why is it 'creepy' and 'weird'? I don't find the stuff with the Muten Roushi all that funny a lot of the time, either, but I also can't see any reason to describe it as being 'creepy' and 'weird' when the content otherwise has no message of harm towards real people. If anything it's irreverent towards itself, like drawing a rock in the middle of a panel as a triangle when all of the other rocks are squares.

I'm getting rather fed up with the way you've adapted your posting style over the years. You complain about people on "both sides" missing the point and dragging the conversation away, yet here you are pulling it to some existential question about rocks that are triangles and squares.

Since you've been around for so long, I feel a little more comfortable being so direct with you here than I would otherwise be with someone else: you know damn well what's creepy about it, you're pulling your usual schtick to justify your own perviness, and you're equally unwilling to have the actual conversation at hand. Enough, Jacob.

[rereboy]

It's humor. Humor revolves about wrong stuff, like a guy getting hit in the head with a brick thrown from the top of a building (Home Alone 2), which wouldn't be so fun in real life. What matters is the context and, just like in Home Alone 2, it's clear that it's not meant to be taken seriously. That's about it.

[Doctor.]

Roshi's antics aren't glorified. He gets consistently pummeled by Chi-Chi, Bulma, or whoever he's trying to grope that time of the week. Considering the scenes are meant to be gags, that's an appropriate punishment. If he were to suffer real life consequences, then we'd need to put Goku in jail because abandoning your kids isn't okay and Vegeta should get the death penalty for being a terrorist.

[VegettoEX]

Goku does not abandon his children; there is a support system in place the (few) times he leaves... and/or he's been killed, which I don't think you can really hold against the dude.

Vegeta's (and other characters') mass genocide is on an unrealistic scale and appropriately-unrealistic, fantastical penalties are difficult to convey. The only real good example I can think of in other series is Jean Grey / Phoenix, and that's been walked back countless times.

I see this constant inability to... or rather, it's a constant narrow view that conflates every event in the series on the same scale. The turtle hermit's antics are based in reality, whereas giant galactic fights are not. And yet the series doesn't know how to treat them accordingly, leading to this very type of conversation and analysis. The series doesn't know what to say about it, so we have to have that conversation.

And no, I don't think "lulz they slapped him!" is a fully-appropriate, comprehensive commentary by the series / its producers / Toriyama.

[Michsi]

What I'm really curious to find out is what the opinion in Japan is and if there is as much controversy around this subject as it is over here. As far as I've heard,there is a serious problem specifically with this type of behavior. Groping on trains or taking pictures under skirts etc. I think Japan has one of the lowest crime in the world, but I don't think that would include such misdemeanors. Or are such reports exaggerated?

[Doctor.]

Goku does not abandon his children; there is a support system in place the (few) times he leaves... and/or he's been killed, which I don't think you can really hold against the dude.

Yes, the support system is his wife. That's still a scummy thing to do if we look it from a real-life perspective.

I see this constant inability to... or rather, it's a constant narrow view that conflates every event in the series on the same scale. The turtle hermit's antics are based in reality, whereas giant galactic fights are not. And yet the series doesn't know how to treat them accordingly, leading to this very type of conversation and analysis. The series doesn't know what to say about it, so we have to have that conversation.

Murder is absolutely something based on reality, just because it happens on a higher scale here doesn't mean it's automatically meaningless.

Why do we need to have this conversation? Who is this harming? Art isn't meant to be comforting. It's like looking at Goethe's Faust and saying "Hey man, I don't like how he sexes up a 14-year old." Okay? And? What are you getting at? Is Kame-sennin sexually assaulting women not okay? Even the series acknowledges that, so what do you want to prove?

If you want to have this conversation, then first lay out your goal. Saying "this is not cool" isn't good enough.

And no, I don't think "lulz they slapped him!" is a fully-appropriate, comprehensive commentary by the series / its producers / Toriyama.

What would an appropriate response be, then?

[Kokonoe]

Goku does not abandon his children; there is a support system in place the (few) times he leaves... and/or he's been killed, which I don't think you can really hold against the dude.

Yes, the support system is his wife. That's still a scummy thing to do if we look it from a real-life perspective.

He literally saves the world countless times and when he isn't dead still finds time to take care of his son. I really am not sure what you're getting at here.

Murder is absolutely something based on reality, just because is happens on a higher scale doesn't mean it's automatically meaningless.

So blowing up an entire planet killing millions of people is based on reality? Nonetheless, the show made it very clear Vegeta's actions were deplorable. Roshi's actions on the other hand are played up as comedy when it is not funny at all to see this dude prey on young women.

Why do we need to have this conversation? Who is this harming? Art isn't meant to be comforting. It's like looking at Goethe's Faust and saying "Hey man, I don't like how he sexes up a 14-year old." Okay? And? What are you getting at? Is Kame-sennin sexually assaulting women not okay? Even the series acknowledges that, so what do you want to prove?

Because I don't know, hand waving sexual harassment as a joke is not a good thing to promote consistently throughout a series? And no, the series doesn't really do that. It's played up as a joke, something for you to laugh at and he gets swatted away like a dog trying to hump someone's leg. Not like an actual grown adult preying on young women.

[Bullza]

It's not funny, it's not fanservice, it's just creepy and weird.

That's the point, that's where the humour comes from.

As I mentioned, one of the most popular side characters in Family Guy, one of the most popular cartoons of all time, is Herbert. Herbert's entire character is that he is an old man who has a thing for small boys.

In the real world he would be a sick human being that would require shooting. However Family Guy isn't real, it's a cartoon and Herbert and him being a paedophile is hilarious.

Deadpool was one of the most successful movies that came out last year. He slaughtered people left and right, used a decapitated head to spell out a name. Involved a Taxi Driver who kidnapped another man and shoved him in his car trunk which he then crashed.

In the real world beheading people is usually looked down on, as is kidnapping. However Deadpool is not real, it's a make believe Superhero movie and people were laughing their asses off over the scene.

Master Roshi is a pervert who for humour, sexually assaults young woman and that's perfectly fine and hilarious because it is all happening in a cartoon to animated characters that don't actually exist.

[Doctor.]

He literally saves the world countless times and when he isn't dead still finds time to take care of his son. I really am not sure what you're getting at here.

Sure, Roshi also saved the world. What's your point? I'm saying if we're gonna look at Roshi's antics from a real-life perspective, then every character in the series is guilty of some crime. If we're ignoring Goku skipping out on child support because he saved the world, shouldn't we ignore Roshi's sexual harassment? Or is one crime more important than the other? It's a stupid complaint to make in a series full of characters with dubious morality.

Roshi's actions on the other hand are played up as comedy when it is not funny at all to see this dude prey on young women.

Because I don't know, hand waving sexual harassment as a joke is not a good thing to promote consistently throughout a series? And no, the series doesn't really do that. It's played up as a joke, something for you to laugh at and he gets swatted away like a dog trying to hump someone's leg. Not like an actual grown adult preying on young women.

His actions are played up as inappropriate, and that's all the cue we, the audience, need to know that what he's doing shouldn't be done. I don't know what else you want, to be honest. It's easy to complain but I haven't seen anyone suggest a 'solution'. I hope you don't think he should stop, because that gets rid of one of the character's defining features. And putting him in jail as a punishment isn't very Dragon Ball-esque.

[Kokonoe]

He literally saves the world countless times and when he isn't dead still finds time to take care of his son. I really am not sure what you're getting at here.

Sure, Roshi also saved the world. What's your point? I'm saying if we're gonna look at Roshi's antics from a real-life perspective, then every character in the series is guilty of some crime.

Roshi's actions on the other hand are played up as comedy when it is not funny at all to see this dude prey on young women.

Because I don't know, hand waving sexual harassment as a joke is not a good thing to promote consistently throughout a series? And no, the series doesn't really do that. It's played up as a joke, something for you to laugh at and he gets swatted away like a dog trying to hump someone's leg. Not like an actual grown adult preying on young women.

His actions are played up as inappropriate, and that's all the cue we, the audience, need to know that what he's doing shouldn't be done. I don't know what else you want, to be honest. It's easy to complain but I haven't seen anyone suggest a 'solution'. I hope you don't think he should stop, because that gets rid of one of the character's defining features. And putting him in jail as a punishment isn't very Dragon Ball-esque.

I can't. Someone else will have to continue this discussion because jesus christ I can't.

[ABED]

Roshi's antics aren't deemed as appropriate. I do find his actions often creepy, but as far as I can recall, he's not rewarded for his behavior.

While the scale of Vegeta's crimes may be fantastical, there are still real life mass murderers. Vegeta's actions are deemed to be evil, but by the end, he's basically let off the hook when Shen Long deems him to be a good guy when not two days prior, he murdered a stadium of innocent people.

[Doctor.]

I think Roshi getting hit or slapped is actually beneficial for the character of the woman doing it (usually Bulma or Chi-Chi). It showcases self-respect and strength. And for Roshi himself, it's a fun character quirk.

Non-issue, really.

[precita]

Admittedly I thought the Roshi peeking on Bulma in the toilet by getting small was funny. Especially since he didn't get to see anything and gets flushed.

[WittyUsername]

Given that sexual misconduct has become a really hot-button topic these days, Roshi’s character as a whole doesn’t feel as funny as he used to be.

[Cipher]

What would an appropriate response be, then?

I can see why you'd ask this based on the wording of VegettoEX's post, but I think it's starting two steps too far in.

Rather than it being about an "appropriate response," the series would have been better off not mining this type of behavior for humor in the first place, since light-hearted as it is, it's unequipped to actually present an appropriate response.

We're asking, "What would have been an appropriate response to sell this gag?", but the answer is "It shouldn't have been a gag."

Anything else leaves us with where the series currently stands, which is an implicit message of, "It's bad but not thaaaat bad. Old men and pigs gonna do what old men and pigs gonna do, and it earns the equivalent of a slap on the wrist."

[Doctor.]

Rather than it being about an "appropriate response" after the series would have been better off not mining this type of behavior for humor in the first place, since light-hearted as it is, it's unequipped to actually present an appropriate response.

But it's been done already. People here aren't talking about how to stop it from happening in the future, they're asking about how serious it is that it was done in the first place.

but the answer is "It shouldn't have been a gag."

But that's a useless answer and it adds nothing to the conversation some people want to so desperately have.

[Cipher]

Doctor., I believe you're mistaking the goal of this thread as being action-oriented, rather than analyzing and discussing our feelings on/the impact of the series as it exists. The end goal is to come to terms with the fiction we have (and I suppose discuss how this could/would be handled in future material, now that Dragon Ball's ongoing again), how we feel about it, what type of tone this element deserves to be given, etc.

This is exactly the same goal as every reflective thread on the forum, and indeed every thread not explicitly labeled "Let's fix (whatever)." This one doesn't suddenly become different because it's about social reflection or impact.

As far as that type of response being "useless,"

1) I'm not sure how collectively rewriting the series sexual
harassment gags is somehow more useful, assuming that would even be anyone's goal (or possible).

2) If saying, "Here is a series we love, and there is nothing wrong with it," and "Here is a series we love, but the consensus is that this really stands out as an issue," draws no distinction for you, I'm not sure I know how to continue this conversation or what you think the point of discussing, analyzing, or reflecting on the series is at all.

[rereboy]

Given that sexual misconduct has become a really hot-button topic these days, Roshi’s character as a whole doesn’t feel as funny as he used to be.

Imo, we shouldn't start trying to shut down humor just because we didn't found a particular piece of humor funny.

[Asura]

I think the gags that Toriyama has written Roshi in with regards to the DB manga (and I'd also extend it to the DB anime) have been fine overall. Remember that Dragon Ball was a show/manga aimed towards younger kids, and so the trope of the dirty old man who lusts after hot babes but always fails isn't particularly weird, creepy, or out of place in a gag manga/anime. The worst he ever did was poke Ranfan when she was unconscious, claiming that he's a doctor. I thought it was a funny enough gag for a cartoon, and there was actually a punchline there, that he says he's a doctor. Combine this with the joke of Ranfan trying to win by seducing Roshi, a pervert, and well, it's a joke. Contrast this to some of the stuff he does in Z (which was added in by TOEI) and well... it's a bit of a difference. In Z you had things like him pushing his face into 18's tits and motorboating her (while her toddler was right there, no less). There wasn't really any kind of punchline or gag here, just straight up awkwardness. It can barely even be considered a joke.

I feel that some of Roshi's antics are funny, and others are just creepy/weird/not humorous in the slightest. The vast majority of the time (or just about every example I can think of) where Roshi is creepy/weird/not humorous is when he's written by TOEI, and it's not a gag/joke from Toriyama himself. The absolute worst example of this comes from episode 89 of Super where Roshi drags a helpless, screaming woman off to a room somewhere, dresses her up, and then chases her around trying to pounce on her. This was the most awkward scene I've ever had to sit and watch through. Another poor one was 105 of Super where Roshi heavily implies that he's going to rape a female contender (or at the very least, the writing implies it even if the character himself didn't mean to) and the woman runs off the ring screaming that no one would want to marry her afterwards.

Jokes like these just fall so flat and completely miss what the humor was about with Roshi in the original DB, where you knew that Roshi would never, ever rape a woman. He'd try to touch them, or spy on them in the typical dirty old man trope that's existed in every form of media for a long time. The joke is that the dirty old man rarely ever succeeds, and if he does succeed there's immediate retribution afterwards, and it better be funny at the very least. What also added to the humor was the way in which the women would usually react. They didn't start running around and screaming like Yurin did in ep. 98, or run off the arena for fear of being raped like in 105. Bulma would usually smack him for it and it'd be done, or Launch would pull out a machine gun and start shooting at him.

I think as our culture as a whole has grown overly PC, so too has criticism of any and every kind of joke of a sexual nature. People try and police/silence jokes, language, and opinions that they don't like now in the western world, and social justice has gone absolutely rampant and haywire, and you are punished with thought crimes if you even dare go against the agenda of these people. You are not allowed to find these things funny, you are not allowed to laugh, you are not allowed to make jokes about these things now as they're too "taboo". BUT with all of that being said, sometimes jokes simply aren't funny. Sometimes they're taken too far to where it goes from being a joke to just being straight up awkward and uncomfortable. People have a right to be disgusted by some of Roshi's antics because some of them are just straight up poorly written jokes. When you're writing jokes about someone who is a pervert, either they land and they're funny, or they don't land and they're uncomfortable and/or offensive. Even the most serious of topics should be able to be laughed at, but if you're going to try and make a joke out of a serious topic, it better be funny or else it comes off as all sorts of wrong, and sometimes that's what happens with Roshi. Sometimes the jokes land, sometimes they don't. When they do, they're funny and they should continue. When they don't, they're not funny and they need to stop.,