Ever since Super's release, people are very quick to dismiss all criticisms about power level inconsistencies. Why?

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

So there seems to be a consensus that anyone who wants some sort of consistency in strength is regarded as not being a real fan of the show or annoying. But when the case represents itself so clearly , why wouldn't you expect people being vocal about it? Would you find the same enjoyment if this wasnt Dragon ball? If no, doesnt that mean your standards for this show has been set low? Or having double- standards?

Power scalling or level was bs to begin with now its turned into 11 and thats bothering people.
Imagine at the end of Buu saga you' re ssj3-tier level and shortly after that you became a god and trained with the likes of Whis for a while in your base form..... now 17 who has been training (how he trained and how he got this strong is unknown yet defenders buy into his power leap but criticize Frieza s leap....ok) training probably all by his own and yet was able to not only push Goku in his base form but also in his ssj form to the point Goku had to transform into his blue form and guess what 17 was still holding back ooh but lets convienently ignore this and say only Goku was the only one holding back.
And lets not forget base Vegeta tanking ssj 3 Gotenks.

So how strong is 17 and how did he get so strong? If you dont know then why are you defending something you yourself have no answers to? And if the broken power scalling does not bother you why do you then bother with people who clearly do? People are vocal about because it keeps happening time and time again.

2) ssb is losing its charm by Goku spamming it.
self explanatory

We bother with them because that's ALL they ever seem to want to talk about. The show's not just about powerscaling. There's actual character, charm, and emotion to be found, great interactions between familiar and new faces, and situations that are completely out of context for our heroes. The issue is that all other discussion is drowned out, and people are sick and tired of seeing it constantly over and over, overshadowing everything else that we enjoy.

As well, people go ON AND ON about how broken the powerscaling with only the negative. Why don't these people try to rationalize with things for once? If you're gonna complain, then at least give the other side a try before you stick to your corner.

[TheMikado]

The shows entire theme is about power.
It's like having an anime themed around love and romance, but the relationships are ridiculous, all over the place, and don't make any sense.

Like it or not the Central theme of Dragonball especially since the Z era has be power. Not great character interactions or anything else. Those are elements. Not the main theme.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

The shows entire theme is about power.
It's like having an anime themed around love and romance, but the relationships are ridiculous, all over the place, and don't make any sense.

Like it or not the Central theme of Dragonball especially since the Z era has be power. Not great character interactions or anything else. Those are elements. Not the main theme.

The main theme is fights with strong opponents.

I've said it before, but it needs saying again: If you people had curbed your powerscaling bloodlust, this thread wouldn't have been necessary. KaiserNeko put it best when he made that initial comment.

The powerscaling complaints consumed all other discussion to a distressing degree, and people finally snapped.

[Shuby]

So there seems to be a consensus that anyone who wants some sort of consistency in strength is regarded as not being a real fan of the show or annoying. But when the case represents itself so clearly , why wouldn't you expect people being vocal about it? Would you find the same enjoyment if this wasnt Dragon ball? If no, doesnt that mean your standards for this show has been set low? Or having double- standards?

Power scalling or level was bs to begin with now its turned into 11 and thats bothering people.
Imagine at the end of Buu saga you' re ssj3-tier level and shortly after that you became a god and trained with the likes of Whis for a while in your base form..... now 17 who has been training (how he trained and how he got this strong is unknown yet defenders buy into his power leap but criticize Frieza s leap....ok) training probably all by his own and yet was able to not only push Goku in his base form but also in his ssj form to the point Goku had to transform into his blue form and guess what 17 was still holding back ooh but lets convienently ignore this and say only Goku was the only one holding back.
And lets not forget base Vegeta tanking ssj 3 Gotenks.

So how strong is 17 and how did he get so strong? If you dont know then why are you defending something you yourself have no answers to? And if the broken power scalling does not bother you why do you then bother with people who clearly do? People are vocal about because it keeps happening time and time again.

2) ssb is losing its charm by Goku spamming it.
self explanatory

We bother with them because that's ALL they ever seem to want to talk about. The show's not just about powerscaling. There's actual character, charm, and emotion to be found, great interactions between familiar and new faces, and situations that are completely out of context for our heroes. The issue is that all other discussion is drowned out, and people are sick and tired of seeing it constantly over and over, overshadowing everything else that we enjoy.

As well, people go ON AND ON about how broken the powerscaling with only the negative. Why don't these people try to rationalize with things for once? If you're gonna complain, then at least give the other side a try before you stick to your corner.

Well correct me if i am wrong but isn't this tournament called the tournament of power? So now we have a tournament which is based on which fighter is the strongest, so powerlevels and strength do matter then ever before, because it's mostly about fighting. And if, which seems like the majority of the fandom and more and more people are confused/irritated/annoyed by the fact that characters in the show are getting stronger or are competing with stronger characters without any sory of expalantion, well shit you expect people to dance? Stop defending bad writing , which probably the writers hope we'll do. What is there to rationalize then? When things are happening before your eyes without any sort of explanation. And i am sorry the side-characters being relevant after 75+ episodes is unjustifiable, any other anime would've gotten even more criticized but Super is getting time and time again a free pass. Have you forgotten what did these new or old characters do in BOG arc, ROF arc, fake copy Vegeta arc, u6 arc hell even to a large extend FT arc? Yes we've seen great character development and interaction in these slice of life eps, but that by no means is enough and justifiable.

[VegettoEX]

This is the Tournament of Power, sure. But the Tenka'ichi Budokai was the greatest under the heavens... yet was neither under the heavens, nor all-encompassing of all places with relation to the heavens.

This is the kinda stuff that drives me bonkers. Folks get so pedantic about things that there's no conversation to be had. Minds are made up before even entering the discussion.

Why bother having a conversation with you if you don't actually want one?

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

This is the Tournament of Power, sure. But the Tenka'ichi Budokai was the greatest under the heavens... yet was neither under the heavens, nor all-encompassing of all places with relation to the heavens.

This is the kinda stuff that drives me bonkers. Folks get so pedantic about things that there's no conversation to be had. Minds are made up before even entering the discussion.

Why bother having a conversation with you if you don't actually want one?

I do admit, I'm guilty of this too.

I enjoy the episodes, mostly for the great fights, character interactions, and genuine emotion.

Thus, it frustrates me to no end to see all that I enjoy being shredded just because people seem like they can't bother taking in full context, dialogue, inferences, and scene intent to understand a single facet of the show, power.

I sound like a broken record, but it still bears repeating: The other discussions on things outside of power get drowned out by powerscaling debates, even though THERE'S SO MUCH MORE TO ENJOY. It's why I always love it when the series now goes out of its way to flip the bird to powerscaling fans, because it shows that they KNOW fans are having problems with this kind of mentality, but just don't care because they want to entertain us.

[TheMikado]

The shows entire theme is about power.
It's like having an anime themed around love and romance, but the relationships are ridiculous, all over the place, and don't make any sense.

Like it or not the Central theme of Dragonball especially since the Z era has be power. Not great character interactions or anything else. Those are elements. Not the main theme.

The main theme is fights with strong opponents.

I've said it before, but it needs saying again: If you people had curbed your powerscaling bloodlust, this thread wouldn't have been necessary. KaiserNeko put it best when he made that initial comment.

The powerscaling complaints consumed all other discussion to a distressing degree, and people finally snapped.

That's not the main theme, it never was. Since the introduction of Radditz the series has literally been all about power. We've gotten three different fictional means of measuring "power" three transformations, kaioken, and now God ki. They don't call them "strong skilled fighter" meters. Come on what you think the focus of the story line has been? It's literally themed all around power. That's the word. It's not skill, love, friendship, etc. the entire theme from Z onward is all about measuring relative power. Nothing else mattered. It never mattered that Frieza wasn't as strong as Cell or that Cell newly hatched wasn't as skills or experience a fighter as Frieza, all that mattered was the main characters power vs the antagonist. They aren't developing clever ways to ultimately defeat the enemy, they are ultimately overpowering them with something that's stronger than there battle power. The theme doesn't go any deeper than that. Sure there are ancillary things to like, but the core theme of the this show and everything in Z is power.

Fighting strong opponents is not a "theme" it's a motif in Dragonball Z through Super.

[Shuby]

This is the Tournament of Power, sure. But the Tenka'ichi Budokai was the greatest under the heavens... yet was neither under the heavens, nor all-encompassing of all places with relation to the heavens.

This is the kinda stuff that drives me bonkers. Folks get so pedantic about things that there's no conversation to be had. Minds are made up before even entering the discussion.

Why bother having a conversation with you if you don't actually want one?

If strength isn't that big of a deal, then why are character in this show, remind you, putting so much emphasis on power? What is the point then for Gohan and Piccolo trying to get stronger? Or Goku fighting eventually the strongest opponent? Goku needing Vegeta because of his strength?
What drives me bonkers is you time and time again defending this show or deliberately trying to put everything in a good light ignoring or not wanting to deal with the bad aspects of the show. If you lower your standards than it is alreadly done by the writers to somehow still enjoy most expect of the show, well feel free. If i didn't want to have a conversation i wouldn't post, now would i? Am i not stating the obvious?!

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

The shows entire theme is about power.
It's like having an anime themed around love and romance, but the relationships are ridiculous, all over the place, and don't make any sense.

Like it or not the Central theme of Dragonball especially since the Z era has be power. Not great character interactions or anything else. Those are elements. Not the main theme.

The main theme is fights with strong opponents.

I've said it before, but it needs saying again: If you people had curbed your powerscaling bloodlust, this thread wouldn't have been necessary. KaiserNeko put it best when he made that initial comment.

The powerscaling complaints consumed all other discussion to a distressing degree, and people finally snapped.

That's not the main theme, it never was. Since the introduction of Radditz the series has literally been all about power. We've gotten three different fictional means of measuring "power" three transformations, kaioken, and now God ki. They don't call them "strong skilled fighter" meters. Come on what you think the focus of the story line has been? It's literally themed all around power. That's the word. It's not skill, love, friendship, etc. the entire theme from Z onward is all about measuring relative power. Nothing else mattered. It never mattered that Frieza wasn't as strong as Cell or that Cell newly hatched wasn't as skills or experience a fighter as Frieza, all that mattered was the main characters power vs the antagonist. They aren't developing clever ways to ultimately defeat the enemy, they are ultimately overpowering them with something that's stronger than there battle power. The theme doesn't go any deeper than that. Sure there are ancillary things to like, but the core theme of the this show and everything in Z is power.

Fighting strong opponents is not a "theme" it's a motif in Dragonball Z through Super.

If that's the case, why should anyone care that the main theme is shifting once again? The main theme shifted from the original Dragon Ball to Dragon Ball Z, so why should we be complaining? That little transition in the past was, comparatively speaking, a much more significant change that still persists to this day, and is specifically being downplayed for the purposes of this latest arc.

People took that transition in stride, so why aren't we now?

[TheMikado]

Because it was released at two seperate products in anime form. There was Dragonball but Dragonball Z became the true international success because of its central theme.

The core problem is that Super literally started with POWER particularly in the form of Beerus being untouchable, the SSG form and God ki, and Universe destroying punches as it's starting point. We start the new series and they first thing they do in say power is everyrhing once again, make Goku and Vegetas Base forms 400-500x more powerful, stack SSJ 1,2,3 on top of it, throw in SSB and then stack KK x 10 on top of that. Then suddenly say oh we were just kidding, everyone is relevant and can compete now. I would love for everyone to be relevant realistically, like if they went back and had the humans learn kaioken and they were able to push it to like x100 because of human potential of something that would go along way to helping. But nothing creative short of 100 push ups, 100 sit-ups, 10k run training.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

The series up to Super didn't do a good job of laying the foundation for other characters to be relevant, so no matter what, people that overthink/overanalyze it won't be satisfied with this Tournament of Power setup.

I get the criticisms, I really do. I get that it doesn't make sense logically speaking.

I just can't understand why it has to be the crux of every discussion, why you guys have to let it bother you. We're working on very different mindsets, different approaches to how we take in what the anime has to offer. It's really how this debate always goes.

You guys throw out how it doesn't make sense, how the logic isn't there with regards to character strength progression and technique and that it's too much of a problem to enjoy. We throw out all the great ancillary stuff that often surpasses the fights themselves, and how all of this gets subsumed in the power debate.

So what now? We can't accept your answers, and you can't accept yours. We're really at an impasse.

[namekiansaiyan]

The problem I have with the power levels is that there is one rule for one character and another rule for another characters.

They should either all increase for this tournament or none at all. Toriyama shouldn't be choosing things ay random.

18 is the only one who has got nothing so far. We need to know about Gohan, Piccolo, Roshi and Tien.

Android 17's power up is way too big compared to Krillin and Buu.

Toriyama lacks imagination when it comes to power ups for all characters.

[VegettoEX]

Toriyama lacks imagination when it comes to power ups for all characters.

Yeah. You're right! He absolutely does. See: Magic water. Magic hands on head. Magic dances.

At least this time it's not "I dunno man, magic...?"

[Kanassa]

At least this time it's not "I dunno man, magic...?"

Didn't Roshi get some magic wee- I mean, Enchanted Plants?

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

At least this time it's not "I dunno man, magic...?"

Didn't Roshi get some magic wee- I mean, Enchanted Plants?

Apparently, those boost his vitality and allow him to live longer and healthier.

Just pop a few THOUSAND of those and he's good for the Tournament of Power

[TheMikado]

The series up to Super didn't do a good job of laying the foundation for other characters to be relevant, so no matter what, people that overthink/overanalyze it won't be satisfied with this Tournament of Power setup.

I get the criticisms, I really do. I get that it doesn't make sense logically speaking.

I just can't understand why it has to be the crux of every discussion, why you guys have to let it bother you. We're working on very different mindsets, different approaches to how we take in what the anime has to offer. It's really how this debate always goes.

You guys throw out how it doesn't make sense, how the logic isn't there with regards to character strength progression and technique and that it's too much of a problem to enjoy. We throw out all the great ancillary stuff that often surpasses the fights themselves, and how all of this gets subsumed in the power debate.

So what now? We can't accept your answers, and you can't accept yours. We're really at an impasse.

I've already said this in the other threads but you can't change the rules in the middle of the game, it's not good planning for writing. Different people are coming to this realization at different points. Every other week we literally have a new thread asking how strong Base Goku is from a newbie or rare poster. It's because people are trying to figure out what's going on, it's not making sense and making sense of a story for some people is part of the enjoyment. Some people can enjoy it without some in universe logic and others can't. And you are right the entire franchise is at an impasse. This is something that will be discussed for years. The more casual international market who isn't into subtitles is just getting Super. This is just getting started. If it's not the power levels it will be about Gokus character or Gohan not really doing anything. People, when expecting a sequel to an series expected more of the same, that's why they wanted a sequel. Can you blame them for not liking it if it isn't what they were hoping for.

Super will be a very interesting and polarizing entry into the franchise history.

[WittyUsername]

I've mentioned this before, but I suppose it bears repeating in light of all the heated arguments about episode 86; power consistency is a thing of the past. I understand that this can be jarring for many people, since the franchise has generally been all about linear power levels for quite some time, but it is what it is. Power consistency has more or less been thrown out the window ever since RoF.

By this point, the characters are simply as strong as the plot requires them to be. Power levels are no longer a valid measuring tool. The only real requirement by this point seems to be that no matter how strong Goku and friends become, they will still be weaker than Beerus, even if Goku should logically be much stronger than him by now. It's as simple as that.

[dbzfan7]

Actually I think the thing that bothers people probably more than the radical scaling, is the lack of any real good explanation and any real build up. Honestly every ludicrous thing people complain about, would be null and void if there was good explanation for it. Let's compare say Gohan and Freeza.

Gohan's hidden power was established day 1, so it's easier to buy into his gains and logical progression since the story has built up his rage boosts, hidden potential, etc. Now with Freeza, while you do have an explanation, it's harder to take in. It's never been built up as a thing before, and is suddenly thrown right at you. So whether you like the explanation or not and think it's fine, there's a lot of people who hate that kind of writing where it just randomly throws in a trait that was never a thing. One character had built up potential the story told you early on, and let it grow as a thing. Meanwhile the other character just randomly got it as an excuse to fight in the last movie. Gohan has a set up, build up, and pay off. Freeza has a half haphazardly thrown in set up, no build up, and really only a pay off.

To fix that, I'd have had Champa and Vados be the one's who trained and helped Freeza get so strong. The show has shown training with the gods leads to good things. We also get a little preview of Beerus vs Champa with their selected fighters doing the fighting. Except here, Freeza is out for revenge, while Champa just needs to keep Beerus occupied so he can go after the Super Dragon Balls. We can have a set up that makes sense, build it up as well as Champa for the U6 Tournament, and have the pay off ROF gave us. It's a win win.

So what I think makes people so angry about Super, is it just immediately jumps right into a pay off and doesn't at all do anything to really make it feel earned or special. It's basically goes "Here's something cool, love it." That's my take on why people get upset. The lack of a real set up and build. Only 1/3 of that appears to really matter to the new series.

[emperior]

Toriyama lacks imagination when it comes to power ups for all characters.

Yeah. You're right! He absolutely does. See: Magic water. Magic hands on head. Magic dances.

At least this time it's not "I dunno man, magic...?"

I wouldn't really say Toriyama lacked imagination for power-ups. Gravity training and ROSAT are absolutely genial in my opinion. I also like the fusion dance, and I'm not the only one seeing as it has become iconic in real life.
Sure, in three occasions (if I'm not forgetting something) characters got stronger by magic (magic water, Elder Guru and Elder Kai) then there is the Namekian fusion which happened twice (but it had some foreshadowing, especially Piccolo and Kami fusion) I would also say I don't consider any of those except for the magic water as "bullshit". They are cheap, but reasonable. Except for, I repeat, the magic water which was established to be nothing but normal water and then it turned out the true magic water existed... so yeah that was bullshit, though it's not like Goku got 10 times stronger with that and at the very least it was explained nobody actually ever survived drinking it and we saw Goku's struggle when he drank it.

Right now I must admit Super isn't really doing a good job at explaining power-ups, and it's also quite difficult to know where each character stands in terms of power. We also saw Goku and Vegeta get into the ROSAT for 3 years apparently for no reason (except for the anime only Kaio-Ken) and now it's likely Gohan will get very strong again in less than 40 hours (still crossing my fingers for him and Piccolo to enter the ROSAT)
I think fans are justified to complain about power levels, although I personally don't care much about them anymore and it's not like the serie has never had power inflation, though characters like Freezer never got surpassed by earthlings and base Saiyans (until Super) so it's only logical for many fans to complain about 17 seemingly surpassing Majin Buu (even Ultimate Gohan probably got surpassed by 17 at this point)
It's unfortunate we didn't get a line from Goku such as "I'm only using (instert percentage) of my power right now" in his battle against 17. Though I'm also fine with what we got, it seems Super is setting up a trend of never telling us exactly how strong each character is/has gotten. Which I'm fine with.

[Lord Beerus]

Toriyama lacks imagination when it comes to power ups for all characters.

Yeah. You're right! He absolutely does. See: Magic water. Magic hands on head. Magic dances.

At least this time it's not "I dunno man, magic...?"

I wouldn't really say Toriyama lacked imagination for power-ups. Gravity training and ROSAT are absolutely genial in my opinion. I also like the fusion dance, and I'm not the only one seeing as it has become iconic in real life.
Sure, in three occasions (if I'm not forgetting something) characters got stronger by magic (magic water, Elder Guru and Elder Kai) then there is the Namekian fusion which happened twice (but it had some foreshadowing, especially Piccolo and Kami fusion) I would also say I don't consider any of those except for the magic water as "bullshit". They are cheap, but reasonable. Except for, I repeat, the magic water which was established to be nothing but normal water and then it turned out the true magic water existed... so yeah that was bullshit, though it's not like Goku got 10 times stronger with that and at the very least it was explained nobody actually ever survived drinking it and we saw Goku's struggle when he drank it.

Right now I must admit Super isn't really doing a good job at explaining power-ups, and it's also quite difficult to know where each character stands in terms of power. We also saw Goku and Vegeta get into the ROSAT for 3 years apparently for no reason (except for the anime only Kaio-Ken) and now it's likely Gohan will get very strong again in less than 40 hours (still crossing my fingers for him and Piccolo to enter the ROSAT)
I think fans are justified to complain about power levels, although I personally don't care much about them anymore and it's not like the serie has never had power inflation, though characters like Freezer never got surpassed by earthlings and base Saiyans (until Super) so it's only logical for many fans to complain about 17 seemingly surpassing Majin Buu (even Ultimate Gohan probably got surpassed by 17 at this point)
It's unfortunate we didn't get a line from Goku such as "I'm only using (instert percentage) of my power right now" in his battle against 17. Though I'm also fine with what we got, it seems Super is setting up a trend of never telling us exactly how strong each character is/has gotten. Which I'm fine with.

Yeah, I'll agree that is very vague with how strong characters are and how they get that strong. But my guess is that they don't want to put a glass ceiling on any of the central cast. They want their true strength to remain ambiguous and to be secretive about their methods so that when a later major arc occurs, it'll be easier to fit them into the story. I believe they don't want to just blow their load right now and have the supporting characters go through all extreme and unorthodox training methods just to hit brick wall when the next, and even-more-powerful-than-the-last, protagonist(s) arrives in the next major arc and the plan is for another team effort.