Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[ZombieVito]

Literally nothing implies that Goku and Vegeta increased in power in the tournament outside of their new forms. Them pressuring Jiren was stated to be due to their lack of coordination throwing him off. Goku only got stronger through his usages of Ultra Instinct and Vegeta only did so through Blue Evolution. Vegito would finger flick any version of Goku and Vegeta in their Blue forms.

SSB Kaioken Goku and SSBE Vegeta are equal. If Vegeta beat Toppo but Goku lost to Kefla, then that would mean that Kefla>Toppo. The chain for powers are:

UI>UI Omen>SSB Kaioken/SSBE>SSB. There are no obscure nuances to this like SSB Goku from 123>110 UI Omen. This was never stated or hinted at by any character.

Yes. That nonsense of them getting dozens or hundreds of times stronger during the ToP needs to die off already.

The only reason Vegeta defeated Toppo is because he got a rage boost. Before that he pretty much was fodder to him.

[ruler9871]

There is no strong evidence for Goku & Vegeta only getting stronger with new forms at all.

[ruler9871]

Literally nothing implies that Goku and Vegeta increased in power in the tournament outside of their new forms. Them pressuring Jiren was stated to be due to their lack of coordination throwing him off. Goku only got stronger through his usages of Ultra Instinct and Vegeta only did so through Blue Evolution. Vegito would finger flick any version of Goku and Vegeta in their Blue forms.

SSB Kaioken Goku and SSBE Vegeta are equal. If Vegeta beat Toppo but Goku lost to Kefla, then that would mean that Kefla>Toppo. The chain for powers are:

UI>UI Omen>SSB Kaioken/SSBE>SSB. There are no obscure nuances to this like SSB Goku from 123>110 UI Omen. This was never stated or hinted at by any character.

Yes. That nonsense of them getting dozens or hundreds of times stronger during the ToP needs to die off already.

The only reason Vegeta defeated Toppo is because he got a rage boost. Before that he pretty much was fodder to him.

Literally every feat and statement from the ToP arc does suggest that Goku & Vegeta did get stronger besides gaining new forms. It is pure denialism (as well as the fallacy that transformations are tiers) to argue otherwise.

1. Jiren powered up against SSBKKx20 & SSBE Vegeta before they started throwing him off with bad teamwork. So that downplay doesn't work.

2. If SSKBBx20 Goku in ep.123 was still only as strong as he was in the hour special, he would have been flicked and glared away like fodder, as did throughout ep.109.

3. There's simply no way SSBKKx20 & SSBE Vegeta could have done as good as they did against Jiren (especially forcing him to use more power than he did against the 1st Omen) since ep.123 without gaining extra power. Dragonball simply never works that way, and "skill" is nowhere near as big of a factor in DB as so many fans like to believe.

4. GoD Toppo was hyped up as being Universe 7's 2nd strongest enemy. Meaning by default that he is stronger than SSJ2 Kefla (who is stronger than the 2nd Omen), which means SSBE Vegeta would by default also be stronger than her.

5. There's other feats to suggest them gaining power besides new forms, like normal SSB Vegeta making a Final Flash stronger or at least equal to the U7 Spirit Bomb (which itself was much stronger than SSBKKx20 Goku from ep.109).

6. Finally, if Goku didn't get any stronger outside of UI, there would be no way for each UI Omen to be stronger than the last (since transformations in DB a fixed multipliers, except for Ultimate Gohan).

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

Literally every feat and statement from the ToP arc does suggest that Goku & Vegeta did get stronger besides gaining new forms. It is pure denialism (as well as the fallacy that transformations are tiers) to argue otherwise.

Literally nothing suggests it. The only statements that exist for them getting stronger is in regards to new forms.

1. Jiren powered up against SSBKKx20 & SSBE Vegeta before they started throwing him off with bad teamwork. So that downplay doesn't work.

Jiren powered up against Goku because he almost got ringed out due to strategy, not because of some power increase that was never mentioned in the show.

2. If SSKBBx20 Goku in ep.123 was still only as strong as he was in the hour special, he would have been flicked and glared away like fodder, as did throughout ep.109.

SSB Goku also "traded blows" with Jiren in 109. He doesn't need to have gotten stronger to simply do the same thing he did last time. And nothing suggests he did. No mention in the story of a power increase, so there was none.

3. There's simply no way SSBKKx20 & SSBE Vegeta could have done as good as they did against Jiren (especially forcing him to use more power than he did against the 1st Omen) since ep.123 without gaining extra power. Dragonball simply never works that way, and "skill" is nowhere near as big of a factor in DB as so many fans like to believe.

Nothing says they did and they don't need to.

4. GoD Toppo was hyped up as being Universe 7's 2nd strongest enemy. Meaning by default that he is stronger than SSJ2 Kefla (who is stronger than the 2nd Omen), which means SSBE Vegeta would by default also be stronger than her.

Nothing states that Toppo was the 2nd strongest foe that U7 fought in he tournament.

Kefla>SSB Kaioken/SSBE>Toppo

5. There's other feats to suggest them gaining power besides new forms, like normal SSB Vegeta making a Final Flash stronger or at least equal to the U7 Spirit Bomb (which itself was much stronger than SSBKKx20 Goku from ep.109).

6. Finally, if Goku didn't get any stronger outside of UI, there would be no way for each UI Omen to be stronger than the last (since transformations in DB a fixed multipliers, except for Ultimate Gohan).

There's no reason why Vegeta making a supercharged Final Flash would warrant the boosts you're suggesting.

And nothing states that UI is a fixed multiplier. Goku tapped deeper and deeper into instinct until he reached the true Ulta Instinct.

[Miracles]

Even if we disregard the manga, we have seen Whis used UI with no changed to his appearance. So why would the automatic assumption be that Beerus goes through some physical change? He isn't a Saiyans, who do transform when they reached a new peak of power.

It's not really disputable since Whis trained Beerus and should know where Beerus' power lies. So him saying another god is stronger than Beerus is pretty much an official statement until stated otherwise. Also, if you want to be cheeky, only the manga claimed Jiren > Vermound, not the anime since you have this '’m not talking about the manga, only the anime'.

Here's the thing with 'it does seem like those instances when Whis and Beerus try to motivate the team'. Whis has never outright lied to motive the team. He has always been truthful in that regard. It's Beerus who has lied for motivation, first by telling Goku was going full power in Episode 13 and then the whole Monaka thing. Even if you want to say Whis also lied about Monaka, he only did it because Beerus ordered him to and he had no problem saying Beerus was a lair. Compared to his statement about 'mortal stronger than a God of Destruction', where Goku asked a frank question, so there was no reason for Whis to lie or stress the truth, especially when he repeat the same line in 110.

Overall, there is nothing to counter Whis' statement of mortal stronger than a God of Destruction > Beerus. You are using absent of evidence to say 'we don't know, since we haven't seen Beerus lose in combat', which doesn't matter if we never saw Beerus lose. His own teacher says, mortal stronger than a God of Destruction > Beerus.

Toyo only stated 'not sure about how Beerus compares to the others' in regards to Shin's statement about Vegito, not the other Gods of Destruction. That and the scene I'm referring to, Whis is talking about Omen about how it's harder to attack without thinking than dodged, and the looked right at Beerus with 'isn't that right', with Beerus only given an scoffed 'Why are you asking me?'. By Beerus' reaction, it's pretty clear the implication is that Beerus can dodged with UI, but cannot attack that well since he thinks before doing so since that's the hardest aspect of UI.

It was Beerus himself who shot Whis's rumor accusation down. You missed some context there.

I know exactly what Beerus said. The problem is, Beerus isn't really trustworthy compared to Whis, especially since Beerus has been caught lying. While Whis never lied unless he was following Beerus like Monaka.

Except we know Beerus isn't lying. It is a plot point in both anime and manga that he only lost in arm wrestling and never combat.

[PFM18]

2. If SSKBBx20 Goku in ep.123 was still only as strong as he was in the hour special, he would have been flicked and glared away like fodder, as did throughout ep.109.

You're just trying to arbitrarily quantify "did better" as though it actually means anything in any sort of objective sense.

There's simply no way SSBKKx20 & SSBE Vegeta could have done as good as they did against Jiren (especially forcing him to use more power than he did against the 1st Omen) since ep.123 without gaining extra power.

"There's no way it could happen" is not an argument. Especially when their performance was explained by being de-synchronized.

4. GoD Toppo was hyped up as being Universe 7's 2nd strongest enemy. Meaning by default that he is stronger than SSJ2 Kefla (who is stronger than the 2nd Omen), which means SSBE Vegeta would by default also be stronger than her.

This is also extremely arbitrary. "Oh he was hyped more" is not evidence. You can't possibly quantify this "hype level" either.

5. There's other feats to suggest them gaining power besides new forms, like normal SSB Vegeta making a Final Flash stronger or at least equal to the U7 Spirit Bomb (which itself was much stronger than SSBKKx20 Goku from ep.109).

That's called a ki amp. There is no reason to believe that it was representative of his baseline strength. It was simply a super-charged Final Flash that obviously output dramatically more power than he would have been able to otherwise.

6. Finally, if Goku didn't get any stronger outside of UI, there would be no way for each UI Omen to be stronger than the last (since transformations in DB a fixed multipliers, except for Ultimate Gohan).

There's no reason why it would be impossible for each consecutive Omen to provide a larger boost than the previous.

The only evidence of Goku and Vegeta getting stronger in the tournament is:

-Jiren felt it necessary to power up to use more power in 123 than he ever did in the tournament previously, despite Goku just being in SSB at the time.
-Jiren's shocked expression upon seeing Goku transform into SSB in 122. Clearly intending to depict Jiren's surprise at how much stronger Goku has grown.
-Vegeta went from all of his attacks being tanked by Jiren being unable to tank them during 122. The difference is obvious.

[ruler9871]

Snip

Literally every feat and statement from the ToP arc does suggest that Goku & Vegeta did get stronger besides gaining new forms. It is pure denialism (as well as the fallacy that transformations are tiers) to argue otherwise.

Literally nothing suggests it. The only statements that exist for them getting stronger is in regards to new forms.

1. Jiren powered up against SSBKKx20 & SSBE Vegeta before they started throwing him off with bad teamwork. So that downplay doesn't work.

Jiren powered up against Goku because he almost got ringed out due to strategy, not because of some power increase that was never mentioned in the show.

2. If SSKBBx20 Goku in ep.123 was still only as strong as he was in the hour special, he would have been flicked and glared away like fodder, as did throughout ep.109.

SSB Goku also "traded blows" with Jiren in 109. He doesn't need to have gotten stronger to simply do the same thing he did last time. And nothing suggests he did. No mention in the story of a power increase, so there was none.

3. There's simply no way SSBKKx20 & SSBE Vegeta could have done as good as they did against Jiren (especially forcing him to use more power than he did against the 1st Omen) since ep.123 without gaining extra power. Dragonball simply never works that way, and "skill" is nowhere near as big of a factor in DB as so many fans like to believe.

Nothing says they did and they don't need to.

4. GoD Toppo was hyped up as being Universe 7's 2nd strongest enemy. Meaning by default that he is stronger than SSJ2 Kefla (who is stronger than the 2nd Omen), which means SSBE Vegeta would by default also be stronger than her.

Nothing states that Toppo was the 2nd strongest foe that U7 fought in he tournament.

Kefla>SSB Kaioken/SSBE>Toppo

5. There's other feats to suggest them gaining power besides new forms, like normal SSB Vegeta making a Final Flash stronger or at least equal to the U7 Spirit Bomb (which itself was much stronger than SSBKKx20 Goku from ep.109).

6. Finally, if Goku didn't get any stronger outside of UI, there would be no way for each UI Omen to be stronger than the last (since transformations in DB a fixed multipliers, except for Ultimate Gohan).

There's no reason why Vegeta making a supercharged Final Flash would warrant the boosts you're suggesting.

And nothing states that UI is a fixed multiplier. Goku tapped deeper and deeper into instinct until he reached the true Ulta Instinct.

1. Jiren raised his power several times before almost getting rung out by Goku and after. He was shown and stated doing this even, you are in denial. Hell, Jiren unleashed his full power (non-limit breaking) at the end of 126 and SSBKK Goku, SSBE Vegeta & 17 all managed to up ok against this Jiren. This wouldn't be possible if they didn't get stronger outside of new forms.

2. Goku in 109 couldn't even land a single good hit on Jiren, he was not "trading" with Jiren in any real way. And no, there where frequent mentions from the cast (including Jiren himself) about Goku & Vegeta constantly getting stronger in scenes that didn't involve new forms.

3. Again, more denialism

4. The narrator and Vegeta stated this. There's no evidence for Kefla being stronger.

5. Final Flash doesn't multiply a person's power all that high. If it did then Cell saga Vegeta's Final Flash could have killed even Super Perfect Cell easily. So in order for normal SSB Vegeta to make a FF that powerful (to the point that it knocks Jiren to the ground, something the U7 Spirit Bomb couldn't do) he logically had to have gotten stronger than he was at the start of the ToP. Its how Dragonball works.

6. All transformations in DB are fixed multipliers (with Mystic Gohan being the only stated exception). It is pure headcanon to assume UI is any different.

The Omen form Goku used 3 times never changed, its Goku himself that changed. That's why each Omen was stronger than the last because himself was generally getting stronger.

https://youtu.be/5bPAUaYjV0Q

[Kenneth La Torre]

I believe that goku and vegeta did get overall stronger through the tournament, but i feel like people over-exaggerate how much. For ssbkkx20 goku to be stronger than 110 omen goku, he doesnt need to get dozens to hundreds of times more powerful. Omen goku from the special was still fodder to jiren.
123 goku could have potentially surpassed that power with a mere 10x boost in power.

Honestly, looking at it, their gains and multipliers for the new forms arent even that massive. Omen could just easily be around 10-20x stronger than ssbkkx20/ssbe, and UI be around 2-10x omen. Thats would make UI about 400-4,000x a ssb, a multiplier that isnt insane, but it shows why goku would be above a god of destruction.

The only multiplier i found was insane was fusion. Base Gogeta = > SSB Goku and Vegeta is just too much. The only way an opponent could even have a shot against a blue fusion is if they can kill ssb goku or vegeta by breathing on them.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

Literally every feat and statement from the ToP arc does suggest that Goku & Vegeta did get stronger besides gaining new forms. It is pure denialism (as well as the fallacy that transformations are tiers) to argue otherwise.

Literally nothing suggests it. The only statements that exist for them getting stronger is in regards to new forms.

1. Jiren powered up against SSBKKx20 & SSBE Vegeta before they started throwing him off with bad teamwork. So that downplay doesn't work.

Jiren powered up against Goku because he almost got ringed out due to strategy, not because of some power increase that was never mentioned in the show.

2. If SSKBBx20 Goku in ep.123 was still only as strong as he was in the hour special, he would have been flicked and glared away like fodder, as did throughout ep.109.

SSB Goku also "traded blows" with Jiren in 109. He doesn't need to have gotten stronger to simply do the same thing he did last time. And nothing suggests he did. No mention in the story of a power increase, so there was none.

3. There's simply no way SSBKKx20 & SSBE Vegeta could have done as good as they did against Jiren (especially forcing him to use more power than he did against the 1st Omen) since ep.123 without gaining extra power. Dragonball simply never works that way, and "skill" is nowhere near as big of a factor in DB as so many fans like to believe.

Nothing says they did and they don't need to.

4. GoD Toppo was hyped up as being Universe 7's 2nd strongest enemy. Meaning by default that he is stronger than SSJ2 Kefla (who is stronger than the 2nd Omen), which means SSBE Vegeta would by default also be stronger than her.

Nothing states that Toppo was the 2nd strongest foe that U7 fought in he tournament.

Kefla>SSB Kaioken/SSBE>Toppo

5. There's other feats to suggest them gaining power besides new forms, like normal SSB Vegeta making a Final Flash stronger or at least equal to the U7 Spirit Bomb (which itself was much stronger than SSBKKx20 Goku from ep.109).

6. Finally, if Goku didn't get any stronger outside of UI, there would be no way for each UI Omen to be stronger than the last (since transformations in DB a fixed multipliers, except for Ultimate Gohan).

There's no reason why Vegeta making a supercharged Final Flash would warrant the boosts you're suggesting.

And nothing states that UI is a fixed multiplier. Goku tapped deeper and deeper into instinct until he reached the true Ulta Instinct.

1. Jiren raised his power several times before almost getting rung out by Goku and after. He was shown and stated doing this even, you are in denial. Hell, Jiren unleashed his full power (non-limit breaking) at the end of 126 and SSBKK Goku, SSBE Vegeta & 17 all managed to up ok against this Jiren. This wouldn't be possible if they didn't get stronger outside of new forms.

2. Goku in 109 couldn't even land a single good hit on Jiren, he was not "trading" with Jiren in any real way. And no, there where frequent mentions from the cast (including Jiren himself) about Goku & Vegeta constantly getting stronger in scenes that didn't involve new forms.

3. Again, more denialism

4. The narrator and Vegeta stated this. There's no evidence for Kefla being stronger.

5. Final Flash doesn't multiply a person's power all that high. If it did then Cell saga Vegeta's Final Flash could have killed even Super Perfect Cell easily. So in order for normal SSB Vegeta to make a FF that powerful (to the point that it knocks Jiren to the ground, something the U7 Spirit Bomb couldn't do) he logically had to have gotten stronger than he was at the start of the ToP. Its how Dragonball works.

6. All transformations in DB are fixed multipliers (with Mystic Gohan being the only stated exception). It is pure headcanon to assume UI is any different.

The Omen form Goku used 3 times never changed, its Goku himself that changed. That's why each Omen was stronger than the last because himself was generally getting stronger.

https://youtu.be/5bPAUaYjV0Q

Jiren didn't raise his power at all before almost getting rung out. And any work that Goku and Vegeta put in was due to their uncoordinated teamwork as stated. Honestly you don't know what you're talking about. Jiren never got hit by the Spirit Bomb, so you can't say that it can't produce results like the Final Flash.

There's nothing to really refute. You can't prove why the things you say necessitate a power increase. You even ignore the story given explanations for why a character is keeping up and going with your own narrative.

Neither Vegeta or the narrator said that Toppo was the strongest ever faced in the TOP besides Jiren. So in the story, Kefla is stronger since she beat someone that Toppo would not be able to.

Nothing states that UI is a fixed multiplier. Again, you're making stuff up. Goku tapped deeper into instinct and got stronger in that form. Going deeper into instinct doesn't make his base stronger, it makes Ultra Instinct stronger.

[ruler9871]

Literally nothing suggests it. The only statements that exist for them getting stronger is in regards to new forms.


Jiren powered up against Goku because he almost got ringed out due to strategy, not because of some power increase that was never mentioned in the show.


SSB Goku also "traded blows" with Jiren in 109. He doesn't need to have gotten stronger to simply do the same thing he did last time. And nothing suggests he did. No mention in the story of a power increase, so there was none.


Nothing says they did and they don't need to.


Nothing states that Toppo was the 2nd strongest foe that U7 fought in he tournament.

Kefla>SSB Kaioken/SSBE>Toppo


There's no reason why Vegeta making a supercharged Final Flash would warrant the boosts you're suggesting.

And nothing states that UI is a fixed multiplier. Goku tapped deeper and deeper into instinct until he reached the true Ulta Instinct.

1. Jiren raised his power several times before almost getting rung out by Goku and after. He was shown and stated doing this even, you are in denial. Hell, Jiren unleashed his full power (non-limit breaking) at the end of 126 and SSBKK Goku, SSBE Vegeta & 17 all managed to up ok against this Jiren. This wouldn't be possible if they didn't get stronger outside of new forms.

2. Goku in 109 couldn't even land a single good hit on Jiren, he was not "trading" with Jiren in any real way. And no, there where frequent mentions from the cast (including Jiren himself) about Goku & Vegeta constantly getting stronger in scenes that didn't involve new forms.

3. Again, more denialism

4. The narrator and Vegeta stated this. There's no evidence for Kefla being stronger.

5. Final Flash doesn't multiply a person's power all that high. If it did then Cell saga Vegeta's Final Flash could have killed even Super Perfect Cell easily. So in order for normal SSB Vegeta to make a FF that powerful (to the point that it knocks Jiren to the ground, something the U7 Spirit Bomb couldn't do) he logically had to have gotten stronger than he was at the start of the ToP. Its how Dragonball works.

6. All transformations in DB are fixed multipliers (with Mystic Gohan being the only stated exception). It is pure headcanon to assume UI is any different.

The Omen form Goku used 3 times never changed, its Goku himself that changed. That's why each Omen was stronger than the last because himself was generally getting stronger.

https://youtu.be/5bPAUaYjV0Q

Jiren didn't raise his power at all before almost getting rung out. And any work that Goku and Vegeta put in was due to their uncoordinated teamwork as stated. Honestly you don't know what you're talking about. Jiren never got hit by the Spirit Bomb, so you can't say that it can't produce results like the Final Flash.

There's nothing to really refute. You can't prove why the things you say necessitate a power increase. You even ignore the story given explanations for why a character is keeping up and going with your own narrative.

Neither Vegeta or the narrator said that Toppo was the strongest ever faced in the TOP besides Jiren. So in the story, Kefla is stronger since she beat someone that Toppo would not be able to.

Nothing states that UI is a fixed multiplier. Again, you're making stuff up. Goku tapped deeper into instinct and got stronger in that form. Going deeper into instinct doesn't make his base stronger, it makes Ultra Instinct stronger.

Now you are just repeating the same debunked arguments over again.

1. Jiren was shown powering up in 122, then again early in 123 before Goku & Vegeta teamed up on him (debunked the bad teamwork argument), then again into his full power in 126 right after Vegeta eliminates Toppo: https://youtu.be/gkPfnR7pzxM

2. The fact that Jiren could casually deflect the U7 Spirit Bomb with just his eyes, while getting knocked down by the Final Flash even when blocking, obviously means that the FF was stronger. Its common sense.

3. There's nothing the story suggesting that GoD Toppo couldn't take on the 1st 2 Omens or Kefla. Especially since God Toppo's power was frequently compared to the 12 Hakaishin (himself being a trainee for one) while Kefla never gor any such comparisons.

4. What evidence do you have for UI not being a fixed multiplier when virtually every other transformation in the franchise is? When was it even stated to be different? Its pure headcanon to assume its different. Goku "Getting deeper into UI" merely means he's going to master it, not that the Omen form itself was getting stronger.

[Zamasu55]

The anime is a total mess, but one thing was clearly stated: Goku, at the start of the saga, is weaker then he was against Fused Zamasu. So, considering that he "trained" just for a couple of days, his ToP version, at least up until the special, is, at most, as strong as his F. Trunks arc self.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

1. Jiren raised his power several times before almost getting rung out by Goku and after. He was shown and stated doing this even, you are in denial. Hell, Jiren unleashed his full power (non-limit breaking) at the end of 126 and SSBKK Goku, SSBE Vegeta & 17 all managed to up ok against this Jiren. This wouldn't be possible if they didn't get stronger outside of new forms.

2. Goku in 109 couldn't even land a single good hit on Jiren, he was not "trading" with Jiren in any real way. And no, there where frequent mentions from the cast (including Jiren himself) about Goku & Vegeta constantly getting stronger in scenes that didn't involve new forms.

3. Again, more denialism

4. The narrator and Vegeta stated this. There's no evidence for Kefla being stronger.

5. Final Flash doesn't multiply a person's power all that high. If it did then Cell saga Vegeta's Final Flash could have killed even Super Perfect Cell easily. So in order for normal SSB Vegeta to make a FF that powerful (to the point that it knocks Jiren to the ground, something the U7 Spirit Bomb couldn't do) he logically had to have gotten stronger than he was at the start of the ToP. Its how Dragonball works.

6. All transformations in DB are fixed multipliers (with Mystic Gohan being the only stated exception). It is pure headcanon to assume UI is any different.

The Omen form Goku used 3 times never changed, its Goku himself that changed. That's why each Omen was stronger than the last because himself was generally getting stronger.

https://youtu.be/5bPAUaYjV0Q

Jiren didn't raise his power at all before almost getting rung out. And any work that Goku and Vegeta put in was due to their uncoordinated teamwork as stated. Honestly you don't know what you're talking about. Jiren never got hit by the Spirit Bomb, so you can't say that it can't produce results like the Final Flash.

There's nothing to really refute. You can't prove why the things you say necessitate a power increase. You even ignore the story given explanations for why a character is keeping up and going with your own narrative.

Neither Vegeta or the narrator said that Toppo was the strongest ever faced in the TOP besides Jiren. So in the story, Kefla is stronger since she beat someone that Toppo would not be able to.

Nothing states that UI is a fixed multiplier. Again, you're making stuff up. Goku tapped deeper into instinct and got stronger in that form. Going deeper into instinct doesn't make his base stronger, it makes Ultra Instinct stronger.

Now you are just repeating the same debunked arguments over again.

1. Jiren was shown powering up in 122, then again early in 123 before Goku & Vegeta teamed up on him (debunked the bad teamwork argument), then again into his full power in 126 right after Vegeta eliminates Toppo: https://youtu.be/gkPfnR7pzxM

2. The fact that Jiren could casually deflect the U7 Spirit Bomb with just his eyes, while getting knocked down by the Final Flash even when blocking, obviously means that the FF was stronger. Its common sense.

3. There's nothing the story suggesting that GoD Toppo couldn't take on the 1st 2 Omens or Kefla. Especially since God Toppo's power was frequently compared to the 12 Hakaishin (himself being a trainee for one) while Kefla never gor any such comparisons.

4. What evidence do you have for UI not being a fixed multiplier when virtually every other transformation in the franchise is? When was it even stated to be different? Its pure headcanon to assume its different. Goku "Getting deeper into UI" merely means he's going to master it, not that the Omen form itself was getting stronger.

Again no, he powered up due to almost getting rung out due to strategy and didn't power up again until after Goku and Vegeta teamed up in which they pressured him due to bad teamwork. He powered up to his 109/110 level after Vegeta pressured him and stayed there until Goku almost rung him out. There is no debunking on your side. The story presented a reason so it stands.

Jiren didn't get hit by the Spirit Bomb, so your argument is moot. That's all there is to it.

And no Toppo cannot take on UI Omen since he couldn't beat the equivalent of SSB Kaioken.

As Goku got deeper into instinct his aura was getting bigger and bigger until he reached true Ultra Instinct. You have no evidence that UI is some fixed multiplier at all. I don't need a counterargument because you have no argument to begin with.

[PFM18]

Snip

So no counter-argument then, huh?

[Miracles]

The anime is a total mess, but one thing was clearly stated: Goku, at the start of the saga, is weaker then he was against Fused Zamasu. So, considering that he "trained" just for a couple of days, his ToP version, at least up until the special, is, at most, as strong as his F. Trunks arc self.

Spoiler:

[ruler9871]

Snip

So no counter-argument then, huh?

Everything in my last post was aimed at both you and supersaiyangodgogeta

[ruler9871]

Jiren didn't raise his power at all before almost getting rung out. And any work that Goku and Vegeta put in was due to their uncoordinated teamwork as stated. Honestly you don't know what you're talking about. Jiren never got hit by the Spirit Bomb, so you can't say that it can't produce results like the Final Flash.

There's nothing to really refute. You can't prove why the things you say necessitate a power increase. You even ignore the story given explanations for why a character is keeping up and going with your own narrative.

Neither Vegeta or the narrator said that Toppo was the strongest ever faced in the TOP besides Jiren. So in the story, Kefla is stronger since she beat someone that Toppo would not be able to.

Nothing states that UI is a fixed multiplier. Again, you're making stuff up. Goku tapped deeper into instinct and got stronger in that form. Going deeper into instinct doesn't make his base stronger, it makes Ultra Instinct stronger.

Now you are just repeating the same debunked arguments over again.

1. Jiren was shown powering up in 122, then again early in 123 before Goku & Vegeta teamed up on him (debunked the bad teamwork argument), then again into his full power in 126 right after Vegeta eliminates Toppo: https://youtu.be/gkPfnR7pzxM

2. The fact that Jiren could casually deflect the U7 Spirit Bomb with just his eyes, while getting knocked down by the Final Flash even when blocking, obviously means that the FF was stronger. Its common sense.

3. There's nothing the story suggesting that GoD Toppo couldn't take on the 1st 2 Omens or Kefla. Especially since God Toppo's power was frequently compared to the 12 Hakaishin (himself being a trainee for one) while Kefla never gor any such comparisons.

4. What evidence do you have for UI not being a fixed multiplier when virtually every other transformation in the franchise is? When was it even stated to be different? Its pure headcanon to assume its different. Goku "Getting deeper into UI" merely means he's going to master it, not that the Omen form itself was getting stronger.

Again no, he powered up due to almost getting rung out due to strategy and didn't power up again until after Goku and Vegeta teamed up in which they pressured him due to bad teamwork. He powered up to his 109/110 level after Vegeta pressured him and stayed there until Goku almost rung him out. There is no debunking on your side. The story presented a reason so it stands.

Jiren didn't get hit by the Spirit Bomb, so your argument is moot. That's all there is to it.

And no Toppo cannot take on UI Omen since he couldn't beat the equivalent of SSB Kaioken.

As Goku got deeper into instinct his aura was getting bigger and bigger until he reached true Ultra Instinct. You have no evidence that UI is some fixed multiplier at all. I don't need a counterargument because you have no argument to begin with.

1. I literally just posted a video of Jiren powering up right after Toppo gets eliminated, yet you still deny Jiren ever powering up smh. You are being delusional.

2. Again you repeat the same falsehood. The fact that Jiren powered up at all against Goku & Vegeta compared to where he was in the hour special logically means he's using more of his strength than what he used against the first Omen. Belmod in one scene even flat out states that he hasn't seen Jiren use that much power in years:https://youtu.be/zYtWbs5DrbQ

None of this would be necessary ifGoku and Vegeta weren't any stronger than they were at the start at the ToP. Its simple logic.

And the "strategy" argument is nonsense since skill and strategy means nothing in DB when one character is way stronger than the other.

3. So what if the Spirit Bomb didnt hit Jiren. The simple fact that he could deflect it with just a causal glare means that he could tank it without any serious damage. At no point in DB have we ever seen characters casually deflect attacks that could seriously hurt them. So your argument doesn't work.

And about Toppo, again you make the fallacy of assuming transformations are tiers and that SSBE from ep.123 onward is only equal to SSBKKx20 from the hour special (despite already being given multiple counter-evidence against your claim).

4. Claims require evidence, and you failed to provide any evidence for your claims about UI. If literally every other transformation in DB is a fixed multiplier, there's no reason to assume UI is any different useless its explicitly stated so (like Ultimate Gohan).

[Kenneth La Torre]

I have a feeling that broly is going to be getting the beerus treatment from toriyama.
In fact, i dont want to see a jiren vs broly fight, i would rather watch broly vs beerus instead.

[PFM18]

So no counter-argument then, huh?

Everything in my last post was aimed at both you and supersaiyangodgogeta

All of your responses specifically addressed him. If you lumped me in there then it didnt matter because you didnt address my arguments.

[HeroR]

It was Beerus himself who shot Whis's rumor accusation down. You missed some context there.

I know exactly what Beerus said. The problem is, Beerus isn't really trustworthy compared to Whis, especially since Beerus has been caught lying. While Whis never lied unless he was following Beerus like Monaka.

Except we know Beerus isn't lying. It is a plot point in both anime and manga that he only lost in arm wrestling and never combat.

The context between the manga and anime about Beerus loving an arm wrestling match are not even the same. In the anime, one was used to say that a God of Destruction was stronger than Beerus by Whis, and Beerus refuted it with the arm wrestling. In the manga, U4 God of Destruction was the one who brought up winning against Beerus, while Beerus refute it was just arm wrestling. The context in the manga has nothing to do with Whis' statement since in the anime that god Beerus lost to is heavily implied to be Belmond, not U4 God of Destruction.

[Miracles]

I know exactly what Beerus said. The problem is, Beerus isn't really trustworthy compared to Whis, especially since Beerus has been caught lying. While Whis never lied unless he was following Beerus like Monaka.

Except we know Beerus isn't lying. It is a plot point in both anime and manga that he only lost in arm wrestling and never combat.

The context between the manga and anime about Beerus loving an arm wrestling match are not even the same. In the anime, one was used to say that a God of Destruction was stronger than Beerus by Whis, and Beerus refuted it with the arm wrestling. In the manga, U4 God of Destruction was the one who brought up winning against Beerus, while Beerus refute it was just arm wrestling. The context in the manga has nothing to do with Whis' statement since in the anime that god Beerus lost to is heavily implied to be Belmond, not U4 God of Destruction.

No, the point of Beerus bringing up the fact that he only lost in arm wrestling and not combat was to refute Whis and Quitela about anyone being stronger than him. It's the same plot in both anime/manga, saying Beerus never lost to anyone in a fight, showing inferiority.