Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Grand Marshal 1]

Where would you put Vegeta's Final Flash from EP 122? Seems to fit in this ranking

So, given my original rankings, with Merged Zamasu being above GoD Toppo, I would place Vegeta in this level:

Universal Spirit Bomb≈Blue KK ×20 Goku (ep. 110)=Blue KK Goku (VS Kefla)=SSJ Kefla<Blue Vegeta (FF)<1st Omen≈Supressed Jiren

Given how he commented on Jiren's strength being greater against 1st Omen Goku. At this point, without taking into account Vegeta's power ups in Blue Evolution, he has reached his peak power.

Considering that Vegeta's FF didn't hurt Supressed Jiren who was on the same level as UI Omen Goku (1st appearance), it makes sense that he is below. But considering all the power up that Vegeta received before firing the FF and the reaction of Jiren and his teammates, it's plausible that it's above Goku's Spirit Bomb.

But I put GoD Toppo above Corrupted Zamasu

Well said. But would you place Blue Vegito above GoD Toppo? If so, would he be also above Blue Evolution Vegeta, or below?

SSJ2 Kefla<2nd Omen<GoD Toppo<Merged Zamasu (peak)<FP SSJ Broly<Vegito Blue (FT arc)<=Blue Evolution Vegeta

How would you make the rankings here? SSJ2 Kefla is directly above Supressed Jiren and 1st Omen Goku. Above Vegeta's level stands 3rd Omen and 100%/Full Power Jiren.

Would it be something like this:

SSJ2 Kefla<2nd Omen<Merged Zamasu (peak)< GoD Toppo<FP SSJ Broly<Vegito Blue (FT arc)<=Blue Evolution Vegeta

Or would Vegito be above Vegeta? As for Broly, I think that nor Toppo, neither Zamasu should be above him. I somewhat place Beerus at that level, with his peak being potentially 3rd Omen level, but not above GoD tier.

[TheSaiyanGod]

So, given my original rankings, with Merged Zamasu being above GoD Toppo, I would place Vegeta in this level:

Universal Spirit Bomb≈Blue KK ×20 Goku (ep. 110)=Blue KK Goku (VS Kefla)=SSJ Kefla<Blue Vegeta (FF)<1st Omen≈Supressed Jiren

Given how he commented on Jiren's strength being greater against 1st Omen Goku. At this point, without taking into account Vegeta's power ups in Blue Evolution, he has reached his peak power.

Considering that Vegeta's FF didn't hurt Supressed Jiren who was on the same level as UI Omen Goku (1st appearance), it makes sense that he is below. But considering all the power up that Vegeta received before firing the FF and the reaction of Jiren and his teammates, it's plausible that it's above Goku's Spirit Bomb.

But I put GoD Toppo above Corrupted Zamasu

Well said. But would you place Blue Vegito above GoD Toppo? If so, would he be also above Blue Evolution Vegeta, or below?

SSJ2 Kefla<2nd Omen<GoD Toppo<Merged Zamasu (peak)<FP SSJ Broly<Vegito Blue (FT arc)<=Blue Evolution Vegeta

How would you make the rankings here? SSJ2 Kefla is directly above Supressed Jiren and 1st Omen Goku. Above Vegeta's level stands 3rd Omen and 100%/Full Power Jiren.

Would it be something like this:

SSJ2 Kefla<2nd Omen<Merged Zamasu (peak)< GoD Toppo<FP SSJ Broly<Vegito Blue (FT arc)<=Blue Evolution Vegeta

Or would Vegito be above Vegeta? As for Broly, I think that nor Toppo, neither Zamasu should be above him. I somewhat place Beerus at that level, with his peak being potentially 3rd Omen level, but not above GoD tier.

I would put GoD Toppo and SSBE Vegeta over SSB Vegetto (Future Trunks arc) and Merged Zamasu, because power levels have dramatically increased in ToP. It would be something like this

Merged Zamasu < SSB Vegetto (FT arc) < Supressed Jiren = 1st UI Omen < Kefla SSJ2 < 2st UI Omen < SSJ Broly < GoD Toppo < SSBE Vegeta < 3st UI Omen < Beerus < FP Jiren < LB Jiren < MUI Goku

Vegeta said that Supressed Jiren has the strongest Ki that he ever felt

But a current SSB Gogeta / SSB Vegetto would definitely be at MUI Goku level or higher

And I don't see SSJ Broly as someone superior to GoD Toppo and SSBE Vegeta (both probably more than 20 x stronger than SSB). GoD Toppo was even winning against initial SSBE Vegeta (before the power up)

As I said, the point of SSJ transformation is to increase power over the base form. So Broly could never really be 50x stronger than Ikari, this is an argument used because some people think that Ikari and base is the same thing.

...

[...] based on the level of power up that each transformation gives, the SSJ would still be considerably stronger than Ikari Broly, even if his base wasn't as strong.

...

I'm talking a lot about multipliers, but honestly I don't even like using them, because it seems that even Toriyama himself doesn't really think about it (he even said he felt that SSJ was only 10x stronger than base, which doesn't make sense). But a lot of people use it, it's official and the whole 50x argument is based on that, so I eventually use it (if those numbers didn't exist, such a big difference between SSJ Broly and Blue would not have been imagined).

I think official multipliers don’t match well with Broli. His first stage is weaker than SS Vegeta and he already had to tap into his Great Ape powers to keep up. If his completed 2nd stage is only 10-fold boosted, that would mean SSBlue can be only 10-fold boosted in relation to Super Saiyan, giving little room for SSGod to be more powerful than SS2 and SS3. Besides, Gogeta would be about as strong as Broli’s first stage and also weaker than SS Vegeta, which doesn’t make sense, if Kafla and Vegetto are stronger than SSGod.

Oozaru's power considerably increased Broly's strength, but for that to be enough to rival SSJ or SSG Vegeta, his base form also had to evolve to the same extent. He was boosted by Oozaru, but his base also had to progress harder to face Vegeta. That way you can fit these multipliers and try to explain why Broly got so strong

[Zamasu55]

Another reminder that the ultra-suppressed Jiren from EP122 got a "strongest ki I've ever felt" statement from Vegeta who had seen Beerus and Champa beat each other into bloody messes at full capacity.

Oh Toei.

And this Jiren is weaker than the one who fought Goku 10 episodes before.

[ZombieVito]

I made this scale for thr ToP top dogs.

Universal Spirit Bomb≈Blue KK ×20 Goku (ep. 110)=Blue KK Goku (VS Kefla)=SSJ Kefla<1st Omen≈Supressed Jiren<SSJ2 Kefla<2nd Omen<GoD Toppo<Merged Zamasu (peak)<FP SSJ Broly<Vegito Blue (FT arc)<=Blue Evolution Vegeta<3rd Omen=Full Power/100% Jiren<limit Break/Super Full Power Jiren<MUI (Rage Boost)≈Gogeta Blue (Broly arc)

According to you, Vegito should be below Toppo? I place Merged Zamasu above him, because Heroes did a good job with scaling Zamasu and these ToP fighters. As for FP SSJ Broly, I think that he should be above Kefla but below 3rd Omen. Enough to challenge a GoD. Possibly defeat one.

And if Vegito is a 7 to Gogeta's 10, then placing him nearly as an equal to Blue Evolution Vegeta, makes sense. Unless if the order is like:

Merged Zamasu<Blue Vegito (FT arc)<GoD Toppo<Blue Evolution Vegeta

This fricks up a little with what we got from Heroes tho. I know, it isn't Canon, but you understand at which fights I am referring to.

This is where we disagree. I don't think Goku or Vegeta got any stronger in their regular forms. Broly was also stated to be on par with Beerus so he can't be that low.

This is my scale currently.

SSB Gogeta
Enraged UI Goku
LB Jiren
UI Goku
FP Jiren
Beerus|Broly
3rd Omen Goku
Rest of GoD's
Suppressed Jiren
SSB Vegetto
Big Corrupted Zamasu
Enraged SSBE Vegeta
2nd Omen Goku
GoD Toppo
SS2 Kefla
Corrupted Zamasu
1st Omen Goku
SS Kefla
.
.
.
.
.
KKx20 SSB Goku|SSBE Vegeta

[SupremeKai25]

How would you guys rank Future Zamasu compared to the U6's Saiyans from the ToP arc?

[Grand Marshal 1]

Considering that Vegeta's FF didn't hurt Supressed Jiren who was on the same level as UI Omen Goku (1st appearance), it makes sense that he is below. But considering all the power up that Vegeta received before firing the FF and the reaction of Jiren and his teammates, it's plausible that it's above Goku's Spirit Bomb.

But I put GoD Toppo above Corrupted Zamasu

Well said. But would you place Blue Vegito above GoD Toppo? If so, would he be also above Blue Evolution Vegeta, or below?

SSJ2 Kefla<2nd Omen<GoD Toppo<Merged Zamasu (peak)<FP SSJ Broly<Vegito Blue (FT arc)<=Blue Evolution Vegeta

How would you make the rankings here? SSJ2 Kefla is directly above Supressed Jiren and 1st Omen Goku. Above Vegeta's level stands 3rd Omen and 100%/Full Power Jiren.

Would it be something like this:

SSJ2 Kefla<2nd Omen<Merged Zamasu (peak)< GoD Toppo<FP SSJ Broly<Vegito Blue (FT arc)<=Blue Evolution Vegeta

Or would Vegito be above Vegeta? As for Broly, I think that nor Toppo, neither Zamasu should be above him. I somewhat place Beerus at that level, with his peak being potentially 3rd Omen level, but not above GoD tier.

I would put GoD Toppo and SSBE Vegeta over SSB Vegetto (Future Trunks arc) and Merged Zamasu, because power levels have dramatically increased in ToP. It would be something like this

Merged Zamasu < SSB Vegetto (FT arc) < Supressed Jiren = 1st UI Omen < Kefla SSJ2 < 2st UI Omen < SSJ Broly < GoD Toppo < SSBE Vegeta < 3st UI Omen < Beerus < FP Jiren < LB Jiren < MUI Goku

Vegeta said that Supressed Jiren has the strongest Ki that he ever felt

But a current SSB Gogeta / SSB Vegetto would definitely be at MUI Goku level or higher

And I don't see SSJ Broly as someone superior to GoD Toppo and SSBE Vegeta (both probably more than 20 x stronger than SSB). GoD Toppo was even winning against initial SSBE Vegeta (before the power up)

I see. Indeed. I kinda forgot my own thoughts on FP SSJ Broly. I place him in a KK ×10 Blue Goku level, a Goku of the movie, who should be on par with the Goku of post-ToP. And Vegeta lasted to very end, thus his Blue Evolution should still be 2 or 3 times superior. So Broly falls below him and Toppo.

As for Vegito and Merged Zamasu, I might place them below 1st Omen, but I can't be fully sure. It is just that in my head, they couldn't power up individually and surpass the fusions by that much.

Now that I think of it, Merged Zamasu in Halo form could take on 2 Blues with ease. This is the end of the FT arc so Goku and Vegeta couldn't be stronger at this point. Lowball Merged Zamasu=4 Blues.

Then in corrupted form, he was weakened and didn't really react to Blue KK Goku's attacks, forcing them into fusion. So would he be twice as strong (lowball)? Still a KK×10 Blue Goku could probably be even with him. Given how I doubt that Goku could use the stable variant of KK×10, let alone use a ×20, the only solution would be Fusion.

Things were quite even and then Merged Zamasu also got the giantification boost. Now that could be either like Grade 2 or 3 SSJ power ups, due to Black being a Saiyan, or just an ability like that of Namekians or Garlic Junior, with all being a small boost. A ×3 would be enough I think. It could be a ×10 like Grade 3, but that's too much and reminds of the Great Ape.

So this Merged Zamasu should be on par with a Blue KK×20 Goku from the ToP ep 110, or with the Universal Spirit Bomb, but given how he was defeated by one, he is probably equal to the former.

Vegito is quite special though. His destructive power wasn't showcased clearly against an immortal individual, thus we can't jump in conclusions. Equal to Merged Zamasu, perhaps? Of course stronger. Yeah. I just changed my headcanon with Merged Zamasu and Vegito.

Final verdict:

Universal Spirit Bomb≈Blue KK ×20 Goku (ep. 110)=Blue KK Goku (VS Kefla)=SSJ Kefla<Blue Vegeta (FF)≈Merged Zamasu (peak)<Vegito Blue (FT arc)<1st Omen≈Supressed Jiren

Even though there was some progress with Vegeta and Goku, I still placed them above Goku's "peak" from the early ToP and Vegeta's all mighty attack, before Blue Evolution appeared. Still, the gap was closed.

[Grand Marshal 1]

How would you guys rank Future Zamasu compared to the U6's Saiyans from the ToP arc?

This is a difficult one. I haven't decided on if Future Zamasu is Blue level or a Super Saiyan 2-3 perhaps God level. Remember all these debates made here? Oof.

For me, I would say that Future Zamasu should perform well against Super Saiyan 2 Cabba and Caulifla, perhaps keep back C-type Kale (or controlled Kale), but would be pummeled by Berserk Kale and Super Saiyan 2 Kale would be dominating the fight.

[omegacwa]

I thought it was established that Zamasu (not merged) was around SSJ2 in strength.

[Grand Marshal 1]

I thought it was established that Zamasu (not merged) was around SSJ2 in strength.

That makes things easier then.

[Hugo Boss]

Oozaru's power considerably increased Broly's strength, but for that to be enough to rival SSJ or SSG Vegeta, his base form also had to evolve to the same extent. He was boosted by Oozaru, but his base also had to progress harder to face Vegeta. That way you can fit these multipliers and try to explain why Broly got so strong

That gets back to what I was saying. If Broli's normal form becomes able to rival SS Vegeta and it's 10-fold boosted when enterring the next level, that means SSBlue only boosts Super Saiyan by 10-fold as well. Unless you are suggesting something else.

Anyway, for your argument to work, it would require Super Saiyan boosting Gogeta less than it boosts Broli or Broli's normal form to be at least SSGod level.

[Miracles]

We know the high tier characters from the TOP are god level cause the main antagonist was stated to be that level.
No such pinnacle was stated for FT Vegetto and Merged Zamas.

You didn't read the last thing I said right?

Since Gogeta already surpassed Beerus then Vegetto can't be behind by that much. There's also Shin's statement in the manga.

Current Gogeta and Vegetto are god tier but not FT Trunk's Vegetto/Gogeta. BTW, I wouldn't say the fusions of Goku and Vegeta passed Beerus yet. That's what many were saying about Vegetto in FT trunks arc and we now know that wasn't the case.

[SupremeKai25]

IIRC Super Saiyan 2 Caulifla and Super Saiyan Kale were not able to defeat Super Saiyan 2 Goku despite teaming up, so I think Future Zamasu could defeat them. I do agree that Berserk Kale would stomp Zamasu since she was wrecking Super Saiyan Blue Goku if I am not mistaken.

[ZombieVito]

IIRC Super Saiyan 2 Caulifla and Super Saiyan Kale were not able to defeat Super Saiyan 2 Goku despite teaming up, so I think Future Zamasu could defeat them. I do agree that Berserk Kale would stomp Zamasu since she was wrecking Super Saiyan Blue Goku if I am not mistaken.

That SS2 Goku is stronger than the one Zamasu fought though.

I don't think he would defeat them together, much less if Berserk Kale is there since she's between SSG and SS2 Goku during the ToP.

[Koitsukai]

Do we have consensus, or something similar to that, regarding just how much of a boost SSGod gives? in the x1000s, in the x10.000s? millions?

BoG made it seem like is quite a large boost, Broly closing the gap between SS2-3 and SSgod would need how much? typical tenfold ohzaru boost doesn't seem to be enough, if Z Base Vegito were to be as strong as SS3 Goku and just 10x away from God(we know he was much stronger than that), Super Vegito would be 40x times stronger than SSGod, and even SS3 Vegito was suposse to be weaker than SSGod or equal, I chose to believe weaker. SSGod at least has to be 400 times stronger than SS3 Goku, so a 10x boost for Ikari Broly might not work.

Could it be that Broly, being the freak of nature he is, gets a much larger boost from his Ikari form? after all that green ki is not his regular ki or anyone's regular ki for that matter, and the ohzaru transformation also is something canonly unique. I mean, I don't see how it could work otherwise. I know SSGod was nerfed here and there, but never to the point that SS3+Kaioken x10(bare with me here) would get the job done.

[ankokudaishogun]

Do we have consensus, or something similar to that, regarding just how much of a boost SSGod gives? in the x1000s, in the x10.000s? millions?

Hard to say.
And Blue is NOT stacking a x50 multiplier on top of that: the difference is way minor, else it would make the God<->Blue switch meaningless as in DB speed rises with powerlevel unless otherwise specified.
It would be the same as switching Base<->SS.

Also: God wasn't enough to defeat Beerus. Hell, it never even came close.
It was enough to entertain him, but it took a more experienced Goku to stack Kaioken x10 on Blue(or for Vegeta to use Complete Blue) to actually get a real reaction out of him.

[TheSaiyanGod]

Final verdict:

Universal Spirit Bomb≈Blue KK ×20 Goku (ep. 110)=Blue KK Goku (VS Kefla)=SSJ Kefla<Blue Vegeta (FF)≈Merged Zamasu (peak)<Vegito Blue (FT arc)<1st Omen≈Supressed Jiren

Even though there was some progress with Vegeta and Goku, I still placed them above Goku's "peak" from the early ToP and Vegeta's all mighty attack, before Blue Evolution appeared. Still, the gap was closed.

Yeah, I think it makes sense what you said. Vegetto was definitely stronger than FP Zamasu, and Zamasu himself at his peak must have had a boost of 10x or more (compared to the initial MZ), probably above SSB KK x20 Goku (EP 110).

But how do you see Goku / Vegeta at the end of the arc compared to the start of the tournament? SSB KK x20 was destroyed by Jiren with a glare on EP 110, but on EP 123 only with SSB he managed to hold his own against Jiren, who according to Vermouth, was using a power he had not seen for a long time (this is, bigger than against UI Goku). And SSB Vegeta, who in EP 122 received considerable power up due to a pride boost and used a potentially stronger FF than Spirit Bomb + SSB KK x20

Oozaru's power considerably increased Broly's strength, but for that to be enough to rival SSJ or SSG Vegeta, his base form also had to evolve to the same extent. He was boosted by Oozaru, but his base also had to progress harder to face Vegeta. That way you can fit these multipliers and try to explain why Broly got so strong

That gets back to what I was saying. If Broli's normal form becomes able to rival SS Vegeta and it's 10-fold boosted when enterring the next level, that means SSBlue only boosts Super Saiyan by 10-fold as well. Unless you are suggesting something else.

Anyway, for your argument to work, it would require Super Saiyan boosting Gogeta less than it boosts Broli or Broli's normal form to be at least SSGod level.

Well, then disregarding all the multipliers, just for curiosity, how much do you think is the difference between SSJ Broly and SSB?

[Alruneia]

Do we have consensus, or something similar to that, regarding just how much of a boost SSGod gives? in the x1000s, in the x10.000s? millions?

In the Battle of Gods arc, SSG Goku is at least supposedly better than Super Vegito. Whether it's SS1, SS2 or SS3 he was thinking about isn't completely clear, but I'm assuming it was SS1 since that's all Super Vegito had used at that point. So what the multiplier would be depends on what the "fusion multiplier" is, and there really... isn't one? It depends on how you want to scale base form Vegito against Goku on his own.
Let's take, just as an example, Base Vegito = SS3 Goku. This isn't completely outlandish but may be a bit high. In that case, we have a "fusion multiplier" (not actually a multiplier, but we'll use this number later) of 400. Then, we add on Super Vegito, so that's x50. Total multiplier now is 400x50 = 20,000. Super Saiyan God's multiplier must be higher than this in order for Goku to perform better than Super Vegito. If it was a hypothetical SS3 Vegito instead of just "regular" Super Vegito, then we add in that x8 and SSG's multiplier becomes larger than x160,000.
In short, it all comes down to these three questions, none of which are fully agreed upon:
1. How strong is Vegito in relation to Goku at the relevant time?
2. Which form of Vegito was Goku referring to?
3. Was Goku's assessment of SSG > Vegito accurate?
There's a very wide margin here, but I believe you'll find the "correct" multiplier somewhere between x5,000 and x500,000. I invite other users to narrow this down.

[TheSaiyanGod]

Do we have consensus, or something similar to that, regarding just how much of a boost SSGod gives? in the x1000s, in the x10.000s? millions?

Hard to say.
And Blue is NOT stacking a x50 multiplier on top of that: the difference is way minor, else it would make the God<->Blue switch meaningless as in DB speed rises with powerlevel unless otherwise specified.
It would be the same as switching Base<->SS.

Also: God wasn't enough to defeat Beerus. Hell, it never even came close.
It was enough to entertain him, but it took a more experienced Goku to stack Kaioken x10 on Blue(or for Vegeta to use Complete Blue) to actually get a real reaction out of him.

The difference between God and Blue is definitely quite considerable.

Jiren needed 1 finger to stop SSG Goku's attacks, while SSB Goku was able to push Jiren through several mountains and exchange punches with him.

Using another example, SSG Goku was losing against Kefla base. She turned into SSJ Berserker (apparently an SSJ3-level power up) and made that difference dozens of times bigger (maybe hundreds). And yet, using SSB, Goku was able to close the power gap between him and Kefla, even at a disadvantage (and he was still tired of fighting Jiren) . This kind of implies a much larger than expected difference between God and Blue (hundreds of times), although I still find 50x too much

[Koitsukai]

Do we have consensus, or something similar to that, regarding just how much of a boost SSGod gives? in the x1000s, in the x10.000s? millions?

In the Battle of Gods arc, SSG Goku is at least supposedly better than Super Vegito. Whether it's SS1, SS2 or SS3 he was thinking about isn't completely clear, but I'm assuming it was SS1 since that's all Super Vegito had used at that point. So what the multiplier would be depends on what the "fusion multiplier" is, and there really... isn't one? It depends on how you want to scale base form Vegito against Goku on his own.
Let's take, just as an example, Base Vegito = SS3 Goku. This isn't completely outlandish but may be a bit high. In that case, we have a "fusion multiplier" (not actually a multiplier, but we'll use this number later) of 400. Then, we add on Super Vegito, so that's x50. Total multiplier now is 400x50 = 20,000. Super Saiyan God's multiplier must be higher than this in order for Goku to perform better than Super Vegito. If it was a hypothetical SS3 Vegito instead of just "regular" Super Vegito, then we add in that x8 and SSG's multiplier becomes larger than x160,000.
In short, it all comes down to these three questions, none of which are fully agreed upon:
1. How strong is Vegito in relation to Goku at the relevant time?
2. Which form of Vegito was Goku referring to?
3. Was Goku's assessment of SSG > Vegito accurate?
There's a very wide margin here, but I believe you'll find the "correct" multiplier somewhere between x5,000 and x500,000. I invite other users to narrow this down.

I see. I always felt Goku was referring to at least SS2 Vegito (SS3 as a transformation is not that reliable so maybe SS3 Vegito would be sort of a drag and SS2 might be the most balanced form to go to when considering the fusion option) but all we ever knew was Super Vegito, that's true. And it could be the best way to go, in order to lowball it a little, when other characters manage to put up a fight or to not be stomped against SSGod.
There is this fan theory that says a fusion's base equals the strongest form of the strongest of the fusees, but in the anime Base Vegito is much stronger than SS3 Goku, maybe that works in the manga where Super Vegito stepped up immediately, and in Super, Base Gogeta seems to be around SSBlue Goku/Vegeta.

So, no matter exactly how much the boost is, then Ikari Broly must've gotten a boost of at least 5 digits to overcome that difference. A 10x boost just doesn't work.

3. I'll take his word to heart, solely because it serves to hype SSGod and I believe it was intented at the time.

[Hugo Boss]

Well, then disregarding all the multipliers, just for curiosity, how much do you think is the difference between SSJ Broly and SSB?

I think it’s the same difference between Super Gogeta and SSBlue, which is unknown.