Discussion, generally of an in-universe nature, regarding any aspect of the franchise (including movies, spin-offs, etc.) such as: techniques, character relationships, internal back-history, its universe, and more.
sunsetshimmer wrote:
Still, Beerus was forced to use some power and it was obviously more than just 1%.
Gohan trained for few hours. It was clearly stated he got his old power back. Piccolo wanted to see the same power he used on Buu and he got that. He isn't that much stronger. Don't try to tell me he got like 500 times stronger in matter of few days just because he trained with Piccolo. He barely could turn SSJ year before that.
Even Future Trunks said that Cell saga Gohan was stronger than him.
And everything still doesn't change a fact that Goku is scared of Earth's core and can't survive such heat.
"Goku was holding back" is the common excuse for DBS shitty writing. Especially when you can clearly see him struggle and iirc Tien was in danger.
The fact is, Goku and Vegeta in Super are weak without their god forms.
Also, explain to me, why was it said that Kibitokai can't heal someone as powerful as SSJ4 Goku, yet unexperienced, unfused and mortal Future Trunks could heal SSJ Blue Goku? He used almost all of his power, but he did it. Future Zamasu also easily healed SSJ Rose Goku Black. But Kibitokai couldn't.
And remember, healing and just giving someone your power isn't the same thing.
Just because Future Trunks might be stronger than Kibitokai doesn't mean his healing powers are stronger as well.
Actually beerus used way less than 1% because goku absorbed the power of god, went blue and still coudn't touch beerus
Piccolo said gohan can get way stronger in episode 88, we were shown that in episode 90. Goku in a span of 30 minutes surpassed all the destroyers so gohan with 24 hours can do a lot.
Future trunks said he couldn't sense the brimming power from gohan but that makes sense since gohan was coming from work while trunks flashed back to ssj2 gohan. Even base goku can get scratched by bullets in super cause he lets his guard down so suppression is a thing.
Goku does hold back, its shit writing and i agree but he clearly holds back
Also I'm talking anime trunks not manga trunks, in the manga even goku without his god forms is fodder to gt characters imo
sunsetshimmer wrote:
Still, Beerus was forced to use some power and it was obviously more than just 1%.
Gohan trained for few hours. It was clearly stated he got his old power back. Piccolo wanted to see the same power he used on Buu and he got that. He isn't that much stronger. Don't try to tell me he got like 500 times stronger in matter of few days just because he trained with Piccolo. He barely could turn SSJ year before that.
Even Future Trunks said that Cell saga Gohan was stronger than him.
And everything still doesn't change a fact that Goku is scared of Earth's core and can't survive such heat.
"Goku was holding back" is the common excuse for DBS shitty writing. Especially when you can clearly see him struggle and iirc Tien was in danger.
The fact is, Goku and Vegeta in Super are weak without their god forms.
Also, explain to me, why was it said that Kibitokai can't heal someone as powerful as SSJ4 Goku, yet unexperienced, unfused and mortal Future Trunks could heal SSJ Blue Goku? He used almost all of his power, but he did it. Future Zamasu also easily healed SSJ Rose Goku Black. But Kibitokai couldn't.
And remember, healing and just giving someone your power isn't the same thing.
Just because Future Trunks might be stronger than Kibitokai doesn't mean his healing powers are stronger as well.
Actually beerus used way less than 1% because goku absorbed the power of god, went blue and still coudn't touch beerus
Piccolo said gohan can get way stronger in episode 88, we were shown that in episode 90. Goku in a span of 30 minutes surpassed all the destroyers so gohan with 24 hours can do a lot.
Future trunks said he couldn't sense the brimming power from gohan but that makes sense since gohan was coming from work while trunks flashed back to ssj2 gohan. Even base goku can get scratched by bullets in super cause he lets his guard down so suppression is a thing.
Goku does hold back, its shit writing and i agree but he clearly holds back
Also I'm talking anime trunks not manga trunks, in the manga even goku without his god forms is fodder to gt characters imo
Yeah at this point considering Beerus to be using 0.01% of his power would be considered a highball. It took the 3rd UI Omen in order to equal Beerus. And the 3rd UI Omen has to be 50-60x stronger than SSB. I think Beerus at full-power is about 70,000x stronger than SSG Goku from BoG based on what I can tell.
Honestly whenever they refer to the power that Gohan used against Buu in the Buu arc, I think they are referring to the "power" as in that transformation. Since, it was established to be a transformation. Gohan would have to have far surpassed his Ultimate Gohan self when he fought Goku as Great Saiyaman because he could remotely compete with Goku. For SSJ Gohan>Base Goku to be the case, then Gohan's training since ROF has to have yielded fantastic results. He further trained, gained his old transformation and became extremely strong. Otherwise, it would have to be implied that Gohan went from weaker than his Ultimate Gohan Buu arc self, to being atleast in the same league as SSB. That is an absolutely ridiculous power boost. He couldn't have made that much progress in one day.
He couldn't sense the power "brimming" from gohan because the dude isn't a warrior anymore. He isn't constantly brimming with power anymore. You're right suppression is heavily emphasized in DBS.
Goku holds back constantly but that is within his character to do that I don't see how it is shit writing.
Spoiler:
Super carries on much of Dragon Ball and Z's charm in ways that might not immediately be obvious, while also bringing something new to the table. I certainly can't think of any previous arcs like Goku Black, and, for all its problems, the Tournament of Power is possibly the most ambitious storytelling endeavor in series history as far as how its narrative unfolds. It's also a thrill ride, which is all I wanted and exactly what I got. Super also canonizes decades old fan theories in ways that very naturally tie into the overall fabric of Dragon Ball's world in satisfying ways. All in all, Dragon Ball, Z, and Super are all well worth experiencing.
sunsetshimmer wrote:
Still, Beerus was forced to use some power and it was obviously more than just 1%.
Gohan trained for few hours. It was clearly stated he got his old power back. Piccolo wanted to see the same power he used on Buu and he got that. He isn't that much stronger. Don't try to tell me he got like 500 times stronger in matter of few days just because he trained with Piccolo. He barely could turn SSJ year before that.
Even Future Trunks said that Cell saga Gohan was stronger than him.
And everything still doesn't change a fact that Goku is scared of Earth's core and can't survive such heat.
"Goku was holding back" is the common excuse for DBS shitty writing. Especially when you can clearly see him struggle and iirc Tien was in danger.
The fact is, Goku and Vegeta in Super are weak without their god forms.
Also, explain to me, why was it said that Kibitokai can't heal someone as powerful as SSJ4 Goku, yet unexperienced, unfused and mortal Future Trunks could heal SSJ Blue Goku? He used almost all of his power, but he did it. Future Zamasu also easily healed SSJ Rose Goku Black. But Kibitokai couldn't.
And remember, healing and just giving someone your power isn't the same thing.
Just because Future Trunks might be stronger than Kibitokai doesn't mean his healing powers are stronger as well.
Actually beerus used way less than 1% because goku absorbed the power of god, went blue and still coudn't touch beerus
Piccolo said gohan can get way stronger in episode 88, we were shown that in episode 90. Goku in a span of 30 minutes surpassed all the destroyers so gohan with 24 hours can do a lot.
Future trunks said he couldn't sense the brimming power from gohan but that makes sense since gohan was coming from work while trunks flashed back to ssj2 gohan. Even base goku can get scratched by bullets in super cause he lets his guard down so suppression is a thing.
Goku does hold back, its shit writing and i agree but he clearly holds back
Also I'm talking anime trunks not manga trunks, in the manga even goku without his god forms is fodder to gt characters imo
Yeah at this point considering Beerus to be using 0.01% of his power would be considered a highball. It took the 3rd UI Omen in order to equal Beerus. And the 3rd UI Omen has to be 50-60x stronger than SSB. I think Beerus at full-power is about 70,000x stronger than SSG Goku from BoG based on what I can tell.
Honestly whenever they refer to the power that Gohan used against Buu in the Buu arc, I think they are referring to the "power" as in that transformation. Since, it was established to be a transformation. Gohan would have to have far surpassed his Ultimate Gohan self when he fought Goku as Great Saiyaman because he could remotely compete with Goku. For SSJ Gohan>Base Goku to be the case, then Gohan's training since ROF has to have yielded fantastic results. He further trained, gained his old transformation and became extremely strong. Otherwise, it would have to be implied that Gohan went from weaker than his Ultimate Gohan Buu arc self, to being atleast in the same league as SSB. That is an absolutely ridiculous power boost. He couldn't have made that much progress in one day.
He couldn't sense the power "brimming" from gohan because the dude isn't a warrior anymore. He isn't constantly brimming with power anymore. You're right suppression is heavily emphasized in DBS.
Goku holds back constantly but that is within his character to do that I don't see how it is shit writing.
I was referring more to goku using ssb just to hold back massively vs opponents like he did in this arc a lot not him holding back in general
PFM18 wrote:
Also there's no way that by ROF Vegeta was stronger than SSJ3 Vegetto from the Buu arc
Why isn't there any way ROF Vegeta > Ssj3 Vegito Buu Saga? Even SsjG Goku from BoG arc is above Ssj3 Vegito.
People I'm always keen to Debate with for the sole purpose of increasing experience and joy:
Spoiler:
1.) People who depend on factual material, evidences and valid supports rather than speculation and opinions
2.) People who are ready to debate you and are capable of providing evidence on par, if not more, than me
3.) People who logically argue over things, and rightfully concede if they are wrong, without pointless resistance for the purpose of maintaining one's own beliefs. (This also applies to me)
4.) People who are blunt. Being so nice in debates is fine, but it sometimes restricts people from expressing all their knowledge and arguments. Though that doesn't mean you should be rude and disrespectful
5.) People who debate with passion. I don't stand debating with people who do not enjoy debating with me. It's fair that both me and the other debater are willing to Debate for the enjoyment of it
6.) People who don't like to drag a debate for long. Just debate for a specific set of point; Debating for a predetermined amount, and leave the debate as it is, left to be judged by others. Dragging debates pointlessly results in nothing but Agreeing to Disagree (forcefully) and sometimes flame wars, which aren't favourable results.
7.) People who argue with a powerful tone, though they must have the experience to back it up.
8.) People who show clarity. I need to understand the person I'm debating as much as possible. Though the one I'm debating, including me, should be capable of understanding the other in general, so no blaming would occur
9.) People who are capable of making worthy Rebuttals.
10.) People who are used to Debating Often.
With doing all that, My experience would increase dramatically, and my joy would jump even further. I'd like to make sure my time was never wasted while debating.
BlueVegerot wrote:Rage Trunks vs RoF Golden Freeza, Who is stronger?
Rage trunks destroys
People I'm always keen to Debate with for the sole purpose of increasing experience and joy:
Spoiler:
1.) People who depend on factual material, evidences and valid supports rather than speculation and opinions
2.) People who are ready to debate you and are capable of providing evidence on par, if not more, than me
3.) People who logically argue over things, and rightfully concede if they are wrong, without pointless resistance for the purpose of maintaining one's own beliefs. (This also applies to me)
4.) People who are blunt. Being so nice in debates is fine, but it sometimes restricts people from expressing all their knowledge and arguments. Though that doesn't mean you should be rude and disrespectful
5.) People who debate with passion. I don't stand debating with people who do not enjoy debating with me. It's fair that both me and the other debater are willing to Debate for the enjoyment of it
6.) People who don't like to drag a debate for long. Just debate for a specific set of point; Debating for a predetermined amount, and leave the debate as it is, left to be judged by others. Dragging debates pointlessly results in nothing but Agreeing to Disagree (forcefully) and sometimes flame wars, which aren't favourable results.
7.) People who argue with a powerful tone, though they must have the experience to back it up.
8.) People who show clarity. I need to understand the person I'm debating as much as possible. Though the one I'm debating, including me, should be capable of understanding the other in general, so no blaming would occur
9.) People who are capable of making worthy Rebuttals.
10.) People who are used to Debating Often.
With doing all that, My experience would increase dramatically, and my joy would jump even further. I'd like to make sure my time was never wasted while debating.
BlueVegerot wrote:Future Trunks destroys anything from GT and thats in his normal ss2 form not even needing rage.
SS2?
Pff! 0.00001% base is enough! Even DBS Krillin can beat Gogeta SSJ4!
Oh god...
Base Goku From the RoF arc onwards stomps GT. Show any evidence otherwise
People I'm always keen to Debate with for the sole purpose of increasing experience and joy:
Spoiler:
1.) People who depend on factual material, evidences and valid supports rather than speculation and opinions
2.) People who are ready to debate you and are capable of providing evidence on par, if not more, than me
3.) People who logically argue over things, and rightfully concede if they are wrong, without pointless resistance for the purpose of maintaining one's own beliefs. (This also applies to me)
4.) People who are blunt. Being so nice in debates is fine, but it sometimes restricts people from expressing all their knowledge and arguments. Though that doesn't mean you should be rude and disrespectful
5.) People who debate with passion. I don't stand debating with people who do not enjoy debating with me. It's fair that both me and the other debater are willing to Debate for the enjoyment of it
6.) People who don't like to drag a debate for long. Just debate for a specific set of point; Debating for a predetermined amount, and leave the debate as it is, left to be judged by others. Dragging debates pointlessly results in nothing but Agreeing to Disagree (forcefully) and sometimes flame wars, which aren't favourable results.
7.) People who argue with a powerful tone, though they must have the experience to back it up.
8.) People who show clarity. I need to understand the person I'm debating as much as possible. Though the one I'm debating, including me, should be capable of understanding the other in general, so no blaming would occur
9.) People who are capable of making worthy Rebuttals.
10.) People who are used to Debating Often.
With doing all that, My experience would increase dramatically, and my joy would jump even further. I'd like to make sure my time was never wasted while debating.
Why does most fans say SsjB Vegito FT arc > Ssj2 Kefla while ignoring the obvious evidence infront of them? They say SsjB Saiyans FT arc > Female Saiyans ToP arc to justify their reasonings, but that's wrong because ToP arc is different than FT arc, so if anyone is using the FT arc, they need to quantify it with the ToP arc boosts and powers, otherwise their argument would be unquantifiable and thus unreliable. Evidence leans towards Kefla far more than vice versa
People I'm always keen to Debate with for the sole purpose of increasing experience and joy:
Spoiler:
1.) People who depend on factual material, evidences and valid supports rather than speculation and opinions
2.) People who are ready to debate you and are capable of providing evidence on par, if not more, than me
3.) People who logically argue over things, and rightfully concede if they are wrong, without pointless resistance for the purpose of maintaining one's own beliefs. (This also applies to me)
4.) People who are blunt. Being so nice in debates is fine, but it sometimes restricts people from expressing all their knowledge and arguments. Though that doesn't mean you should be rude and disrespectful
5.) People who debate with passion. I don't stand debating with people who do not enjoy debating with me. It's fair that both me and the other debater are willing to Debate for the enjoyment of it
6.) People who don't like to drag a debate for long. Just debate for a specific set of point; Debating for a predetermined amount, and leave the debate as it is, left to be judged by others. Dragging debates pointlessly results in nothing but Agreeing to Disagree (forcefully) and sometimes flame wars, which aren't favourable results.
7.) People who argue with a powerful tone, though they must have the experience to back it up.
8.) People who show clarity. I need to understand the person I'm debating as much as possible. Though the one I'm debating, including me, should be capable of understanding the other in general, so no blaming would occur
9.) People who are capable of making worthy Rebuttals.
10.) People who are used to Debating Often.
With doing all that, My experience would increase dramatically, and my joy would jump even further. I'd like to make sure my time was never wasted while debating.
jeffbr92 wrote:- Super Saiyan GOD Goku (BoG) vs. Piccolo (ToP)
Piccolo takes it.
People I'm always keen to Debate with for the sole purpose of increasing experience and joy:
Spoiler:
1.) People who depend on factual material, evidences and valid supports rather than speculation and opinions
2.) People who are ready to debate you and are capable of providing evidence on par, if not more, than me
3.) People who logically argue over things, and rightfully concede if they are wrong, without pointless resistance for the purpose of maintaining one's own beliefs. (This also applies to me)
4.) People who are blunt. Being so nice in debates is fine, but it sometimes restricts people from expressing all their knowledge and arguments. Though that doesn't mean you should be rude and disrespectful
5.) People who debate with passion. I don't stand debating with people who do not enjoy debating with me. It's fair that both me and the other debater are willing to Debate for the enjoyment of it
6.) People who don't like to drag a debate for long. Just debate for a specific set of point; Debating for a predetermined amount, and leave the debate as it is, left to be judged by others. Dragging debates pointlessly results in nothing but Agreeing to Disagree (forcefully) and sometimes flame wars, which aren't favourable results.
7.) People who argue with a powerful tone, though they must have the experience to back it up.
8.) People who show clarity. I need to understand the person I'm debating as much as possible. Though the one I'm debating, including me, should be capable of understanding the other in general, so no blaming would occur
9.) People who are capable of making worthy Rebuttals.
10.) People who are used to Debating Often.
With doing all that, My experience would increase dramatically, and my joy would jump even further. I'd like to make sure my time was never wasted while debating.
MUI Goku would fart her out of existence. Even SsjB Goku from episode 122 onwards could destroy her easily. Goku kept getting stronger throughout the Tournament and MUI Goku is far above UI Goku
People I'm always keen to Debate with for the sole purpose of increasing experience and joy:
Spoiler:
1.) People who depend on factual material, evidences and valid supports rather than speculation and opinions
2.) People who are ready to debate you and are capable of providing evidence on par, if not more, than me
3.) People who logically argue over things, and rightfully concede if they are wrong, without pointless resistance for the purpose of maintaining one's own beliefs. (This also applies to me)
4.) People who are blunt. Being so nice in debates is fine, but it sometimes restricts people from expressing all their knowledge and arguments. Though that doesn't mean you should be rude and disrespectful
5.) People who debate with passion. I don't stand debating with people who do not enjoy debating with me. It's fair that both me and the other debater are willing to Debate for the enjoyment of it
6.) People who don't like to drag a debate for long. Just debate for a specific set of point; Debating for a predetermined amount, and leave the debate as it is, left to be judged by others. Dragging debates pointlessly results in nothing but Agreeing to Disagree (forcefully) and sometimes flame wars, which aren't favourable results.
7.) People who argue with a powerful tone, though they must have the experience to back it up.
8.) People who show clarity. I need to understand the person I'm debating as much as possible. Though the one I'm debating, including me, should be capable of understanding the other in general, so no blaming would occur
9.) People who are capable of making worthy Rebuttals.
10.) People who are used to Debating Often.
With doing all that, My experience would increase dramatically, and my joy would jump even further. I'd like to make sure my time was never wasted while debating.
Dragon Ball Gus wrote:Universe Survival Vegeta (Not counting SSB Evolution) vs Universe Survival Hit
Vegeta Takes the cake, if it's generally including Vegeta
People I'm always keen to Debate with for the sole purpose of increasing experience and joy:
Spoiler:
1.) People who depend on factual material, evidences and valid supports rather than speculation and opinions
2.) People who are ready to debate you and are capable of providing evidence on par, if not more, than me
3.) People who logically argue over things, and rightfully concede if they are wrong, without pointless resistance for the purpose of maintaining one's own beliefs. (This also applies to me)
4.) People who are blunt. Being so nice in debates is fine, but it sometimes restricts people from expressing all their knowledge and arguments. Though that doesn't mean you should be rude and disrespectful
5.) People who debate with passion. I don't stand debating with people who do not enjoy debating with me. It's fair that both me and the other debater are willing to Debate for the enjoyment of it
6.) People who don't like to drag a debate for long. Just debate for a specific set of point; Debating for a predetermined amount, and leave the debate as it is, left to be judged by others. Dragging debates pointlessly results in nothing but Agreeing to Disagree (forcefully) and sometimes flame wars, which aren't favourable results.
7.) People who argue with a powerful tone, though they must have the experience to back it up.
8.) People who show clarity. I need to understand the person I'm debating as much as possible. Though the one I'm debating, including me, should be capable of understanding the other in general, so no blaming would occur
9.) People who are capable of making worthy Rebuttals.
10.) People who are used to Debating Often.
With doing all that, My experience would increase dramatically, and my joy would jump even further. I'd like to make sure my time was never wasted while debating.
PFM18 wrote:
Also there's no way that by ROF Vegeta was stronger than SSJ3 Vegetto from the Buu arc
Why isn't there any way ROF Vegeta > Ssj3 Vegito Buu Saga? Even SsjG Goku from BoG arc is above Ssj3 Vegito.
...yeah that is great and all but BoG arc SSG Goku>>ROF Base Vegeta.
Also, dude you just posted 7 times in a row. That is totally unecessary
Spoiler:
Super carries on much of Dragon Ball and Z's charm in ways that might not immediately be obvious, while also bringing something new to the table. I certainly can't think of any previous arcs like Goku Black, and, for all its problems, the Tournament of Power is possibly the most ambitious storytelling endeavor in series history as far as how its narrative unfolds. It's also a thrill ride, which is all I wanted and exactly what I got. Super also canonizes decades old fan theories in ways that very naturally tie into the overall fabric of Dragon Ball's world in satisfying ways. All in all, Dragon Ball, Z, and Super are all well worth experiencing.
Alright guys, time for another hypothetical question, and today we're talking about fusions. And this question will be about the two strongest half breed Saiyans in the multiverse. So without further ado...
How strong would a fusion between Future Trunks and (Present) Gohan, otherwise known as Trunhan (Gohanks was taken), be mixing their two strongest forms, that being Super Saiyan Rage and Ultimate? And of course, who would be the strongest person he would beat?
PFM18 wrote:
Also there's no way that by ROF Vegeta was stronger than SSJ3 Vegetto from the Buu arc
Why isn't there any way ROF Vegeta > Ssj3 Vegito Buu Saga? Even SsjG Goku from BoG arc is above Ssj3 Vegito.
...yeah that is great and all but BoG arc SSG Goku>>ROF Base Vegeta.
Also, dude you just posted 7 times in a row. That is totally unecessary
RoF Base Vegeta > SsjG Goku BoG though
People I'm always keen to Debate with for the sole purpose of increasing experience and joy:
Spoiler:
1.) People who depend on factual material, evidences and valid supports rather than speculation and opinions
2.) People who are ready to debate you and are capable of providing evidence on par, if not more, than me
3.) People who logically argue over things, and rightfully concede if they are wrong, without pointless resistance for the purpose of maintaining one's own beliefs. (This also applies to me)
4.) People who are blunt. Being so nice in debates is fine, but it sometimes restricts people from expressing all their knowledge and arguments. Though that doesn't mean you should be rude and disrespectful
5.) People who debate with passion. I don't stand debating with people who do not enjoy debating with me. It's fair that both me and the other debater are willing to Debate for the enjoyment of it
6.) People who don't like to drag a debate for long. Just debate for a specific set of point; Debating for a predetermined amount, and leave the debate as it is, left to be judged by others. Dragging debates pointlessly results in nothing but Agreeing to Disagree (forcefully) and sometimes flame wars, which aren't favourable results.
7.) People who argue with a powerful tone, though they must have the experience to back it up.
8.) People who show clarity. I need to understand the person I'm debating as much as possible. Though the one I'm debating, including me, should be capable of understanding the other in general, so no blaming would occur
9.) People who are capable of making worthy Rebuttals.
10.) People who are used to Debating Often.
With doing all that, My experience would increase dramatically, and my joy would jump even further. I'd like to make sure my time was never wasted while debating.
DB▪Magnum-Expert wrote:
Why isn't there any way ROF Vegeta > Ssj3 Vegito Buu Saga? Even SsjG Goku from BoG arc is above Ssj3 Vegito.
...yeah that is great and all but BoG arc SSG Goku>>ROF Base Vegeta.
Also, dude you just posted 7 times in a row. That is totally unecessary
RoF Base Vegeta > SsjG Goku BoG though
Your response to me makes no sense because I had literally just explicitly stated the opposite.
SSG Goku BoG>>ROF Base Vegeta
That "godly base" crap was only a thing in the ROF movie not DBS.
Spoiler:
Super carries on much of Dragon Ball and Z's charm in ways that might not immediately be obvious, while also bringing something new to the table. I certainly can't think of any previous arcs like Goku Black, and, for all its problems, the Tournament of Power is possibly the most ambitious storytelling endeavor in series history as far as how its narrative unfolds. It's also a thrill ride, which is all I wanted and exactly what I got. Super also canonizes decades old fan theories in ways that very naturally tie into the overall fabric of Dragon Ball's world in satisfying ways. All in all, Dragon Ball, Z, and Super are all well worth experiencing.
Dragon Ball Gus wrote:Alright guys, time for another hypothetical question, and today we're talking about fusions. And this question will be about the two strongest half breed Saiyans in the multiverse. So without further ado...
How strong would a fusion between Future Trunks and (Present) Gohan, otherwise known as Trunhan (Gohanks was taken), be mixing their two strongest forms, that being Super Saiyan Rage and Ultimate? And of course, who would be the strongest person he would beat?
I think Merged Zamasu is the strongest person they would beat. Though Black is stronger than Trunks, Gohan is stronger than Zamasu, so they could even things out when fused.
PFM18 wrote:
...yeah that is great and all but BoG arc SSG Goku>>ROF Base Vegeta.
Also, dude you just posted 7 times in a row. That is totally unecessary
RoF Base Vegeta > SsjG Goku BoG though
Your response to me makes no sense because I had literally just explicitly stated the opposite.
SSG Goku BoG>>ROF Base Vegeta
That "godly base" crap was only a thing in the ROF movie not DBS.
Why are you assuming I believe the godly base crap? Also, you still didn't exam why that's wrong. All evidences In the show suggest that Base Goku surpassed SsjG Goku BoG. I'd want to see evidence otherwise
People I'm always keen to Debate with for the sole purpose of increasing experience and joy:
Spoiler:
1.) People who depend on factual material, evidences and valid supports rather than speculation and opinions
2.) People who are ready to debate you and are capable of providing evidence on par, if not more, than me
3.) People who logically argue over things, and rightfully concede if they are wrong, without pointless resistance for the purpose of maintaining one's own beliefs. (This also applies to me)
4.) People who are blunt. Being so nice in debates is fine, but it sometimes restricts people from expressing all their knowledge and arguments. Though that doesn't mean you should be rude and disrespectful
5.) People who debate with passion. I don't stand debating with people who do not enjoy debating with me. It's fair that both me and the other debater are willing to Debate for the enjoyment of it
6.) People who don't like to drag a debate for long. Just debate for a specific set of point; Debating for a predetermined amount, and leave the debate as it is, left to be judged by others. Dragging debates pointlessly results in nothing but Agreeing to Disagree (forcefully) and sometimes flame wars, which aren't favourable results.
7.) People who argue with a powerful tone, though they must have the experience to back it up.
8.) People who show clarity. I need to understand the person I'm debating as much as possible. Though the one I'm debating, including me, should be capable of understanding the other in general, so no blaming would occur
9.) People who are capable of making worthy Rebuttals.
10.) People who are used to Debating Often.
With doing all that, My experience would increase dramatically, and my joy would jump even further. I'd like to make sure my time was never wasted while debating.
jeffbr92 wrote:- Super Saiyan GOD Goku (BoG) vs. Piccolo (ToP)
Piccolo takes it.
Facepalm.
That's not really making the other side credible. If you want to be respectful, at least tell me why I'm wrong. The facepalm absolutely has no relevance here at all. If you can't, then that's on you
People I'm always keen to Debate with for the sole purpose of increasing experience and joy:
Spoiler:
1.) People who depend on factual material, evidences and valid supports rather than speculation and opinions
2.) People who are ready to debate you and are capable of providing evidence on par, if not more, than me
3.) People who logically argue over things, and rightfully concede if they are wrong, without pointless resistance for the purpose of maintaining one's own beliefs. (This also applies to me)
4.) People who are blunt. Being so nice in debates is fine, but it sometimes restricts people from expressing all their knowledge and arguments. Though that doesn't mean you should be rude and disrespectful
5.) People who debate with passion. I don't stand debating with people who do not enjoy debating with me. It's fair that both me and the other debater are willing to Debate for the enjoyment of it
6.) People who don't like to drag a debate for long. Just debate for a specific set of point; Debating for a predetermined amount, and leave the debate as it is, left to be judged by others. Dragging debates pointlessly results in nothing but Agreeing to Disagree (forcefully) and sometimes flame wars, which aren't favourable results.
7.) People who argue with a powerful tone, though they must have the experience to back it up.
8.) People who show clarity. I need to understand the person I'm debating as much as possible. Though the one I'm debating, including me, should be capable of understanding the other in general, so no blaming would occur
9.) People who are capable of making worthy Rebuttals.
10.) People who are used to Debating Often.
With doing all that, My experience would increase dramatically, and my joy would jump even further. I'd like to make sure my time was never wasted while debating.
DB▪Magnum-Expert wrote:
RoF Base Vegeta > SsjG Goku BoG though
Your response to me makes no sense because I had literally just explicitly stated the opposite.
SSG Goku BoG>>ROF Base Vegeta
That "godly base" crap was only a thing in the ROF movie not DBS.
Why are you assuming I believe the godly base crap? Also, you still didn't exam why that's wrong. All evidences In the show suggest that Base Goku surpassed SsjG Goku BoG. I'd want to see evidence otherwise
There is only evidence that they received an astronomical boost from around that time period. Goku from the ritual and then from Whis's training and Vegeta just from training more with Whis. There's plenty evidence of their biggest boost in the franchise in one time frame, but nothing that implies specifically that it is THAT large to the point where Base Goku ROF>SSG Goku(BoG).
1. Because When Beerus tells Goku that he infused the SSG power within himself, Goku was in his Super Saiyan form and at first only did about as good as he did as a SSG. If his base was on par with SSG, going Super Saiyan would make him dramatically stronger than he was as a SSG.
2. The narrator states that Goku has surpassed Super Saiyan God not when he was in base against Freeza, but when he turns SSB for the first time in DBS. This contradicts the idea of this "Saiyan Beyond God" stuff. If he had actually surpassed SSG in base, the narrator would have stated it then.
3. If Goku's base was stronger than his SSG self, then the U6 Arc would have completely invalidated the BoG arc and Beerus would have to be completely retarded for it to make sense. Cabba, Frost, and Magetta were as strong or stronger than the Base Saiyans but weaker than their SSJ forms. (without including Cabba's SSJ transformation that he achieved during the tournament.) Why would Beerus have this prophecy of a SSG that could give him a fun fight, if he could have just gone to U6 and fought any of the 3 aforementioned characters and gotten atleast as good of a fight. That makes absolutely no sense.
4. If DBS followed the movies where Base Goku>SSG Goku, then using SSJ 1-3 would be impossible. The movies established that there was Saiyan Beyond God and SSGSS, and those were the only two forms Goku and Vegeta had at the time. The only time it was explicitly stated that the Base Saiyans had surpassed SSG, was in the promotional material for the movie that was obviously changed when they had an entire series in mind to come after it and they wanted to still use the classic SSJ transformations.
SSJ Post-BoG>SSG NOT Base Post BoG>SSG was the case.
Last edited by PFM18 on Mon Jun 04, 2018 11:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
Spoiler:
Super carries on much of Dragon Ball and Z's charm in ways that might not immediately be obvious, while also bringing something new to the table. I certainly can't think of any previous arcs like Goku Black, and, for all its problems, the Tournament of Power is possibly the most ambitious storytelling endeavor in series history as far as how its narrative unfolds. It's also a thrill ride, which is all I wanted and exactly what I got. Super also canonizes decades old fan theories in ways that very naturally tie into the overall fabric of Dragon Ball's world in satisfying ways. All in all, Dragon Ball, Z, and Super are all well worth experiencing.
Given how confused you are, I'll be posting why you're wrong
[spoiler]Goku reverts back from SsjG while fighting Beerus:
Beerus thought that the SsjG Time Limit has gone, although Goku didn't show any sign of notice:
Goku reverts back to Ssj:
Everyone senses Goku's Ki, thus everyone came to the same conclusion:
Again, you would think this means Goku got weaker while reverting back to Ssj right?
Wrong
You'd think this is the case based on the fact that Beerus easily starts to push Goku away:
Beerus casually pushed Goku with a finger as shown above, and casually talks while Goku is trying to attack him.
Is that true though? NO.
Prior to all that, before Goku started reverting back to Ssj, he still had his SsjG power intact, thus no one sensed him, and neither did Whis comment anything on it. Yet Beerus managed to ridicule that SAME SSJG POWER:
He quite clearly implies that Beerus is STILL using that same power against SsjG either way. Nothing suggests Beerus powered down. That's why he's easily blabbering while SsjG Goku is trying his best fighting Beerus.
Beerus specifies "this much power". Which amount of power? The power he is CURRENTLY using.
It doesn't make sense for Goku to get weaker. By Beerus's words themselves: Goku kept surpassing his limits during this same fight:
This is exactly what Goku's entire case revolves around in here, as will be shown down...
Vegeta throws a Ki blast towards Piccolo and Whis, because both of them thought this was "over" in which case Goku reverted to Regular Ssj, thus he "automatically lost" or at least according to them. Vegeta's action signifies that it isn't over yet:
Goku himself still dashes towards Beerus, without realizing he got weaker. This is all after he got flicked by Beerus:
This same Ssj Goku does better than the Goku who, at the end, faired very worse against Beerus:
This caused Beerus to question himself again (he wouldn't do that if he was weaker or if he was getting weaker, since Goku later got even stronger as a Ssj):
Happens TWICE:
Beerus knows that Goku can surpass his limits naturally.
Beerus tells Goku the case:
"I thought your time was up"
Implying he never got the slightest bit weaker at all.
Goku realizes he changed after being notified by Beerus:
Goku bluntly confesses that he doesn't feel weaker at all:
Beerus explains it:
With all of that mentioned, we can easily conclude that Goku's Power never got weaker at all. Despite the form being lost (this time limit was retconned in the tournament of power arc), the power completely merged with Goku. Thus, the power itself remained inside him, rather than the form in general. No power was lost, and Goku is still prone to getting stronger and breaking his initial limits further more.
Proof of Goku getting even further stronger is when he powered up to fight a powered-up Beerus and manages to trade blows with him, and enjoys the fight with Beerus:
The Narrator then confirms that only at this point did both characters perform a "true godly battle" rather than before (He also added to the notion "fighting idiots" or along this phrase, to emphasize their crazy lust for battle and how dense they are when it comes to usual critical manners, which is evident when Beerus said to Goku that his ignorance or foolishness has rubbed him off already):
The episode titles prove this:
They start all the way from "show me the power of Super Saiyan God!" which is the initial point, then we are shown that they are still going on with it, given we know Goku gets stronger through battle, then "Goku, Go Surpass Super Saiyan God!":
It is honestly evident enough here that they're trying to imply to us that Goku got stronger as a Ssj.
That's why later on, when Beerus decides to get even stronger and increase his strength, he starts soloing Goku, but he rises up telling Beerus it isn't over yet:
Despite having said before that he went Full Power:
Now you're probably thinking that it's only Ssj right? WRONG
Before we move on on a huge scale, let's go step by step, It's far neater and better that way
You might argue that Goku got weaker in the next episode (despite the fact that Episode 13 already proves that Goku got a lot stronger rather than weaker) because of this:
Although This actually proves nothing of that sort. Beerus is just trying to provoke Goku into showing more power than he's already doing by beating him up. In fact, this is just Beerus trying to state that a "SsjG" concept-wise is supposed to be stronger, and Nothing more or less.
Proof of Beerus just trying to provoke Goku is his reaction after Goku powers up based on Beerus's provocation:
That's It? For getting weaker? Goku powers up even MORE than before, and before was Goku getting even more powerful than SsjG. Apparently, Beerus wants to fight Goku at his fullest, so he's destroying him and provoking him into releasing more power, not getting weaker, or otherwise it would have been mentioned.
Ssj Goku Episode 13/14 >>>>> SsjG
Beerus starts beating up Goku casually again by increasing his power:
But all of this actually shows us that Beerus is far beyond Goku and that Beerus is using even further power against Goku, but Still having Goku beyond Beerus.
Beerus literally laughs and declares himself a winner with utmost joy when he outclasses Goku, which absolutely makes no sense if Goku got weaker since Beerus already proved himself to be above SsjG Goku on Episode 13 so Goku losing would be pretty much expected:
Yet even after all that, Goku comes back stating he's not done Yet, catching Beerus's attention, while barely phased from Beerus's blasts:
This would mean Goku would have to have gotten even stronger, due to the fact he couldn't with stand his earlier attacks, but then got stronger. An evidence behind it is Beerus praising Goku's Ssj power as the true power of a SsjG, the one he was always searching for, despite not saying a word of that to Goku previously until Goku powered up to his best. Beerus draws out a smirk on his face based on that power Goku put out which partially resisted Beerus's nullification:
Afterwards, Goku reverts back to Base form, completely beaten by Beerus. However Beerus states that Goku absorbed the SsjG power and PERFECTED IT. Beerus also credits his Ask power by stating that he let him use "this" much power:
Even more Proof that Goku got stronger is Beerus's next statement:
According to Beerus, he doubted the greatness to a SsjG until the end bit when he fought Goku. The only time he told Goku this was after his power increase when Goku resisted his Nullification power. This implies Goku got yet even FAR beyond SsjG, not weaker.
Goku Yet stands up again and gets stronger:
Not only does Goku believe he can beat the Beerus who Goku got a taste of his power (Usually characters can tell how strong another is just by witnessing them. They do underestimate them sometimes though), but he states he hasn't used all his power yet which goes contradictory to what he said AND did before.
Goku powers up yet again to his "every Ounce of Power", making Beerus state that he won't be able to extinguish him as easily. This implies that Beerus originally thought it's easy to extinguish Goku prior to the current situation, making Goku as a Ssj in the current situation beyond What he originally was before:
Here, Goku fires an all-out Kamehameha to Beerus, and Beerus throws a blast enough to "extinguish" Goku (Beerus implies that by telling Goku to show him every ounce of his power, then implying it's going to be the last thing). However, both of their attacks combine, creating the sphere of destruction, controlled under Beerus's favor (implying Beerus won the beam struggle overall):
Goku is forced to block that same blast which would destroy everything which gets near it. Goku tries as a Ssj but fails:
Goku states that it still isn't over yet. You'd think he's simply in denial, but an interesting thing is about to take place:
Beerus tells Goku "you really sure you're not at your limit"? Beerus believes Goku's limit has been completely been reached, which is the level Goku got to as a Ssj. Goku however tells him to "shut up" and DESTROYS the Sphere of Destruction in base form:
Goku tells Beerus to Shut up because Beerus is deciding his limit to be where he got, which provokes Goku. This implids Goku at this time completely broke his limits, making his base form even beyond Regular Ssj that surpassed SsjG on multiple occasions far beyond normality. This is more evident as Goku tells Beerus not to judge people's limits, and laughs at the end, implying he surpassed his limits and beat Beerus's ever expectations completely::
Making Base Goku End of Episode 14 > Ssj Goku Episodes13/14 >>>>> SsjG Goku BoG Episode 9+
You might argue it's temporary, but no. That was NEVER been stated before and just speculation. Later arcs prove this to be the case which we'll go on in this. Some people might try to bring Vegeta's case, although his case is very different (Goku's case is shown to us that Goku broke his limits, unlike Vegeta who mutated into a temporary transformation), as in Vegeta's case, it's STATED by Beerus that his power fell back implying it to be a temporary boost. Another thing is that Vegeta's power was a transformation:
Even Episode 14's Title implies that Goku used every last bit of his power, which was in BASE FORM:
Let's further continue now through the arcs
Vegeta tries to surpass Goku and Beerus by training as hard as possible, and he certainly did get stronger than before, but nowhere near Goku and Beerus. Whis states that If Vegeta trains the same way, he'll never reach anywhere near Beerus:
This also includes Goku, as later on, Whis tells Vegeta if he learns to perfectly control his Ki, then he'll surpass Goku. This implies that if Vegeta doesn't learn this, he won't be able to surpass Goku, since this is also the only suggested way to surpass Goku by Whis, a character beyond Beerus:
Back then, it is believed by Vegeta that the SsjG Form in general has ran out, though Goku still absorbed that power and perfected it, besides already breaking his limits forth. So Vegeta is trying to surpass the Goku Who has broke his limits beyond what has already surpassed SsjG Goku's Power from BoG prior absorbing its power. Vegeta is trying to surpass Goku without going SsjG. He believes SsjG is useless, so he doesn't want to undergo the ritual, which Goku implies to be needed when Goku tells him that they promised so. This implies Goku REALLY did surpass SsjG power:
Notice How Vegeta differentiates SsjG from Goku in general? All relating to the same conclusion.
Vegeta trains for 6 months with Whis on Beerus's planet, which is a training supposed to be powerful enough to surpass Goku, who surpassed SsjG BoG as a Ssj and in Base Form as well. Vegeta is credited by Goku that he might have surpassed Goku, the being who surpassed SsjG from before:
Goku Even comments that Vegeta's Ki is completely different than it was on Earth, and not just power-wise, but almost everything about it, Type-Wise and all. Goku even "hardly" believes that he is Vegeta. Yet despite all that he states "you might be" and later is shown that Goku is Stronger Than Vegeta yet, but relative. This mainly shows that Vegeta's increase in power is astronomical indeed, to an utmost point which wouldn't be relevant if it was inferior to god levels, ESPECIALLY since According to Whis, this type of training would make Vegeta good enough to surpass Goku, who is referenced to have his God Level:
Goku And Vegeta in base form while being completely defenseless (They were occupied by their previous training from Whis) survived being Hit by a Ki blast from Beerus:
Whis Even makes it sound as if surviving it is a great feat on its own. If you think this blast was weak in comparison to what Goku fought, then you're absolutely wrong. Vegeta states that because Beerus is sleeping, he can't hold back:
Goku Even complements Vegeta on surving Beerus's attacks head on. This stimulates the factor of Zenkai boosts in them, which would be a huge factor to why Vegeta would gain this much power. All of this was done in BASE FORMS:
All of this shows how their base forms is in the realm of Gods as to how they are capable of surviving Beerus's unrestrained attacks, and in Base form. Ssj Goku was getting destroyed by Holding Back Beerus while fighting Beerus, suggesting that the power increase he got is certainly astronomical
We're still far from done yet. In RoF arc, when Krillin and Gohan sense Base Goku and Final Form Frieza fighting, Krillin implies that this battle (and in accordance to Gohan's reference to Ki), is more intense and holds MORE POWER than when Goku went against Beerus:
Basically, Krillin's and Gohan's fear and feel of the energies and intensity of the fight that's occurring surpasses that of Goku when he fought Beerus.
Do Note that, the Z Fighters sensed Goku's battle with Beerus when revered back to Ssj, got stronger by far, and his base form when he busted the sphere of Destruction
Proof of them sensing Goku in general after reverting back from SsjG (his Regular forms have no God Ki, enabling normal beings to sense his power):
You may argue that the narrator said Goku only surpassed SsjG when he went SsjB:
Wrong. This only implies that Goku learned to transform into a Stronger transformation. This is herm's translation and the interpretation based the translation:
Narrator: "In order to surpass the powered up Freeza, Goku mutated into a form that exceeded even Super Saiyan God."
Significance: As chapter 5 indicated a few months ago, Goku's blue form is a step up from Super Saiyan God. Also, another instance of "mutation" being used to describe a transformation.
Also, Krillin implies that Goku surpassed SsjG Transformation-Wise not power wise from BoG, as it also wouldn't make sense considering they can't even sense God Ki, which Gohan outrightly states in the following:
This is supported by how King Kai references the fact that Goku can now go SsjG without the ritual, which means the point wasn't about power, but was about transformation-wise:
Goku Even confirms it's a form that surpasses a SsjG (aside from the narrator from the next episode, meaning the narrator interpreted it that way), and not stating that it's a form which allows him to "surpass his power from when he went SsjG". This correlates with the previous references about it being only transformation-wise:
According to Whis, Goku and Vegeta reached a level where they're barely capable of sensing God Ki. This implies that there's a specific tier that you should top in order to get into the God Tier Zone:
Vegeta does that In base, and "barely". Note that at this time, their bases have already surpassed SsjG BoG at that time. SsjG Goku is the tip of the God Zone, as mentioned by Whis that just barely reached the level where they can sense God Ki, and in general, Despite having surpassed SsjG. This establishes the fact that Goku got stronger In base considering he's still "one step ahead of Vegeta":
Some people might start using what Whis said to suggest that only Super Saiyan Goku and Vegeta are above SsjG and not their bases (Basically whis states that Goku and Vegeta should become stronger without going Super Saiyans). However, that's not actually the point of this statement. The term "Super Saiyan" can refer to all Super Saiyan forms, and this is exactly what Whis is referring to, reaffirming what Akira Toriyama stated in Saiko Jump's June 2014 Issue about Goku and Vegeta no longer resorting to going Ssj2 or Ssj3, and instead focus on mastering their base and regular Super Saiyan form (This was completely changed in later arcs, however based on the Tournament of Power, it can be concluded Goku mastered Ssj2, though not Ssj3 due to the Stamina Issues still being factored). Another point Whis implies is how training in their bases would be much more effective than in Super Saiyans, as Both Goku and Vegeta realize they should train in their bases rather than a Super Saiyan, otherwise they wouldn't know the realm of power that lies ahead, supported by the fact that Both Vegeta and Goku never once went Super Saiyan despite Whis never dismissing the idea of transforming:
So if anything, this supports me in many ways, as it also correlates with the previous scans which we used to prove our point. This rule of not transforming into more than a regular Super Saiyan has been obeyed and followed till the Universe 6 Arc, until it was completely ignored during the Future Trunks Arc.
The Goku in RoF arc has far surpassed his previous counterpart ridiculously. Beerus states that Goku got a lot stronger than back then (it is confirmed that Goku and Vegeta can only transform into Regular Super Saiyan if they wanted for any reason so that they could improve. This is supported by Whis, where he states that for them to improve, they should rely on their Base, and reaffirms the usage of Super Saiyan, and Base Mastery, hence relating to What Akira Toriyama Suggested previously. Although this was after achieving SsjB, Beerus has no knowledge of this, and even Whis generalizes their inferiority when it comes to going to the dimension {Despite both having SsjB's initial power} which you can't move in unless you prevent the leakage of your Ki despite even stating that they became much more powerful in a very short amount of time, with surprised tone. Beerus apparently realized the Saiyan's Potential, which explains why he wanted to hurry and throw them in that Dimension Whis sends them to, as they'd improve quickly to give Beerus fun fighting him) and wanted to fight him (Goku admits his utter inferiority to Beerus Power-Wise though) {I'd also like to mention that if Goku and Vegeta were to be thrown in that Dimension which Whis throws both to, he thought (Despite witnessing their power and initial SsjB power) it's too much for them. Both Goku and Vegeta live up to Beerus's expectations}:
Both Goku and Vegeta are thrown into a place which is far beyond their limits back then:
Again, this was after Whis witnessing Goku's and Vegeta's initial SsjB power:
Indeed, both Goku and Vegeta manage to surpass their limits and become capable of moving in this Dimension Whis throws them into, meeting Beerus's Expectations and surpassing Whis's:
(NOTE: This "Initial SsjB" business, while it's true it might (MIGHT) be temporary transformation-wise, the power itself was never said to be temporary, since Vegeta smirks as he achieves this power and whis notes their heightened powers, implying they got stronger at the instance forward).
Goku got far stronger than before that it's utterly ridiculous to say the least. I'll be showing that more now
In the Universe 6 Arc, Goku and Vegeta enter the Room Of Spirit And Time for 3 years, continuously training together, so their must have been a significant increase, although not much known (but significant). You may argue that Vegeta stated they reached their limits:
That's completely wrong. Vegeta was already distant from the idea of training with his rival, Kakarot. While that may seem to be an assumption pulled out by me at first sight, I've proven (easily done) it. This ultimately and factually proves it isn't an assumption, considering the show, as expected, contradicted itself. Characters have been getting stronger yet so it isn't a stretch to say they got stronger.
Base Goku in the Universe 6 tournament manages to scratch hit:
You would think that this is not a reliable answer, right? Wrong. We know Vegeta gets completely destroyed as a SsjB against Hit
Hit dashes towards Vegeta in high speeds:
Vegeta claims Hit is actually FAST. Hit is at SsjB Tier in terms of Speed since he acknowledged him as "fast" while in SsjB:
Vegeta then further comments the following:
"At this low level of Speed".
The claim here makes us conclude Vegeta is a lot faster than Hit Naturally.
Vegeta furthers to attack:
And hit notices it at the process (He can precieve SsjB Tier Movements and Combat Speeds):
Hit suddenly, out of the blue, manages to hit Vegeta:
Actually knocking Vegeta back:
Given that Vegeta acknowledges Hit's speed and seeing how Hit can perceive SsjB Tier speeds, this would logically suggest that Hit had time to to react to Base Goku's attack. Don't get me wrong though, I'm not saying Base Goku (Actually they made Goku out to be far above Vegeta, but it's not really the issue here. It can also be argued and interpreted either way, so it isn't a reliable thing to state) is Stronger or equal to SsjB Vegeta, but this however suggests that Base Goku is in the same plate of strength as a SsjB Tier as well (something absolutely not possible for a Buu Saga Tier). Hit was capable of Keeping up with SsjB Goku and even tank his hits:
So Logically he's supposed to have had his time to tank Base Goku, but scratching him is nowhere near possible whatsoever unless your strength is out there.
Goku is far faster than Vegeta. Goku requests Hit to use Time-Skip on him. But then the following series of events occur:
Goku challenges Hit speed-wise:
Goku is completely stopped; No prediction is occurring:
Goku has no chance of moving or predetermining an action which is yet to happen:
Goku breaks through Time-Skip and manages to Attack Hit, all referencing speed only:
Base Goku needed to Predict Hit's movements so that he could attack Hit. However, now Goku is fast enough to break through it with sheer speed
If you want to argue that it's resistance, then no. Goku references his speed directly:
Goku implies that he believes Hit has no chance against him Speed-wise. Hit later improves, enough that it allows his speed to stop from breaking through. Hit however didn't get stronger in a sense of Stats, but instead improved his Hax:
EVEN IF you want to argue it's resistance, that would still mean that SsjB Goku is far stronger than Vegeta would have hoped to reach since it didn't work with Vegeta (Vegeta wouldn't have needed to understand the Trick behind Time-Skip to counter hit if he was stronger, enough to resist him). Despite the fact that we know SsjB wears stamina down so easily, probably suggesting Vegeta's easy loss against Hit, this is completely wrong and illogical as Vegeta barely had any time to stay locked onto SsjB, unlike Goku who stayed in his SsjB form most of the time after figuring out how to counter Hit's technique through prediction in base form. SsjB transformation has a ridiculous multiplier between SsjG and SsjB which we witnessed later through the show, especially in the newest arc of Dragon Ball Super, the Tournament of Power. We won't however jump all the way there, since we still have things to argue.
That All would suggest Goku being far beyond Vegeta. And we already showed how even touching Hit would require your power to be in the same plate as SsjB Tier (we know that the SsjB Multiplier is far beyond regular Base Form, and that it is far beyond SsjG multiplier. The Super Saiyan God Multiplier increases your strength more than the difference between Base Goku BoG {Pre God Boost} and Ssj3 Vegito BoG {Goku implied that even Vegito is no match for Beerus, but he thought he can win as a SsjG}. Heck, we can even imply Failed-Ritual Ssj is even beyond a Hypothetical Ssj3 Vegito BoG because his power was agreed even by Vegeta to possibly be the SsjG {Proven wrong later on} Implying Failed-Ritual Ssj Goku is Stronger than Vegito BoG, but then again, The Ritual was supposed to push Goku beyond the boundaries of regular powers and into the God Realm either way, so Goku's SsjG Multiplier is far beyond normality), this would suggest Base Goku has far surpassed the old powers from BoG (Pre God Form) and his power from RoF which we already showcased to be beyond SsjG Goku BoG arc. Goku's Base Form far surpassed His SsjG Counterpart From the BoG Arc.
Now Let's Move On To The Filler Episode, Episode 42
Base Goku was capable of surviving Beerus's attacks and go against him. You might argue that Beerus was restricted right? I mean, Jaco states it, and Vegeta confirms it:
However, this doesn't mean Goku in base form is a bit above his Buu Saga counterpart, or at the very least far weaker than his BoG SsjG counterpart. All this means is that Beerus is restricted. However, there is a flaw which people fail to recognize. Let's look at the events from the start:
Beerus at first decides to end the battle as quick as possible with Goku so that he could get out of the costume he's wearing (he was quite skeptical about wearing it and questioned the idea of a God Of Destruction even wearing such a silly costume):
That would suggest that Beerus thinks he can easily bring Goku down. Remember what Beerus did against Ssj3 Goku in the BoG Arc? 2 shots, a flick and a push onto the shoulder was needed to knock Ssj3 Goku out, and a heavily suppressed Beerus at that. Beerus goes on to punch Base Goku, bearing In his mind that he needs to knock Goku out:
The Question here shifts into whether Beerus has the ability to knock Goku as easily as It was made out to be (bearing in mind that Goku should not be killed). Regardless whether Beerus had the costume or not, Beerus would have no trouble knocking Goku out for days if he was just a bit stronger than his Buu Saga counterpart, or even Buu Level. Goku evenly fights with a restricted suppressed Beerus who's decided to knock Goku out (Beerus doesn't seem to be quick enough to knock Goku, though this doesn't suggest anything of his main power):
At This point, Beerus's hand has become revealed and seen. So Beerus had the option to ultimately fuck Goku just as he did with Ssj3 Goku in BoG, if not worse, but Couldn't Easily achieve such a feat. He could have even knocked him as easily as he did when he almost killed SsjG Goku, but again, COULDN'T, which is an obvious occurrence, revealing how strong Goku is (He even survives direct attacks from Beerus for the sole purpose of knocking him out){Although Beerus even blocks some of Goku's attacks with one hand, it still doesn't change any of what we mentioned, since this would only mean Beerus is far beyond Goku}:
If you still doubt this, then look at the later scans. Beerus got so excited, he powers up further and laughs loudly out of Joy of fighting BASE GOKU:
You might argue that Beerus got that much excited because Whis stated that Beerus was itched to fight somebody when he was just a spectator looking at the fights occurring between Universe 6 and Universe 7. Does that mean normally he wouldn't enjoy himself?
WRONG
Look carefully at what Whis states:
Whis DIRECRLY references a surprise at Beerus's joyment (implying the rarity for Beerus to enjoy a fight, and a proof of this is that Beerus rarely even gets any challenge, but it depends on who gets it. For example, Beerus was utterly shocked with Goku's request of fighting Beerus, which according to Beerus it's been hundreds to millions of years since anyone ever told him such a thing, yet he still didn't enjoy himself against Goku until he went SsjG. Beerus shows Signs that he enjoys himself against Base Goku far more than when he fought SsjG despite him being itching to battle the SsjG, so the excitement of battle would be equated as between back then in BoG and when he saw the Tournament fights, yet he still enjoys himself more with Base Goku and Whis is even surprised that he's having fun ¿for some reason? despite fighting SsjG Goku earlier on in BoG arc). Whis then states that it's of no surprise that he got joyful in a battle LIKE THIS (a reference to Base Goku against Beerus, so it was apparent):
It becomes obvious that Goku in base is way too capable than anything that could ever exist before:
Beerus almost cries out of enjoyment and Goku then powers up EVEN MORE:
Even Vegito Ssj3 BoG arc cannot even make Beerus enjoy himself. Goku originally thought that Vegito cannot even beat Beerus, based on the performance Goku witnessed from Beerus while being suppressed:
It's already established that SsjG Goku BoG is Stronger Than a Hypothetical Ssj3 Vegito, and Goku even surpassed his limits as a Ssj. However Beerus was going to regret being so interested about this SsjG power and beyond until Goku even powers to further after pushing Beerus to space with a push (We already showed this before). This contradicts his reaction when he fought Base Goku and enjoyed himself so much so that he was laughing so loudly Goku even got weirded. This would suggest that Base Goku is stronger than Ssj3 Vegito.
In the next filler Arc, we see Copy Vegeta, who's exactly as strong as Vegeta, surviving Gotenks Ssj3 Causally in base form, and later, while suppressed, stomping him:
This doesn't show anything about base Goku or Vegeta being near SsjG, however it shows their utter improvement. But we do get something
Each arc seems to define the other. As we're moving on, we are directly being referenced to the same point, and this arc is no different, as it shows nothing contradicting what's been previously mentioned, and instead indirectly supporting it by proving Goku's and Vegeta's ridiculous power gains and improvements throughout the show (Goku matches Vegeta in Base and both of them are noted to be FAR stronger than before from the Universe 6 Arc by far). It's already too obvious now, but we'll continue.
In the future trunks arc, you might argue that Goku struggled with Trunks. I mean, Trunks who barely defeated Dabura!!!:
But whoever buys this, calm down, lmao. Because you're probably misunderstanding this entire situation. Here, it is ALREADY concluded that Trunks is FAR FAR stronger than when he fought Dabura, as multiple years has passed and I'll prove how he got suddenly this strong. Another thing is, Goku was suppressed which I'LL PROVE ALSO DOWN HERE.
It's true, Trunks's battle with Dabura was "intense" and "difficult" as described by himself:
When trunks first went on to fight black Goku, he was defeated with one blow, with ease, just that:
After a whole year, Trunks seem to be able to spar with black Goku proving the point that he became more powerful:
(Note: As I'll be showing later on that Goku was holding back against Trunks, it could just simply be a form of anger which allowed Trunks to fight against Goku black like that given that we witness a form of rage coming from him when He though Mai died due to Goku black. However, Goku Black was laughing and having his fun the entire battle so the point stays relevant anyways)
Beerus Even credits Trunks enough to call him decent and a good fighter based on how he matched Ssj2 Goku (who was suppressed) {Though this is not much, it does show that Trunks got stronger}:
[/spoiler]
People I'm always keen to Debate with for the sole purpose of increasing experience and joy:
Spoiler:
1.) People who depend on factual material, evidences and valid supports rather than speculation and opinions
2.) People who are ready to debate you and are capable of providing evidence on par, if not more, than me
3.) People who logically argue over things, and rightfully concede if they are wrong, without pointless resistance for the purpose of maintaining one's own beliefs. (This also applies to me)
4.) People who are blunt. Being so nice in debates is fine, but it sometimes restricts people from expressing all their knowledge and arguments. Though that doesn't mean you should be rude and disrespectful
5.) People who debate with passion. I don't stand debating with people who do not enjoy debating with me. It's fair that both me and the other debater are willing to Debate for the enjoyment of it
6.) People who don't like to drag a debate for long. Just debate for a specific set of point; Debating for a predetermined amount, and leave the debate as it is, left to be judged by others. Dragging debates pointlessly results in nothing but Agreeing to Disagree (forcefully) and sometimes flame wars, which aren't favourable results.
7.) People who argue with a powerful tone, though they must have the experience to back it up.
8.) People who show clarity. I need to understand the person I'm debating as much as possible. Though the one I'm debating, including me, should be capable of understanding the other in general, so no blaming would occur
9.) People who are capable of making worthy Rebuttals.
10.) People who are used to Debating Often.
With doing all that, My experience would increase dramatically, and my joy would jump even further. I'd like to make sure my time was never wasted while debating.
[/spoiler]
