Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[TobyS]

I'm fine with Piccolo having god ki but the chapter seemed to be more showing the boys were rusty at sensing ki was it not?

I'll be interested to see if there's any difference in powerscaling feats in the cell max fight. People whined that kuririn and base fat gotenks and 18 directly contributed.

[Hugo Boss]

I'm fine with Piccolo having god ki but the chapter seemed to be more showing the boys were rusty at sensing ki was it not?

I'll be interested to see if there's any difference in powerscaling feats in the cell max fight. People whined that kuririn and base fat gotenks and 18 directly contributed.

Yeah, nothing whatsoever implies Piccolo has god ki in this chapter. Gohan was able to sense his ki skyrocketing.

What caught my attention is that Trunks implied Piccolo wouldn’t be able to beat the androids they fought before, but perhaps Trunks was underestimating him.

[QuakingStar]

The "extra bit" from Shenlong being the ability to unlock divine ki makes sense if it's because Kami was... Well, God.

I'm beginning to believe the "extra bit" was simply Shenron forcing the Orange Piccolo form to be at the cusp of awakening instead of Piccolo having to train for years before awakening it. Piccolo implies that with it he awakened like Gohan does. So I guess Shenron ignited the God Ki that was left within Piccolo from Kami's days as being God? Either way, Orange Piccolo is still a badass form and BOTH of the things I said Piccolo would need to be on Goku's level happened. I said I think last year that he needs to get his Potential Unleashed and then get God Ki somehow... well bam here it is and I'm happy it happened because Piccolo deserves it.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

BTW, did the manga give any indication about where Gamma 1/2 and Ultimate Gohan/Piccolo compared to various forms of Goku/Vegeta prior to Orange Piccolo appearing?

I'd like to know what it (did not) have to say/show on that matter, as it's been a point of contention when it comes to scaling the Super Hero movie.

[Hugo Boss]

BTW, did the manga give any indication about where Gamma 1/2 and Ultimate Gohan/Piccolo compared to various forms of Goku/Vegeta prior to Orange Piccolo appearing?

Piccolo only says that, based on his battle against Gamma #2, the Gammas would be about on par with Goku and Vegeta. Most people interpret it as the Gammas being on Blue tier.

[TobyS]

BTW, did the manga give any indication about where Gamma 1/2 and Ultimate Gohan/Piccolo compared to various forms of Goku/Vegeta prior to Orange Piccolo appearing?

Piccolo only says that, based on his battle against Gamma #2, the Gammas would be about on par with Goku and Vegeta. Most people interpret it as the Gammas being on Blue tier.

People lowball but there's no reason he doesn't mean ui and blue E plus spirit fission as he saw them fight st will in ghose forms .

This is people trying to put cell above dabra all over again.

[Yuji]

People don't say Sign and SSBE because this isn't a manga exclusive arc. It's a movie script by Toriyama that more closely follows where the anime left off. At that point, SSB were Goku and Vegeta's strongest forms. In-universe, it makes sense for Piccolo to refer to Sign and SSBE but out of universe Blue is the more contextually appropriate comparison.

[Hugo Boss]

Most importantly is that Piccolo bases his assessment on his fight against Gamma #2, but it doesn’t seem like there is such a gigantic difference between them in that fight, which makes the Gammas being up there with UI less believable. After all, he doesn’t think Boo, 17 and 18 weren’t capable of helping if they were available, he was just worried about their exploits being used against them. So, in context, he must be speaking in broader terms.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I've heard some theorize that Gamma 1 and 2 are kinda stand-ins for Goku and Vegeta in this part of the DBS overarching story, basically acting as their counterparts in personality and power.

Gamma 2 is carefree and cocky, Gamma 1 is serious and focused.

And with the film being a direct sequel to the Broly movie primarily, it makes sense to me that these guys represent the peak of power shown by Goku and Vegeta back then: Super Saiyan Blue.

Super Saiyan Blue is the default highest level that Goku and Vegeta operate at in pretty all modern DB media that both of them are completely equal in and have consistent access to, and it helps continue DBS's trend to have more general equivalences in strength rather than distinct and meaningless differences at the "regular levels" (SSB, Golden Freeza, Gamma 1/2, Ultimate, etc.) and the "end levels" (Jiren, Broly, Beerus, etc.).

[Koitsukai]

If the retelling was its own thing, then yeah, maybe the Gammas could be ultra level, but it's a play-by-play of the movie, were UI hasn't even been mentioned.

Anyway, pre-wish Piccolo fighting an Ultra level fighter, surviving that fight and even duping the Ultra level fighter into thinking he got killed... it's already a stretch to think he can do that against a blue tier dude, let alone against the power that was pressing on fucking Gas.

[Hugo Boss]

I think the most sensible approach would be really comparing the Gammas to Goku and Vegeta from their fight against Broly, since their Blue form are much stronger in Moro saga. This is probably the level Ultimate Gohan surpassed after fighting Moro himself, as he wasn’t too far apart from Goku in the Tournament of Power.

[QuakingStar]

People don't say Sign and SSBE because this isn't a manga exclusive arc. It's a movie script by Toriyama that more closely follows where the anime left off. At that point, SSB were Goku and Vegeta's strongest forms. In-universe, it makes sense for Piccolo to refer to Sign and SSBE but out of universe Blue is the more contextually appropriate comparison.

Nope. The Broly movie and SH both acknowledge the Tournament of Power where Goku used UI Sign and UI, and Vegeta used Blue Evolved. It most certainly could include those forms, but I agree that Piccolo is referring to Blue based on both Piccolo and Gohan being within that same range with the Gammas when using Ultimate state which is Blue level of power in DBS.

[Yuji]

People don't say Sign and SSBE because this isn't a manga exclusive arc. It's a movie script by Toriyama that more closely follows where the anime left off. At that point, SSB were Goku and Vegeta's strongest forms. In-universe, it makes sense for Piccolo to refer to Sign and SSBE but out of universe Blue is the more contextually appropriate comparison.

Nope. The Broly movie and SH both acknowledge the Tournament of Power where Goku used UI Sign and UI, and Vegeta used Blue Evolved. It most certainly could include those forms, but I agree that Piccolo is referring to Blue based on both Piccolo and Gohan being within that same range with the Gammas when using Ultimate state which is Blue level of power in DBS.

Sign was far above Evo both in the anime and manga versions of the ToP, so it wouldn't make sense as a point of comparison since both Gammas are equal. Sign and Evo are relative only in the Moro arc.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I think another factor to consider is Piccolo saying Goku and Vegeta together.

While it might be reading into the line a bit much, I think it's kinda meant to imply the 2 of them considered at the same level, as he equated Gamma 1 and 2 as equal.

And given that they're Saiyans with many of the same forms, this naturally lends itself to them being equals in the same forms.

And the highest form both of them have that they're equal in? Super Saiyan Blue.

[TobyS]

I just don't buy it. He's complimenting them and assessing their threat level. If he wanted to say “as strong as a super saiyan blue” he would there's no reason to compare to an old form.

Toriyama making a vague statement isn't to align with the anime, it's to align with both, or neither.

Toyo could have also removed the line of reading it literally would only cause problems in this one version but kept it in as is.

[The Monkey King]

Nope. The Broly movie and SH both acknowledge the Tournament of Power where Goku used UI Sign and UI, and Vegeta used Blue Evolved. It most certainly could include those forms, but I agree that Piccolo is referring to Blue based on both Piccolo and Gohan being within that same range with the Gammas when using Ultimate state which is Blue level of power in DBS.

Yeah the same Broly movie that doesn't feature SSJB Kaio-ken or SSJB Evolved

We don't know how exactly the TOP played out in the movie continuity of DBS, hell in Super Hero it's straight up said that Jiren wasn't all that powerful, it's not even stated or acknowledged Goku ever tapped into UI.

As far as I'm concered in the movie continuity of DBS there's no UI Goku, SSJB Kaio-ken, SSJB Evolved, UE Vegeta.

Piccolo's line about comparing the Gammas to Goku and Vegeta works perfectly when you only acknowledge the movies wherein Piccolo sensed SSJB Goku and Vegeta fighting Broly, ergo the Gammas are Blue tier.

Anyway I don't see why anyone would care if Orange Piccolo had God ki or not when RoF showed that it doesn't really mean much of anything Power level wise nor does it do anything special except make a character go "Woah I can't sense his ki!"... wooooow

[ZombieVito]

Yeah the same Broly movie that doesn't feature SSJB Kaio-ken or SSJB Evolved

We don't know how exactly the TOP played out in the movie continuity of DBS, hell in Super Hero it's straight up said that Jiren wasn't all that powerful, it's not even stated or acknowledged Goku ever tapped into UI.

As far as I'm concered in the movie continuity of DBS there's no UI Goku, SSJB Kaio-ken, SSJB Evolved, UE Vegeta.

Piccolo's line about comparing the Gammas to Goku and Vegeta works perfectly when you only acknowledge the movies wherein Piccolo sensed SSJB Goku and Vegeta fighting Broly, ergo the Gammas are Blue tier.

Anyway I don't see why anyone would care if Orange Piccolo had God ki or not when RoF showed that it doesn't really mean much of anything Power level wise nor does it do anything special except make a character go "Woah I can't sense his ki!"... wooooow

SSB Kaioken whould have been useless against SS Broly and we don't know if Vegeta can tap to SSBE at will after the ToP. Both Kefla and Ribrianne being shown when Goku talks about the fighters he fought in the ToP is pretty telling that it went the same as the anime.

[The Monkey King]

SSB Kaioken whould have been useless against SS Broly

So Goku didn't even try to use a technique that makes him 20 times stronger against a stronger opponent? Not buying it.

and we don't know if Vegeta can tap to SSBE at will after the ToP

. Why wouldn't he be able to...? It's just a powered up SSJB

Anyway it's painfully obvious that SSJBE and SSJB kaio-ken are Toei made power ups that were absent from Toriyama's orignal drafts of DBS, therefore it's no surprise they aren't canon in the movie continuity where he has much more creative control and basically writes the entire scripts instead of giving brief outlines.

Both Kefla and Ribrianne being shown when Goku talks about the fighters he fought in the ToP is pretty telling that it went the same as the anime.

So? All it means is that he fought them.

Also I'll bring up Jiren again as the Jiren Vegeta describes in Super Hero is completely different to the Jiren from the TOP anime, how do you explain that?

[ZombieVito]

Also I'll bring up Jiren again as the Jiren Vegeta describes in Super Hero is completely different to the Jiren from the TOP anime, how do you explain that?

Jiren is not THAT much stronger than SSBKK20 Goku or SSBE Vegeta so he's not wrong. Unless you think Jiren always used like 1% of his power at all times or similar nonsense many casual fans think.

[The Monkey King]

Jiren is not THAT much stronger than SSBKK20 Goku or SSBE Vegeta so he's not wrong.

Huh? Did you watch the anime at all?

Jiren knocked Goku out of Kaio-Ken with an eye glare, he took on SSJB Kaio-ken Goku and SSJBE Vegeta at the same time casually, he overpowered a ki blast from #17, a Kamehameha from SSJB Kaio-ken Goku and a Final Flash from SSJBE Vegeta all at the same time with just his aura alone, he overpowered SSJB Kaio-Ken Goku's Spirit Bomb with an eye glare.

Are you in denial or something? He was clearly way, WAY stronger than everyone except when Goku tapped into UI.

Also there's much more to what Vegeta said about Jiren in Super Hero

That overwhelmingly powerful Jiren... In truth, when it comes to power itself, the gap between him and us is not that big

Even during the midst of a battle, he keeps both his body and spirit relaxed at all times with the exception of the one instance in which he attacks.

Meanwhile in the anime Jiren was at his strongest when he was a powerful, roaring, emotional unstable mess of a fighter who tried to kill the members of Universe 7 in the spectator stands.


This zen martial artist Vegeta is describing is not the Jiren from the DBS anime I'm sorry.

Unless you think Jiren always used like 1% of his power at all times or similar nonsense many casual fans think.

What? I don't know why you're trying to imply I'm a casual fan when the idea of the DBS anime and movies being in different continuities has clearly shaken you to your core for some reason.