"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[Kagari]

Spoiler:

that also contradicts .. the development of vegeta since it is assumed no longer as before

I’m confused. What exactly does it contradict?

Vegeta is supposed to be a family man who no longer thinks about destroying

This is funny because he's been away from his newly born kid for months now.

[TKA]

Piccolo and especially Kami care about maintaining order on a wider scale.

It was made expressly clear that Zamasu was a bad god because he cared about this stuff too. A god of destruction is a force of chaos, not someone who goes around wiping out specific worlds to maintain some unknowable arbitrary balance, like some generic JRPG villain.

If that’s what you’re looking for, maybe Dragonball Heroes is more your cup of tea, since they often try to add these grandiose motivations to characters (even though this is a series that put a rabbit man on the moon as a joke).

[ssj3kakarot]

Piccolo and especially Kami care about maintaining order on a wider scale.

It was made expressly clear that Zamasu was a bad god because he cared about this stuff too. A god of destruction is a force of chaos, not someone who goes around wiping out specific worlds to maintain some unknowable arbitrary balance, like some generic JRPG villain.

If that’s what you’re looking for, maybe Dragonball Heroes is more your cup of tea, since they often try to add these grandiose motivations to characters (even though this is a series that put a rabbit man on the moon as a joke).

I'll have you know that Monster Carrot is no laughing matter, even though Merus did fly by them without even saying hi. (*Extra page of Galactic Patrol Prisoner Saga*)

[Kinokima]

Why all this talk about God of Destruction anyway. Just because Vegeta is learning the destruction move doesn’t mean he is going to become a God just like Goku isn’t going to become an Angel just because he is learning UI.

I’m confused. What exactly does it contradict?

Vegeta is supposed to be a family man who no longer thinks about destroying

This is funny because he's been away from his newly born kid for months now.

Well she isn’t exactly newly born anymore either.

Goku and Vegeta are Saiyans so I don’t think either are supposed to be ideal husbands or fathers in human terms but the manga also only shows us the training and fighting stuff… not the slice of life stuff. So yes Vegeta trained for a long time but obviously Bulma could reach him any time if she needed him and she does not seem to be against him training. It’s also not like he was never with his family just because we don’t get to see those moments (though I wish we did a bit more).

[FiReFTW]

So its almost release time, and we have almost no spoilers at all?

[Kinokima]

So its almost release time, and we have almost no spoilers at all?

No spoilers? The entire last few pages have been spoiled

[TheSaiyanGod]

This might be both cool and character-relevant though, which would be nice! (If not cool in design—which, different people will have different opinions on—at least cool as in being a memorable chapter-ending visual.)

I think that this form is already character-relevant (and not created just for the sake of it / fanservice) just for the small build up around the Hakai at the beginning of the arc (and for the idea that has been perpetuated since the Moro arc that Vegeta is moving away from Goku's footsteps). It is the culmination of the moment he abandoned the UI path during ToP, looking to get stronger in another way. It's a power that is related to his Saiyan roots and Planet Vegeta's past, contrasting both with Granolah's character and the route that Goku is following in terms of power. And all of this is regardless of personal opinions about the design of the transformation

Even if people want to argue that there is fanservice involved (which is quite likely, just like most modern Dragon Ball material), the story is already setting a precedent for this. Fanservice by itself is not inherently bad if done in a compelling and interesting way. Broly is the most blatant example of fanservice, and Toriyama was heavily involved with him in the DBS movie.

While Vegeta is training for a job he wouldn't even be good at and then forced to wonder the universe alone with Whis and away from his family which Vegeta already had issues with leaving his family to train, let alone forever.

I'm not sure if you're referring to the manga, because Vegeta never showed interest in becoming God of Destruction, and Beerus himself never offered him the job. He is training with Beerus for the same reason he always trained with Whis, to get stronger.

[Cipher]

I think that this form is already character-relevant (and not created just for the sake of it / fanservice) just for the small build up around the Hakai at the beginning of the arc (and for the idea that has been perpetuated since the Moro arc that Vegeta is moving away from Goku's footsteps). It is the culmination of the moment he abandoned the UI path during ToP, looking to get stronger in another way. It's a power that is related to his Saiyan roots and Planet Vegeta's past, contrasting both with Granolah's character and the route that Goku is following in terms of power. And all of this is regardless of personal opinions about the design of the transformation

Even if people want to argue that there is fanservice involved (which is quite likely, just like most modern Dragon Ball material), the story is already setting a precedent for this. Fanservice by itself is not inherently bad if done in a compelling and interesting way. Broly is the most blatant example of fanservice, and Toriyama was heavily involved with him in the DBS movie.

Agreed on all accounts. Just hedging any further commentary on its role in the story/Vegeta's character for the full chapter. But yes, even via a few pages in isolation, it already seems pretty clear how it's going to pull through on various character/story elements, from the design to the dialogue.

While also just being a memorable visual cliffhanger, to your second point.

Re: Other conversations higher up about Beerus' interest in training Vegeta: I'm a bit baffled about presenting that as an issue, because it's not like it was suddenly presented as always having been there. We see the change. Vegeta's dedication to going down a different training path than Goku provided the impetus for Beerus to begin to get competitive about pupils with Whis (and Vegeta's guilt over his past last arc gave him the opportunity to instill a little hakaishin wisdom), and he was still holding the idea of actually training Vegeta at arm's length enough to deny it and just tell Vegeta he could "steal" his techniques by watching a morning workout at the beginning of the arc. Only after the brief training time skip has he been shown to be open about his investment--and as always it seems to be one part sincere, one part for his own amusement as pitting their two pupils against each other almost seems to be part of a game with Whis.

And indeed, Vegeta isn't training for the actual role (nor is Beerus asking him to take it at this point); it's just that Beerus' techniques have provided the alternate avenue forward he was looking for.

It was made expressly clear that Zamasu was a bad god because he cared about this stuff too. A god of destruction is a force of chaos, not someone who goes around wiping out specific worlds to maintain some unknowable arbitrary balance, like some generic JRPG villain.

If that’s what you’re looking for, maybe Dragonball Heroes is more your cup of tea, since they often try to add these grandiose motivations to characters (even though this is a series that put a rabbit man on the moon as a joke).

To be fair, I'm not sure even Super knows what a God of Destruction is supposed to do. In Battle of Gods it's presented as being that force-of-nature approach, but then we find out Beerus is bad at his job, and the universes with higher mortal levels have Gods of Destruction who have been ... destroying more? Destroying less? Doing something different anyway.

[TheMikado]

Piccolo and especially Kami care about maintaining order on a wider scale.

It was made expressly clear that Zamasu was a bad god because he cared about this stuff too. A god of destruction is a force of chaos, not someone who goes around wiping out specific worlds to maintain some unknowable arbitrary balance, like some generic JRPG villain.

If that’s what you’re looking for, maybe Dragonball Heroes is more your cup of tea, since they often try to add these grandiose motivations to characters (even though this is a series that put a rabbit man on the moon as a joke).

What??? The Hakaishin are specifically the opposite of the Kaiōshin who create. They had an entire Tournament of Power surrounding the discussion of "Mortal Levels" and how Beerus being bad at his job is the reason. There's a ranking system (although completely arbitrary) in place in universe that the Hakaishin know about. As stated before Piccolo would ensure he does the job he's supposed to do properly. Vegeta wouldn't care about following whatever the rules or ranking system would be.

Zamasu wasn't bad because he ???cared???, he was bad because he did bad things like murder people......

[TheMikado]

While Vegeta is training for a job he wouldn't even be good at and then forced to wonder the universe alone with Whis and away from his family which Vegeta already had issues with leaving his family to train, let alone forever.

I'm not sure if you're referring to the manga, because Vegeta never showed interest in becoming God of Destruction, and Beerus himself never offered him the job. He is training with Beerus for the same reason he always trained with Whis, to get stronger.

I'm strictly referencing that training Vegeta, just so Vegeta can get stronger is a waste of time for Beerus and training Piccolo makes much more sense if you wanted an actually effective Hakaishin. Spending time training Vegeta, who doesn't seem interested or suited for the job, so you have someone to play with or compete with Whis doesn't seem like a good use of a Hakaishin's time.

But to be fair, Beerus doing something like that seems consistent with his personality. Eventhough they all just barely dodged being erased not too long ago over Beerus doing a poor job....

[TheSaiyanGod]

Re: Other conversations higher up about Beerus' interest in training Vegeta: I'm a bit baffled about presenting that as an issue, because it's not like it was suddenly presented as always having been there.

Just to reinforce the fact that this change is seen more clearly when we contrast the interaction between Vegeta and Beerus at the beginning of ToP arc with the current one.

In the first one, Beerus is portrayed as being completely uninterested and bored with Goku and Vegeta's dynamic (where one always tries to catch the other) and his interest is piqued when Oracle Fish mentions that both would be his greatest rivals. Despite everything, Beerus ends up praising Vegeta's growth and his potential to be a candidate for GoD in another universe.

In the current one, his interest is piqued when Vegeta expresses his desire in diverging paths with Goku and the fact that he doesn't think he's suited for using Ultra Instinct (and later, Beerus himself mentions that this is also true for him and for other GoDs, which you could argue was also a factor in his interest in training Vegeta and the pupil rivalry with Whis). And that interest is strengthened when Beerus discovers that Vegeta still feels guilty about his past. In short, while Goku seems to progressively move farther away from Beerus as he approaches Whis, the dynamic between Vegeta and Beerus already existed before and they also get closer.

I'm strictly referencing that training Vegeta, just so Vegeta can get stronger is a waste of time for Beerus and training Piccolo makes much more sense if you wanted an actually effective Hakaishin. Spending time training Vegeta, who doesn't seem interested or suited for the job, so you have someone to play with or compete with Whis doesn't seem like a good use of a Hakaishin's time.

Probably, but Beerus himself never seemed willing to make his position available, or even look for a successor. In Resurrection F he even questions Goku (in a more menacing tone) if he was training with Whis in the intention of replacing him as a GoD. And that doesn't seem to be his intention right now either even with him teaching techniques used by the Gods of Destruction to Vegeta. It's different from Belmod for example, who chose Toppo as his successor and had Marcarita train him

[TKA]

What??? The Hakaishin are specifically the opposite of the Kaiōshin who create

I strongly encourage you to re-read the manga. The gods of destruction do not destroy to keep some sense of balance, or other nebulous things. They do it because they feel like it. That is the balance. Zamasu was bad because he was destroying for ideological reasons, which is the opposite of entropy. The Gods of Destruction are pure id.

Wanting someone like Piccolo in the role, or the version of Piccolo you described, betrays a misunderstanding of the text on your part. Respectfully.

[TheMikado]

What??? The Hakaishin are specifically the opposite of the Kaiōshin who create

I strongly encourage you to re-read the manga. The gods of destruction do not destroy to keep some sense of balance, or other nebulous things. They do it because they feel like it. That is the balance. Zamasu was bad because he was destroying for ideological reasons, which is the opposite of entropy. The Gods of Destruction are pure id.

Wanting someone like Piccolo in the role, or the version of Piccolo you described, betrays a misunderstanding of the text on your part. Respectfully.

Dragon Ball Super Manga: Chapter 30: The Man Called Jiren. Pages 12 & 13. Indicates there are clear roles and duties Hakaishin are expected to perform and their universes are ranked accordingly.

Maybe you should re-read it and next time bring receipts before claiming: “The gods of destruction do not destroy to keep some sense of balance, or other nebulous things. They do it because they feel like it.”

Respectfully.

[Noitsnothim]

What??? The Hakaishin are specifically the opposite of the Kaiōshin who create

I strongly encourage you to re-read the manga. The gods of destruction do not destroy to keep some sense of balance, or other nebulous things. They do it because they feel like it. That is the balance. Zamasu was bad because he was destroying for ideological reasons, which is the opposite of entropy. The Gods of Destruction are pure id.

Wanting someone like Piccolo in the role, or the version of Piccolo you described, betrays a misunderstanding of the text on your part. Respectfully.

Dragon Ball Super Manga: Chapter 30: The Man Called Jiren. Pages 12 & 13. Indicates there are clear roles and duties Hakaishin are expected to perform and their universes are ranked accordingly.

Maybe you should re-read it and next time bring receipts before claiming: “The gods of destruction do not destroy to keep some sense of balance, or other nebulous things. They do it because they feel like it.”

Respectfully.

It's just a manga not like God himself writes it don't take it so seriously

[Noitsnothim]

I doubt Vegeta will be a god of destruction (in the actual role) that's more up Freeza's alley but I really hope the no brows form isn't the actual one and just a sign of what's to come next like UI Omen

[DiscountDabi]

What??? The Hakaishin are specifically the opposite of the Kaiōshin who create

I strongly encourage you to re-read the manga. The gods of destruction do not destroy to keep some sense of balance, or other nebulous things. They do it because they feel like it. That is the balance. Zamasu was bad because he was destroying for ideological reasons, which is the opposite of entropy. The Gods of Destruction are pure id.

Wanting someone like Piccolo in the role, or the version of Piccolo you described, betrays a misunderstanding of the text on your part. Respectfully.

Dragon Ball Super Manga: Chapter 30: The Man Called Jiren. Pages 12 & 13. Indicates there are clear roles and duties Hakaishin are expected to perform and their universes are ranked accordingly.

Maybe you should re-read it and next time bring receipts before claiming: “The gods of destruction do not destroy to keep some sense of balance, or other nebulous things. They do it because they feel like it.”

Respectfully.

To be completley blunt with you I just read chapter 30 and the only thing close to mentioning the role of a destroyer is when Shin said that maybe the Mortal Level would be higher if Beerus didn't sleep so much. That coupled with King Kai in Chapter 3 regarding Beerus as a God of Chaos seems to suggest that the role of a destroyer is indiscriminate destruction of planets so that new planets may be formed by the Kaioshin.

Destroying specific planets or having any kind of idealalogical method of choosing planets to destroy does not seem to be in the job description. Hell, Beerus himself in the Moro arc says that "Every Now and Then some planet destroyer comes in and does my job for me" further emphasizing that the role of a destroyer is simpy to destroy worlds. The problem seems to come when while Beerus was asleep Frieza destroyed too many planets and while beerus is awake now he hardly goes out and destroys any planets which is why he's doing a bad job.

[TheMikado]

I strongly encourage you to re-read the manga. The gods of destruction do not destroy to keep some sense of balance, or other nebulous things. They do it because they feel like it. That is the balance. Zamasu was bad because he was destroying for ideological reasons, which is the opposite of entropy. The Gods of Destruction are pure id.

Wanting someone like Piccolo in the role, or the version of Piccolo you described, betrays a misunderstanding of the text on your part. Respectfully.

Dragon Ball Super Manga: Chapter 30: The Man Called Jiren. Pages 12 & 13. Indicates there are clear roles and duties Hakaishin are expected to perform and their universes are ranked accordingly.

Maybe you should re-read it and next time bring receipts before claiming: “The gods of destruction do not destroy to keep some sense of balance, or other nebulous things. They do it because they feel like it.”

Respectfully.

It's just a manga not like God himself writes it don't take it so seriously

Haven’t you heard? Around here the manga/Toriyama is god apparently

[TheMikado]

I strongly encourage you to re-read the manga. The gods of destruction do not destroy to keep some sense of balance, or other nebulous things. They do it because they feel like it. That is the balance. Zamasu was bad because he was destroying for ideological reasons, which is the opposite of entropy. The Gods of Destruction are pure id.

Wanting someone like Piccolo in the role, or the version of Piccolo you described, betrays a misunderstanding of the text on your part. Respectfully.

Dragon Ball Super Manga: Chapter 30: The Man Called Jiren. Pages 12 & 13. Indicates there are clear roles and duties Hakaishin are expected to perform and their universes are ranked accordingly.

Maybe you should re-read it and next time bring receipts before claiming: “The gods of destruction do not destroy to keep some sense of balance, or other nebulous things. They do it because they feel like it.”

Respectfully.

To be completley blunt with you I just read chapter 30 and the only thing close to mentioning the role of a destroyer is when Shin said that maybe the Mortal Level would be higher if Beerus didn't sleep so much. That coupled with King Kai in Chapter 3 regarding Beerus as a God of Chaos seems to suggest that the role of a destroyer is indiscriminate destruction of planets so that new planets may be formed by the Kaioshin.

Destroying specific planets or having any kind of idealalogical method of choosing planets to destroy does not seem to be in the job description. Hell, Beerus himself in the Moro arc says that "Every Now and Then some planet destroyer comes in and does my job for me" further emphasizing that the role of a destroyer is simpy to destroy worlds. The problem seems to come when while Beerus was asleep Frieza destroyed too many planets and while beerus is awake now he hardly goes out and destroys any planets which is why he's doing a bad job.

Which would make less than zero sense to wipe out universes with lower mortal levels. Randomly destroying planets and then somehow holding the hakaishin responsible for low mortal levels doesn’t even make sense in-universe. It literally CANNOT be completely random if they are supposed to also have higher mortal levels and a ranking system. Otherwise they could be destroying the planets that gave them the higher levels in the first place.

Further, Beerus being a God of Chaos is a Beerus thing, that doesn’t mean that’s what a Hakaishin is supposed to do.

[SupremeKai25]

I don't know how this is even a debate but TheMikado is absolutely right. Destroying planets randomly (because they make bad food or one of its people stole your pudding for example) is a Beerus-thing, not a general GoD-thing. And it's not exactly a secret that Beerus and Champa are trash at their job, Zeno even said he should fire them in the U6 arc because they were more busy holding tournaments and games in their name rather than actually doing their job.

Literally one of the staples of God hierarchy is that Creation and Destruction must be balanced. You can't just destroy everything randomly because that would turn the universe into a wasteland. What the Destroyers do is single out potential threats to the Gods and mortal life, and remove those threats quickly and surgically. That's why they are given the Hakai technique that erases anyone from existence.

As Gowasu told Zamasu, the Supreme Kais watch the development of mortals and nurture life, while the Destroyers intervene whenever evil threatens life and mortals.

[Tai Lung]

I’m confused. What exactly does it contradict?

Vegeta is supposed to be a family man who no longer thinks about destroying

This is funny because he's been away from his newly born kid for months now.

but he gave up going to the tournament when she born