Official DBZ 2015 Movie Power Discussion: "Resurrection F"

[Hugo Boss]

Aside from the creator changing things around, what would your In-Universe theory on this be?

For now I can't imagine anything other than Zarbon, Dodoria, Tagoma, Shisame and Piccolo having close powers. Curiously when Piccolo noticed Tagoma's ki, before Freeza's revival, he had an ominous feeling as he sensed Tagoma's terrible ki. Gohan had trouble to notice it at first, he is either not focused anymore in ki sensing or Tagoma's power doesn't seem that impressive to him. Other theories, like Shisame training/being a mutant or Piccolo getting weaker/depleting stamina as he fights, are a bit more difficult to defend in my opinion.

[supercat]

Aside from the creator changing things around, what would your In-Universe theory on this be?

For now I can't imagine anything other than Zarbon, Dodoria, Tagoma, Shisame and Piccolo having close powers. Curiously when Piccolo noticed Tagoma's ki, before Freeza's revival, he had an ominous feeling as he sensed Tagoma's terrible ki. Gohan had trouble to notice it at first, he is either not focused anymore in ki sensing or Tagoma's power doesn't seem that impressive to him. Other theories, like Shisame training/being a mutant or Piccolo getting weaker/depleting stamina as he fights, are a bit more difficult to defend in my opinion.

Piccolo may just be more sensitive and adept at picking up Ki than Gohan (especially subtle ones). This ability could be a result of his fusion with Kami. Although I can't recall or think of any references, my guess would be it comes from Kami's experience as the former guardian. After encountering all the crazy villains up until now, it seems pretty unlikely that Piccolo would get an ominous feeling simply due to Tagoma's power. In the unlikely case that he found the power larger than his own, he must know that Goku, Gohan, and Vegeta can all easily dispatch an enemy of that tier. I think it boils back down to his sensitivity to his surroundings and his ability to sense subtle changes --again, possibly inherited from Kami. This is also possibly coupled with the knowledge to pick up on any evil or ominous presence a Ki may be giving off, as well as having the keen sense to realize a potential threat may be on its way.

Again, going only with In-Universe theories, what do you think may have caused Piccolo's power to drop so much? I can definitely agree with you that stamina dropping doesn't really make sense and I had already sort of explained this in an earlier post. However, don't you think it would be at least somewhat practical for Shisami who is on Zarbon level to at least get some training in before challenging the Z-Senshi? Especially given the fact that the majority are at least far above the Ginyu Force (who completely outshine Zarbon / Dodoria) at this point?

Also, assuming Krillin stayed at 75,000 or increased during the Cell / Buu arc, and dropped back down to somewhere around there, he can now trash Piccolo?

I mean, personally, I still find Piccolo dropping down to Zarbon tier extremely difficult to comprehend.

[Hugo Boss]

Piccolo may just be more sensitive and adept at picking up Ki than Gohan (especially subtle ones). This ability could be a result of his fusion with Kami. Although I can't recall or think of any references, my guess would be it comes from Kami's experience as the former guardian. After encountering all the crazy villains up until now, it seems pretty unlikely that Piccolo would get an ominous feeling simply due to Tagoma's power. In the unlikely case that he found the power larger than his own, he must know that Goku, Gohan, and Vegeta can all easily dispatch an enemy of that tier. I think it boils back down to his sensitivity to his surroundings and his ability to sense subtle changes --again, possibly inherited from Kami. This is also possibly coupled with the knowledge to pick up on any evil or ominous presence a Ki may be giving off, as well as having the keen sense to realize a potential threat may be on its way.

Hmm actually this seems better than I have thought, a good way to interpret that scene.

Again, going only with In-Universe theories, what do you think may have caused Piccolo's power to drop so much? I can definitely agree with you that stamina dropping doesn't really make sense and I had already sort of explained this in an earlier post. However, don't you think it would be at least somewhat practical for Shisami who is on Zarbon level to at least get some training in before challenging the Z-Senshi? Especially given the fact that the majority are at least far above the Ginyu Force (who completely outshine Zarbon / Dodoria) at this point?

Also, assuming Krillin stayed at 75,000 or increased during the Cell / Buu arc, and dropped back down to somewhere around there, he can now trash Piccolo?

I mean, personally, I still find Piccolo dropping down to Zarbon tier extremely difficult to comprehend.

In fact, I don't think Piccolo's power droped. The story doesn't give any indication about him getting weaker over the years, that kind of issue unfortunately belongs to Gohan, though it's totally in character for him neglecting his training.

It is just that I think the lack of information about Shisame getting more power strongly implies he isn't any different from the beginning of the movie, despite those reasons we've discussed. So I honestly can't defend any plausible in-universe-theory of any side. I will stick with the new foundation, things have changed.

[supercat]

Piccolo may just be more sensitive and adept at picking up Ki than Gohan (especially subtle ones). This ability could be a result of his fusion with Kami. Although I can't recall or think of any references, my guess would be it comes from Kami's experience as the former guardian. After encountering all the crazy villains up until now, it seems pretty unlikely that Piccolo would get an ominous feeling simply due to Tagoma's power. In the unlikely case that he found the power larger than his own, he must know that Goku, Gohan, and Vegeta can all easily dispatch an enemy of that tier. I think it boils back down to his sensitivity to his surroundings and his ability to sense subtle changes --again, possibly inherited from Kami. This is also possibly coupled with the knowledge to pick up on any evil or ominous presence a Ki may be giving off, as well as having the keen sense to realize a potential threat may be on its way.

Hmm actually this seems better than I have thought, a good way to interpret that scene.

Again, going only with In-Universe theories, what do you think may have caused Piccolo's power to drop so much? I can definitely agree with you that stamina dropping doesn't really make sense and I had already sort of explained this in an earlier post. However, don't you think it would be at least somewhat practical for Shisami who is on Zarbon level to at least get some training in before challenging the Z-Senshi? Especially given the fact that the majority are at least far above the Ginyu Force (who completely outshine Zarbon / Dodoria) at this point?

Also, assuming Krillin stayed at 75,000 or increased during the Cell / Buu arc, and dropped back down to somewhere around there, he can now trash Piccolo?

I mean, personally, I still find Piccolo dropping down to Zarbon tier extremely difficult to comprehend.

In fact, I don't think Piccolo's power droped. The story doesn't give any indication about him getting weaker over the years, that kind of issue unfortunately belongs to Gohan, though it's totally in character for him neglecting his training.

It is just that I think the lack of information about Shisame getting more power strongly implies he isn't any different from the beginning of the movie, despite those reasons we've discussed. So I honestly can't defend any plausible in-universe-theory of any side. I will stick with the new foundation, things have changed.

Well the whole concept of training was not really emphasized. We only know that Frieza trained because he mentioned he would, and aside from that there is not much else that touches on this. I completely agree with you that there certainly is a lack of information regarding Shisami obtaining more power, so I can see why people may simply accept the fact that things have changed. However, if we strictly stick to in-universe theories (which always seems to make things a lot more interesting) then the following points not only strongly imply Shisami had gained a massive power increase but they also shed light on the fallacies of the other theories:

-Gohan had to turn SSJ to defeat Shisami (I don't care how much Gohan has regressed.. There is no way he needs to exert that much energy to take down a Zarbon level enemy).

-Piccolo apparently kept up with his training, therefore it is implied he should at least be around Cell Jr. level. Additionally, the lack of anything suggesting that he regressed shows that he most likely retained at least the majority of his power if not even benefited from modest improvements from light training. However, despite all this, he was having a difficult time with Shisami. Additionally, I don't subscribe to the theory that he was holding back or was hit with a sneak attack. As I mentioned in several other posts, the Z-Senshi at this point have the ability to raise and lower their Ki spontaneously and can most certainly leverage this ability to their advantage -- especially against significantly weaker foes (demonstrated in Goku's fight with the Ginyu Force). However, giving the sneaking up theory the benefit of doubt here, and assuming Shisami managed to land one punch, that would be as far as he gets. Piccolo would instantly raise his Ki and effortlessly put a Zarbon level enemy in his place with the blink of an eye. However, instead, he uses his Makankosappo (an attack he would most likely reserve as a finisher against a powerful enemy), which ends up failing.

-If being tired was such a make or break component, then Frieza's empire could have had a chance to overthrow him. The grunts would simply tire Frieza (who was far below Piccolo / Cell Jr. level before training) out, and the elites would knock him out via sneak attack. Therefore, much like the whole concept of being hit while being suppressed theory, the validity behind this theory also doesn't have much concrete structure and/or past references that suggest it being a likely scenario.

-Frieza's men having knowledge on Son Goku and his friends also probably means they are aware of the fact that Son Goku has several friends who are at the very least above the Ginyu Force, and some even above Frieza himself (prior to training). With this knowledge, it's only logical that a Zarbon level fighter would train before even attempting to challenge the Z-Senshi. We all know how Zarbon compares to the Ginyu Force, so I'm sure Shisami is well aware of his place on the battlefield against enemies of that level.

[Hugo Boss]

Well the whole concept of training was not really emphasized. We only know that Freeza trained because he mentioned he would, and aside from that there is not much else that touches on this.

But at least we have something about Freeza, nothing about Shisame. That's why I think Shisame's theory isn't better than the others, it has its own fallacy.

-Gohan had to turn SSJ to defeat Shisami (I don't care how much Gohan has regressed.. There is no way he needs to exert that much energy to take down a Zarbon level enemy).

To me it seems a suggestion that Base Gohan can't easily defeat Piccolo without Super Saiyan.

-Frieza's men having knowledge on Son Goku and his friends also probably means they are aware of the fact that Son Goku has several friends who are at the very least above the Ginyu Force, and some even above Freeza himself (prior to training). With this knowledge, it's only logical that a Zarbon level fighter would train before even attempting to challenge the Z-Senshi. We all know how Zarbon compares to the Ginyu Force, so I'm sure Shisami is well aware of his place on the battlefield against enemies of that level.

I wouldn't be so sure that Freeza's remmants had that kind of concern. Instead of training to conquer other planets, they tried to revive Freeza and weren't exactly willing to go to Earth with him (Tagoma was honest in that regard). Given that Sorbet was also surprised when the fight started, it doesn't seem to me they were well aware of the Z-Fighters' strength. And, even if they were, it's still a better option to leave everything on Freeza's shoulders, since he is said to be such a prodigy.

[supercat]

Well the whole concept of training was not really emphasized. We only know that Freeza trained because he mentioned he would, and aside from that there is not much else that touches on this.

But at least we have something about Freeza, nothing about Shisame. That's why I think Shisame's theory isn't better than the others, it has its own fallacy.

-Gohan had to turn SSJ to defeat Shisami (I don't care how much Gohan has regressed.. There is no way he needs to exert that much energy to take down a Zarbon level enemy).

To me it seems a suggestion that Base Gohan can't easily defeat Piccolo without Super Saiyan.

-Frieza's men having knowledge on Son Goku and his friends also probably means they are aware of the fact that Son Goku has several friends who are at the very least above the Ginyu Force, and some even above Freeza himself (prior to training). With this knowledge, it's only logical that a Zarbon level fighter would train before even attempting to challenge the Z-Senshi. We all know how Zarbon compares to the Ginyu Force, so I'm sure Shisami is well aware of his place on the battlefield against enemies of that level.

I wouldn't be so sure that Freeza's remmants had that kind of concern. Instead of training to conquer other planets, they tried to revive Freeza and weren't exactly willing to go to Earth with him (Tagoma was honest in that regard). Given that Sorbet was also surprised when the fight started, it doesn't seem to me they were well aware of the Z-Fighters' strength. And, even if they were, it's still a better option to leave everything on Freeza's shoulders, since he is said to be such a prodigy.

To me, if Base Gohan needs SSJ to defeat Shisami, then there is a good chance that he cannot accomplish the same feat in base form. With that in mind, are you saying Base Gohan is now also around the same realm of power as Zarbon / Dodoria? From an in-universe standpoint, it seems so much more plausible that Shisami is indeed Cell Jr. level, for Gohan to have to power up to SSJ.

I feel Frieza's men having precise knowledge on the Z-Fighters ability is debatable and can go either way. As you said, Sorbet being surprised could be an indicator that they had no idea where Son Goku's friends stood in terms of power. With that being said, wasn't Sorbet surprised that even Shisami was defeated? This defeat was at the hands of a Super Saiyan. If Shisami was Zarbon level, then at the very least, I feel Sorbet should understand without any surprise that a defeat like this was bound to happen. I mean he knows Frieza went down to Super Saiyans in the past.. Why would he be so surprised or scared that a fighter on par with Zarbon / Dodoria couldn't take a Super Saiyan down?

As for relying on Frieza to do all the work, that one can also go both ways. It's more than likely that they intended on Frieza taking on Son Goku and the other top tiered Z-Fighters, but it did appear that the grunts / Shisami were also intending on fighting while Frieza was busy taking on Son Goku.

[Kamiccolo9]

Didn't the native Japanese speakers here already tell us that the whole "Shisami is Zarbon level" thing refers only to his position in the organization, and was not referring to his power? Granted, I've been gone a while, but I'm almost certain that Kei at least has said that.

[supercat]

Didn't the native Japanese speakers here already tell us that the whole "Shisami is Zarbon level" thing refers only to his position in the organization, and was not referring to his power? Granted, I've been gone a while, but I'm almost certain that Kei at least has said that.

That would make a lot of sense. However, Tagoma was quickly taken down by First Form Frieza (before training). Therefore, even if the comparison were based on other aspects such as rank, leadership, etc, Tagoma would most likely still be well below 530,000.

[Kamiccolo9]

Didn't the native Japanese speakers here already tell us that the whole "Shisami is Zarbon level" thing refers only to his position in the organization, and was not referring to his power? Granted, I've been gone a while, but I'm almost certain that Kei at least has said that.

That would make a lot of sense. However, Tagoma was quickly taken down by First Form Freeza (before training). Therefore, even if the comparison were based on other aspects such as rank, leadership, etc, Tagoma would most likely still be well below 530,000.

That's Tagoma, though. Not Shisami.

[supercat]

Didn't the native Japanese speakers here already tell us that the whole "Shisami is Zarbon level" thing refers only to his position in the organization, and was not referring to his power? Granted, I've been gone a while, but I'm almost certain that Kei at least has said that.

That would make a lot of sense. However, Tagoma was quickly taken down by First Form Freeza (before training). Therefore, even if the comparison were based on other aspects such as rank, leadership, etc, Tagoma would most likely still be well below 530,000.

That's Tagoma, though. Not Shisami.

It could certainly be a possibility that Shisami was above Tagoma, but both of them were implied to be more or less around the same level. It would, however, answer a lot of questions here if Shisami was in fact far superior to Tagoma, and the comparison wasn't in reference to strength.

[Doctor.]

Tagoma and Shisami seemed to have some kind of rivalry going on from what that 26 min leaked footage showed us a few weeks back, not to mention Sorbet chose Tagoma over Shisami as a body-guard.

[Kamiccolo9]

It could certainly be a possibility that Shisami was above Tagoma, but both of them were implied to be more or less around the same level. It would, however, answer a lot of questions here if Shisami was in fact far superior to Tagoma, and the comparison wasn't in reference to strength.

That's what I'm saying. From what I read in the movie thread from a native Japanese speaker who saw the movie, the term they used here referred to position, not strength.

[dbzfan7]

By the way Kami that 1.3 million statement turned out to be real script wise. You got your wish .

[Hugo Boss]

With that being said, wasn't Sorbet surprised that even Shisami was defeated? This defeat was at the hands of a Super Saiyan. If Shisami was Zarbon level, then at the very least, I feel Sorbet should understand without any surprise that a defeat like this was bound to happen. I mean he knows Freeza went down to Super Saiyans in the past.. Why would he be so surprised or scared that a fighter on par with Zarbon / Dodoria couldn't take a Super Saiyan down?

Sorbet was surprised that the army was easily handled by the Z-Fighters, that's the moment where Freeza says Gohan could do it alone if he felt like, before Freeza knowing Gohan could transform.

As for relying on Freeza to do all the work, that one can also go both ways. It's more than likely that they intended on Freeza taking on Son Goku and the other top tiered Z-Fighters, but it did appear that the grunts / Shisami were also intending on fighting while Freeza was busy taking on Son Goku.

Even so, Sorbet was confident that Goku and Vegeta were the only troublesome opponents.

[The Monkey King]

Looking at the scene where Freeza destroys Earth it looks like he just pushes on the ground... then it blows up.

Man Freeza had not 1 but 2 pretty solid back up plans, props to him.

[Lord Beerus]

Looking at the scene where Freeza destroys Earth it looks like he just pushes on the ground... then it blows up.

Man Freeza had not 1 but 2 pretty solid back up plans, props to him.

If Whis didn't have the ability to rewind, Freeza would have won.

[saunasolmu]

Looking at the scene where Freeza destroys Earth it looks like he just pushes on the ground... then it blows up.

Man Freeza had not 1 but 2 pretty solid back up plans, props to him.

If Whis didn't have the ability to rewind, Freeza would have won.

Goku's win was just as cheap as Freeza's would've been.

[Polyphase Avatron]

Having actually watched the scene, it seemed like Goku's attack gave Freeza plenty of time to destroy the Earth anyway, Freeza just didn't do it the second time because he was too shocked by Goku attacking him.

[dbzfan7]

Looking at the scene where Freeza destroys Earth it looks like he just pushes on the ground... then it blows up.

Man Freeza had not 1 but 2 pretty solid back up plans, props to him.

If Whis didn't have the ability to rewind, Freeza would have won.

And is then promptly killed by Beerus, Whis, or SSGSS Goku who lived. Then the Namek balls fix everything.

[Lord Beerus]

Looking at the scene where Freeza destroys Earth it looks like he just pushes on the ground... then it blows up.

Man Freeza had not 1 but 2 pretty solid back up plans, props to him.

If Whis didn't have the ability to rewind, Freeza would have won.

And is then promptly killed by Beerus, Whis, or SSGSS Goku who lived. Then the Namek balls fix everything.

Forget about the Namekian Dragon Balls. Damn, Plan B Deus Ex Machina.