Official DBZ 2015 Movie Power Discussion: "Resurrection F"

[Hitiro]

Shisami alone could have recruited more powerful warriors if he's that powerful. There would be no resistance as they could always send him in to end them, and recruit any warriors who are strong.

You assume there are any warriors more powerful than the general fodder left? The only wordly beings that were considered powerful were extremely rare. For all we know, apart from Shisami, the rest of the universe are in the 1,000's at best. The only races confirmed to exceed the thousands were the Saiyan's using their Oozaru forms and Warrior Type Namekian's. All other characters are more than likely unique like Kuririn, Tenshinhan and Yamcha now are for their race.

[dbzfan7]

Shisami alone could have recruited more powerful warriors if he's that powerful. There would be no resistance as they could always send him in to end them, and recruit any warriors who are strong.

You assume there are any warriors more powerful than the general fodder left? The only wordly beings that were considered powerful were extremely rare. For all we know, apart from Shisami, the rest of the universe are in the 1,000's at best.

Considering if Tagoma and Shisami can appear, why not? Same with Abo and Cado. All the time we see more and more powerful people. Freeza was literally going to do the same thing anyways after all was said and done. Besides if the universe is all fodder, then recruit as much fodder to overcome the other fodder. Recruit an army to overcome the planets. Any person who can fight back can be forcibly recruited by Shisami. Shisami can oversee the conquering of worlds if he's this powerful.

[Hitiro]

Shisami alone could have recruited more powerful warriors if he's that powerful. There would be no resistance as they could always send him in to end them, and recruit any warriors who are strong.

You assume there are any warriors more powerful than the general fodder left? The only wordly beings that were considered powerful were extremely rare. For all we know, apart from Shisami, the rest of the universe are in the 1,000's at best.

Considering if Tagoma and Shisami can appear, why not? Same with Abo and Cado. All the time we see more and more powerful people. Freeza was literally going to do the same thing anyways after all was said and done. Besides if the universe is all fodder, then recruit as much fodder to overcome the other fodder. Recruit an army to overcome the planets. Any person who can fight back can be forcibly recruited by Shisami. Shisami can oversee the conquering of worlds if he's this powerful.

Outside the Saiyan's and the Namekian's we've had literally 16 people in the entire universe above the 1,000's. I'm not saying there aren't more out there. But the chances of them seems to be incredibly low considering the majority served under Freeza and died. Freeza has had 20-30 years of conquering planets under his belt and he only ended up with 12 warriors above the 1,000's. The only ones that didn't serve under him were Cold, Yakon and Pui Pui. And to be honest Pui Pui may not even be above the 1,000's. I don't think Guldo was either but I included him too. Going from 12 people managing the army with varying battle powers(2 of which may have entered the army after Freeza died.) to a measly 2 is going to cause a lot of problems.

[dbzfan7]

Outside the Saiyan's and the Namekian's we've had literally 16 people in the entire universe above the 1,000's. I'm not saying there aren't more out there. But the chances of them seems to be incredibly low considering the majority served under Freeza and died. Freeza has had 20-30 years of conquering planets under his belt and he only ended up with 12 warriors above the 1,000's. The only ones that didn't serve under him were Cold, Yakon and Pui Pui. And to be honest Pui Pui may not even be above the 1,000's. I don't think Guldo was either but I included him too. Going from 12 people managing the army with varying battle powers(2 of which may have entered the army after Freeza died.) to a measly 2 is going to cause a lot of problems.

The universe is a huge place. All the time more powerful people are discovered. If more powerful people aren't discovered, they're created. This happens all the time. If all the rebels were in the 1000's, then get even more of them on your side. The rebels don't have a chance if they're outnumbered. Shisami alone can force people to join if he's this powerful already. Shisami could even front line every invasion or even Tagoma could and they'd win every time. If anyone stronger than Tagoma shows up, then Shisami takes them down. So either way they get more vast mooks, or more powerful minions if they turn up. Either way the army gets bigger, and Freeza is useless.

[supercat]

Outside the Saiyan's and the Namekian's we've had literally 16 people in the entire universe above the 1,000's. I'm not saying there aren't more out there. But the chances of them seems to be incredibly low considering the majority served under Freeza and died. Freeza has had 20-30 years of conquering planets under his belt and he only ended up with 12 warriors above the 1,000's. The only ones that didn't serve under him were Cold, Yakon and Pui Pui. And to be honest Pui Pui may not even be above the 1,000's. I don't think Guldo was either but I included him too. Going from 12 people managing the army with varying battle powers(2 of which may have entered the army after Freeza died.) to a measly 2 is going to cause a lot of problems.

The universe is a huge place. All the time more powerful people are discovered. If more powerful people aren't discovered, they're created. This happens all the time. If all the rebels were in the 1000's, then get even more of them on your side. The rebels don't have a chance if they're outnumbered. Shisami alone can force people to join if he's this powerful already. Shisami could even front line every invasion or even Tagoma could and they'd win every time. If anyone stronger than Tagoma shows up, then Shisami takes them down. So either way they get more vast mooks, or more powerful minions if they turn up. Either way the army gets bigger, and Freeza is useless.

Firstly, just because there is a theory of Shisami starting off with a power higher than Frieza's, does not mean Tagoma is also theorized to be at or around that same level. Based on how easily First Form Frieza (before training) was able to finish off Tagoma, we can assume that he is in fact weaker than 530,000.

As for Shisami, he may have the brute strength and force, but may have lacked the same leadership mentality, or the same desire to conquer and rule as Frieza. As I mentioned in my earlier posts, though we can't be certain, it could simply be that Shisami was willing to serve as the muscles of the organization. Taking into consideration that Sorbet was higher in position than Shisami, despite the latter having more power, it is likely an implication that Shisami is not one to fight for leadership. This wouldn't be the first time a stronger fighter yields a higher rank or position to a weaker being. Goku yielding to King Kai and Eastern Kaioshin is an example of the more superior fighter yielding to far weaker beings when clearly the stronger fighter can muscle their way to being an overseer of the universe. Yes, this comparison only loosely serves as an analogy, but seeing as how Shisami (who most likely was above Sorbet in power), submitted to Sorbet, it wouldn't surprise me that the guy is not cut out for a leadership role.

In regards to wishing Frieza back for his power, it's not like he went around personally destroying every single being who opposed the organization. Also, as I've indicated in earlier posts, Shisami can't be at each and every place that is suffering some form of resistance. Even if they leveraged his amazing power to subdue a particular planet, the day to day tasks of maintaining what they've managed to conquer would have to be carried out by the regular grunts. It seems like Frieza had other means of formulating a powerful organization other than his own individual power -- assets and skills that both Shisami and Sorbet probably lacked. Plus, I think I recall hearing somewhere that the organization is not what it once was, and that it was falling apart.

Lastly, Shisami could have been weaker than Frieza during the time when the latter was ruling. It could be that he simply trained after Frieza's demise, managing to increase his battle power.

[dbzfan7]

Outside the Saiyan's and the Namekian's we've had literally 16 people in the entire universe above the 1,000's. I'm not saying there aren't more out there. But the chances of them seems to be incredibly low considering the majority served under Freeza and died. Freeza has had 20-30 years of conquering planets under his belt and he only ended up with 12 warriors above the 1,000's. The only ones that didn't serve under him were Cold, Yakon and Pui Pui. And to be honest Pui Pui may not even be above the 1,000's. I don't think Guldo was either but I included him too. Going from 12 people managing the army with varying battle powers(2 of which may have entered the army after Freeza died.) to a measly 2 is going to cause a lot of problems.

The universe is a huge place. All the time more powerful people are discovered. If more powerful people aren't discovered, they're created. This happens all the time. If all the rebels were in the 1000's, then get even more of them on your side. The rebels don't have a chance if they're outnumbered. Shisami alone can force people to join if he's this powerful already. Shisami could even front line every invasion or even Tagoma could and they'd win every time. If anyone stronger than Tagoma shows up, then Shisami takes them down. So either way they get more vast mooks, or more powerful minions if they turn up. Either way the army gets bigger, and Freeza is useless.

Firstly, just because there is a theory of Shisami starting off with a power higher than Freeza's, does not mean Tagoma is also theorized to be at or around that same level. Based on how easily First Form Freeza (before training) was able to finish off Tagoma, we can assume that he is in fact weaker than 530,000.

As for Shisami, he may have the brute strength and force, but may have lacked the same leadership mentality, or the same desire to conquer and rule as Freeza. As I mentioned in my earlier posts, though we can't be certain, it could simply be that Shisami was willing to serve as the muscles of the organization. Assuming Sorbet was higher in position than Shisami, despite the latter having more power, it is an implication that Shisami is not one to fight for leadership. This wouldn't be the first time a stronger fighter yields a higher rank or position to a weaker being. Goku yielding to King Kai and Eastern Kaioshin is an example of the more superior fighter yielding to far weaker beings when clearly the stronger fighter can muscle their way to being an overseer of the universe. Yes, this comparison only loosely serves as an analogy, but seeing as how Shisami (who most likely was above Sorbet in power), submitted to Sorbet, it wouldn't surprise me that the guy is not cut out for a leadership role. Plus, even in the past, it's not like Freeza went around personally destroying every single being who opposed the organization. Also, as I've indicated in earlier posts, Shisami can't be at every single place that is suffering some form of resistance. Even if they leveraged his amazing power to subdue a particular planet, the day to day tasks of maintaining what they've managed to conquer would have to be carried out by the regular grunts. It seems like Freeza had other means of formulating a powerful organization other than his own individual power -- assets and skills that both Shisami and Sorbet probably lacked. Plus, I think I recall hearing somewhere that the organization is not what it once was, and that it was falling apart.

Lastly, Shisami could have been weaker than Freeza during the time when the latter was ruling. It could be that he simply trained after Freeza's demise, managing to increase his battle power.

I didn't say Tagoma was that strong, only that he has a higher than average power.

Freeza ruled through fear and power. You either serve him or die. That is how it was. He's a cruel dictator. All Shisami has to do is be that power figure. The kind who will terminate those who go against the organization. He also seemingly has the power to subjugate any world, and force more recruits, just like Freeza does. There is no crap about leadership through democratic or thoughtful means. It's serve Freeza or die. Freeza is a thug and land shark. Freeza is the kind of person who will kill someone just for failing him once, even if they have accomplished stuff for his empire. Freeza rules through fear. Shisami could simply be the next figure as he just needs to flaunt his power, blow up some worlds, and that's it. Even if he took orders, he still has Freeza's raw power which would be enough to subjugate worlds. That's all Freeza used too, power and fear.

Then we have another super prodigy. Least Abo & Cado had years of time to improve, apparently random bull man also only needs 4 month's.

[supercat]

While it may have been the case that Frieza ruled through power and fear, we also have to remember Sorbet was apparently the one who was seemingly in charge after Freeza's departure. If the organization only submitted to a being simply due to their power, then I doubt Sorbet could have reached the position he was in. Given the fact that Shisami was not the Freeza's direct successor, we can get an implication that there were other qualities that Sorbet possessed that helped him obtain his position. Unless, however, you believe Sorbet was the strongest member left in the organization after Freeza left.

There are many variables to consider here. For one, Shisami could have simply trained and obtained an amazing battle power all those years Freeza was dead (not during the 4 months Freeza spent training). Therefore, we may even able to assume that power was something that that Shisami gained through hard work over the years (again after Freeza's demise). Furthermore, even if we assume Shisami does increase his battle power / ki over the years, it does not mean we can expect to see a proportionate improvement in his other qualities (leadership, rank, strategic prowess).

I understand Frieza may have ruled through power and fear, but that didn't necessarily mean he went around destroying every single being who opposed his organization. I think that was a task reserved for some of the grunts. Neither Shiami nor Frieza can be at every single place that is crawling with opposition. Again, I can't find a specific reference, but I think I recall hearing the organization was falling apart and it's not what it once was. If that is in fact the case, I can see how collectively they would have a hard time fighting off and suppressing resistance.

If you want another analogy that is somewhat applicable here, just remember that Fat Buu had enough power to subdue quite a few planets, yet he was being ordered around by Bibidi, and to an extent Babidi. Shisami could be another being who may have had the power to rule, but not necessarily the right mentality and/or brains.

[dbzfan7]

While it may have been the case that Freeza ruled through power and fear, we also have to remember Sorbet was apparently the one who was seemingly in charge after Freeza's departure. If the organization only submitted to a being simply due to their power, then I doubt Sorbet could have reached the position he was in. Given the fact that Shisami was not the Freeza's direct successor, we can get an implication that there were other qualities that Sorbet possessed that helped him obtain his position. Unless, however, you believe Sorbet was the strongest member left in the organization after Freeza left.

There are many variables to consider here. For one, Shisami could have simply trained and obtained an amazing battle power all those years Freeza was dead (not during the 4 months Freeza spent training). Therefore, we may even able to assume that power was something that that Shisami gained through hard work over the years (again after Freeza's demise). Furthermore, even if we assume Shisami does increase his battle power / ki over the years, it does not mean we can expect to see a proportionate improvement in his other qualities (leadership, rank, strategic prowess).

I understand Freeza may have ruled through power and fear, but that didn't necessarily mean he went around destroying every single being who opposed his organization. I think that was a task reserved for some of the grunts. Neither Shiami nor Freeza can be at every single place that is crawling with opposition. Again, I can't find a specific reference, but I think I recall hearing the organization was falling apart and it's not what it once was. If that is in fact the case, I can see how collectively they would have a hard time fighting off and suppressing resistance.

If you want another analogy that is somewhat applicable here, just remember that Fat Buu had enough power to subdue quite a few planets, yet he was being ordered around by Bibidi, and to an extent Babidi. Shisami could be another being who may have had the power to rule, but not necessarily the right mentality and/or brains.

He does have a god killing ring. Also there's nothing to say Shisami is even that powerful to begin with, that's just something some people made up to try and rationalize thoughtless writing.

Doesn't matter if he amassed a lot of power even before Freeza's revival. If he has the power, he can rule as Freeza would. All Freeza does is order people to do shit, and kills them if they fail. If they desert they also are killed. There would be no rebellions if Shisami was superior to Freeza. Not only that but the army is garbage because they're all supposed to be nothing special. No one knew Freeza would get stronger, so if Shisami was already superior to Freeza, then what the hell is Freeza gonna do? Freeza would just do the same thing he always does. Something Shisami can do possibly. That or he's weaker and is a prodigy too somehow.

That's exactly what Freeza did. He killed all those who opposed him. There is no leadership shit. He just simply forced his way from his sheer immense power. He doesn't do diplomacy. He's a thug. There job is to conquer worlds. If Shisami is powerful, you get him to do it all which he could single handedly, and have him salvage any noteworthy warriors. The story tells us though that Shisami is not that powerful as him being Freeza tier would leave the army in an outstanding condition. He and Shisami are compared to Dodoria and Zarbon. Hence how easily he died. Sorbet says they're talented warriors on par with Zarbon and Dodoria. I doubt that's just rank.

Babidi had threatened to seal Boo away if he didn't listen. The same can likely be said about Bidbidi. So Boo feared he'd be put away, and listened to the wizards.

[supercat]

While it may have been the case that Freeza ruled through power and fear, we also have to remember Sorbet was apparently the one who was seemingly in charge after Freeza's departure. If the organization only submitted to a being simply due to their power, then I doubt Sorbet could have reached the position he was in. Given the fact that Shisami was not the Freeza's direct successor, we can get an implication that there were other qualities that Sorbet possessed that helped him obtain his position. Unless, however, you believe Sorbet was the strongest member left in the organization after Freeza left.

There are many variables to consider here. For one, Shisami could have simply trained and obtained an amazing battle power all those years Freeza was dead (not during the 4 months Freeza spent training). Therefore, we may even able to assume that power was something that that Shisami gained through hard work over the years (again after Freeza's demise). Furthermore, even if we assume Shisami does increase his battle power / ki over the years, it does not mean we can expect to see a proportionate improvement in his other qualities (leadership, rank, strategic prowess).

I understand Freeza may have ruled through power and fear, but that didn't necessarily mean he went around destroying every single being who opposed his organization. I think that was a task reserved for some of the grunts. Neither Shiami nor Freeza can be at every single place that is crawling with opposition. Again, I can't find a specific reference, but I think I recall hearing the organization was falling apart and it's not what it once was. If that is in fact the case, I can see how collectively they would have a hard time fighting off and suppressing resistance.

If you want another analogy that is somewhat applicable here, just remember that Fat Buu had enough power to subdue quite a few planets, yet he was being ordered around by Bibidi, and to an extent Babidi. Shisami could be another being who may have had the power to rule, but not necessarily the right mentality and/or brains.

He does have a god killing ring. Also there's nothing to say Shisami is even that powerful to begin with, that's just something some people made up to try and rationalize thoughtless writing.

Doesn't matter if he amassed a lot of power even before Freeza's revival. If he has the power, he can rule as Freeza would. All Freeza does is order people to do shit, and kills them if they fail. If they desert they also are killed. There would be no rebellions if Shisami was superior to Freeza. Not only that but the army is garbage because they're all supposed to be nothing special. No one knew Freeza would get stronger, so if Shisami was already superior to Freeza, then what the hell is Freeza gonna do? Freeza would just do the same thing he always does. Something Shisami can do possibly. That or he's weaker and is a prodigy too somehow.

That's exactly what Freeza did. He killed all those who opposed him. There is no leadership shit. He just simply forced his way from his sheer immense power. He doesn't do diplomacy. He's a thug. There job is to conquer worlds. If Shisami is powerful, you get him to do it all which he could single handedly, and have him salvage any noteworthy warriors. The story tells us though that Shisami is not that powerful as him being Freeza tier would leave the army in an outstanding condition. He and Shisami are compared to Dodoria and Zarbon. Hence how easily he died. Sorbet says they're talented warriors on par with Zarbon and Dodoria. I doubt that's just rank.

Babidi had threatened to seal Boo away if he didn't listen. The same can likely be said about Bidbidi. So Boo feared he'd be put away, and listened to the wizards.

I don't think that Sorbet's ring is what brought him up to his position.

Both theories (Shisami starting off Piccolo / Cell Jr. tier or Shisami training to reach that tier) have points of credibility, but yes, the theory of Shisami starting off Piccolo / Cell Jr. tier has its own version of fallacies and points of uncertainty. Assuming you're right and Frieza ruled through power and fear, we can still assume Shisami trained alongside Frieza to reach Piccolo / Cell Jr. tier. I don't think a Zarbon tier fighter reaching the level of Piccolo / Cell Jr. would necessarily be considered a prodigy. Does it seem a bit far-fetched? Yes, definitely. However, by this point, we've seen some incredible power increases, so if it was in fact confirmed that Shisami trained to reach Piccolo / Cell Jr. tier, it wouldn't surprise me too much.

In fact, personally, of the two theories, I like the idea of Shisami training better. It just seems so much more practical and straightforward. As much as I like the theory of Shisami starting off with a power that can rival Piccolo / Cell Jr., it seems to be based on too many propositions. With the whole concept of Shisami training, we don't need to assume that the organization lacked leadership, or that Shisami simply wanted to be muscles of the group and yield the position of leadership to someone weaker. Rather, with the training theory we only need to base it off of one assumption -- Shisami trained.

Again, I'm not discrediting the theory of Shisami starting off powerful or the comparison to Zarbon / Dodoria being in reference to rank over power. I think it's still a great theory that has many great points that would be fun to discuss. However, for the sake of simplicity and avoiding having to make too many assumptions, I prefer the theory of Shisami training to obtain a level where he can fight on par with Piccolo. Both theories work fine for me, and in my opinion both seem more suitable than Piccolo being pummeled by someone Zarbon tier or Gohan needing SSJ to take down a fighter who is only around Zarbon level.

[dbzfan7]

While it may have been the case that Freeza ruled through power and fear, we also have to remember Sorbet was apparently the one who was seemingly in charge after Freeza's departure. If the organization only submitted to a being simply due to their power, then I doubt Sorbet could have reached the position he was in. Given the fact that Shisami was not the Freeza's direct successor, we can get an implication that there were other qualities that Sorbet possessed that helped him obtain his position. Unless, however, you believe Sorbet was the strongest member left in the organization after Freeza left.

There are many variables to consider here. For one, Shisami could have simply trained and obtained an amazing battle power all those years Freeza was dead (not during the 4 months Freeza spent training). Therefore, we may even able to assume that power was something that that Shisami gained through hard work over the years (again after Freeza's demise). Furthermore, even if we assume Shisami does increase his battle power / ki over the years, it does not mean we can expect to see a proportionate improvement in his other qualities (leadership, rank, strategic prowess).

I understand Freeza may have ruled through power and fear, but that didn't necessarily mean he went around destroying every single being who opposed his organization. I think that was a task reserved for some of the grunts. Neither Shiami nor Freeza can be at every single place that is crawling with opposition. Again, I can't find a specific reference, but I think I recall hearing the organization was falling apart and it's not what it once was. If that is in fact the case, I can see how collectively they would have a hard time fighting off and suppressing resistance.

If you want another analogy that is somewhat applicable here, just remember that Fat Buu had enough power to subdue quite a few planets, yet he was being ordered around by Bibidi, and to an extent Babidi. Shisami could be another being who may have had the power to rule, but not necessarily the right mentality and/or brains.

He does have a god killing ring. Also there's nothing to say Shisami is even that powerful to begin with, that's just something some people made up to try and rationalize thoughtless writing.

Doesn't matter if he amassed a lot of power even before Freeza's revival. If he has the power, he can rule as Freeza would. All Freeza does is order people to do shit, and kills them if they fail. If they desert they also are killed. There would be no rebellions if Shisami was superior to Freeza. Not only that but the army is garbage because they're all supposed to be nothing special. No one knew Freeza would get stronger, so if Shisami was already superior to Freeza, then what the hell is Freeza gonna do? Freeza would just do the same thing he always does. Something Shisami can do possibly. That or he's weaker and is a prodigy too somehow.

That's exactly what Freeza did. He killed all those who opposed him. There is no leadership shit. He just simply forced his way from his sheer immense power. He doesn't do diplomacy. He's a thug. There job is to conquer worlds. If Shisami is powerful, you get him to do it all which he could single handedly, and have him salvage any noteworthy warriors. The story tells us though that Shisami is not that powerful as him being Freeza tier would leave the army in an outstanding condition. He and Shisami are compared to Dodoria and Zarbon. Hence how easily he died. Sorbet says they're talented warriors on par with Zarbon and Dodoria. I doubt that's just rank.

Babidi had threatened to seal Boo away if he didn't listen. The same can likely be said about Bidbidi. So Boo feared he'd be put away, and listened to the wizards.

I don't think that Sorbet's ring is what brought him up to his position.

Both theories (Shisami starting off Piccolo / Cell Jr. tier or Shisami training to reach that tier) have points of credibility, but yes, the theory of Shisami starting off Piccolo / Cell Jr. tier has its own version of fallacies and points of uncertainty. Assuming you're right and Freeza ruled through power and fear, we can still assume Shisami trained alongside Freeza to reach Piccolo / Cell Jr. tier. I don't think a Zarbon tier fighter reaching the level of Piccolo / Cell Jr. would necessarily be considered a prodigy. Does it seem a bit far-fetched? Yes, definitely. However, by this point, we've seen some incredible power increases, so if it was in fact confirmed that Shisami trained to reach Piccolo / Cell Jr. tier, it wouldn't surprise me too much.

In fact, personally, of the two theories, I like the idea of Shisami training better. It just seems so much more practical and straightforward. As much as I like the theory of Shisami starting off with a power that can rival Piccolo / Cell Jr., it seems to be based on too many propositions. With the whole concept of Shisami training, we don't need to assume that the organization lacked leadership, or that Shisami simply wanted to be muscles of the group and yield the position of leadership to someone weaker. Rather, with the training theory we only need to base it off of one assumption -- Shisami trained.

Again, I'm not discrediting the theory of Shisami starting off powerful or the comparison to Zarbon / Dodoria being in reference to rank over power. I think it's still a great theory that has many great points that would be fun to discuss. However, for the sake of simplicity and avoiding having to make too many assumptions, I prefer the theory of Shisami training to obtain a level where he can fight on par with Piccolo. Both theories work fine for me, and in my opinion both seem more suitable than Piccolo being pummeled by someone Zarbon tier or Gohan needing SSJ to take down a fighter who is only around Zarbon level.

We have no clue about him, other than he just is. If anything he's the only one who actually may show some leadership that's not power flaunting. Freeza was all power flaunting.

Freeza did rule through power and fear, that's why he was labelled a horrible dictator. Ginyu is even described as one of the only people who actually respects Freeza in his bio, meaning most don't even like him. Again nothing says he even trained at all. The movie never says anything on Shisami about that. That's people once again trying to cover up lackluster explanations. Also reaching Piccolo level or beyond in 3 month's for a throw away mook is silly. Doing in short time what took everyone else years, and even so just anti climatically being one shotted by both Gohan and Freeza, to show he ain't special at all.

Who said he did any training at all? Who said he is that strong when he's compared alongside Tagoma as a warrior? We did have Freeza state 1.3 million was a number he'd train to reach, even though he already has surpassed that before dying. We have 2 wishes instead of 3. We have a power up that has nothing to do with training magically disappearing. We have Goten and Trunks somehow not sensing what's going on either. Just more contrived crap. None of this is really explained, cause none of this matters. Obviously they didn't think about any power level comparisons, so they just threw in Shisami as a "tough guy", without thinking of anything else. Hence why excuses have to be made for him.

If you see it that way, then by all means. It's nothing more than a colossal lack of care that is just trying to have a pointless, try battle mean more than it actually does. That's all Shisami was to me. Trying to make a waste of time fight mean more than it actually does. Created simply to try and add some credibility and die as a completely undeveloped afterthought.

[Hitiro]

Outside the Saiyan's and the Namekian's we've had literally 16 people in the entire universe above the 1,000's. I'm not saying there aren't more out there. But the chances of them seems to be incredibly low considering the majority served under Freeza and died. Freeza has had 20-30 years of conquering planets under his belt and he only ended up with 12 warriors above the 1,000's. The only ones that didn't serve under him were Cold, Yakon and Pui Pui. And to be honest Pui Pui may not even be above the 1,000's. I don't think Guldo was either but I included him too. Going from 12 people managing the army with varying battle powers(2 of which may have entered the army after Freeza died.) to a measly 2 is going to cause a lot of problems.

The universe is a huge place. All the time more powerful people are discovered. If more powerful people aren't discovered, they're created. This happens all the time. If all the rebels were in the 1000's, then get even more of them on your side. The rebels don't have a chance if they're outnumbered. Shisami alone can force people to join if he's this powerful already. Shisami could even front line every invasion or even Tagoma could and they'd win every time. If anyone stronger than Tagoma shows up, then Shisami takes them down. So either way they get more vast mooks, or more powerful minions if they turn up. Either way the army gets bigger, and Freeza is useless.

The universe is a huge place. But after Freeza's Death the number of people in the universe with high battle powers over the next 15+ years for his army was only 4 people. Don't you think if there were more people like Zarbon, Dodoria or the Ginyu force they would have been in Freeza's army over the 15+ years Freeza was dead? But as we see in the film there are only two characters with decent battle powers in Freeza's army. Tagoma and Shisami(With Abo and Cado being defeated of course). Shisami may be able to force people to join if he's that powerful. But maintaining a whole army by himself is an impossible task. If he and Shisami are the only ones to keep them in place it is going to be very difficult to manage. And yes, Shisami or even Tagoma could front line the invasion every time. But think of how many planets are under Freeza's army. 100's if not 1,000's. If a good portion of them are rebelling then it is going to take years to sort it out. That is without new planets rebelling. They were clearly stretched too thin in the story. And again. Freeza isn't useless. He is a figure head for people to fear. Bringing him back will boost the armies moral and lower the rebels, it may even force them to stop rebelling. The rebels likely started acting up because Freeza had been killed.

In Kidou Senshi Gundam: Orera Renpou Gurentai they faked resurrecting Commander Garma Zabi to win a battle and reform the Zeon forces. And it wasn't like Garma Zabi was the best mobile suit pilot in the Zeon forces. That title goes to the Red Comet, Char Aznable.

[dbzfan7]

Outside the Saiyan's and the Namekian's we've had literally 16 people in the entire universe above the 1,000's. I'm not saying there aren't more out there. But the chances of them seems to be incredibly low considering the majority served under Freeza and died. Freeza has had 20-30 years of conquering planets under his belt and he only ended up with 12 warriors above the 1,000's. The only ones that didn't serve under him were Cold, Yakon and Pui Pui. And to be honest Pui Pui may not even be above the 1,000's. I don't think Guldo was either but I included him too. Going from 12 people managing the army with varying battle powers(2 of which may have entered the army after Freeza died.) to a measly 2 is going to cause a lot of problems.

The universe is a huge place. All the time more powerful people are discovered. If more powerful people aren't discovered, they're created. This happens all the time. If all the rebels were in the 1000's, then get even more of them on your side. The rebels don't have a chance if they're outnumbered. Shisami alone can force people to join if he's this powerful already. Shisami could even front line every invasion or even Tagoma could and they'd win every time. If anyone stronger than Tagoma shows up, then Shisami takes them down. So either way they get more vast mooks, or more powerful minions if they turn up. Either way the army gets bigger, and Freeza is useless.

The universe is a huge place. But after Freeza's Death the number of people in the universe with high battle powers over the next 15+ years for his army was only 4 people. Don't you think if there were more people like Zarbon, Dodoria or the Ginyu force they would have been in Freeza's army over the 15+ years Freeza was dead? But as we see in the film there are only two characters with decent battle powers in Freeza's army. Tagoma and Shisami(With Abo and Cado being defeated of course). Shisami may be able to force people to join if he's that powerful. But maintaining a whole army by himself is an impossible task. If he and Shisami are the only ones to keep them in place it is going to be very difficult to manage. And yes, Shisami or even Tagoma could front line the invasion every time. But think of how many planets are under Freeza's army. 100's if not 1,000's. If a good portion of them are rebelling then it is going to take years to sort it out. That is without new planets rebelling. They were clearly stretched too thin in the story. And again. Freeza isn't useless. He is a figure head for people to fear. Bringing him back will boost the armies moral and lower the rebels, it may even force them to stop rebelling. The rebels likely started acting up because Freeza had been killed.

In Kidou Senshi Gundam: Orera Renpou Gurentai they faked resurrecting Commander Garma Zabi to win a battle and reform the Zeon forces. And it wasn't like Garma Zabi was the best mobile suit pilot in the Zeon forces. That title goes to the Red Comet, Char Aznable.

Universe is a big place, hence more strong people are out there that could have been recruited. Again even weaklings of 1000 can be recruited to overcome the other weaklings. The army is in such shit that they can't even do that. Or else they could have an armada of people at that level. Shisami alone could blow up some planets and be the next Freeza. Freeza himself is not needed if Shisami is that powerful. Even so the movie in no way says any of that is the case. Tagoma and Shisami as warriors are compared to Zarbon and Dodoria according to the script. All the build up by Shisami is fan speculation to cover thoughtless writing. Freeza's army would in no way be in deep shit if Shisami was this damn strong this whole time. Freeza himself was literally going to do what I am saying after the movie if he survived. Do exactly what the army wasn't doing for the past several year.

[Hitiro]

Universe is a big place, hence more strong people are out there that could have been recruited. Again even weaklings of 1000 can be recruited to overcome the other weaklings. The army is in such shit that they can't even do that. Or else they could have an armada of people at that level. Shisami alone could blow up some planets and be the next Freeza. Freeza himself is not needed if Shisami is that powerful. Even so the movie in no way says any of that is the case. Tagoma and Shisami as warriors are compared to Zarbon and Dodoria according to the script. All the build up by Shisami is fan speculation to cover thoughtless writing. Freeza's army would in no way be in deep shit if Shisami was this damn strong this whole time. Freeza himself was literally going to do what I am saying after the movie if he survived. Do exactly what the army wasn't doing for the past several year.

You make it sound like all they need to do is recruit weaklings in the 1,000's region. You realise people die in armies right? Even if Shisami recruits people there are going to be lots dying from fighting rebels on several worlds. And the rebels are simply going to outnumber the amount of people in Freeza's army anyway because they're trying to conquer planets. Planets with populations in the millions to billions. Even if Shisami goes around conquering planets solo to increase the army capacity he is going to have to spread that war potential across 100's if not 1,000's of planets. A billion people spread across 1,000 planets is going to mean an army of a million people against a planet of a billion people. It is fine if the planet has low battle powers like Earth. But if they are dealing with planets that have similar battle powers then it is obvious an army of a million isn't going to win against an army of a billion.

Not to mention the resources necessary to divide up a population of a billion to fight across those worlds.

Everybody remembers the terror of Freeza which is why it would be the best thing to bring him back. The only reason people started doing this is because of his death. With him back the planets would be in despair and the army would reform properly. While Shisami could be more powerful than Freeza that doesn't give him the fear that Freeza wielded initially. Freeza built up this terror over time. Shisami would also need time to spread his name and fear across the universe. In all honesty it was easier for Freeza because he started off small and grew. Freeza also had the Saiyan's at the start of his reign of terror which were the best warriors in the universe. If he maintained the Saiyan's he maintained his empire at the beginning. Then after all this time just the fear of Freeza would be required. He wouldn't need the Saiyan's. Shisami however has to start off where Freeza left off.

[dbzfan7]

Universe is a big place, hence more strong people are out there that could have been recruited. Again even weaklings of 1000 can be recruited to overcome the other weaklings. The army is in such shit that they can't even do that. Or else they could have an armada of people at that level. Shisami alone could blow up some planets and be the next Freeza. Freeza himself is not needed if Shisami is that powerful. Even so the movie in no way says any of that is the case. Tagoma and Shisami as warriors are compared to Zarbon and Dodoria according to the script. All the build up by Shisami is fan speculation to cover thoughtless writing. Freeza's army would in no way be in deep shit if Shisami was this damn strong this whole time. Freeza himself was literally going to do what I am saying after the movie if he survived. Do exactly what the army wasn't doing for the past several year.

You make it sound like all they need to do is recruit weaklings in the 1,000's region. You realise people die in armies right? Even if Shisami recruits people there are going to be lots dying from fighting rebels on several worlds. And the rebels are simply going to outnumber the amount of people in Freeza's army anyway because they're trying to conquer planets. Planets with populations in the millions to billions. Even if Shisami goes around conquering planets solo to increase the army capacity he is going to have to spread that war potential across 100's if not 1,000's of planets. A billion people spread across 1,000 planets is going to mean an army of a million people against a planet of a billion people. It is fine if the planet has low battle powers like Earth. But if they are dealing with planets that have similar battle powers then it is obvious an army of a million isn't going to win against an army of a billion.

Not to mention the resources necessary to divide up a population of a billion to fight across those worlds.

Everybody remembers the terror of Freeza which is why it would be the best thing to bring him back. The only reason people started doing this is because of his death. With him back the planets would be in despair and the army would reform properly. While Shisami could be more powerful than Freeza that doesn't give him the fear that Freeza wielded initially. Freeza built up this terror over time. Shisami would also need time to spread his name and fear across the universe. In all honesty it was easier for Freeza because he started off small and grew. Freeza also had the Saiyan's at the start of his reign of terror which were the best warriors in the universe. If he maintained the Saiyan's he maintained his empire at the beginning. Then after all this time just the fear of Freeza would be required. He wouldn't need the Saiyan's. Shisami however has to start off where Freeza left off.

Freeza wouldn't make a difference. He'd still have weak troops who'd be unable to hold a planet at all. Shisami can accomplish anything Freeza could if he were that powerful. And that's even if he is, cause nothing in movie says that's the case. He's compared as a warrior to the likes of Zarbon and Dodoria according to script alongside Tagoma. People make up the excuse he trained, even though that's never mentioned. Shisami himself can become the new face of fear if he wished. They had years to establish this. His name would be spread across worlds if he appeared to end all conflicts. Just like Freeza. The reason rebels exist is because Freeza's army no longer had power players who could stop them. With Freeza back you'd have 1 person. Freeza alone couldn't put a stop to the rebels in your case either, unless he has more power players to keep worlds in check. The rebels don't have anything to fear as the opposition is crippled and not strong enough to contain them anymore.

The terror of Freeza alone can not fix everything. Not without having some strong soldiers. He's only one guy. He succeeds cause he had strong henchman to go around. Now he doesn't and if we go by your word that Shisami can't gather strong warriors to keep worlds in check, neither could Freeza. Freeza would have to go to each world to put a stop to it's problems. Something Shisami could do. Freeza wouldn't be able to keep a grip on these worlds as since there's so many planets, once he's gone, they have no real opposition again. Freeza could recruit more strong people, which is also something Shisami could do. Freeza only has brand recognition, and that's it. It's not like it's impossible for Shisami to get the same recognition if they set out to do that.

[shonenhikada]

How the F does goku lose to a beam rifle ?

[Hitiro]

Freeza wouldn't make a difference. He'd still have weak troops who'd be unable to hold a planet at all. Shisami can accomplish anything Freeza could if he were that powerful. And that's even if he is, cause nothing in movie says that's the case. He's compared as a warrior to the likes of Zarbon and Dodoria according to script alongside Tagoma. People make up the excuse he trained, even though that's never mentioned. Shisami himself can become the new face of fear if he wished. They had years to establish this. His name would be spread across worlds if he appeared to end all conflicts. Just like Freeza. The reason rebels exist is because Freeza's army no longer had power players who could stop them. With Freeza back you'd have 1 person. Freeza alone couldn't put a stop to the rebels in your case either, unless he has more power players to keep worlds in check. The rebels don't have anything to fear as the opposition is crippled and not strong enough to contain them anymore.

The terror of Freeza alone can not fix everything. Not without having some strong soldiers. He's only one guy. He succeeds cause he had strong henchman to go around. Now he doesn't and if we go by your word that Shisami can't gather strong warriors to keep worlds in check, neither could Freeza. Freeza would have to go to each world to put a stop to it's problems. Something Shisami could do. Freeza wouldn't be able to keep a grip on these worlds as since there's so many planets, once he's gone, they have no real opposition again. Freeza could recruit more strong people, which is also something Shisami could do. Freeza only has brand recognition, and that's it. It's not like it's impossible for Shisami to get the same recognition if they set out to do that.

He'd definitely make the difference psychologically. Shisami can't accomplish Freeza's level of fear because that was something Freeza built upon during his reign up until its pinnacle. And a native Japanese speaker in these forums has already said that he was only compared to Zarbon and Dodoria in position only. I'm not disagreeing Shisami could become the new face of fear if he wished. But it would take time. And he would have to start from scratch and rather than use Freeza's army. Because he is trying to fix an army that is already falling apart. He would need to take over worlds one by one. Not try to hold on to the worlds that Freeza's army had already established. The fighting force is spread across the universe trying to maintain what it has. When it should start over and focus on overwhelming each planet with its forces. The reason the rebels exist is because Freeza, who is what they feared, is gone. Just like how Hitler was feared died and it was a boon to the allied forces. If you're already subjugated it is hard to fall out of the if the leader is alive and kicking. It is literally the plot of most major stories that killing the leader will produce a rebel force.

With Freeza back you have the very person everyone feared. So yes. Freeza coming back would be enough to stop most rebel activities because they would remember the fear he instilled. They'd be of the mindset that with Freeza back things will go back to the way they were. Freeza ruled once so there would be nothing to stop him from ruling again. That's how they would see it. He already demonstrated an overwhelming victory over his many years as a dictator. Freeza had already established a terror that prevented anyone from challenging him. There is nothing saying that it won't happen again. Given his track record then that is exactly what the rebels will think too. It doesn't matter if he actually wouldn't be able to do it if the rebels did fight back. All that matters is that a large portion of those rebels would likely believe that he would succeed and there is no way to challenge him. Have you not seen Stargate SG1? The very same thing happens with the Goa'uld. They believe Apothis is dead and then he is alive so all the Jaffa that were fighting against Apothis loyal Jaffa, and they were winning, decided that with Apothis back they couldn't win. And Apothis ended up with most of his old territory back. They were also fighting against the Goa'uld that were more powerful than Apothis too. How is this any different?

How the F does goku lose to a beam rifle ?

It was explained that Goku has a habit of relaxing and being caught off-guard. At the times he relaxed he leaves himself vulnerable to weak attacks because he lets most of his Ki leave. Thus his defences are significantly weakened. Whis demonstrates it during their training session. He taps Goku and Goku is in agony.

[dbzfan7]

Freeza wouldn't make a difference. He'd still have weak troops who'd be unable to hold a planet at all. Shisami can accomplish anything Freeza could if he were that powerful. And that's even if he is, cause nothing in movie says that's the case. He's compared as a warrior to the likes of Zarbon and Dodoria according to script alongside Tagoma. People make up the excuse he trained, even though that's never mentioned. Shisami himself can become the new face of fear if he wished. They had years to establish this. His name would be spread across worlds if he appeared to end all conflicts. Just like Freeza. The reason rebels exist is because Freeza's army no longer had power players who could stop them. With Freeza back you'd have 1 person. Freeza alone couldn't put a stop to the rebels in your case either, unless he has more power players to keep worlds in check. The rebels don't have anything to fear as the opposition is crippled and not strong enough to contain them anymore.

The terror of Freeza alone can not fix everything. Not without having some strong soldiers. He's only one guy. He succeeds cause he had strong henchman to go around. Now he doesn't and if we go by your word that Shisami can't gather strong warriors to keep worlds in check, neither could Freeza. Freeza would have to go to each world to put a stop to it's problems. Something Shisami could do. Freeza wouldn't be able to keep a grip on these worlds as since there's so many planets, once he's gone, they have no real opposition again. Freeza could recruit more strong people, which is also something Shisami could do. Freeza only has brand recognition, and that's it. It's not like it's impossible for Shisami to get the same recognition if they set out to do that.

He'd definitely make the difference psychologically. Shisami can't accomplish Freeza's level of fear because that was something Freeza built upon during his reign up until its pinnacle. And a native Japanese speaker in these forums has already said that he was only compared to Zarbon and Dodoria in position only. I'm not disagreeing Shisami could become the new face of fear if he wished. But it would take time. And he would have to start from scratch and rather than use Freeza's army. Because he is trying to fix an army that is already falling apart. He would need to take over worlds one by one. Not try to hold on to the worlds that Freeza's army had already established. The fighting force is spread across the universe trying to maintain what it has. When it should start over and focus on overwhelming each planet with its forces. The reason the rebels exist is because Freeza, who is what they feared, is gone. Just like how Hitler was feared died and it was a boon to the allied forces. If you're already subjugated it is hard to fall out of the if the leader is alive and kicking. It is literally the plot of most major stories that killing the leader will produce a rebel force.

With Freeza back you have the very person everyone feared. So yes. Freeza coming back would be enough to stop most rebel activities because they would remember the fear he instilled. They'd be of the mindset that with Freeza back things will go back to the way they were. Freeza ruled once so there would be nothing to stop him from ruling again. That's how they would see it. He already demonstrated an overwhelming victory over his many years as a dictator. Freeza had already established a terror that prevented anyone from challenging him. There is nothing saying that it won't happen again. Given his track record then that is exactly what the rebels will think too. It doesn't matter if he actually wouldn't be able to do it if the rebels did fight back. All that matters is that a large portion of those rebels would likely believe that he would succeed and there is no way to challenge him. Have you not seen Stargate SG1? The very same thing happens with the Goa'uld. They believe Apothis is dead and then he is alive so all the Jaffa that were fighting against Apothis loyal Jaffa, and they were winning, decided that with Apothis back they couldn't win. And Apothis ended up with most of his old territory back. They were also fighting against the Goa'uld that were more powerful than Apothis too. How is this any different?

Sorbet: “Hmph, what choice do we have? People aren’t afraid of our army anymore now that they know Lord Freeza and the rest of the top brass have been wiped out, so insurrections are breaking out on planets all over the place! To top it off, even our internal chain of command is beginning to crumble!”

How would Shisami not count as top if he's super powerful?

Also

Sorbet: “He’s a talented warrior, on par with the late lamented Zarbon or Dodoria.”

Apparently the script only mentions Tagoma, but movie goers say it's both of them mentioned. The word here is talented warrior, how would talented warrior link to rank? furthermore what the hell does comparing rank even mean to Freeza? Freeza is more interested in powerful soldiers, not on people's titles. Besides Zarbon and Dodoria were ranked there, because they were strong. The Ginyu Force outrank the two of them on Freeza's elite, hence the comparisons that were made for Abo and Cado way back. Vegeta even says they ranked with the Ginyu Force, which meant power wise. That's the same description as used for these two as they rank with Zarbon and Dodoria. People seem to use this as an excuse to make up thoughtless writing, same as the Shisami being super strong or training theory. None of which the movie confirmed at all.

Shisami if he were that powerful could accomplish all of this in the time it took for them to get Freeza back from his death. Even then Freeza calls all his men fodder. Freeza can't have a grasp on 1000's of worlds as 1 guy. He never did in the past either. Back then he had several agents to keep worlds in check, now he has none. So even with him back, you still have nothing. His name alone is not gonna keep 1000 worlds in check. You need actual muscle to do that, which none of the army has. All the worlds won't lay down their arms for 1 guy. If so then Shisami could have been that guy if he were that powerful. Send him to each world so they get the message, and then that would spread.

Never saw that, but Freeza has 0 back bone in his army. It's like Boss Rabbit and his mooks. Only the one guy has any sort of relevance, and even then it's over a small town. Over 1000's of worlds, 1 guy is not gonna control everything. He'd need actual people to keep the worlds in check. If a power player existed, than that person alone would be enough to put a stop to the rebels, but there isn't one. That was the point to having Freeza back, cause they didn't have the man power to control people anymore. Having a more powerful person in the army defeats that purpose.

How the F does goku lose to a beam rifle ?

Via bullshit. That or a pump action shot gun can kill the gods.

[Hitiro]

Sorbet: “Hmph, what choice do we have? People aren’t afraid of our army anymore now that they know Lord Freeza and the rest of the top brass have been wiped out, so insurrections are breaking out on planets all over the place! To top it off, even our internal chain of command is beginning to crumble!”

How would Shisami not count as top if he's super powerful?

They aren't afraid of Shisami because he has yet to make a name for himself. Freeza and his henchmen had 20+ years worth of fear instilled in their victims. Shisami is relatively new on the scene and has joined when the army is crumbling already. So he isn't going to leave much of an impression even if he is stronger than Freeza.

Also

Sorbet: “He’s a talented warrior, on par with the late lamented Zarbon or Dodoria.”

Apparently the script only mentions Tagoma, but movie goers say it's both of them mentioned. The word here is talented warrior, how would talented warrior link to rank?

Like I already told you a native Japanese speaker within this very forum, according to Kamicollo9, said that in the movie the word position is used. I'm just going off what I've been told.

That's what I'm saying. From what I read in the movie thread from a native Japanese speaker who saw the movie, the term they used here referred to position, not strength.

Shisami if he were that powerful could accomplish all of this in the time it took for them to get Freeza back from his death. Even then Freeza calls all his men fodder. Freeza can't have a grasp on 1000's of worlds as 1 guy. He never did in the past either. Back then he had several agents to keep worlds in check, now he has none. So even with him back, you still have nothing. His name alone is not gonna keep 1000 worlds in check. You need actual muscle to do that, which none of the army has.

If he were to start from scratch maybe. But he has been trying to keep an already falling apart army from falling apart and reclaiming the presence they had when Freeza was alive. Now that would be easier if he started out from scratch. But it is hard to save something that is already crumbling. That's why a lot of companies will liquidate their assets and reform as new companies because it is easier to start from the beginning. Freeza didn't in the past because he was building up his territory. Their fear is already established so he shouldn't need henchmen now. All he needs to do is exist. It is going to reduce the insubordination and is going to make a lot of the worlds give up trying to fight back. The ones that don't he or Shisami or Tagoma can go take care of. They would be reducing the problem by bringing him back. His name is obviously not going to keep 1,000 worlds in check. But it will reduce it down to a majority they can manage.

Never saw that, but Freeza has 0 back bone in his army. It's like Boss Rabbit and his mooks. Only the one guy has any sort of relevance, and even then it's over a small town. Over 1000's of worlds, 1 guy is not gonna control everything. He'd need actual people to keep the worlds in check. If a power player existed, than that person alone would be enough to put a stop to the rebels, but there isn't one. That was the point to having Freeza back, cause they didn't have the man power to control people anymore. Having a more powerful person in the army defeats that purpose.

He technically wouldn't be 1 guy when his army is fixed up. Which it would by him being brought back. Nobody wants to deal with him. His presence has a major influence on everything so that is why they need him back. To play his role as the evil dictator again and restore the army to the way it once was. His presence is going to fix a lot things and for the rest they can use the army or his stronger henchmen Tagoma and Shisami to fix the rest.

How the F does goku lose to a beam rifle ?

Via bullshit. That or a pump action shot gun can kill the gods.

It's no different from the extremely overpowered SSJ2 Gohan being injured by Super Perfect Cell when he only needs half of his Ki to beat him as evidence by only using half with the Kamehameha. You can't really claim "via bullshit" because Whis explained this before the fight and it was explained after he got shot too. If Goku had kept his guard up rather than relaxing then his Ki would have been enough to tank the blow easily.

[dbzfan7]

Sorbet: “Hmph, what choice do we have? People aren’t afraid of our army anymore now that they know Lord Freeza and the rest of the top brass have been wiped out, so insurrections are breaking out on planets all over the place! To top it off, even our internal chain of command is beginning to crumble!”

How would Shisami not count as top if he's super powerful?

They aren't afraid of Shisami because he has yet to make a name for himself. Freeza and his henchmen had 20+ years worth of fear instilled in their victims. Shisami is relatively new on the scene and has joined when the army is crumbling already. So he isn't going to leave much of an impression even if he is stronger than Freeza.

Also

Sorbet: “He’s a talented warrior, on par with the late lamented Zarbon or Dodoria.”

Apparently the script only mentions Tagoma, but movie goers say it's both of them mentioned. The word here is talented warrior, how would talented warrior link to rank?

Like I already told you a native Japanese speaker within this very forum, according to Kamicollo9, said that in the movie the word position is used. I'm just going off what I've been told.

That's what I'm saying. From what I read in the movie thread from a native Japanese speaker who saw the movie, the term they used here referred to position, not strength.

Shisami if he were that powerful could accomplish all of this in the time it took for them to get Freeza back from his death. Even then Freeza calls all his men fodder. Freeza can't have a grasp on 1000's of worlds as 1 guy. He never did in the past either. Back then he had several agents to keep worlds in check, now he has none. So even with him back, you still have nothing. His name alone is not gonna keep 1000 worlds in check. You need actual muscle to do that, which none of the army has.

If he were to start from scratch maybe. But he has been trying to keep an already falling apart army from falling apart and reclaiming the presence they had when Freeza was alive. Now that would be easier if he started out from scratch. But it is hard to save something that is already crumbling. That's why a lot of companies will liquidate their assets and reform as new companies because it is easier to start from the beginning. Freeza didn't in the past because he was building up his territory. Their fear is already established so he shouldn't need henchmen now. All he needs to do is exist. It is going to reduce the insubordination and is going to make a lot of the worlds give up trying to fight back. The ones that don't he or Shisami or Tagoma can go take care of. They would be reducing the problem by bringing him back. His name is obviously not going to keep 1,000 worlds in check. But it will reduce it down to a majority they can manage.

Never saw that, but Freeza has 0 back bone in his army. It's like Boss Rabbit and his mooks. Only the one guy has any sort of relevance, and even then it's over a small town. Over 1000's of worlds, 1 guy is not gonna control everything. He'd need actual people to keep the worlds in check. If a power player existed, than that person alone would be enough to put a stop to the rebels, but there isn't one. That was the point to having Freeza back, cause they didn't have the man power to control people anymore. Having a more powerful person in the army defeats that purpose.

He technically wouldn't be 1 guy when his army is fixed up. Which it would by him being brought back. Nobody wants to deal with him. His presence has a major influence on everything so that is why they need him back. To play his role as the evil dictator again and restore the army to the way it once was. His presence is going to fix a lot things and for the rest they can use the army or his stronger henchmen Tagoma and Shisami to fix the rest.

How the F does goku lose to a beam rifle ?

Via bullshit. That or a pump action shot gun can kill the gods.

It's no different from the extremely overpowered SSJ2 Gohan being injured by Super Perfect Cell when he only needs half of his Ki to beat him as evidence by only using half with the Kamehameha. You can't really claim "via bullshit" because Whis explained this before the fight and it was explained after he got shot too. If Goku had kept his guard up rather than relaxing then his Ki would have been enough to tank the blow easily.

Name or not Shisami would count as top tier, yet he isn't cause he ain't powerful.

Rank was also used to describe Abo and Cado by Vegeta, and they still meant power. Vegeta said they ranked among the Ginyu Force, with Tarble saying they are now stronger than that.

Who's to say it will? The point is the army has no power players. They can't fight back cause they're weak. That's why Freeza was brought back. They need Freeza to overpower and recruit more strong people since they can't do that no more.

His presence won't suddenly have worlds just up and give up. They won't listen to a bunch of weaklings once he's gone. The problem lies with weak soldiers, not Freeza being gone. That's why they were so desperate to bring back Freeza. If they had strong soldiers they wouldn't need him at all.

Cell is on par with Gohan. So of course he can harm Gohan. Vegeta himself had to lower power to the absolute limit to be harmed by Krillin. Goku didn't lower his power to such a low level that he could be harmed. He's still transformed. You really think he lowered his power all the way to like 300? Just like how a shot gun would just bounce off Goku, so would a ring. So you're saying Beginning of Z Piccolo could also just kill SSGSS so long as he isn't paying attention? Tao Pai Pai could just Dodonpa SSGSS Goku just cause he ain't paying attention?

[Hitiro]

Name or not Shisami would count as top tier, yet he isn't cause he ain't powerful.

What says he doesn't count as part of the top brass? All Sorbet said was that Freeza and the rest of the top brass was wiped out. That could still imply that there are other top brass people. He didn't say all of the top brass had been wiped out. Rest could simply imply anyone other than Tagoma and Shisami.

Rank was also used to describe Abo and Cado by Vegeta, and they still meant power. Vegeta said they ranked among the Ginyu Force, with Tarble saying they are now stronger than that.

In that specific example we're told that by rank they are talking about strength. In this one it isn't clear. And it is highly possible that this "position" word is used to describe a very specific type of position. There are words like that in Japanese.

Who's to say it will? The point is the army has no power players. They can't fight back cause they're weak. That's why Freeza was brought back. They need Freeza to overpower and recruit more strong people since they can't do that no more.

That is simply your opinion. We're never told that it is Freeza's strength they need to fix things. Just that they need Freeza back so that they can fix the army. Like I said Freeza could just be a figure head to in still the fear into those planets and then they can deal with the minority. Nothing says that it can't play out that way. It certainly plays out that way in a lot of other stories. Like the ones I mentioned.

His presence won't suddenly have worlds just up and give up. They won't listen to a bunch of weaklings once he's gone. The problem lies with weak soldiers, not Freeza being gone. That's why they were so desperate to bring back Freeza. If they had strong soldiers they wouldn't need him at all.

His presence can certainly do that. Like I've told you already it happens a lot in other stories with people much weaker than Freeza. Commander Garma Zabi would literally only be able to take down a few mobile suits. Something any mobile pilot should be able to manage. Yet his "resurrection" drove reform within the Zeon forces and allowed them to win several battles just knowing he is alive as it demotivated the Earth Federation and motivated the Zeon forces.

Cell is on par with Gohan. So of course he can harm Gohan. Vegeta himself had to lower power to the absolute limit to be harmed by Krillin. Goku didn't lower his power to such a low level that he could be harmed. He's still transformed. You really think he lowered his power all the way to like 300? Just like how a shot gun would just bounce off Goku, so would a ring. So you're saying Beginning of Z Piccolo could also just kill SSGSS so long as he isn't paying attention? Tao Pai Pai could just Dodonpa SSGSS Goku just cause he ain't paying attention?

Cell is definitely not on par with SSJ2 Gohan if Gohan could still finish the fight with only half of his Ki. That implies that without the injury Gohan is almost twice as strong as Cell. The only reason Gohan got hurt was because he underestimated how strong Cell became from coming back to life. He says this himself. And Vegeta doesn't explain how he'll do this. Whether he did it consciously or not. So it is entirely possible that you can unconsciously do this in a fight. You can't possibly claim that Goku didn't lower his power to such a low level because nothing is stated. All we know is his power had dropped enough to be affected by the attack. And what makes you think that lowering it to the limit is required for injury? It's entirely possible that Vegeta did it to receive the worst attack he can possibly receive to get the biggest Zenkai. All Goku would need to do is have his battle power lower than the attack. Like what the story has told us already. Look at Goku hurting 50% Freeza. Surely that shouldn't happen if Freeza hasn't lowered his power to the absolute limit. And it isn't that Goku isn't paying attention. He has relaxed himself because he thinks he has won. I'm sure beginning of Z Piccolo could kill SSGSS if Goku was the way he was in this scene. Same for Tao Pai Pai.