Time Travel Discussion (Potential DB Super Spoilers)

[TheUltimateNinja]

If so, it's right. I just give that the same big fat "This is a mistake and can't line up with anything else; ignore it!" that I give Cell's dialogue about Trunks killing Freeza and Cold in the manga/Z.

(I'm aware that there are ways to make both lines function in-universe, but they require so much bending around the obvious answers and make things so needlessly obtuse that I can't imagine Toriyama or Toei realized the implications as they wrote them. Dragon Ball's a series I have no problem assuming comes with a few gaps.)

Are there, though? How do you explain the Cell thing?

[The gr]

I'm not in a mood of making a long ass paragraph about why it doesn't make sense but I'll leave to this video to explain this mess https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=OZfmaE0b944

It's a shame this video was so disorganized, it's really hard to recommend. However, it's pretty much the only one that addresses the problem at all. We should really have someone make a diagram of all the issues. I know I should do it myself since I thought of it, but I'm horrible with charts.

Someone give me the tl;dr on the video. Does it just cover the issue of Zamasu citing a fight between himself and Goku that should never have happened without Trunks (and Black's) intervention in the past?

basically he criticize zamasu origins and why it doesn't make sense and his origins exist by a bs time paradox but watch the video pls

[Cipher]

Are there, though? How do you explain the Cell thing?

I was going to say there was a three-timeline theory that addressed it, but now that I'm walking through it again, I still don't see a way to avoid winding up with at least four distinct Trunks. If you really wanted to explain that line in-universe, though, there could be:

An original Trunks who goes back in time but doesn't introduce sweeping changes outside of killing Cold and Freeza. What happens to him after that would be unknown. The butterfly-effect changes of his presence would lead to Cell's timeline.

In the new timeline, Trunks goes to the past (creating the "unseen" timeline) and at the very least manages to find a way to defeat the androids in the future. Cell kills him and steals his time machine. This timeline's history would include "original" Trunks killing Cold and Freeza as part of its history. For whatever reason, Trunks would never be aware of that and always assume Goku killed them.

Then we get the main timeline and the "good" future where Trunks kills Cell as a result of Cell's interference.

That's ... super gross, and requires a ton of janky explanations, and you wind up with five timelines at a minimum. But it technically works and doesn't violate anything.

watch the video

no

[TheUltimateNinja]

Are there, though? How do you explain the Cell thing?

I was going to say there was a three-timeline theory that addressed it, but now that I'm walking through it again, I still don't see a way to avoid winding up with at least four distinct Trunks. If you really wanted to explain that line in-universe, though, there could be:

An original Trunks who goes back in time but doesn't introduce sweeping changes outside of killing Cold and Freeza. What happens to him after that would be unknown. The butterfly-effect changes of his presence would lead to Cell's timeline.

In the new timeline, Trunks goes to the past (creating the "unseen" timeline) and at the very least manages to find a way to defeat the androids in the future. Cell kills him and steals his time machine. This timeline's history would include "original" Trunks killing Cold and Freeza as part of its history. For whatever reason, Trunks would never be aware of that and always assume Goku killed them.

Then we get the main timeline and the "good" future where Trunks kills Cell as a result of Cell's interference.

That's ... super gross and you wind up with five timelines at a minimum. But it technically works and doesn't violate anything.

This explanation doesn't make much sense, why would Trunks go back in time just to kill Cold and Frieza when Goku did it himself? The reason Bulma invented the time machine and sent him back in the first place was so that he could give Goku the antidote and warn them about the androids to at least give them a fighting chance.

Also, the "original" Trunks would definitely encounter the androids regardless of any changes to the timeline since Gero had already started developing them a long time ago. Also, he started working on Cell back in the Saiyan Arc, I don't see how he wouldn't come to exist in the original Trunks' timeline as well.

It's implied that Trunks managed to defeat the androids by deactivating them in Cell's timeline, if that's the case he must have discovered the blueprints like he did in our timeline, and if so it makes no sense that he ignored Cell's incubation tank that was right next to them.

[Basaku]

If we exclude Cold/Freeza thing, and pass it as a slight mistake on Toriyama's part, then Cell saga need 4 timelines at minimum to function logically. Trunks (1st timeline) goes back in time, splits it (2nd timeline). Then he returns, gets killed by Cell. Cell travels back in time and splits time line again (3rd timeline), duplicating Future Trunks and his future as well (4th timeline).

[Cipher]

This explanation doesn't make much sense, why would Trunks go back in time just to kill Cold and Frieza when Goku did it himself? The reason Bulma invented the time machine and sent him back in the first place was so that he could give Goku the antidote and warn them about the androids to at least give them a fighting chance.

Also, the "original" Trunks would definitely encounter the androids regardless of any changes to the timeline since Gero had already started developing them a long time ago. Also, he started working on Cell back in the Saiyan Arc, I don't see how he wouldn't come to exist in the original Trunks' timeline as well.

It's implied that Trunks managed to defeat the androids by deactivating them in Cell's timeline, if that's the case he must have discovered the blueprints like he did in our timeline, and if so it makes no sense that he ignored Cell's incubation tank that was right next to them.

The argument for the first point would be that the medicine and the warning were all part of the butterfly-effect changes ushered in by the first Trunks' intervention.

I'm not remotely arguing for that reading. I write the Trunks line off as an error. I was just saying that, technically, even though you can line everything up in-universe, it isn't preferable to simply writing certain elements off as mistakes.

Ditto Black's dialogue about losing to Goku this arc (or at least the implication that it happened under identical circumstances to the match we saw).

If we exclude Cold/Freeza thing, and pass it as a slight mistake on Toriyama's part, then Cell saga need 4 timelines at minimum to function logically. Trunks (1st timeline) goes back in time, splits it (2nd timeline). Then he returns, gets killed by Cell. Cell travels back in time and splits time line again (3rd timeline), duplicating Future Trunks and his future as well (4th timeline).

Just to be clear, this is 100% my actual take.

[Zephyr]

If one were desperate for an in-universe explanation, wouldn't it suffice to just chalk the line up to Cell making a mistake?

[Basaku]

Ditto Black's dialogue about losing to Goku this arc (or at least the implication that it happened under identical circumstances to the match we saw).

It could even be explined that Zamasu still watched U6 tournament on GodTube which already happened anyway and through this got involved with Goku and blah blah. But the point is that Super's Future Trunks saga makes it a distinct plot point that this time there's literal time travelling going on and changing of past involved. Black's comment on fighting Goku doesn't even matter. There's a whole plot point being made about time ring protecting him from getting erased despite Beerus killing Zamasu. Granpa paradoxes and all unfortunately. At least there's a another (3rd by now lol) present-timeline created when Beerus kills Zamasu which sorta salvages this from complete logical loop.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

If one were desperate for an in-universe explanation, wouldn't it suffice to just chalk the line up to Cell making a mistake?

Cell couldn't have made that mistake, he wouldn't have known about that unless he was from a timeline where Trunks had already come back.

[TheUltimateNinja]

I'm not remotely arguing for that reading. I write the Trunks line off as an error. I was just saying that, technically, even though you can line everything up in-universe, it isn't preferable to simply writing certain elements off as mistakes.

If we exclude Cold/Freeza thing, and pass it as a slight mistake on Toriyama's part, then Cell saga need 4 timelines at minimum to function logically. Trunks (1st timeline) goes back in time, splits it (2nd timeline). Then he returns, gets killed by Cell. Cell travels back in time and splits time line again (3rd timeline), duplicating Future Trunks and his future as well (4th timeline).

Just to be clear, this is 100% my actual take.

I'm well aware that you don't actually believe this, however you did say it could be explained in-universe, though it would make things more complicated than they need to be. My point it is that no interpretation, no matter how complex, is logically consistent and any attempt to explain that line away in-universe requires some serious leaps in logic.

This explanation doesn't make much sense, why would Trunks go back in time just to kill Cold and Frieza when Goku did it himself? The reason Bulma invented the time machine and sent him back in the first place was so that he could give Goku the antidote and warn them about the androids to at least give them a fighting chance.

The argument for the first point would be that the medicine and the warning were all part of the butterfly-effect changes ushered in by the first Trunks' intervention.

That's not the point, there's no reason for Trunks to go back in the first place. Bulma only created the time machine when things had become apocalyptic, the most dire of scenarios. Assuming there's no androids and no heart virus in the original timeline, why would Trunks ever even go back, especially for something as minor as beating Frieza and Cold and then doing nothing else?

[Basaku]

But he doesn't even say it in the manga. It's just a manga panel of Freeza killed Trunks-sword-style when Cell discusses his past that is likely the source of the whole anime dialogue.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

But he doesn't even say it in the manga. It's just a manga panel of Freeza killed Trunks-sword-style when Cell discusses his past that is likely the source of the whole anime dialogue.

The implication is still heavy enough to assume that the mistake is present, unless I'm totally misremembering. I should check, but meh.

[TheUltimateNinja]

But he doesn't even say it in the manga. It's just a manga panel of Freeza killed Trunks-sword-style when Cell discusses his past that is likely the source of the whole anime dialogue.

Cold's in that panel as well, and their corpses are clearly depicted as having been killed by Trunks, Frieza sliced in half and Cold with a hole in his chest.

Also, Cell says they could have gotten Trunks' samples as well, but they already had enough Saiyan DNA.

[Basaku]

But he doesn't even say it in the manga. It's just a manga panel of Freeza killed Trunks-sword-style when Cell discusses his past that is likely the source of the whole anime dialogue.

The implication is still heavy enough to assume that the mistake is present, unless I'm totally misremembering. I should check, but meh.

It is an implication, but could be explained in various ways. Toriyama was feeling lazy so he just did same Freeza death. Cell was referring to newborn Trunks that could've been used as a source of DNA (the robots were still active at that time) had he knew the power Trunks would turn out to have, displayed in acts such as killing Freeza. Etc

Also, Cell says they could have gotten Trunks' samples as well, but they already had enough Saiyan DNA.

Well yes, it works with newborn Trunks as well, he's already alive.

[Cipher]

If one were desperate for an in-universe explanation, wouldn't it suffice to just chalk the line up to Cell making a mistake?

Cell doesn't make mistakes. He's perfect.

That's not the point, there's no reason for Trunks to go back in the first place. Bulma only created the time machine when things had become apocalyptic, the most dire of scenarios. Assuming there's no androids and no heart virus in the original timeline, why would Trunks ever even go back, especially for something as minor as beating Frieza and Cold and then doing nothing else?

Technically he could have just been sent back to find Gero's plans. Or he failed. I don't know. There's no answer I can give you that wouldn't be super obtuse and dumb, but as a technicality, it could all work. Regardless, I think we agree that all those readings are more or less junk; so obtuse they introduce more problems than they solve. Given the options, I'm always more willing to just say Toriyama (or Toei, in the case of the most recent arc) made a mistake.

It could even be explined that Zamasu still watched U6 tournament on GodTube which already happened anyway and through this got involved with Goku and blah blah.

There are plenty of ways Goku and Zamasu could wind up meeting and sparring without the investigation into Black. That's obviously not what the scene where he explains his origins to us seems to intend though. Personally, yeah, I either assume he's talking about a different scenario despite what the footage implies, or just write the whole thing off as an error because ain't nobody got time for that.

But the point is that Super's Future Trunks saga makes it a distinct plot point that this time there's literal time travelling going on and changing of past involved. Black's comment on fighting Goku doesn't even matter. There's a whole plot point being made about time ring protecting him from getting erased despite Beerus killing Zamasu. Granpa paradoxes and all unfortunately.

Ugh, I hate that. Ignoring the problems of attributing the split to Beerus alone (which, whatever, we discussed it earlier in the thread), Black crediting the time ring with his survival is so ... uuugh.

My personal "let's avoid errors and weird grandfather paradoxes that don't fit any internally consistent model of time travel" explanation is that the time ring is what "saved" him only in the sense that it's what he used to jump over to Trunks' timeline. As a part of Trunks' history, he can't simply be erased by changes Trunks introduces in the past. It'd be a paradox, and paradoxes in Dragon Ball lead to splinter timelines rather than overwritten events.

As far as what the anime gives us at face value, I'm of the opinion that the staff at Toei simply didn't much understand or care to dive into how everything logically had to shake out. It's a shame, but oh well.

You can make the face-value explanation "work," but it involves bending Dragon Ball's established models of time travel in the extreme.

My "clean" take on the time-travel this arc:

In the original timeline (i.e. the main timeline sans Trunks showing up this arc), Zamasu finds out about Goku, maybe they fight under different circumstances, despite what the anime shows us, he steals Goku's body and takes off for Trunks' timeline.

Trunks returns to the past to seek help against Black, unwittingly leading to a new timeline as his presence leads to the prevention of Black's creation (all versions of the series, as well as official material, attribute the splinter to Beerus rather than Trunks, which ... whatever).

Black isn't affected by Beerus killing Zamasu not because of any properties inherent to the time ring, but because he's already in Trunks' world and the events leading up to present-Zamasu's death have all insured it's a new branch of history contradictory to what Black remembers. No different than any other timeline split in the series. Present Zamasu doesn't affect Black for the same reason getting rid of the present androids wouldn't have removed them from Trunks' future.

[Basaku]

Ugh, I hate that. Ignoring the problems of attributing the split to Beerus alone (which, whatever, we discussed it earlier in the thread), Black crediting the time ring with his survival is so ... uuugh.

Yup. But it is what it is. That's always the problem of having literal time travel/bending. Biggest brains on the planet can't figure out granpa paradoxes, let alone manga/anime writers

[TheUltimateNinja]

But he doesn't even say it in the manga. It's just a manga panel of Freeza killed Trunks-sword-style when Cell discusses his past that is likely the source of the whole anime dialogue.

The implication is still heavy enough to assume that the mistake is present, unless I'm totally misremembering. I should check, but meh.

It is an implication, but could be explained in various ways. Toriyama was feeling lazy so he just did same Freeza death. Cell was referring to newborn Trunks that could've been used as a source of DNA (the robots were still active at that time) had he knew the power Trunks would turn out to have, displayed in acts such as killing Freeza. Etc

Also, Cell says they could have gotten Trunks' samples as well, but they already had enough Saiyan DNA.

Well yes, it works with newborn Trunks as well, he's already alive.

In context it's clear he's referring to the Trunks that fought Cold and Cell. He says it's lucky that Cold and Frieza came to Earth so they could take DNA from them too, and in the same panel says they could have obtained DNA from Trunks as well.

[Zephyr]

If one were desperate for an in-universe explanation, wouldn't it suffice to just chalk the line up to Cell making a mistake?

Cell doesn't make mistakes. He's perfect.

Not when he's dumping exposition all over Piccolo's chest he's not.

If one were desperate for an in-universe explanation, wouldn't it suffice to just chalk the line up to Cell making a mistake?

Cell couldn't have made that mistake, he wouldn't have known about that unless he was from a timeline where Trunks had already come back.

He could have been trying to connect the dots without putting much thought into things. But yeah, even that's stretching it quite a bit.