At first I didn't care, but now I really wish for Toei to animate Moro arc...

[Skar]

I don't remember characters being off in the anime.

And DevilKing is right. Characters in the manga barely get to shine if at all. Kuririn and Tenshinhan were an embarrassment in the manga ToP.

They've been discussed to death for the last few years on here. If you don't feel anyone was regressed or any characterization was off in the 131 episodes of the anime then I guess I'll agree to disagree. I'm still trying to understand what makes you think Toei will "fix" any of the criticism you had. It would be different if you're saying these are additions you'd like to see but you're making it sound like these changes will save the saga. If they adapt it as it is now, it's likely going to be over 20 episodes at least so dragging it out even more with more fan service wouldn't feel like an improvement.[/quote]

[LoganForkHands73]

Maybe Moro could be salvaged with charismatic voice acting. I wonder who would be up for the part?

Since people have been double down on the comparisons between Perfect Voro and Cell, I say they should put all their chips on the table and have Norio Wakamoto do it

I was gonna say, even before the fusion happened that I know what Moro will sound like in the anime before he ever gets cast. There's a certain "voice type" that anime tends to go with for that type of villain, usually old and gravelly. I was straining for an example and then I realised it was exactly like how Norio Wakamoto sounds.

It won't be him because he's too old and already has a big part in DB (though from what I've heard, apparently he's gotten really unenthusiastic about voicing Cell lately) but it'll be someone who sounds like him.

To be honest, I'd prefer it to not be Norio. It's interesting you say he's gotten unenthusiastic, because that really shows in his performance throughout FighterZ and other projects. The dude tries too hard to sound gravelly and sinister that he's barely audible, so he just comes off as bored. Although I have mixed feelings on the English voice cast, Dameon Clarke does a far better job in that game even while sounding like Plankton from SpongeBob.

[Magnificent Ponta]

Characters have been written very poorly in the whole manga not just in this arc.

Take Piccolo for example.

Manga Piccolo in the U6 arc is very summisive, he obeys Goku to the letter and never tries to win against Frost. He even says this stupidity:

I am not Namekian. I am the reincarnation of Demon King Piccolo.

Just... WHAT?

In the anime he actually tries to win and says no such nonsense.

During the recruitment chapter for the ToP, Goku has to actually beg Piccolo to participate. Piccolo is a martial artist, he would want to join and more importantly knows he needs to, exactly as the anime protrayed.

This isn't a mischaracterisation on Toyotarou's part. Piccolo isn't submissive at all here - he asks what chance he has, and Goku says he has none. That exchange is basically a replay of what they say to each other in the Cell arc after Piccolo has been in the Room of Spirit and Time - Piccolo being told (and knowing for himself) that he's outmatched isn't any more 'out of character' than it was in the Cell arc.

But Piccolo, characteristically, bridles at Goku and Frost looking down on him. The reason that he calls himself the reincarnation of the Demon King (apart from the fact that it's just true - and, again, it's a thing he blurted out in the Cell arc once just to rebuke Kuririn, so why is it an issue here?) is in response to Vados wondering whether he might be a little bit more than just some Namekian - Piccolo uses the 'Demon King' line to confirm this and emphasise, basically, that he's no pushover, but is actually a big deal who should be taken seriously.

Then, he says while he can't win, Frost can't either, and gives the fight a shot that ends up way better than Goku's prediction (even if he has to fight defensively to do it), such that Frost has to cheat to win. I don't see how this is either a mischaracterisation of Piccolo or a negative showing; being able to go toe-to-toe with someone way stronger than you is not a thing that typically happens in Dragon Ball.

Now during the Moro arc Piccolo acts really stupid while talking about Vegeta with Goku. The guy literally gets amnesia in that chapter.

This has been gone into at length over in the manga thread (both Piccolo saying Vegeta doesn't usually misread his opponents and Piccolo saying Vegeta owes much of his change of heart to Goku), with the principal conclusions being that, while Piccolo is being very on-the-nose and it's not an especially artful bit of dialogue, he's basically correct. I don't see the problem you're apparently seeing with characterisation here.

And again, I don't see any reason to expect the anime to "fix" what you think is broken here, or that any changes will go in the direction you want.

other characters have bad portrayals like Tenshinhan not being able to trash talk that U7 Metalmen

It's a gag based on Tenshinhan's earnest, super straight-laced attitude. And frankly, he wasn't that good at it even when he was a 'bad' guy.

or Vegeta's whole "I don't need a master anymore" nonsense just to go and get trained by another person 2 arcs later.

Vegeta typically isn't trained by others - it's just the truth of it. He doesn't say he doesn't need a master to learn things, he says that learning from others is something that doesn't suit him - as far as he's concerned, he's truer to himself when he does things his own way. What about that is a mischaracterisation? As far as I can tell, it's just obviously true, and Whis agrees.

That piece of dialogue is where Vegeta finishes his commitment to forging his own, totally independent path rather than just chasing Goku by doing the same stuff Goku does. While it ends up as something he has to start learning from others, again (which he has a visible distaste for when he's contemplating it), it's because there are bigger things at stake and he sees the need to do it to overcome his problems. But it seems clear that, having been pointed in a particular direction, he'll be returning to train himself, as a "prodigy of hard work". Again, I don't see what's out of character here.

And DevilKing is right. Characters in the manga barely get to shine if at all. Kuririn and Tenshinhan were an embarrassment in the manga ToP.

With respect, he didn't say that - he said there's no point in showcasing the Human characters at this stage. Which seems to be the opposite of what you're saying.

Moro is the shining example of Toyo's character problem, been the main villain since 2018 and it's almost 2021, and he has no character to speak of at all outside of being evil.

Do you complain a lot about Piccolo Daimao "just being evil" and having nothing more to him? I don't think you do, or indeed that anyone does, particularly, and arguably Piccolo's rationale is much less relatable than Moro's. Piccolo was evil because he... liked 'being evil' and he wanted others to be evil. Moro's doing what he does to eat, but he enjoys it and is callous about it, which is why he's evil. Imagine Piccolo Daimao, but everything he does is done through needing to eat, and the way he sees everything is as food or as instruments to make more food. That's Moro, basically. And I don't see what the problem is with it.

I don't get where this "Moro's boring because he's just evil" talking point came from; this is Dragon Ball - none of your villains have particularly deep and meaningful motivations that you can engage with (or even superficial ones, for that matter). They're villains. Moro isn't really much different, so I don't see why he's being singled out for criticism as remarkably less interesting than the others.

And again, I don't see what the anime would really be likely to meaningfully do to change whatever people don't like about it.

[ZombieVito]

Characters have been written very poorly in the whole manga not just in this arc.

Take Piccolo for example.

Manga Piccolo in the U6 arc is very summisive, he obeys Goku to the letter and never tries to win against Frost. He even says this stupidity:

I am not Namekian. I am the reincarnation of Demon King Piccolo.

Just... WHAT?

In the anime he actually tries to win and says no such nonsense.

During the recruitment chapter for the ToP, Goku has to actually beg Piccolo to participate. Piccolo is a martial artist, he would want to join and more importantly knows he needs to, exactly as the anime protrayed.

This isn't a mischaracterisation on Toyotarou's part. Piccolo isn't submissive at all here - he asks what chance he has, and Goku says he has none. That exchange is basically a replay of what they say to each other in the Cell arc after Piccolo has been in the Room of Spirit and Time - Piccolo being told (and knowing for himself) that he's outmatched isn't any more 'out of character' than it was in the Cell arc.

But Piccolo, characteristically, bridles at Goku and Frost looking down on him. The reason that he calls himself the reincarnation of the Demon King (apart from the fact that it's just true - and, again, it's a thing he blurted out in the Cell arc once just to rebuke Kuririn, so why is it an issue here?) is in response to Vados wondering whether he might be a little bit more than just some Namekian - Piccolo uses the 'Demon King' line to confirm this and emphasise, basically, that he's no pushover, but is actually a big deal who should be taken seriously.

Then, he says while he can't win, Frost can't either, and gives the fight a shot that ends up way better than Goku's prediction (even if he has to fight defensively to do it), such that Frost has to cheat to win. I don't see how this is either a mischaracterisation of Piccolo or a negative showing; being able to go toe-to-toe with someone way stronger than you is not a thing that typically happens in Dragon Ball.

Now during the Moro arc Piccolo acts really stupid while talking about Vegeta with Goku. The guy literally gets amnesia in that chapter.

This has been gone into at length over in the manga thread (both Piccolo saying Vegeta doesn't usually misread his opponents and Piccolo saying Vegeta owes much of his change of heart to Goku), with the principal conclusions being that, while Piccolo is being very on-the-nose and it's not an especially artful bit of dialogue, he's basically correct. I don't see the problem you're apparently seeing with characterisation here.

And again, I don't see any reason to expect the anime to "fix" what you think is broken here, or that any changes will go in the direction you want.

other characters have bad portrayals like Tenshinhan not being able to trash talk that U7 Metalmen

It's a gag based on Tenshinhan's earnest, super straight-laced attitude. And frankly, he wasn't that good at it even when he was a 'bad' guy.

or Vegeta's whole "I don't need a master anymore" nonsense just to go and get trained by another person 2 arcs later.

Vegeta typically isn't trained by others - it's just the truth of it. He doesn't say he doesn't need a master to learn things, he says that learning from others is something that doesn't suit him - as far as he's concerned, he's truer to himself when he does things his own way. What about that is a mischaracterisation? As far as I can tell, it's just obviously true, and Whis agrees.

That piece of dialogue is where Vegeta finishes his commitment to forging his own, totally independent path rather than just chasing Goku by doing the same stuff Goku does. While it ends up as something he has to start learning from others, again (which he has a visible distaste for when he's contemplating it), it's because there are bigger things at stake and he sees the need to do it to overcome his problems. But it seems clear that, having been pointed in a particular direction, he'll be returning to train himself, as a "prodigy of hard work". Again, I don't see what's out of character here.

And DevilKing is right. Characters in the manga barely get to shine if at all. Kuririn and Tenshinhan were an embarrassment in the manga ToP.

With respect, he didn't say that - he said there's no point in showcasing the Human characters at this stage. Which seems to be the opposite of what you're saying.

Moro is the shining example of Toyo's character problem, been the main villain since 2018 and it's almost 2021, and he has no character to speak of at all outside of being evil.

Do you complain a lot about Piccolo Daimao "just being evil" and having nothing more to him? I don't think you do, or indeed that anyone does, particularly, and arguably Piccolo's rationale is much less relatable than Moro's. Piccolo was evil because he... liked 'being evil' and he wanted others to be evil. Moro's doing what he does to eat, but he enjoys it and is callous about it, which is why he's evil. Imagine Piccolo Daimao, but everything he does is done through needing to eat, and the way he sees everything is as food or as instruments to make more food. That's Moro, basically. And I don't see what the problem is with it.

I don't get where this "Moro's boring because he's just evil" talking point came from; this is Dragon Ball - none of your villains have particularly deep and meaningful motivations that you can engage with (or even superficial ones, for that matter). They're villains. Moro isn't really much different, so I don't see why he's being singled out for criticism as remarkably less interesting than the others.

And again, I don't see what the anime would really be likely to meaningfully do to change whatever people don't like about it.

Piccolo is being summisive. Goku tells him to drop Frost's stamina and he obeys like the good little boy he is. In the anime he actually tries to win.

He fucking says Daimao was "great". The worst period of his existence when he murdered countless people and terrorized a planet and he calls it "great". Utter nonsense.

Piccolo literally tells a lie. Vegeta missreads his opponents a lot. It's poor writing.

He trash talked just fine in DB, he should have no problem doing the same here. One of Toyo's many idiotic ideas.

And what did Vegeta do after doing that? Go to the exact planet Goku went and get trained there. Brilliant. Thankfully Toei didn't do that nonsense in the ToP so Vegeta doing this in the anime won't be a problem.

Thankfully the superior anime version of the ToP made this notion that the human characters don't matter be ridiculous. They even fixed Roshi.

[Skar]

Thankfully the superior anime version of the ToP made this notion that the human characters don't matter be ridiculous. They even fixed Roshi.

Are you judging it based on which version had more human fan service or contribution that made a difference? In the anime, they eliminated some fodder contestants that would've been taken out by any of the other U7 members. In an interview, it was said that Toriyama didn't specify why he chose the humans over Goten and Trunks. If those two kids switched with two of the humans, I don't think much would've changed since they could've easily eliminated all the weak contestants the humans defeated. In the manga, Roshi's contribution had to do with his wisdom and he helped Goku achieve UI.

The humans all retired from fighting in DBZ so I don't care for more fan service. It's fun to watch and I liked Yamcha joining the fight but I'm not going to judge the story for not lack of fan service or not having enough of it. My favorite stories in DBS were BoG and Broly and one happened to have them lose to Beerus in a few seconds while the other didn't have them appear at all. DBS: Broly could've had Freeza or Paragus bring some henchmen for the humans to fight against but that wouldn't have improved the story and only given the humans something to do. It's the same with most of Moro's henchmen.

[Magnificent Ponta]

Piccolo is being summisive. Goku tells him to drop Frost's stamina and he obeys like the good little boy he is. In the anime he actually tries to win.

When Goku suggests that's a good play, Piccolo bridles at it and then things proceed as I described. But make no mistake - Piccolo doesn't fight defensively because Goku tells him to, he does it because Frost doesn't afford him any choice; Vegeta sees the need to comment on the fact that Piccolo is stuck on the defensive, so it's clear he's not just 'following orders' or some plan handed him by Goku, else Vegeta wouldn't say it like it's a problem. Piccolo's doing it because he's fighting smart. It's a decent showing, and perfectly in character.

He fucking says Daimao was "great". The worst period of his existence when he murdered countless people and terrorized a planet and he calls it "great". Utter nonsense.

I'm sorry, I'm not certain which piece of dialogue you're referring to - but in any case, you must be fully aware that it's in Piccolo's proper title: 'Dai-ma-ou' quite literally means 'Great-Demon-King'. Saying that using the title in its most literal sense is some sort of character(isation) assassination is a real reach.

Even if you're referencing some different instance where Piccolo definitely refers approvingly of the Great Demon King (which I do not recall), that's hardly out of character either. Take, for example, the Cell arc again. When Vegeta offers to kill Android #20 for him, Piccolo talks up his past as evil incarnate as a reason why he's up to the job. I don't think Piccolo has ever expressed remorse or regret for this past, either.

Piccolo literally tells a lie. Vegeta missreads his opponents a lot. It's poor writing.

Vegeta hardly ever misreads an opponent once they've started fighting (and he is fighting Moro when Piccolo says this, don't forget). Vegeta often has faulty assumptions about his opponents (mostly due to things he can't reasonably be expected to know about them), but even at his most bone-headed, such as against Cell, he's able to tell when Cell isn't taking the fight seriously - i.e., he judges Cell's power correctly as far greater than he's shown in the fight (even though there's even more power than anyone suspects). Cell's the most egregious mistake Vegeta makes in the series, and even then he can judge correctly.

He trash talked just fine in DB, he should have no problem doing the same here. One of Toyo's many idiotic ideas.

I looked it up, and in the Budokai, he doesn't get beyond "sluggish", "fools", and "imbecile". Given that this is the Budokai where Yamcha starts off by giving Ten the finger, it's not a particularly impressive spread of insults. The most insulting he gets is with Piccolo (you know, the gratest evil the world has ever known), for whom Ten manages to raise his game and call an "arrogant dog".

If that's the most insulting he gets, I can only agree with Chaozu that he "sucks" at doing it. Even taking these facts out of account, I'd say acting like the gag is a big deal in any case is a serious overreaction. Frankly, it should hardly even register.

And what did Vegeta do after doing that? Go to the exact planet Goku went and get trained there. Brilliant. Thankfully Toei didn't do that nonsense in the ToP so Vegeta doing this in the anime won't be a problem.

Addressing the issue once again, the fact that Goku has been there doesn't mean Vegeta's chasing him by doing just the same stuff - Goku just learns one thing; he doesn't grasp the broader principle of Spirit Control. This development sets Vegeta and his power on a completely different trajectory to Goku's own going forward.

But what do you base this assumption on? Why will Toei change this? Because you personally want them to? You keep saying Toei will do this or that, but what's the pattern of action that leads you to deduce Toei will do something significantly different on this point? Because the way I see it, Vegeta's trip to Yardrat to learn Spirit Control is a pretty pivotal element of the story. Anything else is just wishful thinking.

Thankfully the superior anime version of the ToP made this notion that the human characters don't matter be ridiculous. They even fixed Roshi.

If we're going by characterisation, the anime had Roshi threaten an opponent with rape during the Tournament of Power. How is any time the manga's been 'off' with its characterisation (and I've yet to see a properly convincing case) even comparable to that?

If it's just showings you care about, then how is taking out a couple of scrubs, firing off Mafubas left and right and then outliving your usefulness and becoming a liability to your teammates a better showing than what Roshi did in the manga? He actually taught Goku something - you know, combining his character as a teacher with an extremely impressive showing way beyond the bounds of his own ki power. How does the anime even compare to that?

[The Undying]

Characters in the manga barely get to shine if at all. Kuririn and Tenshinhan were an embarrassment in the manga ToP.

This is such an abhorrent take on the manga that, despite me addressing it several times at length in the manga thread, I feel compelled to respond here as well.

Giving any of these side characters "time to shine" is nonsense. It never benefits the story in any measurable capacity other than grinding its pacing to a halt, dragging it out with excessive padding and pumping shallow fanservice at the expense of important plot points. The manga doesn't need to pretend Kuririn and Tenshinhan are strong characters in a series that had its power scale inflated several dimensions beyond their league; instead, during the Tournament of Power, it cleverly takes their lack of strength and uses that to emphasize Freeza's character, highlighting his underhanded tactics and plans to conserve energy for stronger opponents - both of which come into play later in the climax. They, like everyone else, are tools for the story. They're owed absolutely nothing outside of their roles facilitating that story.

Contrast this with the anime's portrayal, where characters are regressed to caricatures of themselves as they redundantly "regain their confidence" at least two times in the span of a few episodes, where Freeza's sneaky personality is eschewed in favor of derivative flashy moments that completely mischaracterize his approach to situations, where Roshi is a borderline rapist, where Vegeta constantly flip-flops on whether he wants to assist Goku, where Jiren is utterly incoherent (and also incompetent) as an antagonist, where countless episodes mindlessly dedicate themselves to fodder opponents with no bearing on the underlying themes of the arc, and so on. Nothing about this is substantive storytelling. It's pure fluff at best and amateur level characterization at worst.

To be quite frank, I don't trust Toei to fix anything. Given their track record, and given their tendency to put too many cooks in the kitchen, any adaptation they attempt will probably be vastly worse. I'm willing to bet they'll tirelessly expand on the Earthlings fighting Moro's goons for several consecutive episodes. Pointless filler is their whole M.O., after all.

If you want characters getting """moments""" in lieu of a properly structured narrative, there's an abundance of DB videogames you can play. Xenoverse and Heroes are particularly good at this.

[Grimlock]

And Dragon Ball Super is excelent at that. What harm would cause if Piccolo got some cool moment in the tournament against Universe 6? What harm would it bring if he had actually contributed and eliminated at least one participant? XV2 gave him such moment before his "inevitable" (?) surrender, that series didn't even come close to that.

[ZombieVito]

And Dragon Ball Super is excelent at that. What harm would cause if Piccolo got some cool moment in the tournament against Universe 6? What harm would it bring if he had actually contributed and eliminated at least one participant? XV2 gave him such moment before his "inevitable" (?) surrender, that series didn't even come close to that.

Toei at least tried to fix that nonsense with Piccolo trying and having a real shot at winning even if he was destined to fail. They respected the character. Toyo couldn't even be bothered to give half a chapter to Piccolo vs Frost. Awful.

I loved how Toei treated the extended cast in the ToP. Roshi's episode was amazing and he actually grew as a character. Manga Roshi is still a creeper.

[Skar]

Toei at least tried to fix that nonsense with Piccolo trying and having a real shot at winning even if he was destined to fail. They respected the character. Toyo couldn't even be bothered to give half a chapter to Piccolo vs Frost. Awful.

I loved how Toei treated the extended cast in the ToP. Roshi's episode was amazing and he actually grew as a character. Manga Roshi is still a creeper.

By ignoring most of the above comments and making the same argument, you've really swayed my opinion. I am now convinced that Toei will fix the Moro arc by adding fan service that Toyotaro could only dream of. While they're at it, I hope they fix DBS: Broly because no one besides Goku and Vegeta were given time to shine. Piccolo only helping teach the Fusion Dance? A travesty! Gohan and other Z fighters not showing up to fight? An embarrassment.

[LoganForkHands73]

Thankfully the superior anime version of the ToP made this notion that the human characters don't matter be ridiculous. They even fixed Roshi.

If we're going by characterisation, the anime had Roshi threaten an opponent with rape during the Tournament of Power. How is any time the manga's been 'off' with its characterisation (and I've yet to see a properly convincing case) even comparable to that?

If it's just showings you care about, then how is taking out a couple of scrubs, firing off Mafubas left and right and then outliving your usefulness and becoming a liability to your teammates a better showing than what Roshi did in the manga? He actually taught Goku something - you know, combining his character as a teacher with an extremely impressive showing way beyond the bounds of his own ki power. How does the anime even compare to that?

Minor point but I feel that there's a false dichotomy at play here. Roshi is just as bad in the manga continuity, even if it wasn't shown in the Universe Survival arc. In the Moro arc, he merrily goes off to chase the female criminal trio and is very heavily implied to have sexually molested them, probably among other things, off-panel. They all come back covering themselves indignantly. Later, it's shown that he literally can't function when fighting them unless he's blindfolded. In both cases, it's the influence of Toei's Roshi creeping through.

As horrific and indefensible as that scene in the anime is, I think Roshi was otherwise handled quite well overall. I marginally prefer his role in the manga, but the anime equally highlighted his skill, experience and pragmatism in a tournament surrounded by far stronger opponents. He's a total underdog. Yeah, he spams Mafuba a lot, but in doing so he shows the effectiveness of an awesome classic technique. He uses it to decimate Universe 4's ranks and humiliates their champion Ganos, essentially their "Goku", with pure efficient footwork. His rivalry with Universe 4 felt fitting, since their whole thing is fighting with trickery and deception, but Roshi is more than capable of playing their game and outsmarting them at every turn.

While I think Roshi's contribution to Goku's progression in the manga is more important, his actual showing is less memorable. He barely shows up for most of it until that moment against Jiren, having basically survived that long through sheer luck and the Power of Off-PanelTM. He gets a good kill against Kahseral but there's not much more to speak of. I do genuinely like the Jiren encounter, but it does stretch believability by quite a wide margin. He has some outlying feats in the anime, such as sparring against Frost (but even then, Frost was clearly superior), but they don't match that.

[ZombieVito]

Toei at least tried to fix that nonsense with Piccolo trying and having a real shot at winning even if he was destined to fail. They respected the character. Toyo couldn't even be bothered to give half a chapter to Piccolo vs Frost. Awful.

I loved how Toei treated the extended cast in the ToP. Roshi's episode was amazing and he actually grew as a character. Manga Roshi is still a creeper.

By ignoring most of the above comments and making the same argument, you've really swayed my opinion. I am now convinced that Toei will fix the Moro arc by adding fan service that Toyotaro could only dream of. While they're at it, I hope they fix DBS: Broly because no one besides Goku and Vegeta were given time to shine. Piccolo only helping teach the Fusion Dance? A travesty! Gohan and other Z fighters not showing up to fight? An embarrassment.

Gohan not showing up doesn't make a lick of sense. Truly a negative. If Toei adapts the movie for Super 2.0, I'm sure they will fix it.

[Grimlock]

Toei at least tried to fix that nonsense with Piccolo trying and having a real shot at winning even if he was destined to fail. They respected the character. Toyo couldn't even be bothered to give half a chapter to Piccolo vs Frost. Awful.

Define "respect" because the last thing I would expect from Piccolo was to surrender (without doing anything) just make way for Vegeta.

Y'all point at games as if they were some sort of boogeyman of the franchise, but this is a bold move to make these days. In XV2, Piccolo surrendered after eliminating that yellow dude and putting up a good fight against Frost, did it cause any great impact that harmed the "narrative"? No. So no sane person would prefer or should accept what the series did, unless you love and want the "Goku and Vegeta show" more and more, which goes without saying it's a very sad situation.

[Magnificent Ponta]

Minor point but I feel that there's a false dichotomy at play here.

See, you're doing this thing called "thoughtful nuance" (successfully, I might add), and while I genuinely appreciate it and think a lot of what you say is fair and well-argued, you have to bear in mind that I'm debating with someone who is quite literally asserting that everything the manga does is terrible and everything the anime does is good, and therefore whatever the anime does next will "fix" the terrible manga, irrespective of what that might be.

While everyone has their preference and is allowed to like or hate what they please, his positions are sometimes so unbalanced as to be flatly dishonest. Saying that the manga characterisation of Roshi is bad characterisation because "he's a creeper" in it while arguing in the same breath that the anime somehow "fixes" Roshi, when he has an anime scene that can only be described as horrific when measured by the same criterion, is a fundamentally dishonest position - I'm not dichotomising by mentioning this, I'm keeping my interlocutor honest. I'm not arguing 'for' manga Roshi's perversions here; I'm simply arguing that he's not at all mischaracterised in the manga, given all we've seen of him in Dragon Ball so far.

I think Roshi was otherwise handled quite well overall.

That's fine - while I was oversimplifying, it was again as a rebuttal to a repeated assertion that Human's don't get respect or good showings in the manga, only the anime. And I find your reasoning for your statement well-expressed. Thank you for taking the time. However, I feel the need to comment on this little point below:

He barely shows up for most of it until that moment against Jiren, having basically survived that long through sheer luck and the Power of Off-PanelTM. He gets a good kill against Kahseral but there's not much more to speak of. I do genuinely like the Jiren encounter, but it does stretch believability by quite a wide margin.

I got the impression from Roshi's showing against Kahseral in particular that the reader is meant to infer that he's been quietly projecting his power with his pseudo-Ultra Instinct, in the same way that he does here, for the whole time and that's why he's survived up to this point. So, seeing that is meant to convey something of a revelation retrospectively, just like his showing against Jiren is a revelation prospectively. Just the way I read it.

[LoganForkHands73]

Minor point but I feel that there's a false dichotomy at play here.

See, you're doing this thing called "thoughtful nuance" (successfully, I might add), and while I genuinely appreciate it and think a lot of what you say is fair and well-argued, you have to bear in mind that I'm debating with someone who is quite literally asserting that everything the manga does is terrible and everything the anime does is good, and therefore whatever the anime does next will "fix" the terrible manga, irrespective of what that might be.

While everyone has their preference and is allowed to like or hate what they please, his positions are sometimes so unbalanced as to be flatly dishonest. Saying that the manga characterisation of Roshi is bad characterisation because "he's a creeper" in it while arguing in the same breath that the anime somehow "fixes" Roshi, when he has an anime scene that can only be described as horrific when measured by the same criterion, is a fundamentally dishonest position - I'm not dichotomising by mentioning this, I'm keeping my interlocutor honest. I'm not arguing 'for' manga Roshi's perversions here; I'm simply arguing that he's not at all mischaracterised in the manga, given all we've seen of him in Dragon Ball so far.

I think Roshi was otherwise handled quite well overall.

That's fine - while I was oversimplifying, it was again as a rebuttal to a repeated assertion that Human's don't get respect or good showings in the manga, only the anime. And I find your reasoning for your statement well-expressed. Thank you for taking the time. However, I feel the need to comment on this little point below:

He barely shows up for most of it until that moment against Jiren, having basically survived that long through sheer luck and the Power of Off-PanelTM. He gets a good kill against Kahseral but there's not much more to speak of. I do genuinely like the Jiren encounter, but it does stretch believability by quite a wide margin.

I got the impression from Roshi's showing against Kahseral in particular that the reader is meant to infer that he's been quietly projecting his power with his pseudo-Ultra Instinct, in the same way that he does here, for the whole time and that's why he's survived up to this point. So, seeing that is meant to convey something of a revelation retrospectively, just like his showing against Jiren is a revelation prospectively. Just the way I read it.

All clear man, good talk. Me saying the manga version is just as bad may have been a little harsh on the manga version considering his "THE IMPLICATION" scene with Caway in the anime is legitimately one of the most uncomfortable moments in Dragon Ball next to Videl vs. Spopovitch. I watched the scene again a few hours ago and yeeeeesh. Whoever thought that was okay to air needed a serious examination. But yeah, I still enjoyed both mediums' interpretation outside of that godawful scene.

About Kahseral and his pseudo UI, that's a really cool observation. I was pondering when writing my response, I always thought that Roshi must have gotten lucky and was hiding somewhere (where exactly on a completely flat arena, who knows), but he may have been secretly knocking off all the fighters whose eliminations we don't see as well. Speaking of Kahseral, one thing I definitely prefer in the manga is how the Pride Troopers are built up as such a threat due to their unmatched teamwork - only when they're separated do they become weaker. With very few exceptions, they almost never team up in the anime.

Your arguments against this dude have been really well made, keep up the good work.

[Skar]

Gohan not showing up doesn't make a lick of sense. Truly a negative. If Toei adapts the movie for Super 2.0, I'm sure they will fix it.

I was joking in my last comment so I'm not sure if you're serious here. In case you are, I have to ask again where you keep getting this notion that Toei will make any of these changes. The two movie retellings were just longer with worse animation and didn't give the other Z fighters a better showing. Based on how those retellings were handled, an anime adaption of DBS: Broly and the Moro arc will be almost identical with unnecessary filler.

[LoganForkHands73]

Gohan not showing up doesn't make a lick of sense. Truly a negative. If Toei adapts the movie for Super 2.0, I'm sure they will fix it.

I was joking in my last comment so I'm not sure if you're serious here. In case you are, I have to ask again where you keep getting this notion that Toei will make any of these changes. The two movie retellings were just longer with worse animation and didn't give the other Z fighters a better showing. Based on how those retellings were handled, an anime adaption of DBS: Broly and the Moro arc will be almost identical with unnecessary filler.

Exactly, I was about to address this. Gohan showing up in Super: Broly would literally add nothing, in the same way that Gotenks being forced into the Resurrection F arc added nothing.

In any case, I sincerely hope they've learned their lesson from movie adaptations, i.e. to never do them again. The only things I could see being expanded upon in Super: Broly are Freeza and Whis's fights against Broly, and perhaps Goku's half-baked character arc, but yeah, I doubt "Super 2.0" would actually add to these plot points in any meaningful capacity.

[Jackalope89]

Gohan not showing up doesn't make a lick of sense. Truly a negative. If Toei adapts the movie for Super 2.0, I'm sure they will fix it.

I was joking in my last comment so I'm not sure if you're serious here. In case you are, I have to ask again where you keep getting this notion that Toei will make any of these changes. The two movie retellings were just longer with worse animation and didn't give the other Z fighters a better showing. Based on how those retellings were handled, an anime adaption of DBS: Broly and the Moro arc will be almost identical with unnecessary filler.

Not sure about Moro, but the Broly film, while I enjoyed it, felt like it was missing a lot of stuff in the middle. The stuff we got was alright, but it felt like a lot was missing (which from Toriyama's original script, it was). So I wouldn't mind seeing that fleshed out more. Personally, at least.

[ZombieVito]

Gohan not showing up doesn't make a lick of sense. Truly a negative. If Toei adapts the movie for Super 2.0, I'm sure they will fix it.

I was joking in my last comment so I'm not sure if you're serious here. In case you are, I have to ask again where you keep getting this notion that Toei will make any of these changes. The two movie retellings were just longer with worse animation and didn't give the other Z fighters a better showing. Based on how those retellings were handled, an anime adaption of DBS: Broly and the Moro arc will be almost identical with unnecessary filler.

Toei fixed a lot of stuff for the RoF arc.

That dumb power level line from Freeza after being revived, having 3 wishes instead or 1 for Shenlong, the kids not being MIA, explaining why Boo isn't there and Goku powering down to base so Sorbet almost killing him made more sense.

We also got some nice bonuses like seeing more of Whis' training and the return of the best captain in the universe.

I can think on a lot of stuff Toei could fix for the Broly movie if they adapt it.

[Skar]

Not sure about Moro, but the Broly film, while I enjoyed it, felt like it was missing a lot of stuff in the middle. The stuff we got was alright, but it felt like a lot was missing (which from Toriyama's original script, it was). So I wouldn't mind seeing that fleshed out more. Personally, at least.

I wouldn't mind seeing it fleshed out more. Since Toei is taking their time, I think we'll have more consistent animation and less of a need for filler. I'm just saying that the changes or added scenes to Broly and Moro might not have anything to do with what he feels needs to be fixed.

That dumb power level line from Freeza after being revived, having 3 wishes instead or 1 for Shenlong, the kids not being MIA, explaining why Boo isn't there and Goku powering down to base so Sorbet almost killing him made more sense.

I might have the movie mixed up with Toyotaro's manga version because I remember the PL line was removed and it was already explained that Buu was asleep. I forgot most of the saga to be honest but you made it sound like fan service and characters getting a chance to shine was what you valued most and I didn't recall getting more of that in the retellings. Gotenks headbutted Tagoma below the belt and Ginyu returned but I think that was it. Vegeta was the one to kill Ginyu/Tagoma so this extra fan service didn't offer a better showing for the other Z fighters.