rereboy wrote:I already figured the result so I was not surprised. By I liked their exposition at the end. They actually were right in what these characters are supposed to be.
Sora Saiyan wrote:If Goku scales with Beerus in Super shouldn't he be rather close? Beerus is supposedly billions of times FTL , if you follow the calcs that is, and he can poke planets in half. I dont think Goku is too far behind the less ridiculous versions of Supes, and against certain versions i believe he could in fact win. I'll make my mind up properly once i've seen more of DB Super.
You missed the point. Whatever level of power Goku can achieve, Superman can go higher, because he is written as a character with limitless potential. The best Goku could do would be perhaps beat a certain version of Superman at a very specific moment in time, but hey, a lot of characters could also beat Goku if we just take a version of Goku at a specific moment in time.
It's not so much I missed the point, it's just I don't totally buy it. I believe there are plenty of other characters out there who can defeat the more current versions of Supes, even the most powerful ones would get absolutely destroyed by some characters. I just don't believe that he has no limit.
Anyway, if the new 52 Supes ends before he ever shows the power Goku could show by the end of Super, Goku would win. If he has the feats to back up that he can beat Goku it's fine, but if he hasn't I don't believe he could beat Goku. Following OBD Beerus would beat current Superman at this moment in time, but that place isn't for everybody.
rereboy wrote:I already figured the result so I was not surprised. By I liked their exposition at the end. They actually were right in what these characters are supposed to be.
Sora Saiyan wrote:If Goku scales with Beerus in Super shouldn't he be rather close? Beerus is supposedly billions of times FTL , if you follow the calcs that is, and he can poke planets in half. I dont think Goku is too far behind the less ridiculous versions of Supes, and against certain versions i believe he could in fact win. I'll make my mind up properly once i've seen more of DB Super.
You missed the point. Whatever level of power Goku can achieve, Superman can go higher, because he is written as a character with limitless potential. The best Goku could do would be perhaps beat a certain version of Superman at a very specific moment in time, but hey, a lot of characters could also beat Goku if we just take a version of Goku at a specific moment in time.
It's not so much I missed the point, it's just I don't totally buy it. I believe there are plenty of other characters out there who can defeat the more current versions of Supes, even the most powerful ones would get absolutely destroyed by some characters. I just don't believe that he has no limit.
Anyway, if the new 52 Supes ends before he ever shows the power Goku might show by the end of Super, Goku would win. If he has the feats to back up that he can beat Goku it's fine, but if he hasn't I don't believe he could beat Goku. Following OBD Beerus would beat current Superman at this moment in time, but that place isn't for everybody.
Once again, you missed the point. They clearly said in the video that they aren't fixating on a very particular version of the characters in a very specific moment in time. Meaning, that they aren't fixating on just how Superman appears in the comics of new 52. They clearly stated that they try to look to the overall potential of the characters. And that's why Superman wins. Because Superman is written to pretty much always be superior in terms of potential, to be a limitless power struggling to contain his power in a human world while trying to be human and while being faced with the moral challenges that come from it. Any difficulty that Superman faces is pretty much always something like magic, inexperience or his own self-containment. When he really needs to let go, he does things like lift infinity.
Like I said, yes, Goku could beat some versions of Superman in specific moments in time, just like the opposite is also true, but that's not what they tried to do at all.
Last edited by rereboy on Sun Jul 19, 2015 8:52 am, edited 2 times in total.
rereboy wrote:
Once again, you missed the point. They clearly said in the video that they aren't fixating on a very particular version of the characters in a very specific moment in time. Meaning, that they aren't fixating on just how Superman appears in the comics of new 52. They clearly stated that they try to look to the overall potential of the characters. And that's why Superman wins. Because Superman is written to pretty much always be superior in terms of potential, to be a limitless power struggling to contain his power in a human world while trying to be human and while being faced with the moral challenges that come from it. Any difficulty that Superman faces is pretty much always something like magic, inexperience or his own self-containment. When he really needs to let go, he does things like lift infinity.
Like I said, yes, Goku could beat some versions of Superman in specific moments in time, just like the opposite is also true, but that's not what they tried to do at all.
If you want to do it like that Goku also has the potential to become more powerful as Super hasn't finished airing yet. But in this thy clearly put a specific version of Goku against an undefined Superman. How is this fair?
I ask thou, WHY MUST IT BE ME? Your weakness is your strength.
Are you reading this? If you are, I just want to let you know that I'm a GREAT GUY.
rereboy wrote:
Once again, you missed the point. They clearly said in the video that they aren't fixating on a very particular version of the characters in a very specific moment in time. Meaning, that they aren't fixating on just how Superman appears in the comics of new 52. They clearly stated that they try to look to the overall potential of the characters. And that's why Superman wins. Because Superman is written to pretty much always be superior in terms of potential, to be a limitless power struggling to contain his power in a human world while trying to be human and while being faced with the moral challenges that come from it. Any difficulty that Superman faces is pretty much always something like magic, inexperience or his own self-containment. When he really needs to let go, he does things like lift infinity.
Like I said, yes, Goku could beat some versions of Superman in specific moments in time, just like the opposite is also true, but that's not what they tried to do at all.
If you want to do it like that Goku also has the potential to become more powerful as Super hasn't finished airing yet. But in this thy clearly put a specific version of Goku against an undefined Superman. How is this fair?
It isn't plus its like these guys never heard of the term of nlf.
fexus wrote:
If you want to do it like that Goku also has the potential to become more powerful as Super hasn't finished airing yet. But in this thy clearly put a specific version of Goku against an undefined Superman. How is this fair?
Not really because, not only is Goku always the underdog compared to the bad guys that appear and he has to actually train or unlock transformations to match them, there's also no crazy limitless stuff in Dragon Ball, like lifting infinity, regarding any character.
And no, they didn't use a specific version of Goku. They put the most powerful potential Goku that is known, aka they used the overall known potential of the character, which is also what they did with Superman. They even did the favor of mostly focusing on post-crisis stuff and ignoring alternate versions of Superman like Superman Prime 1 million so that it wouldn't be too ridiculous.
rereboy wrote:Once again, you missed the point. They clearly said in the video that they aren't fixating on a very particular version of the characters in a very specific moment in time. Meaning, that they aren't fixating on just how Superman appears in the comics of new 52. They clearly stated that they try to look to the overall potential of the characters. And that's why Superman wins. Because Superman is written to pretty much always be superior in terms of potential, to be a limitless power struggling to contain his power in a human world while trying to be human and while being faced with the moral challenges that come from it. Any difficulty that Superman faces is pretty much always something like magic, inexperience or his own self-containment. When he really needs to let go, he does things like lift infinity.
Like I said, yes, Goku could beat some versions of Superman in specific moments in time, just like the opposite is also true, but that's not what they tried to do at all.
Oh, I thought they were only using two of the most current versions. Guess I got that wrong, and the lifting infinity thing is strange, I never thought Wonder Woman was that strong either. Isn't their cases of Supes needing help to move a planet aswell. Guess it's just the different writers. Good job they didn't throw in anything with Gold Supes aswell.
fexus wrote:
If you want to do it like that Goku also has the potential to become more powerful as Super hasn't finished airing yet. But in this thy clearly put a specific version of Goku against an undefined Superman. How is this fair?
Not really because, not only is Goku always the underdog compared to the bad guys that appear and he has to actually train or unlock transformations to match them, there's also no crazy limitless stuff in Dragon Ball, like lifting infinity, regarding any character.
And no, they didn't use a specific version of Goku. They put the most powerful potential Goku that is known, aka they used the overall known potential of the character, which is also what they did with Superman. They even did the favor of mostly focusing on post-crisis stuff and ignoring alternate versions of Superman like Superman Prime 1 million so that it wouldn't be too ridiculous.
You said potential. Thing here is that Goku still have the potential to become stronger even if he needs to train for it. You don't know what would happen in Super later.
The lifting infinity stuff is pretty bullshit. There's a lot of things that contradict Superman feat and the one that DC is treating as canon right now is NU 52 Superman. They will continue from there. So, if you want you will have to take the potential from there which make Superman not limitless.
I ask thou, WHY MUST IT BE ME? Your weakness is your strength.
Are you reading this? If you are, I just want to let you know that I'm a GREAT GUY.
I'm more surprised that there are still people who are at the stage of their fandom where they truly care about whether or not Goku can beat XYandZ other character.
Especially Superman, he and most other DC characters are kinda sorta written like serious looney toon characters. I mean "Lifting eternity?" really? Eternity is more or less an idea, How can it hold any physical weight?
Yeah depending on the match up it could be fun to talk about but nothing to really take to heart. Personally I moved on a long time ago. Still though I have a question.
Seeings as though Gods are sentient beings and more or less magical in someway.. isn't it safe to say that "God Ki" has some magical properties to it. Probably not, and it may be a bit of stretch but we still don't really no anything about it or the God Forms in general. The same could apply to the fusions. Are they magical beings? Is the Fusion Dance a magic trick even though it does involve Ki? Vegetto was made from magic god earrings, does his ki have any special properties ? We do know as of now he can only be "unmade" through magical means so?
It's not too late. One day, it will be.
Peace And Power MF DOOM!
Peace and Power Kevin Samuels
fexus wrote:
You said potential. Thing here is that Goku still have the potential to become stronger even if he needs to train for it. You don't know what would happen in Super later.
The lifting infinity stuff is pretty bullshit. There's a lot of things that contradict Superman feat and the one that DC is treating as canon right now is NU 52 Superman. They will continue from there. So, if you want you will have to take the potential from there which make Superman not limitless.
Obviously I'm talking about known potential. You are talking about unknown potential. Like you said, we don't know so we can't presume what will happen with Goku in the future and it's ridiculous to try to argue based on that.
And lifting infinity might be stupid or bullshit but its real and how Superman rolls when he needs to. Like the guys said in the video, it's not their fault that he is written like that and that it's real. Superman's power is broken beyond limits, which is why he lifts infinity and other stuff. That's all there is to it.
Overall this rematch was pointless we don't know how strong ssjg goku is or we'll be by the end of super not only that all this is did is have fans bitch about and demand third one again after super done honestly all screw attack did is added more fuel to a debate that will never die.
pacz360 wrote:Overall this rematch was pointless we don't know how strong ssjg goku is or we'll be by the end of super not only that all this is did is have fans bitch about and demand third one again after super done honestly all screw attack did is added more fuel to a debate that will never die.
Actually, I think it ended it pretty conclusively. Unless Goku achieves some broken reality feats (like lifting infinity) or we are just talking about specific versions in very specific points in time, the result will be the same.
Did Superman actually lift that much? Spectres body contains eternity and eternity is just a measurement of time. It does say just after that eternity is heavy, but if he weighed an infinite amount wouldn't he just crush the earth after Supes and Wonder Woman had slown his descent. I really don't believe he weighs infinity after looking into it more. The more I read about it, the less it looks like it's infinity.
Sora Saiyan wrote:Did Superman actually lift that much? Spectres body contains eternity and eternity is just a measurement of time. It does say just after that eternity is heavy, but if he weighed an infinite amount wouldn't he just crush the earth after Supes and Wonder Woman had slown his descent. I really don't believe he weighs infinity after looking into it more. The more I read about it, the less it looks like it's infinity.
He also held a book in his hands that had infinite number of pages. How much weight does a book with infinite pages have? That's right, infinite.
Anyway, you are trying to rationalize it and ground it. Bottom-line is that his abilities transcend even abstract notions like infinity which should be impossible except for someone without limits.
pacz360 wrote:Overall this rematch was pointless we don't know how strong ssjg goku is or we'll be by the end of super not only that all this is did is have fans bitch about and demand third one again after super done honestly all screw attack did is added more fuel to a debate that will never die.
Actually, I think it ended it pretty conclusively. Unless Goku achieves some broken reality feats (like lifting infinity) or we are just talking about specific versions in very specific points in time, the result will be the same.
Not really like the feat you mentioned about lifting infinty is inconsistent due to the fact that he needed help pulling the earth and while amped pushing warworld (forgot the name )with struggle and as i said the debate will never end especially by a bunch of guys fanfiction
pacz360 wrote:
Not really like the feat you mentioned about lifting infinty is inconsistent due to the fact that he needed help pulling the earth and while amped pushing warworld (forgot the name )with struggle and as i said the debate will never end especially by a bunch of guys fanfiction
You are just focusing on a specific version of Superman on a specific moment in time, so that's exactly what I said.
Superman pretty much does the impossible and nonsensical. Like lifting infinity, and hearing Jimmy's watch from extremely far out in space. Neither really make any sense, but Superman can do those things. Til Goku somehow does the absolute broken and impossible like that, there is no reason to compare the two in a fight.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
pacz360 wrote:
Not really like the feat you mentioned about lifting infinty is inconsistent due to the fact that he needed help pulling the earth and while amped pushing warworld (forgot the name )with struggle and as i said the debate will never end especially by a bunch of guys fanfiction
You are just focusing on a specific version of Superman on a specific moment in time, so that's exactly what I said.
Of course prime 1mil,thought robot pre crisis and even post crisis are out of gokus leagues for now but my problem is with these guys trying to act superman is limitless or unbeatable despite the fact that there shitload of characters in fiction that can stomp superman into the ground even at his strongest heck he not even the strongest in his universe pre or post crisis.
Sora Saiyan wrote:Did Superman actually lift that much? Spectres body contains eternity and eternity is just a measurement of time. It does say just after that eternity is heavy, but if he weighed an infinite amount wouldn't he just crush the earth after Supes and Wonder Woman had slown his descent. I really don't believe he weighs infinity after looking into it more. The more I read about it, the less it looks like it's infinity.
He also held a book in his hands that had infinite number of pages. How much weight does a book with infinite pages have? That's right, infinite.
Anyway, you are trying to rationalize it and ground it. Bottom-line is that his abilities transcend even abstract notions like infinity which should be impossible except for someone without limits.
Well that one I can't explain, the Spectre one can be explained, but the infinite page book can't really be argued against. Why does Shazam need to lift it with him though? That's something that doesn't make sense.
I'm pretty sure they started working on this Death Battle before Dragon Ball Super was even announced. Remember, all we had was BoG and Resurrection 'F' until like, what, 2-3 months ago when Super was announced? The longer first battle took them years to do. This one probably took at least six months. Not their fault Dragon Ball came up with a new series while they were working.
Honestly, Superman should be able to win with the first punch if he went all out at this point. The man's strength is on another league entirely.
This is from a New 52 comic, this isn't some ancient page. That kind of raw power could turn Goku into jelly. Goku's never demonstrated the strength to perform such a feat or endure such a level of raw strength. Goku just has no chance up close in the melee. Ki attacks from a distance would really be his only hope.
Guess I got that wrong, and the lifting infinity thing is strange, I never thought Wonder Woman was that strong either. Isn't their cases of Supes needing help to move a planet aswell. Guess it's just the different writers. Good job they didn't throw in anything with Gold Supes aswell.
