Super: Yay or Nay?

[MajinMan]

I've always thought that if you liked the Buu arc, you will probably like Super because the tone is basically the same. I'd say that the biggest problem Super has is its production issues. The first two arcs suffered heavily from the issues, and the Universe 6 arc was shaky. It seems that the production problems have finally calmed down to the point where it seems normal, but that doesn't exuse the first 50 or so episodes from being inconsistent and bad at times. Knowing what I do now, I would say that the first 27 episodes are skippable, even though there are a couple of really solid episodes in there. When it comes to the completely new material, people seem to be divided. I would say that there are definitely more people that like it than hate it, but it is still generally seen as worse than DB/Z. If you do decide to watch Super, just be wary of the production issues that will pop up early on.

[Kunzait_83]

It's just that I find that having an entire tournament in a feature film would become tiresome to the audience. Kinda like how Man of Steel's third act was nothing but action, which got old really fast.

Plenty of great martial arts films consisted of a tournament for practically the whole runtime. Enter the Dragon has more than half the film (if not three quarters of it) take place in and focus on a single martial arts tournament and it remains one of the most iconic, influential, and beloved kung fu films ever. Hell, plenty of great movies consisted of things like being set in a single small location for the whole runtime, or following one long ongoing car chase for the whole runtime, etc. These things are more than possible to keep fresh and engaging with the right execution and sense of tension, pacing, variety, etc.

And don't even bring Man of Steel into things as a point of comparison for pretty much anything. That's a dogshit movie unto itself and is just outright unfair as any kind of example for this type of thing: that couldn't keep a single fight interesting for 15 minutes whereas other movies keep their extended/prolonged action beats endlessly engaging like its effortless. Hard Boiled's entire third act consists entirely of one gigantic shootout in a hospital that lasts virtually the whole final 25/30 minutes of the movie with almost no interruptions, and its never for one second the least bit anything other than the coolest, most white knuckled tense shit imaginable.

[ABED]

Fury Road was one gigantic chase scene and yet people claim that's a great movie. I don't, but I don't think people would have a difficult time watching a tournament for a whole movie. Bloodsport was built around a tournament. As Kunzait pointed out, Enter the Dragon is a classic.

I enjoy Man of Steel for the most part and don't even hate the final battle, but it there are only so many times I can see Superman go through a building before it gets tiring.

If DB fans can watch the series, I don't think a full length movie built around one tournament is an issue if the action and the characters are engaging.

[Trickster]

I've always thought that if you liked the Buu arc, you will probably like Super because the tone is basically the same. I'd say that the biggest problem Super has is its production issues. The first two arcs suffered heavily from the issues, and the Universe 6 arc was shaky. It seems that the production problems have finally calmed down to the point where it seems normal, but that doesn't exuse the first 50 or so episodes from being inconsistent and bad at times. Knowing what I do now, I would say that the first 27 episodes are skippable, even though there are a couple of really solid episodes in there. When it comes to the completely new material, people seem to be divided. I would say that there are definitely more people that like it than hate it, but it is still generally seen as worse than DB/Z. If you do decide to watch Super, just be wary of the production issues that will pop up early on.

I disagree that the production issues have ceased. If you compare even to Naruto, which was another non-stop anime, at its worst (the middle of the 4th Ninja War), Super's animation is still very poor.

But I don't think the animation itself it's the major problem. Actually, the pacing and direction (general and of each scene), to me, are what really ruin the show.

[Shinda Forever]

Nay! The animation is always terrible, the fighting scenes short, the cast that they chose is terrible and the show is becoming more dbgt each day.
I think i will stop watching db super very soon, i'm not interested to see dbgt part 2 where only the saiyans matter and are competitive with each other leaving all the other characters in the dust, furthermore, there is no background for the characters, no world building and now they decided to bring fucking Roshi to the table, give me a fucking break. Plus, they make an intro where Majin Buu is supposed to be part of the team and next he is excluded, the show is a mess.

I've always thought that if you liked the Buu arc, you will probably like Super because the tone is basically the same. I'd say that the biggest problem Super has is its production issues. The first two arcs suffered heavily from the issues, and the Universe 6 arc was shaky. It seems that the production problems have finally calmed down to the point where it seems normal, but that doesn't exuse the first 50 or so episodes from being inconsistent and bad at times. Knowing what I do now, I would say that the first 27 episodes are skippable, even though there are a couple of really solid episodes in there. When it comes to the completely new material, people seem to be divided. I would say that there are definitely more people that like it than hate it, but it is still generally seen as worse than DB/Z. If you do decide to watch Super, just be wary of the production issues that will pop up early on.

I disagree that the production issues have ceased. If you compare even to Naruto, which was another non-stop anime, at its worst (the middle of the 4th Ninja War), Super's animation is still very poor.

But I don't think the animation itself it's the major problem. Actually, the pacing and direction (general and of each scene), to me, are what really ruin the show.

Exactly the animation in db super is incredibly bad. It is a joke.

[ABED]

Actually, the pacing and direction (general and of each scene), to me, are what really ruin the show.

Pacing I understand, but what do you mean in terms of direction?

[Luso Saiyan]

Don't listen to fans and judge it for yourself. I definitely disagree with the assertion that "the show was written by fans of the show who are more interested in retreading a lot of their favorite moments or characters instead of taking the story into new areas". It's not. The outlines come from Toriyama, and if there is any pandering, it's in minutae, not the story itself.

If you want to save some time, watch the two movies instead of the first two story arcs and go forward with the rest of the series. It's how those stories were originally created and the animation is obviously much better.

[Super Saiyan Swagger]

It's just that I find that having an entire tournament in a feature film would become tiresome to the audience. Kinda like how Man of Steel's third act was nothing but action, which got old really fast.

Plenty of great martial arts films consisted of a tournament for practically the whole runtime. Enter the Dragon has more than half the film (if not three quarters of it) take place in and focus on a single martial arts tournament and it remains one of the most iconic, influential, and beloved kung fu films ever. Hell, plenty of great movies consisted of things like being set in a single small location for the whole runtime, or following one long ongoing car chase for the whole runtime, etc. These things are more than possible to keep fresh and engaging with the right execution and sense of tension, pacing, variety, etc.

And don't even bring Man of Steel into things as a point of comparison for pretty much anything. That's a dogshit movie unto itself and is just outright unfair as any kind of example for this type of thing: that couldn't keep a single fight interesting for 15 minutes whereas other movies keep their extended/prolonged action beats endlessly engaging like its effortless. Hard Boiled's entire third act consists entirely of one gigantic shootout in a hospital that lasts virtually the whole final 25/30 minutes of the movie with almost no interruptions, and its never for one second the least bit anything other than the coolest, most white knuckled tense shit imaginable.

Welp, guess using Man of Steel as an example was a bad call. I'll be honest, I haven't seen any of the films you mentioned which is probably why I wouldn't know how an entire tournament could work into a film.

[ABED]

Welp, guess using Man of Steel as an example was a bad call. I'll be honest, I haven't seen any of the films you mentioned which is probably why I wouldn't know how an entire tournament could work into a film.

If you haven't seen Enter the Dragon, put that on your bucket list.

[Kunzait_83]

Welp, guess using Man of Steel as an example was a bad call. I'll be honest, I haven't seen any of the films you mentioned which is probably why I wouldn't know how an entire tournament could work into a film.

If you haven't seen Enter the Dragon, put that on your bucket list.

Seconded. How does someone even go this long without having seen Enter the Dragon? I mean honestly.

Also since ABED mentioned it, Bloodsport is also very much worth your time. Its an unapologetic cheesefest (in a good way mind) whereas Enter the Dragon's a much classier affair, but its another stellar example of a martial arts movie taking place entirely in a single tournament and pulling it off marvelously.

Both movies also have the distinction of being the two most prominent non-Wuxia influences on the original Mortal Kombat arcade game.

[sintzu]

Yeah, either the magic is gone, we realize the series or movies were a product of their time, or the writers don't push the story and characters forward.

With DB it's both. the way it was made in the 80's and 90's isn't being done anymore and Toriyama isn't taking the characters as far as I think he should.

[Super Saiyan Swagger]

Welp, guess using Man of Steel as an example was a bad call. I'll be honest, I haven't seen any of the films you mentioned which is probably why I wouldn't know how an entire tournament could work into a film.

If you haven't seen Enter the Dragon, put that on your bucket list.

Seconded. How does someone even go this long without having seen Enter the Dragon? I mean honestly.

Also since ABED mentioned it, Bloodsport is also very much worth your time. Its an unapologetic cheesefest (in a good way mind) whereas Enter the Dragon's a much classier affair, but its another stellar example of a martial arts movie taking place entirely in a single tournament and pulling it off marvelously.

Both movies also have the distinction of being the two most prominent non-Wuxia influences on the original Mortal Kombat arcade game.

Will definitely watch those films you guys mentioned once I get the chance. I've heard nothing but great things about Enter the Dragon.

[ABED]

This isn't on topic, but Jackie Chan plays one of the henchmen in Enter the Dragon. Blink and you'll miss him.

[GreatSaiyaJeff]

Just going to be that guy and defend Man of Steel by saying it's an underappreciated film. On another note, enter the dragon is on my bucket list as well for movies.

[ABED]

Taking all your input into account, I will eventually see it and judge for myself, but I'm in no rush. It seems even that even the most ardent defenders don't love it.

[Anime Kitten]

-Super Dragonballs? How did the Namekians get a shard of it? How did Kami create his own set of dragonballs with no shard? Why is there a thing called the Dragon Clan if the Namekians didn't make the Dragonballs?

-Zuno? Wow someone like him who knows where everything/everyone is, So...why didn't the Supreme Kai ask where Babidi was in space

-28 Species in Universe Seven? Freeza conquers and sells planets, and probably half of his entire army comes from those species. How is he making scratch when there are only 28 species in the entire universe

-There are still dinosaurs on Earth.

-You give Potara Fusion a time limit and a power limit. When Fusion Dance exists.

-Trunks is an amazing fighter. But he's not a prodigy. Especially one that learns new moves via godtube

I feel like I could address​ most of these...

- No one knew about them?

- He probably would've had to wait years to do it. Wasn't that what almost happened to Bulma and Jaco in the Universe 6 arc, or was that just a poor translation (or my bad memory)?

- You said it yourself, they come into Freeza's army, and as of the Golden Freeza arc or so, all of them are dead.

- Blatant contradiction. No arguments here.

- I think it'd be interesting if the Kaiōshin had to be cooperative​ to give someone their Potara. I wouldn't imagine someone like the Universe 9 Kaiōshin just giving his away because someone asked.

- Do we know he isn't a prodigy? I agree on the Mafuba thing being stupid and all, but it didn't mean anything to begin with, so it's not even worth mentioning IMO.

[Kunzait_83]

Yeah, either the magic is gone, we realize the series or movies were a product of their time, or the writers don't push the story and characters forward.

With DB it's both. the way it was made in the 80's and 90's isn't being done anymore and Toriyama isn't taking the characters as far as I think he should.

Toriyama I don't think really deserves a lot of (or any) of the blame here (apart from agreeing to Super and signing onto it, largely it seems out of pure spite towards Evolution). Fans seem to like to VASTLY over-hype and over-embellish his contributions to Super. He basically maps out the BROADEST of broad story beats that need to be hit in what is effectively bullet points, and then a team of (not nearly as talented or ambitious it would seem) writers are tasked with fleshing things out and filling in all of the blanks and details.

And in all honesty, a lot of Super's VERY broad concepts are generally fine (expanding from a universe to a multiverse, a psychotically murderous Kaioshin, a tournament amongst the gods to decide the fate of all existence, etc). The problems are all in the finer details and execution thereof. On both a production and writing end.

Treating Super as if its Toriyama's baby is a GIGANTIC fucking stretch. He's not even a showrunner. He's a very, very broad idea man. A conceptualizer. His role in Super is just BARELY a hairline bigger than it was for GT (where he mainly provided character designs and maybe a stray story idea or two). I think once again, fans blow Toriyama's involvement way out of proportions because, again, they just want Dragon Ball to be back. They want the glory days to continue and pick up seamlessly right from where they left off in 1995 and never stop again. And that's EXTREMELY unrealistic to expect that of anyone or anything (VERY rarely has anything like that actually happened - Faith No More's recent comeback album in 2015 springs to mind as a rare as hell example of a long dead creative entity suddenly returning in tip top form like not a day went by since they were last seen in the 90s - but those examples are one in a zillion).

The reality is that Dragon Ball WAS a direct product of its time, and you're just NOT going to see its like just casually come about once more in this current day. Not only is its brand of anime very much tied to the zeitgeist of the 80s and 90s, but moreover so is its brand of anarchic, anything goes Wuxia. There've been recent attempts to recapture that 80s/90s manic crazed style of Wuxia in various late 2000s and 2010s films & tv shows, and the results have been DECIDEDLY mixed at best.

Fans need to get it through their (sorry to be blunt here) thick fucking heads that with Toriyama the dude's largely fucking RETIRED and just accept that he's NEVER going to come back to DB in a full time, meaningful capacity, nor should he even be EXPECTED to want to. The dude poured a little over a decade of his life into it and it probably helped turn him gray early.

Just. Let. It. Go already. Just accept it that you missed the boat in the late 80s/early 90s. It sucks, but that's life. Move on. There's TONS of other stuff out there that DB took direct and indirect influence from and that it shares an extraordinarily similar creative DNA with (and no, I'm not in any way talking about other Shonen). Go explore and be amazed at all the other cool shit you'll find that you didn't know about; just like you didn't even know what DB was at one point.

A lot of what helped make DB what it was was pure alchemical lightning in a bottle (right people in the right place at the right time within the right cultural zeitgeist), and you can't just reproduce that on command at will. Sometimes it happens once and it just never comes back against because that one time was simply its time to be.

[FoolsGil]

- No one knew about them?

No one knew about the Super Dragonballs? Ok That doesn't explain my other three questions: How did the Namekians get a shard of it? How did Kami create his own set of dragonballs with no shard? Why is there a thing called the Dragon Clan if the Namekians didn't make the Dragonballs?

- He probably would've had to wait years to do it. Wasn't that what almost happened to Bulma and Jaco in the Universe 6 arc, or was that just a poor translation (or my bad memory)?

It's only a year wait. And Supreme Kai could say "Eff it" like Zamasu and threaten an answer from him, or appeal to the good nature of surviving because he told him where Babidi was.

-

You said it yourself, they come into Freeza's army, and as of the Golden Freeza arc or so, all of them are dead.

What's the point of having an army that wipes planets and sells them, if there are only 28 species to inhabit a universe and you've enslaved like 14 of those species?
Now, if Freeza was an intergalactic King, well as lame as it is to run a universe with only 28 species it would be sort of okay. But Dragonball didn't introduce Freeza as such. No, Freeza is a businessman. He wipes out a previous planets inhabitants and sells the planet to other species. So how is theere going to be supply and demand of buying and selling planets, when there are only maybe 14 species to buy or sell planets too! There's more than 14 planets in the universe it would make more sense for Freeza to go into Colonization and sell those other aliens rockets to colonize the other planets in the universe!

- Do we know he isn't a prodigy? I agree on the Mafuba thing being stupid and all, but it didn't mean anything to begin with, so it's not even worth mentioning IMO.

If he was a prodigy, he would have killed Cell after he went perfect. And Mafuba not worth mentioning? Then let's talk about the Spirit Bomb Sword, he never even seen the actual Genki Dama, but somehow he's going to put the properties to his sword. Let's ignore the fact Goku used the full population of Earth's energy against Buu and still almost lost if he wasn't re-energized, but Mr. Prodigy used like maybe 20 people to energize an attack to kill an opponent that would have drunk Kid Buu through a bendy straw.

If he was a prodigy, he would have stuck 17 and 18 with the Spirit Bomb Sword a long time ago. Super Trunks and Z Trunks, are practically different people.

[ABED]

-There are still dinosaurs on Earth.

I'm confused. Are you saying that Super introduced dinosaurs on Earth? If so, there's a pterodactyl in one of the first chapters of the manga.

[sintzu]

He basically maps out the BROADEST of broad story beats that need to be hit in what is effectively bullet points.

A team of writers are tasked with fleshing things out and filling in all of the blanks and details.

Fans need to get it through their thick fucking heads that with Toriyama the dude's largely fucking RETIRED and just accept that he's NEVER going to come back to DB in a full time, meaningful capacity, nor should he even be EXPECTED to want to.

Go explore and be amazed at all the other cool shit you'll find that you didn't know about; just like you didn't even know what DB was at one point.

That's perfectly fine, I just wish those points would be more of their own thing instead of doing all these call backs to Z and fanservice.

This is why I prefer the manga cause it's a lot closer to the original which the anime could be but these "writers" are preventing it from being so.

I'm more than fine with his current amount of work, I just wish it was more creative. I think what he's doing is good and a lot better than what someone else would do.

That's exactly what I'm doing but that doesn't mean I'm not going to expect the sequel to my favorite anime to live up to it.