GT vs Super [POLL]

[8000 Saiyan]

Super, without a doubt. Better music, better animation and better writing.

GT has neat ideas that are poorly executed. The only things that are good about it are the Japanese OST and the Japanese voice cast. One thing I hate about GT is how the colors look. They look so dull and washed out. That's not how a Dragon Ball show should look like in my opinion.

I don't deny that Super has bad writing, but at least it has never bored and depressed me like GT did (Seriously, I don't like that ending at all). I can't think of one moment in GT that made me smile. All I ever did watching GT was groan.

[Robo4900]

One thing I hate about GT is how the colors look. They look so dull and washed out.

GT is dull and washed out?
And Super isn't?

I realise that Super was probably the most bright and colourful of the series in its first couple of arcs, but basically since the Black arc, dark, dull, and washed-out has been the name of the game, to the point where they put that ugly filter over the Universe Survival arc.
Meanwhile, GT embraces bright, dynamic colours all throughout. Hell, in some ways, it's brighter and more colourful than Z; in Z, space was always black, whereas in GT, space is blue.

but the Shadow dragon arc? how? is like everyone said a neat idea but the execution was soo poor,the firsts dragoons are a joke and varelly characters

The first dragon is not good, I will grant you. Second dragon was also a little dull. The rest ranged from good to awesome, though.
Third one, Liu Xing Long/Ryu Shinron/Oceanus Shenron, was pretty fun; her powers were interesting, the idea that she's used her powers to gain the favour of a village is pretty cool, and the joke about the wish that made her was a good laugh.
Fourth one, Qi Xing Long/Chi Shinron/Naturon Shenron, was really interesting; this guy doesn't have a ton of his own usable power, he's a symbiote, so he uses other people and things, and amps them up with his negative energy power, and uses them to cause chaos, leading to him absorbing Pan, and using that against Goku.
Fifth and sixth ones, Si Xing Long/Su Shinron/Nuova Shenron and San Xing Long/San Shinron/Eis Shenron, are a really fun duo; the fire brother fighting with honour for the thrill of the fight like Goku, and the ice brother fighting dirty just to win. Not the deepest of characters on paper, but the interations are what's important, and the interactions end up really fun and interesting.
The seventh one, well... I'll discuss that below...

and then in the end syn shenron just appears, he has no real plans and ambitions as far as i can remember,he is just evil (i know they are evil dragons but the could at last give them some personalities and a goal?) and he absorbs the other DBs and they fight him, until the totally original genki dama kill.

Ignore the part about absorbing the Dragon Balls, and you've just described the broad strokes of Kid Boo, and Z movies 2, 3. And yet, people love those fights.

And sure, you could say it's not original, but that's not true if you look beyond the mere broad strokes.
The final dragon, Yi Xing Long/Ii Shinron/Syn Shenron, appears when Goku and Si Xing Long have just concluded the ordeal with San Xing Long. Si Xing Long gives Goku something to make his eyes better, and they agree to fight again later, when they're able to fight each-other at full power. Looks like the episode is going to be over, and that we'll see Goku and Pan looking for the next dragon, or seeking out Si Xing Long for a remach next episode... But then, plot twist, Yi Xing Long appears, and basically dominates both of them. Everyone else begins to appear to help Goku out, and... It's hopeless. Goku and Vegeta try fusing, but they only get half-way to beating him... In the end, the dragon kills Goku, and is basically ready to kill everyone else, and presumably destroy the planet itself before he eventually gives out.

I'm gonna get into some of the stuff implied in episode 64, and a lot of the material in the Evil Dragons arc that wasn't outright stated. There's a lot to unpack in the arc, particularly in episode 64, so you'll excuse me if I say some things that aren't literally stated in the dialogue...

So, the thing is, the whole purpose of the Evil Dragons is that if you've abused the power of the Dragon Balls, the Evil Dragons come forth and clean house. If you continually rely on the Dragon Balls, then you're upsetting the natural order, something the dragons will remedy by wiping out the planet, so you can't do that anymore. The dragons exist to put an end to overuse of the balls. Each dragon has their way of bringing about mass destruction on the planet, even the honourable Si Xing Long, who doesn't align with the other dragons, would cause conflict through his love of fighting; his fight with Goku caused damage, though the area they were fighting in had already been abandoned. If Goku hadn't been there, he'd probably have fought with his brother, or Yi Xing Long, or any of the other dragons, which would cause a lot of destruction.

The dragons can be defeated, but that takes an extraordinary effort, one that proves the people of the planet are ready to deal without the balls, and they understand the lesson taught by the presence of the evil dragons. Most of them do have a personality to them; they have ambitions, desires, etc., but ultimately, there has to be the one that will make sure the dragons don't get distracted, and they do carry out their goal; if left to their own devices, San Xing Long and Si Xing Long would probably fight for the rest of theire days, Liang Xing Long would wallow in his mud pit, Wu Xing Long and Qi Xing Long would destroy structures to watch the explosions and crumbling, and Liu Xing Long would continue to thrive on the adoration of her loyal subjects.
Yi Xing Long ensures that the ultimate point reached by the presence of the dragons is destruction of the planet, or at the very least, the death of all its people.

And, outside of an in-universe thing, from a narrative perspective, it's a good idea to have just a destructive force as the final villain to face, because the characterisation in those last several episodes isn't about a villain with complex motives, it's about how the goodguys react to a force that threatens to destroy their entire world, and pretty damn-near manages it.

In the end, Shen Long and Goku cut some sort of deal; the Dragon Balls deactivate for 100 years, and Goku becomes some sort of ghost who isn't allowed to hang around on earth for long. But, in exchange, he's allowed a chance to defeat Yi Xing Long, and Shen Long even agrees to repair the damage done to the earth for the sake of all the innocents affected by this ordeal.

The purpose and function of the Evil Dragons makes total sense when you think about it, and Yi Xing Long's lack of any real character outside of "Destructive force of chaos" makes sense, and is justifiable both narratively, and in-universe.

[sunsetshimmer]

The first dragon is not good

Disagreed. He is one of the best dragons, better than Omega to me.
Now, the second dragon, he was awful.

and then in the end syn shenron just appears, he has no real plans and ambitions as far as i can remember,he is just evil

He was simply born to destroy universe. That was his goal. It was his destiny. A punishment for overusing the dragon balls. What kind of ambition he could have? It's still better reason than Buu (in his pure form) or Janemba. And i like these two.

[CriticalThinker]

I feel that both are rather poor follow up's to Z but if I were forced to watch one I'd pick Super over GT. Mainly being that Super was able to keep me engaged while GT did not. After posting my general thoughts on the first arc I haven't gone back to it since as I had become quickly bored. Maybe I'll go back one day and finish the series but as of right now I probably won't.

[PsionicWarrior]

*babidiboo*

wow thanks for your detailed reply man,
all good points and I sadly agree Super went a bit greedy on the really good episodes distribution lol
better does indeed not necessarily mean good but in this case I think it means it lol
sure it was kinda baby steps with small improvements arc after arc but please acknowledge the final result, 130-131 in terms of animation are nothing short of outstanding, had I seen that when I was in school I would have gone nuts lol
so I try to focus on the positive, the current state of the franchise leaves me optimistic for the future,
like you I am not a fan of the Top arc and there is a few things I found catastrophic yet it is without doubt the arc which has the better looking fights and better looking art of this series, and managed to pull out a few very Z-esque episodes IMHO

So to recap,
does Super has its share of bad episodes? yes
is there too many bad episodes? again yes
Is it a failed or bad show? definitely not,
there still are many moments that reached my DB feelings and I would say at your opposite, that despite the massive amount of issue this show has, it is a good show overall,
I acknowledge it as being the franchise's worthy successor, and boy am I glad since I basically consider GT doesn't exist lol

[Robo4900]

wow thanks for your detailed reply man,

Cheers, man. I think anything less would be an injustice to both your argument, and my counterpoints.

but please acknowledge the final result, 130-131 in terms of animation are nothing short of outstanding, had I seen that when I was in school I would have gone nuts lol

I gave up after episode 102, but sure, I'll accept that.
But I still stand by 100% that two nice-looking episodes does not mean a well-animated show, especially not the two final episodes, when the entire animation team is able to focus on getting those two done, with no future episodes in the pipeline, and they probably devoted time that could have been spent on sharpening up the previous few episodes on getting those two right.

Claiming those two episodes represent what the entire series would be incredibly deceptive, and essentially akin to taking a scene from The Dark Knight Rises where Batman says something stupid and lame in response to a kind of odd line from Bane, and saying that represents the entire Dark Knight trilogy.
Make no mistake, that line is goofy, and those two episodes of Super are -- from what I hear, at least -- very well-animated, but the Dark Knight trilogy is a very good movie trilogy, and Super is not a very well-animated show.

so I try to focus on the positive, the current state of the franchise leaves me optimistic for the future,

I try to stay positive, but if I'm not enjoying something, focusing on the positive and ignoring the negative would just be being dishonest with myself, and would mean I'm wasting 20 minutes a week on something I don't like. And, admittedly... That's exactly what I did for quite a while; I did legitimately enjoy the between-arc fillers, and I thought the U6 tournament was a decent-ish first arc, but basically the Black arc was awful to sit through, and the Tournament Of Power, with its unnecessarily and unbelievably slow pace on top of all the other problems in the show, was just the straw that broke the camel's back. With how much I've increasingly hated the direction Super has been going in, I'm very pessimistic about the future of the franchise.

like you I am not a fan of the Top arc and there is a few things I found catastrophic yet it is without doubt the arc which has the better looking fights and better looking art of this series, and managed to pull out a few very Z-esque episodes IMHO

The fights have never been the draw for me. A good fight can be the icing on the cake for a good arc, but if the cake is bad, then the icing won't matter.

So to recap,
does Super has its share of bad episodes? yes
is there too many bad episodes? again yes
Is it a failed or bad show? definitely not,
there still are many moments that reached my DB feelings and I would say at your opposite, that despite the massive amount of issue this show has, it is a good show overall,

With the standards you judge Super by, I'm surprised you don't love GT.

Super hasn't just had a few bad episodes, the vast majority of it has been unfulfilling and lazy at best. GT only really had about six or seven bad episodes, unfortuantely four of them were in the first eight. However, it's generally agreed that basically the entire run of the movie retellings of Super are god-awful, so that's a solid 27 episodes of bad episodes... That's even longer than Star Trek Next Gen's start-up time.

I acknowledge it as being the franchise's worthy successor, and boy am I glad since I basically consider GT doesn't exist lol

Have you even watched GT?
And I don't mean that butchered mess Funimation calls "GT", I mean the real GT. The thing Toei aired on TV, and that Blue Water produced a pretty decent dub of.
And I also don't mean watched the first 3 episodes, then gave up because it wasn't grabbing you either, I mean actually sitting down, giving it a chance, and at least sitting through the first 20 episodes.

I mean getting a proper sample of what the show actually is, and judging it on its own merits, not on what people online tell you to think, not on what you're expecting to think, not on what Funimation is trying and failing to tell you... I mean actually giving the show, the actual show, the chance it deserves, and making your own judgement on it.

[PsionicWarrior]

gave up after episode 102, but sure, I'll accept that.
But I still stand by 100% that two nice-looking episodes does not mean a well-animated show, especially not the two final episodes, when the entire animation team is able to focus on getting those two done, with no future episodes in the pipeline, and they probably devoted time that could have been spent on sharpening up the previous few episodes on getting those two right.

Nah basically every fight in the Top is cool to watch animation-wise, and fighting is like 90% of this arc lol
That 130-131 I linked you might be the best they did in that department though lol

I try to stay positive, but if I'm not enjoying something, focusing on the positive and ignoring the negative would just be being dishonest with myself, and would mean I'm wasting 20 minutes a week on something I don't like. And, admittedly... That's exactly what I did for quite a while; I did legitimately enjoy the between-arc fillers, and I thought the U6 tournament was a decent-ish first arc

I feel you and I didn’t mean to come across as ignoring the negatives, I’m not, it’s the timeline of events that keeps me positive, I mean if Super started out with great animation and had original tier #5 animation afterwards I would be negative lol

but basically the Black arc was awful to sit through, and the Tournament Of Power, with its unnecessarily and unbelievably slow pace on top of all the other problems in the show, was just the straw that broke the camel's back. With how much I've increasingly hated the direction Super has been going in, I'm very pessimistic about the future of the franchise.

Lost you from the moment you said you found the Black arc awful, for me this is where the show really starts to get good especially story-wise, helping me cope better with the overall animation and art which actually were already decent for the most part and sometimes even good (yes I don't deny we had a few awful frames in that arc too lol)

The fights have never been the draw for me. A good fight can be the icing on the cake for a good arc, but if the cake is bad, then the icing won't matter.

Ah it’s not only the fights mate, the fights are the strong point of this arc but there has been some surprisingly good episodes featuring *warning spoil lol* Roshi doing so great he gets acknowledged by Beerus, a sweet callback to Namekian mythology with Piccolo and Gohan, great directing for the UI every time it was there, and actually even more lol *spoil end lol*
I can understand the sentiment of the people praising this arc, because it actually has much more than a few good or great moments, but the less good -read outright bad moments are also very strong so yeah I get the mitigation lol

GT only really had about six or seven bad episodes,

I wouldn't even say it has a single good episode lol

Have you even watched GT?

YES, and unlike you with Super, till the end, and actually TWICE lol
that was extremely painful lol
please don't ever think I wouldn't have my own judgement about actually any show without wathcing it, as proof of good will I did even give a second chance to GT, after I was already traumatized the first time lol
the first time was when it was airing on TV but it was the french dub and it was the early years of the internet at home lol
the second time was a couple of years back and I watched it in the original sub, I ended up hating it even more than the first time I saw it even though I'm a sub purist lol

With the standards you judge Super by, I'm surprised you don't love GT

The thing is we definitely don’t seem to have the same standards, or rather we have different expectations lol
To me Super is more Dragon Ball than GT will ever be lol

[YamiGoku]

The first dragon is not good, I will grant you. Second dragon was also a little dull. The rest ranged from good to awesome, though.
Third one, Liu Xing Long/Ryu Shinron/Oceanus Shenron, was pretty fun; her powers were interesting, the idea that she's used her powers to gain the favour of a village is pretty cool, and the joke about the wish that made her was a good laugh.
Fourth one, Qi Xing Long/Chi Shinron/Naturon Shenron, was really interesting; this guy doesn't have a ton of his own usable power, he's a symbiote, so he uses other people and things, and amps them up with his negative energy power, and uses them to cause chaos, leading to him absorbing Pan, and using that against Goku.
Fifth and sixth ones, Si Xing Long/Su Shinron/Nuova Shenron and San Xing Long/San Shinron/Eis Shenron, are a really fun duo; the fire brother fighting with honour for the thrill of the fight like Goku, and the ice brother fighting dirty just to win. Not the deepest of characters on paper, but the interations are what's important, and the interactions end up really fun and interesting.
The seventh one, well... I'll discuss that below...

describing them doesn't make them real characters or good/interesting villains, the first ones felt like filler and could been dealt with in 2 seconds if goku wasn't fooling around, and 3, 4 and 1 star were the only threats, but still there was no real characterisation aside that 4 star is good because goku, 3 star is a coward and 1 star is just the final boss.

Ignore the part about absorbing the Dragon Balls, and you've just described the broad strokes of Kid Boo, and Z movies 2, 3. And yet, people love those fights.

But Buu at last has different personalities across the arc before that, and then he transformed into a more brute and pure evil, and even then he had more personality than shenron making stupid things like dancing and taunting goku and vegeta and acting almost baby like and screaming.

So, the thing is, the whole purpose of the Evil Dragons is that if you've abused the power of the Dragon Balls, the Evil Dragons come forth and clean house. If you continually rely on the Dragon Balls, then you're upsetting the natural order, something the dragons will remedy by wiping out the planet, so you can't do that anymore. The dragons exist to put an end to overuse of the balls. Each dragon has their way of bringing about mass destruction on the planet, even the honourable Si Xing Long, who doesn't align with the other dragons, would cause conflict through his love of fighting; his fight with Goku caused damage, though the area they were fighting in had already been abandoned. If Goku hadn't been there, he'd probably have fought with his brother, or Yi Xing Long, or any of the other dragons, which would cause a lot of destruction.

The dragons can be defeated, but that takes an extraordinary effort, one that proves the people of the planet are ready to deal without the balls, and they understand the lesson taught by the presence of the evil dragons. Most of them do have a personality to them; they have ambitions, desires, etc., but ultimately, there has to be the one that will make sure the dragons don't get distracted, and they do carry out their goal; if left to their own devices, San Xing Long and Si Xing Long would probably fight for the rest of theire days, Liang Xing Long would wallow in his mud pit, Wu Xing Long and Qi Xing Long would destroy structures to watch the explosions and crumbling, and Liu Xing Long would continue to thrive on the adoration of her loyal subjects.
Yi Xing Long ensures that the ultimate point reached by the presence of the dragons is destruction of the planet, or at the very least, the death of all its people.

And, outside of an in-universe thing, from a narrative perspective, it's a good idea to have just a destructive force as the final villain to face, because the characterisation in those last several episodes isn't about a villain with complex motives, it's about how the goodguys react to a force that threatens to destroy their entire world, and pretty damn-near manages it.

In the end, Shen Long and Goku cut some sort of deal; the Dragon Balls deactivate for 100 years, and Goku becomes some sort of ghost who isn't allowed to hang around on earth for long. But, in exchange, he's allowed a chance to defeat Yi Xing Long, and Shen Long even agrees to repair the damage done to the earth for the sake of all the innocents affected by this ordeal.

The purpose and function of the Evil Dragons makes total sense when you think about it, and Yi Xing Long's lack of any real character outside of "Destructive force of chaos" makes sense, and is justifiable both narratively, and in-universe.

no offence, but, I think youre more in love with your description of the story than with the execution that happened in the anime, because all those concepts weren't executed like you describe them, you make it sound like it was the most amazing story ever.






I think we just have to accept that everyone of us is different and that "GT only fans" would never accept Super was better, and "Super only fans" will never accept GT was better, even if one part of the fandom is right (no especific side) the other side will not see it like that and it wont accept it ever.

[MajinMan]

I picked Super because I just enjoyed it more. It had better moments throughout its run, while GT did not have many great moments. GT just wasn’t as fun to watch, and only had 1 arc I would consider good, with the rest being mediocre or bad.

[Forte224]

Oh people were cheating on that first one? I have to admit I was surprised that GT was winning. Anyway, I picked Super. Both have issues, but I feel Super is a better follow up to the original story, despite taking place before the end of Z.

[Bullza]

Yeah, because F. Trunks not being able to take care of a baby like Pan and having to hold on to her is not childish at all either.

What's childish about it? It's light hearted humour and it was here and there throughout the show, mainly during it's "filler". That's very different from having a villain who turned a main character into a little dolly and plays with her.

The idea of them going across the Universe, visiting different planets and coming across different threats was actually a pretty good idea but they went about it all wrong. They never should have made Goku a kid and Vegeta and Uub should have gone a long as well. They got the tone for the show all wrong. It worked for the original series but it didn't work for GT.

The Fusion Dance isn't an ass pull but the Potara was. It was a poor matter of convenience. The Supreme Kai just somehow didn't know about it. Kibito didn't know about it.

From when the Old Kai was introduced it was never mentioned. There were still people alive at the time, he could have simply handed them to Gohan and he could have gone and fused with Piccolo or he could have given his life to revive Goku, given him the Potara and he could have immediately have fused with Gohan right there.

Instead, it was never mentioned. He spent hours upon hours instead unlocking Gohan's powers. Then just out of nowhere "Put these earrings on that I've been wearing the whole time and you'll get Incredible power". Then there was the whole thing where it was meant to be permanent and yet shortly after it turned out it actually wasn't at all because of....gases, again convenient.

Goku has gotten angry, he's powered up. Gohan has gotten angry, he's powered up. Vegeta has gotten angry, he's powered up. It happened to Trunks, what's so surprising about it? You could clearly see the form tied in with his Grade 3 form that he'd recently used in the show.

[Kamiccolo9]

I picked Super. I don't think that any of the anime, aside from the first one, are particularly "good," but Super never bored me like GT does. I remember watching GT as it aired here, way before I was as critical as I am now, and my main thought then was "when do we get to the cool stuff I read about in Pojo?" only for the show to get there and bore me even more. With Super, I was at least excited for the next episode, and never found myself actively wanting an arc to end.

[Robo4900]

describing them doesn't make them real characters or good/interesting villains

Are you for real?

the first ones felt like filler and could been dealt with in 2 seconds if goku wasn't fooling around

And yet people praise it as sheer genius when this is the case with Vegeta and Imperfect Cell...
And Captain Ginyu...
And Jheese...
And most of the afterlife tournament fighters...
And a good few of the movie villains...
And most of the tournament of power...
And most of the U6 tournament...
And kid Boo... (Remember, Goku and Vegeta could have fused again, and pounded him to a pulp if they were willing to set aside their pride for a moment, like they'd literally just done last time they fused to fight against Super Boo...)

and 3, 4 and 1 star were the only threats

Not the case. 7-star was pretty damn strong when he absorbed Pan, and while it was possible for Goku to kill him, the genius of that dragon wasn't him being strong, but the fact that Goku doesn't want to kill his granddaughter(Hmm... Personal stakes being the main focus of a fight, rather than just the question of whether one guy is stronger than the other... Someone should make a movie like that sometime).
6-star was a real threat because Goku had to figure out how her technique works to be effective in fighting her, which is a classic hallmark of Dragon Ball.
And literally the entire point of 2-star is that he doesn't come off as a threat, then suddenly-- oh crap! Now we're weak and he is a threat.

Again, the "He's not a threat so I'm just gonna toy with-- oh god why" thing isn't new to Dragon Ball. Vegeta did it with Imperfect Cell, IIRC it happened with at least one of Freeza's forms in Z, and Resurrection F did it. It's not a bad idea at all. Part of the reason why I love the evil dragons so much is they are varied fights; they're not just "Strong guy #582" like the main Z villains tended to be; one of them appears weak, then weakens you so he becomes strong because Goku is cocky, one of them absorbs Pan so Goku doesn't want to kill him... It's pretty clever.

but still there was no real characterisation aside that [...] 3 star is a coward and 1 star is just the final boss.

See my analysis. Also see below.

4 star is good because goku

Don't be naive. He's an honourable warrior. He's not good, he just would rather have a fair fight with his equal of Goku rather than have everyone blasted into oblivion by Yi Xing Long.
If you want to start criticising that, I suggest you take a look at Vegeta, Raditz, and Piccolo Jr.

But Buu at last has different personalities across the arc before that, and then he transformed into a more brute and pure evil, and even then he had more personality than shenron making stupid things like dancing and taunting goku and vegeta and acting almost baby like and screaming.

As I explained already, they had personalities. Just because you don't like them doesn't mean they don't have personalities. Liang Xing Long is goofy, clumsy, and a bit nuts; San Xing Long is a deceitful and cunning coward who'll do anything to win a fight; Si Xing Long is an honourable warrior who lives for the thrill of the fight, but will die in the name of fairness; Liu Xing Long is a vain control freak; Qi Xing Long is a cocky, sadistic guy who basically exists to indulge himself in whatever he's enjoying at the moment(Be it earthquakes, or emotionally torturing Goku). Wu Xing Long I'll give you, since I can't actually remember his personality, though he's the one I described as "The dull one" before, so... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Anyway, Yi Xing Long was the odd one out in terms of him being an irredeemable, chaotic-evil force of destruction, just like how kid Boo was the odd one out in Boo's forms as the irredeemable, chaotic-evil force of destruction. And sure, he didn't taunt and such at Goku and Vegeta, but if he was a joker he'd be just an expy of kid Boo.
And yes, I will admit he's not as fun as kid Boo was. You got me. Yi Xing Long is not as fun as kid Boo. The villain with the least character in GT is not as fun as an evolved form of the villain with the most character in Z. I don't think anyone would dispute that.

At least he's not a bland non-character with a cliché'd and cheesy backstory who was built up for an entire arc as a really big deal who's just biding his time before revealing how awesome he really is, but turned out to just be yet another boring slab of meat for Goku to punch repeatedly.

no offence, but, I think youre more in love with your description of the story than with the execution that happened in the anime, because all those concepts weren't executed like you describe them, you make it sound like it was the most amazing story ever.

What I'm doing right there is describing what's implied by the presence, attitudes, and interactions of the dragons, aswell as the exposition given about them. A lot of this stuff isn't literally spoon-fed to you on the surface, but good media doesn't spoon-feed you the correct way to read a scene, or understand every detail about the implications of every action. The mark of a truly great work is that it leaves you thinking about its implications years after you originally saw it.
Most of this stuff is fairly easy to arrive at just by watching it, and getting invested in the world created by the story. You don't really get that in Super, they're too busy pausing all progress of the story to over-explain something that didn't need any explanation at all because anyone with half a brain cell can figure it out by just using their head, while also completely not explaining various twists and turns like the Blue Rage, Spirit Sword, or many other phenomenon that simply don't make sense given what's been established so far, or the show decides to somehow manage both, like its explanation of Super Saiyan Blue, which manages to over-explain the most mundane, surface-level stuff about it, while also completely skimming over important stuff like what the hell it actually is, and why the thing he's describing it as isn't just his standard Super Saiyan or base forms, or perhaps just transforming to Red again...

If all you're taking in is literally what's explicitly told to you in the dialogue, then I imagine you're not a fan of the endings of Inception, Terminator 2, The Matrix, Angel, Heroes, or the original run of Prison Break.

I think we just have to accept that everyone of us is different and that "GT only fans" would never accept Super was better, and "Super only fans" will never accept GT was better, even if one part of the fandom is right (no especific side) the other side will not see it like that and it wont accept it ever.

I have never not accepted that. I simply very much enjoy debating and analysing shows like GT and Super. GT is something I enjoy that I can examine to understand why it works, and Super is something I don't enjoy that I can examine to understand why it doesn't work. Both are equally interesting, so while I am very much in the camps of pro-GT and anti-Super, I am glad to have two shows I can compare and contrast in such interesting ways.

Also, you forgot people who like both, people who don't like either, the fact that opinions are never facts, and the issue that no matter what conclusion we reach here, the fandom at large will still frown on GT as "the one wot sucks" whenever it comes up in online discussions, and all YouTube videos that mention it have to either compare it to Super, or be a top 10 list, probably listing "things gt actually did right!!"

I'm not trying to convince you to change your opinion, what's happening here is we're sharing our contrasting opinions on these subjects and having an interesting discussion about it. I don't have to accept anything about people at large, I just have to not run out of vaguely interesting rebuttals to what you're saying, and thus continue the flow of conversation until we all get bored and do something else.

[PsionicWarrior]

Also, you forgot people who like both, people who don't like either, the fact that opinions are never facts, and the issue that no matter what conclusion we reach here, the fandom at large will still frown on GT as "the one wot sucks" whenever it comes up in online discussions, and all YouTube videos that mention it have to either compare it to Super, or be a top 10 list, probably listing "things gt actually did right!!"

Recently someone did some changes in the wiki reception of both shows in favor of GT lol

[sangofe]

wow thanks for your detailed reply man,

Cheers, man. I think anything less would be an injustice to both your argument, and my counterpoints.

but please acknowledge the final result, 130-131 in terms of animation are nothing short of outstanding, had I seen that when I was in school I would have gone nuts lol

I gave up after episode 102, but sure, I'll accept that.
But I still stand by 100% that two nice-looking episodes does not mean a well-animated show, especially not the two final episodes, when the entire animation team is able to focus on getting those two done, with no future episodes in the pipeline, and they probably devoted time that could have been spent on sharpening up the previous few episodes on getting those two right.

Claiming those two episodes represent what the entire series would be incredibly deceptive, and essentially akin to taking a scene from The Dark Knight Rises where Batman says something stupid and lame in response to a kind of odd line from Bane, and saying that represents the entire Dark Knight trilogy.
Make no mistake, that line is goofy, and those two episodes of Super are -- from what I hear, at least -- very well-animated, but the Dark Knight trilogy is a very good movie trilogy, and Super is not a very well-animated show.

so I try to focus on the positive, the current state of the franchise leaves me optimistic for the future,

I try to stay positive, but if I'm not enjoying something, focusing on the positive and ignoring the negative would just be being dishonest with myself, and would mean I'm wasting 20 minutes a week on something I don't like. And, admittedly... That's exactly what I did for quite a while; I did legitimately enjoy the between-arc fillers, and I thought the U6 tournament was a decent-ish first arc, but basically the Black arc was awful to sit through, and the Tournament Of Power, with its unnecessarily and unbelievably slow pace on top of all the other problems in the show, was just the straw that broke the camel's back. With how much I've increasingly hated the direction Super has been going in, I'm very pessimistic about the future of the franchise.

like you I am not a fan of the Top arc and there is a few things I found catastrophic yet it is without doubt the arc which has the better looking fights and better looking art of this series, and managed to pull out a few very Z-esque episodes IMHO

The fights have never been the draw for me. A good fight can be the icing on the cake for a good arc, but if the cake is bad, then the icing won't matter.

So to recap,
does Super has its share of bad episodes? yes
is there too many bad episodes? again yes
Is it a failed or bad show? definitely not,
there still are many moments that reached my DB feelings and I would say at your opposite, that despite the massive amount of issue this show has, it is a good show overall,

With the standards you judge Super by, I'm surprised you don't love GT.

Super hasn't just had a few bad episodes, the vast majority of it has been unfulfilling and lazy at best. GT only really had about six or seven bad episodes, unfortuantely four of them were in the first eight. However, it's generally agreed that basically the entire run of the movie retellings of Super are god-awful, so that's a solid 27 episodes of bad episodes... That's even longer than Star Trek Next Gen's start-up time.

I acknowledge it as being the franchise's worthy successor, and boy am I glad since I basically consider GT doesn't exist lol

Have you even watched GT?
And I don't mean that butchered mess Funimation calls "GT", I mean the real GT. The thing Toei aired on TV, and that Blue Water produced a pretty decent dub of.
And I also don't mean watched the first 3 episodes, then gave up because it wasn't grabbing you either, I mean actually sitting down, giving it a chance, and at least sitting through the first 20 episodes.

I mean getting a proper sample of what the show actually is, and judging it on its own merits, not on what people online tell you to think, not on what you're expecting to think, not on what Funimation is trying and failing to tell you... I mean actually giving the show, the actual show, the chance it deserves, and making your own judgement on it.

Dude. There is much more than two good looking episodes. You have a problem with people hating on GT but what do you do with super?

[Timetraveller]

Super>>>>>>>GT

Super has the best slice of life episodes and the best fights in the entire franchise. GT cant even hold a candle

I can agree with the slice of life part since GT had no filler. Super also had the best fights by far (every one of them in the final arc 100 episodes into the show). Too bad these fights were few and far between and the quality we got in the first 60 or so episodes was mediocre to bad. I prefer the consistent quality of GT and the new character designs over the recolors and reused ones. Anyone watch the SSR Trunks fight that just aired in the dub?

[PFM18]

Super>>>>>>>GT

Super has the best slice of life episodes and the best fights in the entire franchise. GT cant even hold a candle

I can agree with the slice of life part since GT had no filler. Super also had the best fights by far (every one of them in the final arc 100 episodes into the show). Too bad these fights were few and far between and the quality we got in the first 60 or so episodes was mediocre to bad. I prefer the consistent quality of GT and the new character designs over the recolors and reused ones. Anyone watch the SSR Trunks fight that just aired in the dub?

I'm gonna have to vehemently disagree about the good fights coming 100 episodes in. The Cabba vs Vegeta, Hit vs Goku and Vegeta vs Goku Black fights were all far better than anything in GT and on par with anything in Z.

And Gt was only consistently bad in fight scenes. Baby vs Goku is the only remotely compelling fight in the whole series

[Cetra]

Super>>>>>>>GT
And Gt was only consistently bad in fight scenes. Baby vs Goku is the only remotely compelling fight in the whole series

Oh, come on. Rejikku, Rirudo and Goku VS Super 17 were not that hellish.

Also, "DBZ and Super had good fights". Those "good fights" people remember consist so much of a barrage of punches that one hardly can see because they are supposed so fast or clashes of "characters one cannot see because they are too fast". A proper choreography inbetween should be more appreciated. And people still forget that the fights consist so much of what I mentioned above. That might add to style but you can still hardly see anything.

[sunsetshimmer]

And Gt was only consistently bad in fight scenes. Baby vs Goku is the only remotely compelling fight in the whole series

Goku vs Ledgic
Goku vs Rildo
Goku vs Super 17
Goku&Pan vs Oceanus Shenron
Pan vs Haze Shenron
Goku vs Eis Shenron

Those were all good fights. Especially Goku vs Rildo was very good.

[PFM18]

And Gt was only consistently bad in fight scenes. Baby vs Goku is the only remotely compelling fight in the whole series

Goku vs Ledgic
Goku vs Rildo
Goku vs Super 17
Goku&Pan vs Oceanus Shenron
Pan vs Haze Shenron
Goku vs Eis Shenron

Those were all good fights. Especially Goku vs Rildo was very good.

I mean at the end of the day the "quality" of these fights is very subjective. I found the Rildo fight to be incredibly boring and the Ledgic fight to be the 2nd best in the GT series even though it was still bad. Again, personally the only fight I found to be particularly engaging was Goku vs Baby. Maybe in terms of strictly fighting quality, Super 17 vs Goku may be alright, but I felt it made very little sense, so it kind of ruined my engagement/immersion.