SAY-IN - SPECIAL BEAM CAN-IN - SUN GOKU - DESTRUCTO DISK | Why does Dragon Ball STILL suffer with these shortcomings?

[Robo4900]

What was it about Sean saying that Ocean's Kai was crap? Aw man, I really want to see Oceans's Kai now, I need to see a Dragon Ball that's given that kind of treatment!

Nah, Sean Schemmel just didn't like the replacement score.

Scott McNeil (voice of Piccolo, Jheese, and a million others in the Ocean dubs, including Kai) talked publicly a few times about his annoyance with the changes in pronunciation of certain things (specifically, Namek) too. But, I've never seen any negative talk regarding the scripts.

In fact, all I know about the scripts -- aside from them not being Funi's scripts -- is that Brian Drummond recorded both an "Over 8000" and an "Over 9000" (he's unsure which was used in the final mix), and they were allowed to say "Hell" and "Damn".

I do know of the whole Android controversy, I can't remember if I read this in the manga or not, or if this is just Viz, but didn't the characters have a few discussions on whether the 17 and 18 are actually Cyborgs as opposed to Androids? I could have sworn I saw that somewhere, I'll have to go back and check.

Unlikely to be in anything official, unless Funi added the odd line or two to their dub script back in the day. Certainly it wouldn't be in the original Japanese of either the anime or the manga, since the Japanese phrase used works for androids, cyborgs, and Cell.

I know TFS had a running gag of "Well, they're technically not androids, they're cyborgs", which IIRC Cell makes a particular point of correcting Piccolo on, which ultimately is concluded when Cell fails to absorb #16, and he says "What are you made of, metal?" and 16 says "Correct. I am Android 16."

I definitely agree, Sean Schemmel is very philosophical and seems like a sweet guy, who has had so much stress he has had quite a few bumpy rides with fans, however, I definitely cannot stand the whole "Bravado" voice he puts on for Son in Super, the Vegeta traits being thrown in, just everything that really is a parallel to Nozawa's performance in some ways, like, I understand how Son is meant to be in Super, but it's incredibly different, heck, even inconsistent in the dub, and that's probably my biggest pet peeve, is the way lines are delivered, because all in all, line delivery is just as important as the actual dialogue in my opinion, they're like the two halves that come in to establish the moment.

That's fair.
And yeah, I agree, line delivery... Well, the performance overall, is equally important as the script. In fact, arguably moreso. If Saban Z had flat, unengaging performances, it would be a pretty shit dub, but it's actually got a really great cast, so despite being a very inaccurate dub, it's a very enjoyable viewing experience.
For Funi's dubbing in particular, it's a case of to each their own. Me personally, I have trouble getting into an English cast that's not the Ocean cast, so I don't think it's for me to judge. But a lot of people really love the Funi dubs, and I very much agree with certain praise laid at the feet of a few of the actors in particular (Chris Ayres as Freeza is perfect casting), so clearly they're doing something right.

I could be off the mark here, but do you know anything about how dubbing rights works? Because I thought that if an English licencor has bought rights to DB, then doesn't that mean only they can do the English dub for it? Or can different companies depending on different regions do dubs? I ask this because I do have a tiny bit of hope that someone will see this and possibly be part of a dubbing company who may consider taking up what we've been talking about.

Dubbing rights aren't exclusive. Toei are unlikely to, say, let multiple different companies provide home media in one country, but anyone can reach out to Toei and negotiate the rights to produce a dub, then reach out to TV stations, streaming services, etc. to get it out there (in fact, in theory, I'm pretty sure two different platforms in the same country could be airing different dubs).
In theory, if Netflix wanted to, they could try negotiating to do an alternate dub of Dragon Ball, and they could use the Ocean cast to do it, if they felt like hiring Ocean would be a good idea (though if Netflix did something, they'd likely cast it out of LA using a non-union cast).

But, it all depends on whether any companies WANT to try. And it seems no one has wanted to try since IPP/Ocean produced their still-unreleased Kai dub.

I guess so, but then if the vast majority don't care or don't know any better, I still feel a slow transaction to an accurate dub would do the fandom some real good, because when I talk with people about Dragon Ball, there is a large disconnect between the franchise I know, and what they know, so that tells me there's something not being done right.

There wouldn't need to be a slow transition. They could just stop putting changes in their scripts. Almost no one would notice, to be honest. Probably would make Funi's script adaptors' jobs a little easier, though, if they don't have to work in loads of extra jokes and such to add in.

I just have hope that possibly a new dub will come up sometime, and a new generation will come along with that dub, because in all honesty, I feel that we could have had a much better road if Funi didn't try to appeal to fans who to be honest, weren't in the majority anymore, sure, they would have had a moan if Funi did it accurately, but the new fans wouldn't care/know any better, and I probably wouldn't be having a hard time when it comes to discussing Dragon Ball with a few friends.

Honestly, my ideal scenario would be that Netflix pick up Dragon Ball and produce an alternate dub recorded in Vancouver, using their Kai cast. (And they could probably get a pretty quick, easy, cheap uncut dub track for Kai done by having Ocean dig out their raw Kai recordings, then have the actors come back and do some alternate/additional lines to cover what was originally cut or otherwise censored. Would make an interesting companion piece to the TV-safe version that already exists, and would presumably be released on Netflix if they decided to try reviving Ocean-dubbed Dragon Ball)
Then, Netflix air that dub in the UK, Canada, and some other territories. Then, Funi get to give their dub to the US fans who've consistently had Funi since 1999, and British, Canadian etc. fans get to have the Ocean cast like we've pretty much always had since 2001, and the hardcore fans get to enjoy TWO English dubs, with their own uniquely cool pros and cons.

That's one of the reasons I wanted to push for people to Tweet, send emails, submit title requests, and such to Netflix about Ocean's Kai... I think if Netflix UK & CA picked it up, it would be an ideal platform, and on top of that, if it did well, it could lead to Netflix comissioning an Ocean TFC dub, and an Ocean Super dub.
(Though the main reason is that I think Netflix UK/CA would be the perfect platform for Ocean Kai, and a support rep literally told me that if enough people Tweet and send in title request submissions, then it'll be put high on the list of titles for them to acquire. And right now, with lockdown, people desperate for content... I think now would be the perfect time for a renewed push at this. The only problem so far is that no one with any reach has been willing to get the word out about this at all, so we kinda stalled last time, though we made a surprising amount of progress. And this wasn't even that long ago, so... I think it's still doable)

[MyVisionity]

I do know of the whole Android controversy, I can't remember if I read this in the manga or not, or if this is just Viz, but didn't the characters have a few discussions on whether the 17 and 18 are actually Cyborgs as opposed to Androids? I could have sworn I saw that somewhere, I'll have to go back and check.

In the original, 17 and 18 were stated to have been humans who were transformed into jinzouningen by Dr. Gero, while 16 is pure robot. The entire reason that Gero went from his usual machines to humans is because Cell would need living energy in order to become complete.

[Aim]

Nah, Sean Schemmel just didn't like the replacement score.

Scott McNeil (voice of Piccolo, Jheese, and a million others in the Ocean dubs, including Kai) talked publicly a few times about his annoyance with the changes in pronunciation of certain things (specifically, Namek) too. But, I've never seen any negative talk regarding the scripts.

In fact, all I know about the scripts -- aside from them not being Funi's scripts -- is that Brian Drummond recorded both an "Over 8000" and an "Over 9000" (he's unsure which was used in the final mix), and they were allowed to say "Hell" and "Damn".

That's very interesting, I'm surprised they'd have a problem with the proper pronunciations. Do you know if they say Saiyan correctly?

Btw, is it "Nah(ar)-mek" or "Naw-mek"? I tried doing research but it was very confusing, still confused on how to put emphasis on the "mek".

Unlikely to be in anything official, unless Funi added the odd line or two to their dub script back in the day. Certainly it wouldn't be in the original Japanese of either the anime or the manga, since the Japanese phrase used works for androids, cyborgs, and Cell.

I know TFS had a running gag of "Well, they're technically not androids, they're cyborgs", which IIRC Cell makes a particular point of correcting Piccolo on, which ultimately is concluded when Cell fails to absorb #16, and he says "What are you made of, metal?" and 16 says "Correct. I am Android 16."

I checked the manga, Viz version, and Trunks did clarify that they were Cyborgs, after calling them Androids, but I don't think it was corrected any further.

Is "Mechanical Human" a good translation that's also an umbrella term like the Japanese?

That's fair.
And yeah, I agree, line delivery... Well, the performance overall, is equally important as the script. In fact, arguably moreso. If Saban Z had flat, unengaging performances, it would be a pretty shit dub, but it's actually got a really great cast, so despite being a very inaccurate dub, it's a very enjoyable viewing experience.
For Funi's dubbing in particular, it's a case of to each their own. Me personally, I have trouble getting into an English cast that's not the Ocean cast, so I don't think it's for me to judge. But a lot of people really love the Funi dubs, and I very much agree with certain praise laid at the feet of a few of the actors in particular (Chris Ayres as Freeza is perfect casting), so clearly they're doing something right.

Chris Arye's is good, but I do dislike their use of him, he's wayy to sassy in the dub. Just random changes as usual.

Dubbing rights aren't exclusive. Toei are unlikely to, say, let multiple different companies provide home media in one country, but anyone can reach out to Toei and negotiate the rights to produce a dub, then reach out to TV stations, streaming services, etc. to get it out there (in fact, in theory, I'm pretty sure two different platforms in the same country could be airing different dubs).
In theory, if Netflix wanted to, they could try negotiating to do an alternate dub of Dragon Ball, and they could use the Ocean cast to do it, if they felt like hiring Ocean would be a good idea (though if Netflix did something, they'd likely cast it out of LA using a non-union cast).

But, it all depends on whether any companies WANT to try. And it seems no one has wanted to try since IPP/Ocean produced their still-unreleased Kai dub.

That definitely gives me hope!

There wouldn't need to be a slow transition. They could just stop putting changes in their scripts. Almost no one would notice, to be honest. Probably would make Funi's script adaptors' jobs a little easier, though, if they don't have to work in loads of extra jokes and such to add in.

Totally agree!

Honestly, my ideal scenario would be that Netflix pick up Dragon Ball and produce an alternate dub recorded in Vancouver, using their Kai cast. (And they could probably get a pretty quick, easy, cheap uncut dub track for Kai done by having Ocean dig out their raw Kai recordings, then have the actors come back and do some alternate/additional lines to cover what was originally cut or otherwise censored. Would make an interesting companion piece to the TV-safe version that already exists, and would presumably be released on Netflix if they decided to try reviving Ocean-dubbed Dragon Ball)
Then, Netflix air that dub in the UK, Canada, and some other territories. Then, Funi get to give their dub to the US fans who've consistently had Funi since 1999, and British, Canadian etc. fans get to have the Ocean cast like we've pretty much always had since 2001, and the hardcore fans get to enjoy TWO English dubs, with their own uniquely cool pros and cons.

That's one of the reasons I wanted to push for people to Tweet, send emails, submit title requests, and such to Netflix about Ocean's Kai... I think if Netflix UK & CA picked it up, it would be an ideal platform, and on top of that, if it did well, it could lead to Netflix comissioning an Ocean TFC dub, and an Ocean Super dub.
(Though the main reason is that I think Netflix UK/CA would be the perfect platform for Ocean Kai, and a support rep literally told me that if enough people Tweet and send in title request submissions, then it'll be put high on the list of titles for them to acquire. And right now, with lockdown, people desperate for content... I think now would be the perfect time for a renewed push at this. The only problem so far is that no one with any reach has been willing to get the word out about this at all, so we kinda stalled last time, though we made a surprising amount of progress. And this wasn't even that long ago, so... I think it's still doable)

I'll actually do that! Definitely contacting them when I get the chance.

Personally, my ideal scenario, if we are talking realistically, basically the same as you. If we are talking like, "the dream", I'd love to see a Dragon Ball where the VA's are incredibly close to their Japanese counterparts.

[Robo4900]

That's very interesting, I'm surprised they'd have a problem with the proper pronunciations. Do you know if they say Saiyan correctly?

Btw, is it "Nah(ar)-mek" or "Naw-mek"? I tried doing research but it was very confusing, still confused on how to put emphasis on the "mek".

Their issue isn't a case of "I don't like them making it accurate", it's a case of like... Scott McNeil has played Piccolo since 1996 (possibly 1995; I don't know when the Saban dub began recording), and he always pronounced certain things a certain way, and people at cons, etc. always pronounce those things the same way, so he found it weird that things would suddenly change. Kinda tripped him up, and struck him as weird.

As for how the pronunciation itself sounds, to my ears, it's like "Nar-meck"... But, writing phonetics in text using normal English letters is weird, so here's Scott saying it, and talking about it. FWIW, it's a lot closer to how it's said in Japanese this way.
Here's another video where he says it the Japanese/Ocean Kai way. (The con this video is from happened when he was still recording for Ocean Kai, fwiw)

Is "Mechanical Human" a good translation that's also an umbrella term like the Japanese?

No, because Cell isn't mechanical.
Engineered Humanoid may work, but arguably that's even more clunky than Artificial Human.

Synthetic lifeform might work? IDK.

I'll actually do that! Definitely contacting them when I get the chance.

Cheers.

Personally, my ideal scenario, if we are talking realistically, basically the same as you. If we are talking like, "the dream", I'd love to see a Dragon Ball where the VA's are incredibly close to their Japanese counterparts.

[Adamant]

Regarding the entire "what is a jinzoningen" thing, the various terms are kinda fuzzy in Japan too. I'm looking at the wikipedia article for the jinzoningen term, and it mentions that the TV show Jinzoningen Kikaider, which is apparently officially titled "Android Kikaider" in English, features a Dr. Gero-type creature named Hakaider who's 100% robot aside from his human brain. The character is referred to as a "jinzoningen" in the show itself, while his theme song features the line "I am a robot, a cyborg".
The article also mentions an English-Japanese Dictionary from the 70s that gave "jinzoningen" as a translation of the English word cyborg.

[LoganForkHands73]

Regarding the entire "what is a jinzoningen" thing, the various terms are kinda fuzzy in Japan too. I'm looking at the wikipedia article for the jinzoningen term, and it mentions that the TV show Jinzoningen Kikaider, which is apparently officially titled "Android Kikaider" in English, features a Dr. Gero-type creature named Hakaider who's 100% robot aside from his human brain. The character is referred to as a "jinzoningen" in the show itself, while his theme song features the line "I am a robot, a cyborg".
The article also mentions an English-Japanese Dictionary from the 70s that gave "jinzoningen" as a translation of the English word cyborg.

Kikaider has a sick design as well.

[MyVisionity]

A jinzouningen is all those things. Robot, android, cyborg, creatures grown in labs, etc.

[linkdude20002001]

Oop, thanks for clearing that up, gonna change that now. With Son Goku, it would be pronounced "So-n", right? Not "Su-n"?

Yes. That's exactly it. Sun is pronounced like the English word "soon", and Son is pronounced as the English words "sown" and "sewn". Just like Schemmel pronounced it that one time, in Kai, before (I'm assuming) FUNimation made him go back to saying it wrong. He said he had to fight to use the correct pronunciation, and only got it in becuz he made sure to do way better in the one take where he pronounced it correctly than in all the takes where he pronounced it incorrectly. Perhaps they wanted consistency, but at the time, they only had said it once before, in Burst Limit. And it was only said that way cuz Schemmel didn't know how to pronounce it, as he doesn't know Japanese. For reference sake, he learnd how to pronounce "Son" on Facebook, from me. Anyway, I guess this might explain to you why it's still pronounced incorrectly after all these years and all these redubs / attempts to be more faithful.

[Adamant]

A jinzouningen is all those things. Robot, android, cyborg, creatures grown in labs, etc.

No, it's not simply a blanket term. As I said, it's a bit fuzzy.

Quoting the article:

"Jinzoningen" is a general term for machines and artificial life forms made to resemble humans, such as humanoid robots.

(...)

As described in the [[Cyborg]] article, a cyborg is a human or animal whose bodily functions are being assisted or strengthened by automated control technology, and in Japan the word typically refers to a human whose body and abilities have been strengthened with mechanisms, but depending on how much of the human body remains (or is used), it's sometimes a question of whether or not the word cyborg should still be used, so in some instances the terms "jinzoningen" and "robot" get used as well. In addition, some English-Japanese dictionaries give "jinzoningen" as a Japanese translation of "cyborg".

tldr jinzoningen is not a blanket term for both android and cyborg, but there are some instances where the term is used about someone who should technically count as a cyborg, typically when they're more robot than person. It uses Hakaider as an example, pointing out that he's referred to as both a jinzoningen, a cyborg AND a robot.

[Adamant]

Oh, also

Btw, is it "Nah(ar)-mek" or "Naw-mek"? I tried doing research but it was very confusing, still confused on how to put emphasis on the "mek".

It's "Namekku", a pun on "namekuji" (slug). All the constant mispronunciations in English are largely a result of the decision to spell it "Namek" rather than the far more sensible "Nameck".

[MyVisionity]

A jinzouningen is all those things. Robot, android, cyborg, creatures grown in labs, etc.

No, it's not simply a blanket term. As I said, it's a bit fuzzy.

Quoting the article:

"Jinzoningen" is a general term for machines and artificial life forms made to resemble humans, such as humanoid robots.

(...)

As described in the [[Cyborg]] article, a cyborg is a human or animal whose bodily functions are being assisted or strengthened by automated control technology, and in Japan the word typically refers to a human whose body and abilities have been strengthened with mechanisms, but depending on how much of the human body remains (or is used), it's sometimes a question of whether or not the word cyborg should still be used, so in some instances the terms "jinzoningen" and "robot" get used as well. In addition, some English-Japanese dictionaries give "jinzoningen" as a Japanese translation of "cyborg".

tldr jinzoningen is not a blanket term for both android and cyborg, but there are some instances where the term is used about someone who should technically count as a cyborg, typically when they're more robot than person. It uses Hakaider as an example, pointing out that he's referred to as both a jinzoningen, a cyborg AND a robot.

"Cyborg" is about the only thing I would pull out of the definition. But as you stated, it can be "fuzzy". I agree that jinzouningen is most commonly used for androids.

Oh, also

Btw, is it "Nah(ar)-mek" or "Naw-mek"? I tried doing research but it was very confusing, still confused on how to put emphasis on the "mek".

It's "Namekku", a pun on "namekuji" (slug). All the constant mispronunciations in English are largely a result of the decision to spell it "Namek" rather than the far more sensible "Nameck".

Personally I've never had any problem with the English pronunciation. It's not much of a shift from the Japanese and also makes sense in American English.

[Aim]

No, it's not simply a blanket term. As I said, it's a bit fuzzy.

Quoting the article:

"Jinzoningen" is a general term for machines and artificial life forms made to resemble humans, such as humanoid robots.

(...)

As described in the [[Cyborg]] article, a cyborg is a human or animal whose bodily functions are being assisted or strengthened by automated control technology, and in Japan the word typically refers to a human whose body and abilities have been strengthened with mechanisms, but depending on how much of the human body remains (or is used), it's sometimes a question of whether or not the word cyborg should still be used, so in some instances the terms "jinzoningen" and "robot" get used as well. In addition, some English-Japanese dictionaries give "jinzoningen" as a Japanese translation of "cyborg".

tldr jinzoningen is not a blanket term for both android and cyborg, but there are some instances where the term is used about someone who should technically count as a cyborg, typically when they're more robot than person. It uses Hakaider as an example, pointing out that he's referred to as both a jinzoningen, a cyborg AND a robot.

So how would one accurately translate that? Would if it have to be separate labels in English? So like, #17 and #18 would be called "Cyborgs", #16 would be an Android, and Cell an "Artificial Life form"?

Oh, also
It's "Namekku", a pun on "namekuji" (slug). All the constant mispronunciations in English are largely a result of the decision to spell it "Namek" rather than the far more sensible "Nameck".

I know the pun and origins, I'm just wondering how to pronounce it. So spelling it "Namek" makes it "Na-meck" while spelling it "Nameck" makes it "Nah(Nar)-meck"? Makes sense, when I read "Nameck" it made sense to say "Nar-meck", idk if that's because of the whole "mek" vs "meck" thing or what.

[Adamant]

So how would one accurately translate that? Would if it have to be separate labels in English? So like, #17 and #18 would be called "Cyborgs", #16 would be an Android, and Cell an "Artificial Life form"?

That's the million dollar question, innit? tbh I don't think there's any real good answer to it, and like that wikipedia article says, "jinzoningen" is a kinda weird and not entirely appropriate term to refer to 17 and 18 in Japanese as well.

Regarding Cell, well, over at Marvel they got this guy:



He's very specially referred to as an "android", yet he's an artificial life form grown in a lab. If he's an android, surely that would make Cell an android too. Did Stan Lee use the wrong term? Did Toriyama use the wrong term? Do we just go with the terms the author uses even when we know they don't mean what the author thinks they mean? What if they, like in this instance, are terms that primarily get used in fiction? Just call em what you want, whether that be androids or cyborgs or artificial humans or jinzoningen or whatever. All of these choices are flawed in SOME way.

And on that topic

I actually enjoyed reading that, I think you are spot on in a lot of points. The whole "Jinzoningen" thing is so stupid, just call them Cyborgs or Androids, I understand being accurate, but if someones going to call them by the Japanese names and then insist those names are used in a dub, then there's no point because the whole point of the English dub is to translate to English.

I don't really see how it's stupid to just say "jinzoningen" if you feel any of the potential English terms just come across as misrepresentative. At least there's logic in it, unlike stuff like saying "Kami" instead of God, which way more people do. Including that one "English dub whose whole point is to translate to English".

"Artificial Humans" is what the subs use, though I've never liked that adaptation either; much as Simmons' subtitles are an excellent, accurate translation of the original, Simmons wrote them to help you understand what the Japanese is saying, he didn't tend to put much work in making the subs flow naturally as dialogue, and "Artificial Humans" is a pretty great example of this; it's not perfect either, since Cell is not exactly human, artificial or otherwise, but it gets the point across better than any other way of referring to them that I've seen, so for a subtitle track, it gets the job done without resorting to clunky TL notes.

"Jinzoningen" literally translates straight to "artificial human (or even more literally, "man-made human"). Ningen means human. Simmons didn't randomly toss that word in there.
Also, you should probably read this thread by Herms that provides a rundown of what does and doesn't count as "human" in this franchise.

I know the pun and origins, I'm just wondering how to pronounce it. So spelling it "Namek" makes it "Na-meck" while spelling it "Nameck" makes it "Nah(Nar)-meck"? Makes sense, when I read "Nameck" it made sense to say "Nar-meck", idk if that's because of the whole "mek" vs "meck" thing or what.

I have no idea what kind of pronunciation you're even trying to get across there, but it sort of rhymes with "bedeck", I guess.

EDIT: Clicked on those links above. Yeah, the point is that it's "Na-MECK", not "nemmeck" and definitely not "NAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA... meck" like that guy seems to think.
tldr pronounce it like you pronounce "bedeck", not like "hammock" or "airdeck". Best explanation I can give.

[MyVisionity]

"Artificial Humans" is what the subs use, though I've never liked that adaptation either; much as Simmons' subtitles are an excellent, accurate translation of the original, Simmons wrote them to help you understand what the Japanese is saying, he didn't tend to put much work in making the subs flow naturally as dialogue, and "Artificial Humans" is a pretty great example of this; it's not perfect either, since Cell is not exactly human, artificial or otherwise, but it gets the point across better than any other way of referring to them that I've seen, so for a subtitle track, it gets the job done without resorting to clunky TL notes.

"Jinzoningen" literally translates straight to "artificial human (or even more literally, "man-made human"). Ningen means human. Simmons didn't randomly toss that word in there.
Also, you should probably read this thread by Herms that provides a rundown of what does and doesn't count as "human" in this franchise.

That's the issue. It's *too* literal. If you have to break the term down into its most literal parts to translate it, then there might be a problem.

Also, ningen doesn't necessarily have to translate into "human" specifically, which is the reason why so many different types of characters are called it. It's not really about any kind of "franchise rules".

[Robo4900]

"Jinzoningen" literally translates straight to "artificial human (or even more literally, "man-made human"). Ningen means human. Simmons didn't randomly toss that word in there.
Also, you should probably read this thread by Herms that provides a rundown of what does and doesn't count as "human" in this franchise.

I'd appreciate it if you didn't automatically assume I have no idea what I'm talking about.

My understanding is that, at least in Dragon Ball, "Ningen" is kinda halfway between "human" and "person", really, so something like "Artificial humanoid" would be another literal way to translate it.
But, in general, yes, "Artificial human" is a literal translation that functions in the subtitles just fine... That doesn't make "Artificual human" a natural adaptation of the original meaning that would work in real dialogue delivered by an actor in a dub, and arguably it doesn't work perfectly in the subs anyway because Cell isn't exactly a human (you can argue deep lore and intricacies of Japanese all you like, using the literal English words "Artificial human" is clunky, and doesn't exactly describe Cell); that's the point I was making.

The subs work great as a way for an English-speaker who doesn't know Japanese to understand what's being said in the Japanese vesrion, but I'd challenge the wisdom of anyone who says they're a perfect translation.

[Adamant]

That's the issue. It's *too* literal. If you have to break the term down into its most literal parts to translate it, then there might be a problem.

Also, ningen doesn't necessarily have to translate into "human" specifically, which is the reason why so many different types of characters are called it. It's not really about any kind of "franchise rules".

Interpreting "jinzoningen" as "a ningen that is jinzo" is... really not being too literal. Are you saying Simmons should've written "Artificialmen" or something instead?
I have a feeling your Japanese isn't all that, but you should probably give that wikipedia article about jinzoningen a read alongside that Herms thread that talks about things like "human-type humans" and whatnot.

arguably it doesn't work perfectly in the subs anyway because Cell isn't exactly a human (you can argue deep lore and intricacies of Japanese all you like, using the literal English words "Artificial human" is clunky, and doesn't exactly describe Cell); that's the point I was making

Simmons also had Ginyu calls himself a human, do you have a problem with that as well?

[Robo4900]

arguably it doesn't work perfectly in the subs anyway because Cell isn't exactly a human (you can argue deep lore and intricacies of Japanese all you like, using the literal English words "Artificial human" is clunky, and doesn't exactly describe Cell); that's the point I was making

Simmons also had Ginyu calls himself a human, do you have a problem with that as well?

Sure, why not.

He's clearly an alien, so it's a bit weird for him to call himself a human, I guess.

Again, I imagine the word was "Ningen", which I'm given to understand doesn't have the same "Sentient humanoid earthling"/"homo sapien" meaning that "human" has in English. Piccolo isn't a human, he's a Namekian, but I imagine it would be okay for him to say he is a "Ningen" in Japanese.

Thing is, Simmons' subs are very literal, so you end up with oddities like "Wait, Ginyu is calling himself a human? Wat?" and some general clunkiness of phrasings and things. Again, would you really expect any dub to use the term "Artificial humans" to describe the cyborgs and Cell?

[Adamant]

Again, I imagine the word was "Ningen", which I'm given to understand doesn't have the same "Sentient humanoid earthling"/homo sapien sapien meaning that it does in English.

It does.

https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/ヒト

"Hito" (English: Human), Homo sapiens sapiens, is used in a broad sense to refer to animals belonging to the subtribe hominina, and in a narrow sense to refer to present day (currently living) mankind (Scientific name: Homo sapiens). Also called "ningen".

Can we stop here and have you read that Herms thread now instead of claiming "translating ningen as human is arguing deep lore and intricacies of Japanese"?

[Robo4900]

Again, I imagine the word was "Ningen", which I'm given to understand doesn't have the same "Sentient humanoid earthling"/homo sapien sapien meaning that it does in English.

It does.

https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/ヒト

"Hito" (English: Human), Homo sapiens sapiens, is used in a broad sense to refer to animals belonging to the subtribe hominina, and in a narrow sense to present day (currently living) mankind (Scientific name: Homo sapiens). Also called "ningen".

Can we stop here and have you read that Herms thread now instead of claiming "translating ningen as human is arguing deep lore and intricacies of Japanese"?

No, because that thread, as well as you so confidently stating that "ningen" is literally a Japanese version of the English word "Human", just makes it even more confusing that Ginyu, Cell, et al. are "humans". Though, in fairness, if your only source of this understanding you've reached is Wikipedia, I'd say your research is unreliable, and in addition, I'd argue that article is about the word "Hito", which then says that the things it's describing can also be called "ningen", which doesn't mean that "ningen" else has literally the same meaning and no other possible meaning, so just as with your conclusion that "ningen" is literally a Japanese version of the English word "human", all you've achieved by quoting Wikipedia is raise further questions.

And, much as Herms' thread very nicely explains and breaks down just how many things are called "Humans", I don't see much in the way of any kind of attempt to explain this, because if you ask me, giving me examples of things that are not humans being called humans, just raises further questions... Is this a quirk of Toriyama's writing? Is it a thing in general Japanese writing?...
There's a lot of questions here that aren't answered by saying "no, you're wrong, shut up and read this thing that says you're wrong, and gives all these examples of the things you're wrong about."
Maybe I missed something in Herms' thread that explains this? If I did, I'd be interested to see that specific section pointed out, 'cause I'm not seeing it.

[Adamant]

No, because that thread, and you telling me it does, just makes it even more confusing that Ginyu, Cell, et al. are "humans". Though, in fairness, if your only source of this understanding you've reached is Wikipedia, I'd say your research is unreliable, and in addition, I'd argue that article is about the word "Hito", which then says that the things it's describing can also be called something else, doesn't mean that something else has literally the same meaning and no other possible meaning, so just as with your conclusion that "ningen" is literally a Japanese version of the English word "human", all you've achieved by quoting Wikipedia is raising further questions.

...if you're so convinced "ningen" is this super meaningful word that cannot possibly be translated into English as "human" you should probably locate some sources for that claim beyond "my understanding", because come on man, I've provided translations of articles explaining both the words "cyborg", "jinzoningen" and "ningen" itself, plus references to the use of "jinzoningen" in Japanese media to refer to certain people that are arguably cyborgs. I don't know what else to tell you.

If you're this convinced Simmons, Herms and whoever translated the manga for Viz were wrong when they translated ningen as "human" I suggest poking Herms on Twitter about it, because I'm not super interested in dragging this on any longer.