Kai Episode 34 (29 November 2009)

[Khalid Shahin]

General Discussion for DragonBall Kai episode 34, aired 29 November 2009.

ビックリ！悟空がギニューでギニューが悟空！？
Bikkuri! Gokuu ga Ginyuu de Ginyuu ga Gokuu!?
Surprise! Goku is Ginyu and Ginyu is Goku?!

[coola]

Very good episode, and the most beautiful looking one. In my opinion, they should stick with this remaster style for rest of the series.

[kei17]

Very good episode, and the most beautiful looking one. In my opinion, they should stick with this remaster style for rest of the series.

I guess that video quality is not because of "remaster style" but the difference of the master they used. 16mm film cannot keep the footage in high definition like this episode. They used the 35mm negative film master. On DBOX, only episode 73 to 80 have the nega-telecinated footage. So it means we can enjoy Kai with high quality footage until Piccolo arrives.

[Adamant]

By far the most improved fight yet. This battle was horrendous in DBZ, with all the filler parts and repeated animation.

[penguintruth]

I'm going to go ahead and say that the entire Ginyu Tokusentai part has been, on the whole, better in Kai than it was in the first cut. My only complaint has been some of the lackluster voice acting and music, but you can't beat the pacing.

[Duo]

I have loved seeing these portions as of late, given we're getting to the period of time in which the Anime suffered the worst due to being filled out.

[SSj_Rambo]

Very good episode, and the most beautiful looking one. In my opinion, they should stick with this remaster style for rest of the series.

I guess that video quality is not because of "remaster style" but the difference of the master they used. 16mm film cannot keep the footage in high definition like this episode. They used the 35mm negative film master. On DBOX, only episode 73 to 80 have the nega-telecinated footage. So it means we can enjoy Kai with high quality footage until Piccolo arrives.

Then wouldn't the 35mm footage have been better to use for the Dragon Box as well?

[kei17]

Then wouldn't the 35mm footage have been better to use for the Dragon Box as well?

Check out your DBOX. Episode 73 to 80 in it have the better footage (no jitter, less colour fade, high definition) than other episodes'.

Normally, negative film master is to be discarded after printing positive film master. It is very lucky that 35mm negative masters around episode 73-80 still exist.

[SSj_Rambo]

Then wouldn't the 35mm footage have been better to use for the Dragon Box as well?

Check out your DBOX. Episode 73 to 80 in it have the better footage (no jitter, less colour fade, high definition) than other episodes'.

Normally, negative film master is to be discarded after printing positive film master. It is very lucky that 35mm negative masters around episode 73-80 still exist.

Wow, that kinda came back to bite them, I guess.

[jjgp1112]

Hell, those episodes look better even on the Season sets, which is something I noticed for a really long time.

[obiwan23s]

For the most part I'm still really pleased with Kai. The soundtrack is growing on me to the point where I genuinely do enjoy certain pieces. Looking forward to seeing how long it takes Goku to get out of the healing tank and start fighting Freeza though. In the original run it felt like forever.

[sangofe]

Very good episode, and the most beautiful looking one. In my opinion, they should stick with this remaster style for rest of the series.

I guess that video quality is not because of "remaster style" but the difference of the master they used. 16mm film cannot keep the footage in high definition like this episode. They used the 35mm negative film master. On DBOX, only episode 73 to 80 have the nega-telecinated footage. So it means we can enjoy Kai with high quality footage until Piccolo arrives.

Wait, are you saying the 35 mm "negative source" is better than the 16 mm source? In that case, why did they not use this source for all of the Dragonbox? It just doesn't make any sense.

Edit: seems like this got answered already...

[Khalid Shahin]

For the most part I'm still really pleased with Kai. The soundtrack is growing on me to the point where I genuinely do enjoy certain pieces. Looking forward to seeing how long it takes Goku to get out of the healing tank and start fighting Freeza though. In the original run it felt like forever.

That's how it was in the manga right?

[Daimo-Rukiri]

My memories fading I guess but the DBOX looks pretty damn good to me but yea those episodes look pretty awesome.

[Kendamu]

For the most part I'm still really pleased with Kai. The soundtrack is growing on me to the point where I genuinely do enjoy certain pieces. Looking forward to seeing how long it takes Goku to get out of the healing tank and start fighting Freeza though. In the original run it felt like forever.

That's how it was in the manga right?

Not if you read it by the volume.

[Khalid Shahin]

For the most part I'm still really pleased with Kai. The soundtrack is growing on me to the point where I genuinely do enjoy certain pieces. Looking forward to seeing how long it takes Goku to get out of the healing tank and start fighting Freeza though. In the original run it felt like forever.

That's how it was in the manga right?

Not if you read it by the volume.

I did read it by volume, and it seemed like it took a while relative to the things happening. And the show naturally has things drawn out.

[MajinVejitaXV]

I guess that video quality is not because of "remaster style" but the difference of the master they used. 16mm film cannot keep the footage in high definition like this episode. They used the 35mm negative film master. On DBOX, only episode 73 to 80 have the nega-telecinated footage. So it means we can enjoy Kai with high quality footage until Piccolo arrives.

Check out your DBOX. Episode 73 to 80 in it have the better footage (no jitter, less colour fade, high definition) than other episodes'.

Normally, negative film master is to be discarded after printing positive film master. It is very lucky that 35mm negative masters around episode 73-80 still exist.

At the risk of sounding dumb...What?

The original cel photography, from everything I've seen, says 16mm for the series and 35mm for the films. So...how would a 35mm negative exist for the episodes? It doesn't make any sense to me, but if you can provide some credible source I'm more than willing to learn. I know some motion pictures are done on 35mm and "printed down" to 16mm, but I've never seen anything that indicates this with DragonBall.

Also, how would jitter be impacted? Jitter is introduced simply by the fact of cels being misaligned when photographed. It doesn't have to do with the film medium. I'm also not sure how color fidelity would be impacted, since I've read it's more to do with the stock base (tri-acetate vs. polyester, for instance) and how its stored, not the gauge of the film.

Also, it's somewhat misleading to say that these episodes have more 'definition' on the DragonBox. All the episodes are 480p, so they're all equal in terms of resolution. More detail might be a better descriptor, but I'll have to check the episodes later on and give my opinion.

-Corey

[kei17]

The original cel photography, from everything I've seen, says 16mm for the series and 35mm for the films. So...how would a 35mm negative exist for the episodes? It doesn't make any sense to me, but if you can provide some credible source I'm more than willing to learn. I know some motion pictures are done on 35mm and "printed down" to 16mm, but I've never seen anything that indicates this with DragonBall.

Every old Japanese TV anime (until the end of the '70s) was recorded on 35mm and printed down to 16mm for broadcasting use. This is the fact I know. Then, I thought Toei would've done it even in the '80s because Toei Animation is always stubborn and tends to continue using old techniques. This is just a guess work, but at least it is clear that this episode had the 35mm footage.

An example of the difference between 16mm and 35mm footage. This is exactly what happened on Kai.


There is also a possibility that they used 35mm just on these episodes and not all episodes had the 35mm negative master. Some episodes of Gunbuster were done on 35mm but the others weren't because of the budget.

Also, how would jitter be impacted? Jitter is introduced simply by the fact of cels being misaligned when photographed. It doesn't have to do with the film medium.

The footage of the original airing clearly has less Jitter. Jitter can be impacted by deterioration of the film. Or do you think old movies have serious jitter because camera operators just sucked at that time?

I'm also not sure how color fidelity would be impacted, since I've read it's more to do with the stock base (tri-acetate vs. polyester, for instance) and how its stored, not the gauge of the film.

Positive master tends to be telecinated (exposed in the light and to air) many a time but once on negative master. In addition, normal DBOX footage isn't colour adjusted, but since you have to adjust colours when you print positive film or nega-telecinate, episode 73 to 80 can have the better colours than others' if their footage is nega-telecinated.

Also, it's somewhat misleading to say that these episodes have more 'definition' on the DragonBox. All the episodes are 480p, so they're all equal in terms of resolution. More detail might be a better descriptor, but I'll have to check the episodes later on and give my opinion.

You are right. I should have said "the footage of these episode has more detail than others'". It's simply because of my bad English, though.

[MajinVejitaXV]

Every old Japanese TV anime (until the end of the '70s) was recorded on 35mm and printed down to 16mm for broadcasting use. This is the fact I know.

Can you reference something? I just find it odd, since television stations don't get film reels. They get tapes. Typically, from what I've been told, it was "cels --> 16mm negative --> 16mm interpositive --> D2 tape." That's why we run into the problem of things the television stations do being horrid quality if included at all on a DVD release, because it's a tape master and not a film master. Plus, the whole point of 16mm film is that it is economical, so photographing the animation on 35mm then destroying that master (in this case) is basically the equivalent of burning money.

Plus, what I've read is that TV animation was typically shot on 16mm (or 8mm if we're really going back a ways). OVAs were 35mm or 16mm (or both, like Gunbuster which you reference below). Finally, movies were 35mm (much like the DragonBall feature films). Then you have digital animation, which was mostly done in standard definition until not too long ago.

I'm not saying it isn't possible, it just sounds...incredibly stupid on their part. Even for Toei.

There is also a possibility that they used 35mm just on these episodes and not all episodes had the 35mm negative master. Some episodes of Gunbuster were done on 35mm but the others weren't because of the budget.

Still, it seems like a wildly random selection. Nothing really huge happens here. You'd think, much like the variation in animation quality, that episodes with 'big moments' would get a 35mm treatment if any. Plus, like I mentioned above, Gunbuster was an OVA. Very different budget for a 6 episode OVA than a 291 episode weekly series.

Also, how would jitter be impacted? Jitter is introduced simply by the fact of cels being misaligned when photographed. It doesn't have to do with the film medium.

The footage of the original airing clearly has less Jitter. Jitter can be impacted by deterioration of the film. Or do you think old movies have serious jitter because camera operators just sucked at that time?

'The footage of the original airing clearly has less jitter' than what? The DragonBoxes? Kai?

Plus, the jitter you're referring to is typically because of the deformation of the sprocket holes on the film itself. Not because of deformation of the film frame. And 35mm would be just as subject to that as the 16mm film. For animation though, the jitter we notice typically comes for misalignment of frames (hence Toei/Pony Canyon having a visual example of how they were correcting it on the DragonBox website) during photography.

Positive master tends to be telecinated (exposed in the light and to air) many a time but once on negative master. In addition, normal DBOX footage isn't colour adjusted, but since you have to adjust colours when you print positive film or nega-telecinate, episode 73 to 80 can have the better colours than others' if their footage is nega-telecinated.

Again, I'm genuinely confused. You gave us an email before, from Toei themselves, that you construed as saying that Toei had mistreated the masters. So, you're now saying that applies only to the 16mm masters and not these (never mentioned before) 35mm masters?

Plus, this whole idea doesn't seem to make sense. Typically, the interpositive is kept in storage after the internegative master is made (the copy from which release prints are made). When the internegative is worn out, a new one is printed from the interpositive. However, again, since this was a television show it went "cels --> 16mm negative/'Generation Zero' --> 16mm interpositive/'Generation One' --> D2 tape/'Broadcast Master'." There was literally no need for an internegative, so one was probably never made.

The DragonBoxes, apparently, were made from a new interpositive printed from the Generation Zero footage (or that is the mostly likely explanation, given their marketing).

I'd love more support here for your information. I think it's interesting, but I do think a lot of it is speculation without firm grounding.

-Corey

[kei17]

Every old Japanese TV anime (until the end of the '70s) was recorded on 35mm and printed down to 16mm for broadcasting use. This is the fact I know.

Can you reference something? I just find it odd, since television stations don't get film reels. They get tapes. Typically, from what I've been told, it was "cels --> 16mm negative --> 16mm interpositive --> D2 tape." That's why we run into the problem of things the television stations do being horrid quality if included at all on a DVD release, because it's a tape master and not a film master.

Since I've got no enough time, I roughly answer this only. Well, TV stations did get film reels at that time. Toei Kagaku printed the 16mm masters for Fuji and every other local TV stations. Toei started using D2 tape master from GT. If they'd used D2 tape on DB and DBZ, the cinetape audio would have never been lost.

DBZ Episode 79, Fuji Television