Fighting system in B3.

[steveo]

As much as a great game that it is. This is one of the things it lacks in. Its a lot better than B2 as most of the characters have their own independent moves. But two buttons for attack is not enough. As a fighting fan, there should be more complex normal moves. Kinda like tekken based button system with your guard and Ki on the back of the pad.

Any other ideas on that?

[Mugenmidget]

Budokai prides itself on its simplicity. By retaining a simple control scheme it remains an easy to play game that a lot more people can pick up. Tekken has a similar following as well, but if you take the time to learn an ounce more than "button-mashing" in Tekken, you will probably most easily defeat a button-masher.

Budokai takes a lot more to "master" because of its simplicity. This creates a level playing field that only reserves the "elite" room for those who have some sort of "insane" understanding of it. This is not to say Budokai is harder to master than Tekken, for there's always going to be that really dedicated contestant who can do so much with a game.

The Budokai series has a depth to it, but probably not nearly as much as other fighting games. That's probably where most of the surprise comes from when people see FAQs or just recently videos outlining insane tactics once left for the birds.

So to sum it all up, Budokai is a "balanced" series on the whole, which is why you didn't see attack differentiation until now. DIMPS probably strives to keep the game equal so Goku fanboyism doesn't rule over a closet Yamcha fan. The balance isn't perfected, but it is comforting to know that just because someone has merely had the game longer doesn't mean they'll be better than you.

[steveo]

Budokai prides itself on its simplicity. By retaining a simple control scheme it remains an easy to play game that a lot more people can pick up. Tekken has a similar following as well, but if you take the time to learn an ounce more than "button-mashing" in Tekken, you will probably most easily defeat a button-masher.

Budokai takes a lot more to "master" because of its simplicity. This creates a level playing field that only reserves the "elite" room for those who have some sort of "insane" understanding of it. This is not to say Budokai is harder to master than Tekken, for there's always going to be that really dedicated contestant who can do so much with a game.

The Budokai series has a depth to it, but probably not nearly as much as other fighting games. That's probably where most of the surprise comes from when people see FAQs or just recently videos outlining insane tactics once left for the birds.

So to sum it all up, Budokai is a "balanced" series on the whole, which is why you didn't see attack differentiation until now. DIMPS probably strives to keep the game equal so Goku fanboyism doesn't rule over a closet Yamcha fan. The balance isn't perfected, but it is comforting to know that just because someone has merely had the game longer doesn't mean they'll be better than you.

Yes and no. As i do see your point, but it can go that little bit further by putting a bit more in the fighting system. When you got a 100%, there is little more you can do. I'm not saying that it should be as complex as tekken, but some more comlex moves. The fighting system is mainly combo's and is very limited as it only has two attack buttons. It's a fighting game, not a scrolling beat'em'up. Even though it's aimed at the fans, it should be aimed at the fans that are into complex fighting.

[VegettoEX]

It's not aimed at fans.

It's aimed at typical American fans who have their parents buy the game for them, who happen to be younger, and don't usually (can't?) put in the effort to learn even somewhat-deep fighting engines .

[Mugenmidget]

It's not aimed at fans.

It's aimed at typical American fans who have their parents buy the game for them, who happen to be younger, and don't usually (can't?) put in the effort to learn even somewhat-deep fighting engines .

I guess I fail to see what's wrong with simple games.

Well, but then again, if you ever paid the full retail price (huhuhu PS2ers), I guess there would be some disappointment in expecting some grand tour d'force of fighting bliss.

[VegettoEX]

I never said there was anything wrong with it (though the other guy's implied it). If anything, I like it better that way with this series, anyway.

[Mugenmidget]

I never said there was anything wrong with it (though the other guy's implied it). If anything, I like it better that way with this series, anyway.

Yeah it was more or less directed towards steveo.

But now that we've had all this "simple" gameplay with Budokai, perhaps a weird "mega collection" of the Butoden games is in order? Or maybe a new Butoden altogether? I'm sure many people would argue with me on the merits of that series, but I just love them to pieces.

[steveo]

It's not aimed at fans.

It's aimed at typical American fans who have their parents buy the game for them, who happen to be younger, and don't usually (can't?) put in the effort to learn even somewhat-deep fighting engines .

I said that wrong as i didn't mean just at fans. At the end of the day, there would be nothing unbeneficial to a more complex system. And i'm sure younger people will soon be able to get there heads around the system easy enough. I'm not knocking the game or anything as i think it's the best one yet. I'm sure you can agree.

[Mugenmidget]

It's not aimed at fans.

It's aimed at typical American fans who have their parents buy the game for them, who happen to be younger, and don't usually (can't?) put in the effort to learn even somewhat-deep fighting engines .

I said that wrong as i didn't mean just at fans. At the end of the day, there would be nothing unbeneficial to a more complex system. And i'm sure younger people will soon be able to get there heads around the system easy enough. I'm not knocking the game or anything as i think it's the best one yet. I'm sure you can agree.

Marketing doesn't like the sound of their demographic "getting to it soon enough." Marketing likes quick and easy deliverance of pleasure, bigger bucks are promised that way.

[Xyex]

Also, you're 'two buttons' arguement goes out the window as well. Ya, there's a punch and a kick to attack with but there's also toward/back punch/kick and when used at the right time it completely changes the flow of the attack and course of the combo. There's also transformations for guard breaks/juggles, basic Ki blasts can work as juggles too, plus teleporting and canceling. It's deeper than a lot of people give it credit for, and in my opinion, the perfect system.

And like EX and Mugen put it, this series isn't aimed at 'the fans'. It's aimed at the American audience (7 - 12 was their target with the show) and as such is made so that they can pick it up and play it and still win (now and then anyway, in 1 and 2 I almost always beat my cousin, haven't played him at 3 yet).

[Izlude]

Even after Budokai 3, I am up for another DBZ fighter, it just better be a 2D one or based off of Bukuu Tougeki's engine but with a lot more depth.

Arc System Works deserves another crack at it! I think the only great fighter DIMPS has made is The Rumble Fish, now that was a slick game...and the 2D sprites were insane in the way they moved...game still had its flaws though, its waaay too slow, like slower than Street Fighter 3 O_o

DIMPS needs a break from Budokai and make a sequal to the kickass Advance Adventure.

[Xyex]

Even after Budokai 3, I am up for another DBZ fighter, it just better be a 2D one...

Gah, no, no, no, no. You can't make a true DBZ game in only 2D. You need three dimensions.

or based off of Bukuu Tougeki's engine but with a lot more depth.

Hell no. If it's even remotely based on SSW it'll need more than depth to be even half as good as the Budokai games.

The only thing that needs 'fixed' for the next game is Dragon Rush. It needs more varriation. Other than that, so long as the next game is a full game and not a 3rd of one, it'll be great. ^^

[B-kun]

The only thing that needs 'fixed' for the next game is Dragon Rush. It needs more varriation. Other than that, so long as the next game is a full game and not a 3rd of one, it'll be great. ^^

That, and everyone needs Ultimates. *Was grumpy when he found out Goten and Trunks didn't have Ultimates*

[Xyex]

True. That would be nice. They should have made Raditz's 'watch the birdie' his ult instead of Dragon rush finisher. Of course, that falls under the 'not a 3rd of a game' thing.

[Mugenmidget]

People said Budokai's first installments lacked depth, and some continue to say so as this topic has shown us.

Therefore, while I do not believe Bukuu Tougeki/Supersonic Warriors is the end all be all Dragonball Z fighting game, it does show promise and should be given a sequel. If Budokai 3 at the very least managed to improve its review score, then I think Arc System Works could bring some things to the table that even anti-SSW people (hard to find them) like Xyex would appreciate.

And about a Dragonball Z game needed "3D," I hope that's as far as you go with that statement. I know you probably didn't mean this, but it could come across as if just making a game 3D automatically makes it better...which we know is not the case. I mean, Webfoot made a lot of "3D" games, and while their 2D fare isn't that great compared to most games, it certainly trounces their 3D efforts.

I think you're right in a sense that eventually companies will need to go 3D, but I believe the plunge is taken way too often when we haven't even had our fun with 2D yet.

But in all honesty, is Budokai really that 3D? Maybe with the new Dragon Universe flight mode map, but before it was basically just 2D with sidestep.

As far as graphics go, I'm sure there's no need to worry about a next-generation console hosting a sprite-based Dragonball game (although for me that'd be a guilty pleasure).

[Rocketman]

That, and everyone needs Ultimates. *Was grumpy when he found out Goten and Trunks didn't have Ultimates*

I kinda always figured the Gotenks Fusion was their ultimate...

And I am seriously happy that the Budokai series are as simple as they are.

PPPPE for a Kamehameha beats Up, Down, Downright, Right, Left, Upleft, E for a Kamehameha any day of the week.

[Izlude]

Even after Budokai 3, I am up for another DBZ fighter, it just better be a 2D one...

Gah, no, no, no, no. You can't make a true DBZ game in only 2D. You need three dimensions.

I mean using 2D graphics. The Budokai games may have 3D graphics, but they are played on a 2D field of fighting, and the sidestepping doesnt count. Well...maybe more like 2D.5, but there have been lots of great DBZ fighters out there that were 2D like Hyper Dimension and the insanely kickass Shin Butoden that were equally as fierce fighters and fan satisfying games on their own.

I'd love to see a DBZ game with super high resolution 2D sprites like those in Guilty Gear. Of course, I'm just saying that because I like 2D sprites more than 3D graphics, although the cel shading is nice at creating a somewhat fake 2D effect...

or based off of Bukuu Tougeki's engine but with a lot more depth.

Hell no. If it's even remotely based on SSW it'll need more than depth to be even half as good as the Budokai games.

Didnt you read what I just said? I said "with a lot more depth". It needs stuff like more attack buttons, more counter attacks, parries, some real grappling, sick jumps and flying, mid-air dashes, some actual variety in character special moves. Bukuu was pretty basic, but it played very fast. If the depth of Shin Butoden could be put together with the action of Budokai and speed of Bukuu, that would make for a tight game.

The only thing that needs 'fixed' for the next game is Dragon Rush. It needs more varriation.

I think the Dragon Rush needs to be scrapped, I don't like having scripted battle scenes and losing control over the fight, and I'm sure my oppenent feels the same way. Even if the scripted battle scenes had varriation in them, it won't make it a better playing experience, just a better viewing experience. The Dragon Rush is just way too overpowered and abused, and some characters can destory you with just one Dragon Rush.

To make things worse, even if your lucky to hit the right button to get out of the Dragon Rush, your still taking quite a bit of damage, theres no way to counter attack or prevent it, and if a character ends it with their ultimate, you cant do squat but twiddle your thumb sticks hoping it'll only do half the amount of damage it would normally do. Why cant you escape, deflect their ultimate or counter it?

Final Bout had the right idea with allowing you to counter the Meteo Attack with your own, and you had actions you could take when your oppenent launches a super attack - block it straight on, absorb it, deflect it or counter with your own, all it took was a bit of proper timing and it was really effective.

If its one thing Budokai 3 made up for though was the serious need for tweaks far as control and hit detection go, and the addition of being able to teleport and back dash was nice too, but theres still a lot of room for improvement for the fighting engine itself, namely in the defensive department. I doubt a Budokai 4 will see the day though, unless its just to cash in on all of the GT characters.

I also think the capsule thing needs to be ditched, who wants to load up several capsules of transformations and then one big bad move to end it all but will force you to spend most of the fight just trying to pull it off? Most of the other caps are useless as well. Budokai needs a lot of rehauling, but the 3rd time was way more charming than the 2nd.

PPPPE for a Kamehameha beats Up, Down, Downright, Right, Left, Upleft, E for a Kamehameha any day of the week.

I think Forward+E is a lot better XD. Looking at Goku punching 4 times from a half screens distance away then shooting a Kamehameha is just silly

Although, I'll take a FireBall Motion+Punch anyday...

[Xyex]

Even after Budokai 3, I am up for another DBZ fighter, it just better be a 2D one...

Gah, no, no, no, no. You can't make a true DBZ game in only 2D. You need three dimensions.

I mean using 2D graphics. The Budokai games may have 3D graphics, but they are played on a 2D field of fighting, and the sidestepping doesnt count. Well...maybe more like 2D.5, but there have been lots of great DBZ fighters out there that were 2D like Hyper Dimension and the insanely kickass Shin Butoden that were equally as fierce fighters and fan satisfying games on their own.

I'd love to see a DBZ game with super high resolution 2D sprites like those in Guilty Gear. Of course, I'm just saying that because I like 2D sprites more than 3D graphics, although the cel shading is nice at creating a somewhat fake 2D effect...

Flat 2D games are great, yes, much fun. I love Hyper Dimension and Super Butoden 2 (have yet the chance to play Shin Butoden.. ) but you just can't do DBZ as well in 2 dimensions. Even Hyper Dimension knew this, it had some 3D-ish elements. Being stuck on a flat 2D line is not conductive of fighting.

or based off of Bukuu Tougeki's engine but with a lot more depth.

Hell no. If it's even remotely based on SSW it'll need more than depth to be even half as good as the Budokai games.

Didnt you read what I just said? I said "with a lot more depth". It needs stuff like more attack buttons, more counter attacks, parries, some real grappling, sick jumps and flying, mid-air dashes, some actual variety in character special moves. Bukuu was pretty basic, but it played very fast. If the depth of Shin Butoden could be put together with the action of Budokai and speed of Bukuu, that would make for a tight game.

You missed what I was saying. I wasn't refering to depth anymore. I said it need more than depth. Better controls in general for one. I really don't feel like going into it though so I wont.

The only thing that needs 'fixed' for the next game is Dragon Rush. It needs more varriation.

I think the Dragon Rush needs to be scrapped, I don't like having scripted battle scenes and losing control over the fight, and I'm sure my oppenent feels the same way. Even if the scripted battle scenes had varriation in them, it won't make it a better playing experience, just a better viewing experience. The Dragon Rush is just way too overpowered and abused, and some characters can destory you with just one Dragon Rush.

To make things worse, even if your lucky to hit the right button to get out of the Dragon Rush, your still taking quite a bit of damage, theres no way to counter attack or prevent it, and if a character ends it with their ultimate, you cant do squat but twiddle your thumb sticks hoping it'll only do half the amount of damage it would normally do. Why cant you escape, deflect their ultimate or counter it?

Final Bout had the right idea with allowing you to counter the Meteo Attack with your own, and you had actions you could take when your oppenent launches a super attack - block it straight on, absorb it, deflect it or counter with your own, all it took was a bit of proper timing and it was really effective.

If its one thing Budokai 3 made up for though was the serious need for tweaks far as control and hit detection go, and the addition of being able to teleport and back dash was nice too, but theres still a lot of room for improvement for the fighting engine itself, namely in the defensive department. I doubt a Budokai 4 will see the day though, unless its just to cash in on all of the GT characters.

I also think the capsule thing needs to be ditched, who wants to load up several capsules of transformations and then one big bad move to end it all but will force you to spend most of the fight just trying to pull it off? Most of the other caps are useless as well. Budokai needs a lot of rehauling, but the 3rd time was way more charming than the 2nd.

Did you not read what I said? I said more varriation. That doesn't refer only to animation. Dragon Rush needs varried animations, yes, but there's more than that. Varraition in it's use would do it a world of good. My idea:

You enter Dragon Rush, input 3 buttons right from the start. If you counter on the first move they take damage and you do not. If you counter on the second you both take damage. If you count on the third only you take damage. If there's no counter at all and they have a Dragon Rush utlimate it starts.

Now, along the top and bottom (top for P1, bottom for P2) a bar shows up with buttons moving across it. Now it's timing based. You push the buttom moving across the screen as it reaches the little 'window'. the closer you are to being perfect the better. Now, which ever is closer for each push wins that 'phase' of it (6 in all). If they tie it's neutral. (phase discarded).

Now, here's how the results would go:
Defender win 6 Phases: Counter and damage opponent instead.
Defender win 5 Phases: Dodge completely, no more dmg.
Defender win 4 Phases: Deflect and take 1/10th dmg.
Defender win 3 Phases: Block and take 1/5th dmg.
Defender win 2 Phases: Block and take 1/2 dmg.
Defender win 1 Phase: Block and take 3/4 dmg.
Defender win 0 Phases: Direct hit, full dmg.
Defender tie with Attacker: Counter and attack nullifer each other, both take 1/2 dmg.

As for the Capsules, I only think one thing needs improved on that. Transformations shouldn't be capsules, they should part of the character like the grapples are now. Other than that, I like the capsule system. Seriously, other games where everyone is always the same moves and same skills and same strength and defensive ablity... it's the same every time A fights B. At least Budokai has some varriation.

PPPPE for a Kamehameha beats Up, Down, Downright, Right, Left, Upleft, E for a Kamehameha any day of the week.

I think Forward+E is a lot better XD. Looking at Goku punching 4 times from a half screens distance away then shooting a Kamehameha is just silly

Although, I'll take a FireBall Motion+Punch anyday...

Hate, hate, hate that down, down forward, forward, E system for specials. >_< GOD! Get some originality people! That was OLD and dull by Street Fighter 2! >_<

[Mugenmidget]

It's called QCF and I'll NEVER tire of it! Shoryukenz Hadokenz 4 LIFE!!!

[Izlude]

It's called QCF and I'll NEVER tire of it! Shoryukenz Hadokenz 4 LIFE!!!

Agreed! And it made for great chain combos too!