Kai Episode 47 (7 March 2010)

[Flamzeron]

The SS1 transformation that I was oh-so looking forward to was disappointing. The music was okay, but I think they should have used either Super Dragon Soul, or a new song entirely. It didn't feel as epic as the original Japanese version, or even the FUNimation dub.

Also, I honestly don't understand why whoever makes the show feels the need to lower Goku's voice when he yells as he goes SS1. Is that really necessary? I feel like it adds nothing to his transformation.

[Blue]

What the hell was up with the art for this scene... Gohan looked like a vampire

Quality animation in the Z anime!

[JulieYBM]

Here's a video upload of the scene (with a nifty description in the description box): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cFUdqb8l8Ug


Anyhow, yes: the scene is not a moment of 'badassery'. Freeza appeared out of nowhere and just up and kills Kuririn and almost does in Piccolo (or in our case we think he really did kill him). Gohan is told he will be next, and then suddenly something overcomes Son Gokû. It's suppose to be shocking, horrifying, tradgic, and chaotic all at once. That's what Dragon Ball Z captured, and what I don't think USDS would have.

[SSVegetto]

Here's a video upload of the scene (with a nifty description in the description box): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cFUdqb8l8Ug


Anyhow, yes: the scene is not a moment of 'badassery'. Freeza appeared out of nowhere and just up and kills Kuririn and almost does in Piccolo (or in our case we think he really did kill him). Gohan is told he will be next, and then suddenly something overcomes Son Gokû. It's suppose to be shocking, horrifying, tradgic, and chaotic all at once. That's what Dragon Ball Z captured, and what I don't think USDS would have.

Dude, what makes that moment badassery then? Are you literally defining this for us? It's an opinon dude. It's an opinion that some people think the moment it was a bad ass moment. If someone thinks that moment is a bad ass moment. That doesn't mean they are wrong. You are stating it like a fact.

No one even said that even. Metalwario64 just pulled that out of nowhere to rationalize an excuse to belittle someones opinion. That's like saying Dragonball sucks to begin with, so therefore if you liked any scene in DBZ better than Kai because of the musical track. It doesn't matter, because Dragonball sucks to begin with. It wasn't suppose to be good. It's a ludicrous argument. You are just saying it's not a big deal to begin with because you thought that scene wasn't that great anyways. So therefore even if DBZ BGM made the scene way better it still doesn't matter, because you guys aren't allowed to like that scene.

It's just an insane argument. It's like you guys will desperately defend Kai at the slightest complaint of a drop of the freaking hat. With the worst excuses ever. Goku's bruise, oh yeah, there is a scientific explanation for that. No there isn't they censored it. And here we have an argument that flat out states that the scene wasnt that great to begin with so no one can complain about Kai's scene for not liking the mood fit in there.

[JulieYBM]

Here's a video upload of the scene (with a nifty description in the description box): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cFUdqb8l8Ug


Anyhow, yes: the scene is not a moment of 'badassery'. Freeza appeared out of nowhere and just up and kills Kuririn and almost does in Piccolo (or in our case we think he really did kill him). Gohan is told he will be next, and then suddenly something overcomes Son Gokû. It's suppose to be shocking, horrifying, tradgic, and chaotic all at once. That's what Dragon Ball Z captured, and what I don't think USDS would have.

Dude, what makes that moment badassery then? Are you literally defining this for us? It's an opinon dude. It's an opinion that some people think the moment it was a bad ass moment. If someone thinks that moment is a bad ass moment. That doesn't mean they are wrong. You are stating it like a fact.

No one even said that even. Metalwario64 just pulled that out of nowhere to rationalize an excuse to belittle someones opinion. That's like saying Dragonball sucks to begin with, so therefore if you liked any scene in DBZ better than Kai because of the musical track. It doesn't matter, because Dragonball sucks to begin with. It wasn't suppose to be good. It's a ludicrous argument. You are just saying it's not a big deal to begin with because you thought that scene wasn't that great anyways. So therefore even if DBZ BGM made the scene way better it still doesn't matter, because you guys aren't allowed to like that scene.

It's just an insane argument. Geez, It's like you guys will desperately defend Kai at the slightest complaint of a drop of the freaking hat. With the worst excuses ever. Goku's bruise, oh yeah, there is a scientific explanation for that. No there isn't they censored it. And here we have an argument that flat out states that the scene wasnt that great to begin with so no one can complain about Kai's scene for not liking the mood fit in there. Freaking "A", it just drives me nutz.

I'm sorry, I'm not following the argument you are making. I've never asserted I feel Dragon Ball sucks. How the hell you got that out of my description of the transformation I don't know, but that's a you problem, not one with me.

Seriously, I'm defending Kai...from what? Your opinion? I described the scene and the emotional weight Dragon Ball Z's score captured (and Dragon Ball Kai's tried to with the choice of music it made). Tossing in Ultra Super Dragon Soul would've killed the tension quicker than the 1999 dub did.

[SSVegetto]

I'm sorry, I'm not following the argument you are making. I've never asserted I feel Dragon Ball sucks. How the hell you got that out of my description of the transformation I don't know, but that's a you problem, not one with me.

Seriously, I'm defending Kai...from what? Your opinion? I described the scene and the emotional weight Dragon Ball Z's score captured (and Dragon Ball Kai's tried to with the choice of music it made). Tossing in Ultra Super Dragon Soul would've killed the tension quicker than the 1999 dub did.

I never said you did say Dragonball Sucks, I just said that the argument used by MetalWario64 is insane. And I gave an example of it.

You simply confirmed what MetalWario64 said, that the scene was not bad ass. When in fact nobody even said that. And you are simply stating it like it is a fact just like he did.

He just made that up out of the blue to state any complain or anyone else's opinion on that scene is not valid because it's not bad ass to begin with. I just think it's a ludicrous argument.

I have no problems with your description of Kai or how you felt about it actually. It was just you stating that oh it's not bad ass like it's a fact. Reconfirming MetalWario64's insane counter argument.

[JulieYBM]

Then are you sure he wasn't just using the term 'badass' to describe what some would have thought the transformation was suppose to be? You toss in heavy rock music like USDS into a moment like that (sort of like how the dub through in whatever techno synth it did) you should expect a common description from somebody would be 'badass'.

[TheMajinRedComet]

I think it was about the same as the original, I was not suspecting to be surprised, either way Kuririn was going to die. So it is ok in my book. It is still dramatic.

[SSVegetto]

Then are you sure he wasn't just using the term 'badass' to describe what some would have thought the transformation was suppose to be? You toss in heavy rock music like USDS into a moment like that (sort of like how the dub through in whatever techno synth it did) you should expect a common description from somebody would be 'badass'.

I made a reply to him on page 2. That explains everything to him. I'm just stating his counter argument to the complaints just don't fly with me. That is all. And it all starts with someone saying that scene is not suppose to be bad ass like a fact.

[B]

I found it to be underwhelming. I think the track was far too fast and loud.

I thought I was watching Cowboy Bebop.

[MCDaveG]

With Yamamoto..... It's obvious that there is this much of music. HQ will point out some major scenes and pieces for you to do, and there you go on session with orchestra or few musicians in studio, the end. You will make about 1-2 seasons of music per sessions (Yeah, you have to compose that music first, for example at your home). For some movie, you will go on extra session to record whole new music for movie, which is later used in series....
But Kai's handicap is that there aren't any new movies, so you have to go only with music recorded for Saiyan and Freeza saga and wait for Androids.

[jjgp1112]

Wow, that was REALLY underwhelming.

[Kid Buu]

In Dragon Ball Z Freeza shoots a beam at Goku only for Piccolo to take the beam for him. In today's episode it looked as if Freeza was originally targeting Piccolo, which I am pretty sure is the way the manga intended it to be. Just wanted to point that out.

What are you talking about? The scene plays exactly as it did in Z, and Piccolo is clearly taking the bullet for Goku. But you are right in saying the manga had Freeza going for Piccolo.

Really? I am sorry then, I must have mis seen then. I could have sworn Kai fixed the scene.

[Flamzeron]

In Dragon Ball Z Freeza shoots a beam at Goku only for Piccolo to take the beam for him. In today's episode it looked as if Freeza was originally targeting Piccolo, which I am pretty sure is the way the manga intended it to be. Just wanted to point that out.

What are you talking about? The scene plays exactly as it did in Z, and Piccolo is clearly taking the bullet for Goku. But you are right in saying the manga had Freeza going for Piccolo.

Really? I am sorry then, I must have mis seen then. I could have sworn Kai fixed the scene.

It was probably best that they left the scene alone, since it shows that Piccolo is good now. Sure, he already showed the viewers that he was good when he protected Gohan from Nappa's blast back in the Saiyan saga, but he formed a bond with Gohan. Goku was once his enemy.

[Metalwario64]

When in fact nobody even said that.

Nobody in this thread did. But oh I've seen it mentioned many, many times (or even implied). Was it so wrong that I threw it out there?

And you are simply stating it like it is a fact just like he did.

Uh... If people were looking forward to, and wanting "Super Dragon Soul" to be played during that scene, then they don't know what it is that makes that scene. I'm not insinuating they are stupid or unintelligent about it like you seem to think I am.

The scene was very much in the same vein as it was in Z. If you just didn't like the song used, then that is fine, though the atmosphere and whatnot was very similar to the scene in Z. I knew that so many people would be saying "Kai ruined that scene" as soon as I saw that Super Dragon Soul was not used. It was especially obvious since the anticipation was so high that somebody had to announce that it specifically was not played in one of the first posts.

I'm not saying that *everyone* who didn't like the scene aren't entitled to, nor am I stating that *literally* everyone disappointed with it thinks it is supposed to be badass/epic awesomeness. For the latter I am referring to people who were disappointed that Super Dragon Soul was not used, when it is simply not a moment where it would be appropriate.

I am just glad that they didn't use that overused "chorus" piece that they used for every single death in Kai so far.

[Senzu_Bean]

I actually liked pretty much how Kai handled the scene. *Thumbs up!*

[Super Klonoa]

Agh, man. Talk about jumping the gun way too early and now it comes back to bite me in the ass. >_>;

Well, just so you guys know, I probably was that person who spreaded the word that "Super Dragon Soul" was going to be used for the SSJ transformation scene, when I first uploaded the song to YouTube. And now I've ended up disappointing everyone because they didn't use it for the scene at all.

While the track that they used for the SSJ scene wasn't all that bad, actually...I'm disappointed myself that they didn't use SDS. I mean, the song's intro was perfectly appropiate for it, from the anger buildup right down to the scream as the song kicks off.

Now that it missed its prime opportunity, I'm beginning to question whether there IS a Super Saiyan theme in the Kai Song Collection or not, as it was previously reported. Perhaps there never was, or maybe it's been canceled... *shrug* =/

[SSVegetto]

I'm not saying that *everyone* who didn't like the scene aren't entitled to, nor am I stating that *literally* everyone disappointed with it thinks it is supposed to be badass/epic awesomeness. For the latter I am referring to people who were disappointed that Super Dragon Soul was not used, when it is simply not a moment where it would be appropriate.

Yes, but you are stating that their complaints are less valid then yours because you are shoving an opinion down their throat by stating this:

That, and many people think it is supposed to be some "epic moment of badassery" when it definitely is not...

What if they think it is? Then they are wrong? A bad ass moment is just an opinion. So if I liked DBZ's Japanese BGM music on it. Because it made the scene look more bad ass. I'm wrong. If I liked the Funimation BGM scene because it was more bad ass than Kai's BGM. Then I am wrong. All because you are stating it like a fact.

So I can't say I thought that scene was ruined, because you are telling me for a fact that scene is not suppose to be a bad ass moment.

See this argument can't hold any water. You are defending that scene in Kai because you are stating it's not suppose to be bad ass anyways. Which kind of means it doesn't matter if it's good or not. Having better background music in it, having it sound and look better is a good thing. How the heck can you sit there and defend it being okay with that excuse? In fact, it's the worst argument I have ever seen.

People just give more credit to Kai then it's worth sadly. Its worthless. They just watch it because it's dragonball. And so it seems like it's immune to critisism. And if it gets critized, people will fine weak arguments to defend it.

Also I saw one other person on this very same section state that if we don't like the excess blood that DBZ had but Kai didn't then Dragonball isn't for us. Who is he to tell us that Dragonball is not for us? That wasn't you MetalWario64, that was someone else. But still. That is white knighting anything Dragonball related for the sake of Dragonball.

I wouldn't even bother to point this out. But this is the worst, the worst argument I have ever seen to defend the show. If you liked Kai for your own reasons, and you liked the scene and thought it fit. That's good, but to try to counter the argument of a complaint that someone else had with the weakest argument I have ever seen kind of proves my point. Which is why I'm getting the feeling that you guys think Kai should be immune to every critisim. Just for the sake of loving anything Dragonball related.

Actually, that argument, is almost equallly as bad this argument which is trying to find out scientifically why it would make sense for Goku to have a bruise in his stomach. That was obvious censorship. But people that white knight Kai come up with the most wildest excuses ever to actually try to justify that scene.

[Cold Skin]

Now that it missed its prime opportunity, I'm beginning to question whether there IS a Super Saiyan theme in the Kai Song Collection or not, as it was previously reported. Perhaps there never was, or maybe it's been canceled... *shrug* =/

Or perhaps it's being saved for later. The next episodes will be the epic fight between Goku and Freezer, with other scenes and lines that are well known to fans.

Also, there is about one chance on a thousand that it will be the case, but if the episode ends with Goku having just transformed, has anyone thought that the recap for the next episode could be showing the transformation scene again with a different music? It's not the first time a recap is not really a recap but a normal scene playing. Also, that would be Toei's shot at the "let's not disappoint fans who want the same mood than in DBZ for the scene itself, but let's fulfill other fans' wishes by using an alternate transformation score for the next recap".

However, it is almost impossible that this happen (that's what I would have done though). I don't think they ever used another music than the regular recap music for a recap to begin with, even when it was a regular scene playing. And then, would showing the transformation again be a proper recap in itself? Probably not. People need to have a proper recap to know about the failed attempt of the Genki Dama and Krilin's death, which is quite an important fact since Goku's transformation didn't come out of nowhere...

But there is still a chance Super Dragon Soul, if it really is the Super Saiyan theme, might be used in another upcoming scene from Super Saiyan Goku VS Freezer... I hope they use other insert songs in the future, cause given negative fan reactions, they might have said "okay, let's never use those songs from the Song Collection again", but let's hope it's not the case.

[Metalwario64]

Yes, but you are stating that their complaints are less valid then yours because you are shoving an opinion down their throat by stating this:

That, and many people think it is supposed to be some "epic moment of badassery" when it definitely is not...

You can think it is whatever you want to. If you think someone being infuriated by the loss of their best friend being murdered right in front of them is the epitome of badass, then go right ahead. What I am saying however, is that when it comes to music scoring, a scene like that doesn't need some super exciting rock track. That would be like playing Yeah! Break! Care! Break! when Piccolo sacrifices himself for Gohan. You can like it all you want, but that doesn't make it fitting or appropriate given the circumstances. You can like anything you want or think anything would be appropriate, but I'm speaking strictly in terms of professionalism.

What if they think it is?

Then... they think it is... But they also don't know how to properly score a soundtrack. Faulconer also had a decent idea about how the scene is supposed to be. His tune was a bit calmer than the Japanese track, but it at least captured some of the emotion of the moment. At least he knew not to compose some upbeat rock tune.

Then they are wrong?

I'm done here... I feel like I'm arguing politics again, but this session (thread) is closed. I had it.